L.B.: Lunch with Dad

Left Behind, pp. 236-237

The worst horrors of the Great Tribulation are yet to come. The sun will go dark and the seas will turn to blood. There will be earthquakes, famines, pestilence, Wormwood and giant locusts.

But none of that seems quite as awful as what poor Chloe Steele has to endure on page 36:

Over lunch [Rayford] told Chloe of his history with Hattie, such as it was.

Ew. Finding out your dad was unfaithful to your mom would be bad. Having to sit there, in a restaurant, while your dad presented a "history" of the affair would be much worse.

But as much as I pity poor Chloe, I wish LaHaye and Jenkins had let us hear some of what Rayford had to say. Based on Chloe's reaction, he didn't quite convey the picture we got earlier in the book of his warped, control-freak kinkiness:

She was silent a long time, and when she spoke her voice was weak. "So you never actually acted on it?" she said.

"Thankfully, no. I never would have been able to live with myself."

Rayford spares his daughter an account of the "private necking session he enjoyed at a company Christmas party" while his wife was nine months pregnant with her little brother. He was apparently able to live with himself for that one.

That "necking session" remains a strange detail (and not just because they call it a "necking session"). It seemed intended to round out the portrayal of Rayford as an unsaved sinner. But then the authors also seemed to share his casual, dismissive attitude toward that lapse and toward the woman involved.

Rayford's lunchtime confession could have been an excruciatingly funny scene, rather than just an excruciating one, if either the character or the authors had been capable of more honesty.

This is a bit of a stock comic story: the new convert's earnest confession that makes things worse. Almost every Christian can tell you such a story. So can everyone in Alcoholics Anonymous (in many ways, AA is just like Christianity, only more so). My Name Is Earl became a hit TV show by telling variations of such AA stories every week.

What makes such stories so wincingly funny is the disconnect between the new disciples' desperately earnest good intentions -- their desire to make amends for past wrongs -- and the trouble they cause by resurrecting those wrongs though their awkward, overly precise confessions.

Rayford's confession provides no laughs, only winces, because he doesn't seem to be guilelessly well-intentioned. He's still trying to defend himself, stressing that he never "acted on" his pseudo-affair with Hattie. That defense avoids the creepy truth, that Rayford seems to have gotten his rocks off precisely by never "acting on" the emotions he cultivated in Hattie. He wasn't looking for the act, he was looking for the ego-boost he got from creating and maintaining the ever-present, never-fulfilled, never explicit offer from Hattie. It wasn't about sex and it wasn't about love. It was about power. That much is made exquisitely clear in the first chapter of the book -- a kinky portrayal made all the creepier by the fact that it seems unintentional.

Chloe, understandably, segues into a discussion of her departed mother's devout faith. Thinking of her mother's "hopes and expectations" for her, Chloe says, shaped some of the decisions she made while she was away at college.

The authors surely have a bit of an agenda in telling us this. They want to commend devout parents, and to reassure them that they've been raising their kids well. There's certainly nothing wrong with that, and it seems right to suggest that such parents -- those who encourage and expect their children to choose virtue over vice, whose children know they are loved and prayed for -- would have a positive influence on their kids.

But this being the world of Left Behind, what passes for "devout" is a bit different than in a more normal context. Here saintly mothers don't just sit at home praying for their children, they also regularly harangue them with warnings of the apocalypse.

"I knew she was praying for me," Chloe says of her mother. "She told me every time she wrote." The next two lines are these:

"Did she also tell you about the end times, Chloe?"

"Sure. All the time."

This is a world in which mothers don't just urge their college-bound children to eat right, get enough sleep, keep up with their studies and avoid the party crowd. They also warn their children against the imminent One World Government, quiz them on the seven bowls and the seven seals, and offer words of encouragement about the birth of a red heifer. They do this "All the time."

So Chloe's mother never stopped telling her about the End Times. And her father is now detailing his creepy, years-long flirtation with a woman closer to her age than to his.

This might explain why Chloe went to Stanford and not Northwestern.

Comments

[Edo]

Because, you know, it's not adultery if you have a protracted necking session, so long as you don't look at her with lust in your heart, right?

(Woohoo! First-ish post!)

[the opoponax]

what's especially disturbing is that this is "confessed" not in a spirit of disclosure or a feeling that Chloe needs to know this information for the health of her relationship, but a combination of manipulative conversion and power trip. The thing with these control-based "she wanted me, i couldn't have cared less" situations is that it's only fun if you have someone to tell about it. All Ray's friends are either dead or saved. So he's forced to confide in his daughter.

