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Mar 21, 2005

Comments

Darryl Pearce

Comforting words... even to a secular, free-thinking skeptic like me.

--Ventura County, CA

Sandals

The deuce is meant by that heap-burning-coals bit?

animus

The deuce is meant by that heap-burning-coals bit?

Paul is quoting Proverbs, which takes a less than pure-hearted approach: be generous to your enemies, it says, because this will really annoy them.

Fade

be generous to your enemies, it says, because this will really annoy them.

And boy does it. I remember as a child learning that there was no better way to drive my little sister absolutely wild with rage after we had an argument if I pretended we hadn't been fighting, and acted as sweetly and considerately to her as possible.

...granted, it's a bit passive-aggressive, but it's awfully satisfying, they can't really go complain to Mom that you're being too nice to them, and once in a while, it works out to actually smooth over the arguments. Not sure that's quite what Paul had in mind, though.

grannyinsanity

". In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

The story they tell around here is about the custom of poor men going around selling hot coals to start peoples fires, thus if you bless them with a way to earn their daily bread they will have the means to bless others.

Fred probably knows a lot more about this than I do, but that is what they say in my neck of the woods.

Adam

Just as a technical point - the divine right of kings wasn't really a mediaeval idea in the sense usually ascribed; it was more of a renaissance concept. Many of the mediaeval theologians (e.g. Aquinas) specifically discussed the way that power is constituted by the assent of the people, either the "group mind" or a significant and representative proportion of the people, and they also discussed the circumstances under which a king or prince could be deposed, which in context means killed (since there was no way of "voting him out"). I think Nicholas of Autrecourt said that a king ought not to be poisoned, but that was about it.

it_is_finished

We are not all children of Thomas Jefferson, whom was just a fallible man. If one takes the view that one is a child of a fallible man who is not one's father (and we all know that Jefferson was part and parcel of a horrific system of slavery), it is a short trip from there to believing that Napoleon or such is one's father, as is done in countries where religious liberty is forbidden. We are not all children of Martin Luther King Jr., who had four of his own children. We are children of God.

So what is authority? First of all, 13:1 says "Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established." And if God did not establish an authority, it is not authority but rather tyranny. God himself is the final arbiter and authority. Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. Christianity also holds that God established His church, an authority when in the hands of those just and merciful. Christianity is not unAmerican. With atheism fighting theocracy, I'm more concerned about whether America is unChristian. Scalia may be scouring the Bible for his rulings, but if he thinks God made him judge he is lost. One Terri Schiavo cannot be traded for one Maher Arar on Judgment Day.

drieux just drieux

p0: the 'heaping coals' notion comes from the much simpler approach, if one's enemy is in need of fire - then one should heap coals on the potshard that would be used to carry the fire back. For those who have read their national geographics I am sure they have seen the pictures of women carrying things on their head in so called '3rd world countries'. So it is one of those 'why not just take it as it is' - more of the same old do the right thing because it is RIGHT - not based upon who has asked for help.

IT IS NOT about doing a 'passive aggressive' thing.

p1: The problem with the NeoEvangelicals is that they are, as slacktivist notes in the next blog entry on 'he-said, she-said' journalism, facing the big crisis of faith about where they really want to make their stands. What do they really believe in, and how do they want to live out their 'so called faith'.

p2: This whole 'resistence to tyranny' idea that "it_is_finished" puts forward is such stiring martial rhetoric - but he might want to do a bit of homework about the church in the soviet empire prior to the fall of the Soviet Union. Were the christian churches there interested in the currently popular Roman 13 Argument??? HUM??? Were they trying to make grand 'martial rhetoric' about opposing tyranny??? And how does one oppose 'tyranny here' in America? Support the various "Pro Life" terrorist cells that have been engaged in armed resistence for over 30 decades now?

p3: there is a very popular meme making its round on the internet that the US supreme court already ruled that this is a 'christian nation' - which makes some of the NeoEvangelicals all warm and fuzzy.... baring the legal bits. So the fact that we do have the Supreme Court worrying about the problem of 'ceremonial deism' is fun and perchance the more dangerous threat to not only the 'atheistic' but more so to the actual 'true believers' who will not sell their souls merely to be politically popular.

p4: Folks will want to look at Wycliffe to look for some of the origins of the 'divine right of kings' - since at the center of that argument is whether or not the bishop of rome should be a temporal head of a 'government' or were their "states' rights" that offered a King certain levels of control in their own domain. At which point folks will want to do their work on John Hus and the Husserites who were pre-lutheran reformists who had been influenced by Wycliffe.

it is so good to see that some folks are willing to do their own homework.

Agitprop

Government derives its authority from God. -- Scalia

Does anyone else want to puke hearing a Supreme Court Justice spew this intellectual treason? God gave humans free will which means humans have the ability to rule themselves. Thus sovereignty, or self-rule, comes from God. Humans then enter the social contract and give up some of their individual sovereignty to a sovereign authority, i.e. government. The free will of the people is invested in this sovereign authority, not the will of God.

Scalia would be better suited to rule as a bishop in the Dark Ages when Church & State were the same thing. His medieval political views and his court opinions are slowly turning the United States into a theocracy. Jefferson is rolling in his grave right now.

it_is_finished

I did not intend martial rhetoric. Resistance need not be violent. God and Mars (Ares, the pagan god of war) have nothing in common. M.L. King certainly was able to oppose tyranny nonviolently despite a government which, once he came North and his demands challenged power relations beyond de jure segregation, did everything it could to paint his pacifist movement as one full of terrorist cells, to the point that it eventually provoked such splintering once the shepherd of the movement had been martyred by gunfire. Resistance to tyranny can include evading the draft, which was involuntary servitude, and the "backdoor draft", which is so. It can include giving a hunted refugee sanctuary. It can include feeding a person without shelter in an area where such people are excluded by law. It can include using the courts to save the life of an innocent person, as the fine students of Northwestern University Law School did in multiples several years ago. Much apology for the martial sound of my tone. War is monstrous and God is our shelter in times of trouble, even if we must hide in a cave from our enemy, as David did.

Jeremy Osner

Does Paul make any distinction between valid governments -- ones which have legitimately assumed the authority granted by God -- and despots or usurpers who are exerting an authority which God has not granted?

Brad DeLong

King viewed Romans 13 in context. Scalia does not. A lot of very scary sermons have been preached by people preaching on Romans 13 not-in-context...

I suppose I should backtrack, and say that Scalia's doctrines come "from Paul" understood as a short text ripped from context, and not "from Paul" understood as the teaching of the Apostle to the Gentiles...

John McDonagh

Actually, since Paul never met the human Jesus (you are basing your life on a man who only "met" Jesus in a hallucination on a road?) his ravings have no historical authority.

Martin Luther King, Jr. felt free to throw out the original sin, so he obviously did not care for Paul.

Scott

Does Paul make any distinction between valid governments -- ones which have legitimately assumed the authority granted by God -- and despots or usurpers who are exerting an authority which God has not granted?

Paul wrote this while being 'ruled' by an unelected Emperor who was persecuting Christians for not worshipping him as a god. The USA was formed in a rebellion against the much less despotic King George III, making the very existance of our "Christian Nation" a violation of a literal reading of Paul (or at least the literal reading conservatives favor when Republicans hold office).

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