Also, whose parents still WRITE TO THEM when they're off at college? i left home in '96, and aside from the occasional birthday card, we talked on the phone.

Maybe Irene sent her Chick tracts?

oh and one more thing. the last thing an unsaved person, especially a rebellious teenager, wants to hear, is that they're being "prayed for" by someone who considers themselves saved, especially if that person is in a position of authority. it's passive aggressive shorthand for, "i really disapprove of how you've chosen to live your life, and i pray everyday that you come around to my way of seeing things". i've rarely heard the expression in any sort of genuine way in that situation.

[ako]

Yeah, most atheists and agnostics I've met tend to hate, "I'll pray for you," in that context, at least. It feels very much like someone threatening to put a curse on you; more laughable than threatening, but insulting because it expresses what they wish they could do to you. There's usually a subtext of, "I'm willing to use anything, including supernatural force to MAKE you think like me." It's popular end for people who attempt conversions over the internet.

I could see Irene putting that at the end of every letter, though. With exactly that tone, too. Especially if Chloe has that habit of asking the complicated questions about divine justice and mercy that she gets to ask before she converts.

Maybe that's why they never call each other anymore. Too many conversations like this:

"How can you still not accept Christ? Didn't you read that book I sent you?"

"Yeah, Mom. I read it. I just wasn't persuaded."

"Not persuaded? This is the TRUTH!"

"But if God's so loving, why does he send people to hell for not worshiping him?"

"I'll pray for you." Click.

[cjmr]

My parents and I wrote back and forth when I was in college (late 80s/early 90s). By the time I'd graduated, my Dad and I had switched to email, but Mom didn't have email yet. That was back in the day when 25¢-a-minute was cheap for long distance, so a 12-minute phone call ate up one hour of my earnings at my minimum wage job.

[toxicfur]

In the early 90s, my grandmother, who I adored, sent me a letter every week with $20 in it. So it could happen.

I do have a slightly off-topic question for the agnostics/atheists, though (my religious beliefs are complicated, so I might be in the agnostic category myself, but here goes). I attend an Anglo-Catholic church (the extremely high kind), and one of my favorite bits of ritual is to light candles for people - my mom (who has terminal cancer), for instance. On some occasions, when friends or close acquaintances tell me of an exceedingly rough patch, I ask if it's okay to light a candle for them. I don't tell them I'm praying for them; I don't talk about my religious beliefs. But it seems wrong to simply light a candle for a Muslim friend who had a seriously complicated pregnancy. Or an atheist friend whose daughter was beaten outside of her apartment. Is it rude to ask? Ruder still to assume that I should light candles for people?

[Alexela]

I start by confessing that I haven't actually read the book. But from the description here, I'll take another devil's advocate unpopular stance (because it worked out so wel last time [sigh]).

Maybe Rayford wasn't being totally defensive/sneaky/revisionist when he said that he didn't "do anything" with Hattie because he couldn't have lived with himself. Maybe he would have liked to sleep with her(man attracted to nubile young woman - not a new story), but had enough scruples in the final analysis not to. After a few runs through this approach/avoidance conflict, maybe, yes, he was feeling good/attractive/ego-gratified because he could still hook a pretty thing, but he might not have been AWARE that's what he was doing. I bet he would react with heartfelt denial if so accused.

So, not that he wasn't knowingly lying to his daughter, but thought he was telling the truth. Seems like a plausible story. Those of you who've read it can now disabuse me of this notion ;)

[New Duane]

This is a world in which mothers don't just urge their college-bound children to eat right, get enough sleep, keep up with their studies and avoid the party crowd. They also warn their children against the imminent One World Government, quiz them on the seven bowls and the seven seals, and offer words of encouragement about the birth of a red heifer. They do this "All the time."

I have one of those Hattie moms and she never warns about the "end times" because we are already there! She does constantly invite me to attend whatever New Hope Village Church her and my dad are currently involved with because going to church is the big 'ol fundie fix-it-all.

When I refuse her invitations she starts in with the kids, constantly asking to take them to church, until I finally have to get rude and say, "I don't want my kids indoctrinated with that crap."

Now we barely speak. They are so involved with THAT LIFESTYLE we literally have no commonality from which to build a relationship. And thats the real tragedy of this PMD bullshit. It would be no different if, for instance, I spent all my time involved in an online fantasy world.

All of it is just building great big castles of nothingness.

[New Duane]

I ask if it's okay to light a candle for them. I don't tell them I'm praying for them; I don't talk about my religious beliefs. But it seems wrong to simply light a candle for a Muslim friend who had a seriously complicated pregnancy. Or an atheist friend whose daughter was beaten outside of her apartment. Is it rude to ask? Ruder still to assume that I should light candles for people?

I'm sorry you feel like magical rituals are they only way you can help folks. I'm going to pray for you.

[Lucia]

I would hope that a good mother wouldn't just sit at home praying for her children -- that she would be talking to them about moral behavior, and also showing it. In L&Jland what you do seems not to matter at all. What did Irene do when she wasn't with her Secret Decoder Bible study group, or praying alone for extra credit?

[cjmr]

Thinking about this scene some more, it occurred to me that it combines two of the teenager's/young adult's absolutely least favorite conversations to have with a parent. We start off with discussing (in far too much detail) the sexual peccadillos of the parent, and then segue into discussing the child's spiritual life. I think if either of my parents had combined both of those topics into one hour-long lunch, I'd have felt the overwhelming urge to nip out afterwards and walk in front of a bus.

-----

I start by confessing that I haven't actually read the book.

That's okay. Fred reads it so we don't have to...

[Mabus]

You know, Duane, it's far from unusual to encounter a situation where there really is nothing you can do to help a person. Under those circumstances, surely it's not so terribly absurd to hope for supernatural assistance.

[Angelika]

most atheists and agnostics I've met tend to hate, "I'll pray for you," in that context, at least.

People's tastes are obviously very different. I can't remember being offended by a simple assurance of good will like 'I'll pray for you'. If someone tells me, he/she is going to pray for me, I assume that they care for me, even though we might disagree about certain things. And I generally trust, that the prayer being directed to someone who I assume has a much better insight in the topic than both of the discussing parties the result will be beneficial in any case.

In a context of a mother-daughter relationship, there is not much harm done in letting the daughter know, that the mother is praying for her. There are a thousand reasons why a loving mother would pray for her college-going daughter from being safe on her way home after study-group to not catching the flu, among those many things she might pray, that her daughter get's saved, but heck why not? If the mother considers being saved essential for her daughter's wellbeing, it's natural she brings it up and she prays for it. I remember quite distinctively, how annoying it is for a teenager to have disagreeing opinions on what would be a wholesome approach to life. For years, my mom wanted me to give up dieting, even though I considered myself way to fat - and having someone commenting on how much you eat every day, can be extremely annoying. But, nevertheless, I also managed to consider her worries as a sign of her love and knew pretty well, that she didn't bring up the topic to dominate me.

And then, how bad is it, if a mother talks frequently about the end of the world? Almost everyone I know has his/her favorite topics and pet silly ideas that come up one way or another almost every day. Admittedly, sometimes that's annoying but mostly I scribe it off as a cute little flaw and just let it rush by my ears. A bright girl in college age should definitively be mature enough to do just that.

[Constantine]

This might explain why Chloe went to Stanford and not Northwestern.

Brilliant observation, Fred. The great part of your LB commentary is that you are able to make inferences about the inner lives of the characters from their actions in the book that the authors were no doubt too clueless to write intentionally.

Incidently, have you read the excerpts of what is shaping up to be "Left Behind" for the warblogger crowd, Orson Scott Card's Empire?

[New Duane]

You know, Duane, it's far from unusual to encounter a situation where there really is nothing you can do to help a person. Under those circumstances, surely it's not so terribly absurd to hope for supernatural assistance.

Ah yes, and the only way to effect supernatural assistance is some sort of magickal ritual like lighting a candle, or offering words to spirits or perhaps even drawing a circle in animal's blood, standing in the middle of it and wishing really hard.

*cue the spooky music*

[Alexela]

toxicfur:

It depends. The more hostile/defensive/uncomfortable they are about religion, and the less secure your understanding is with them, the softer you would have to peddle the request.
Personally I have very little history of people trying to force belief on me, so at worst your request would be harmlessly flaky, and at best, a sincere expression of concern, if one delivered in a quirky but charming idiom.

Other people have a lot more baggage. For them "I'll pray for you" has been used as a passive-aggressive shorthand for "gee, if you're too dumb to see the truth, I'll just have to look after everything for you... again." People who have been through this might need a lot more gentle reassurance that you're not trying to push anything, but it's a gesture that is meaningful to you, and you'd be honoured if they'd let you make it on their behalf.

[ohiolibrarian]

I ask if it's okay to light a candle for them. I don't tell them I'm praying for them; I don't talk about my religious beliefs. But it seems wrong to simply light a candle for a Muslim friend who had a seriously complicated pregnancy. Or an atheist friend whose daughter was beaten outside of her apartment. Is it rude to ask? Ruder still to assume that I should light candles for people?

Does everyone you talk to know that lighting a candle is like petitioning God on behalf of your friend?

As I see it, specific religious activities like lighting a candle or praying for someone are somehow more active expressions of good-will than just "wishing someone well" or "good luck" or "hope everything is fine" or whatever non-religious statement might be used. That's why they are attractive, but what exactly are you doing for the person in trouble?

For some people, the praying and religious expressions often seem like proselytizing or disapproval or officiousness. I would suggest just saying "Is there anything I can do to help?" and doing it if asked (they may even ask you to pray) rather than unilaterally taking over others' spiritual life.

[Bugmaster]

@toxicfur:

I agree with Alexla (representing the atheist crowd here). I personally don't mind what rituals other people conduct in my honor, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone (myself included). However, the phrase "I will pray for you" is usually used to mean, "You are a godless atheist condemned to burn for all eternity, but you're too stupid and/or Satanically inclined to realize it, so I'll pray for you, you pathetic bastard". Thus, while actually praying for atheists is ok, telling them that you'll pray for them can be interpreted as an insult.

@Mabus:

Under those circumstances, surely it's not so terribly absurd to hope for supernatural assistance.

No, it's still absurd. If supernatural forces don't exist, then appealing to them is useless regardless of your personal circumstances -- unless you expect these entities to pop into existence just because you happen to want them to exist at the moment.

[Rivikah]

Well it seems pretty obvious to me...
To these authors, actually having sex with Hattie would have been a sin much worse than stringing her along in some kind of warped power trip.

If he'd ever acted on it then they would have had to find another main character as he would have been completely irredeemable.

[David]

Incidently, have you read the excerpts of what is shaping up to be "Left Behind" for the warblogger crowd, Orson Scott Card's Empire?

*Whimper*... why did you have to post that?! I haven't read any of Card's books in quite a while, so I hadn't realized he'd gotten that bad... what happened? He used to be a reliably fun storyteller, even when he wasn't at the top of his game, but it seems like he sort of went crazy at some point...

[Angelika]

However, the phrase "I will pray for you" is usually used to mean, "You are a godless atheist condemned to burn for all eternity, but you're too stupid and/or Satanically inclined to realize it, so I'll pray for you, you pathetic bastard".

Could it be that you guys are just a little bit oversensitized? - I know a lot of christians who repeatedly pray for non-christian family members, friends, and acquaintances (and I do so myself, if I happen to remember). I have them heard to express sadness, that a person they care for is disinclined to become a Christian. I never though heard any Christian calling a person they were praying for a 'pathetic bastard' or any other derogatory epithet.

To my experience it is very hard to pray for a person and in the same time to despise the person. Actually, it is a good way, if I feel I need to improve my attitude towards someone to pray seriously for that person's wellbeing - I always end up feeling much kinder.

[bulbul]

Alexela,

Maybe Rayford wasn't being totally defensive/sneaky/revisionist
I'm not sure what you mean by "sneaky". And who said anything about revisionist? We are never told about whom he had that "private necking session" with, but it definitely wasn't Hattie. Ergo, there was nothing in their past that needed revising. And yes, he is defensive, I would even say boastful. The whole thing is supposed to show what a sinner Rayford was (thinking of other women with his fully loaded boeing 707 on autopilot), but instead, it shows what a prick he is and what a bunch of assholes his creators are.
Now I don't harbor any negative feelings towards you which is why I won't be telling you to go and read the previous chapters. But you might go check out a comprehensive overview of the relationship between Rayford and Hattie.

[New Duane]

what a sinner Rayford was (thinking of other women with his fully loaded boeing 707 on autopilot)

Man, that is sexy!

[New Duane]

To my experience it is very hard to pray for a person and in the same time to despise the person. Actually, it is a good way, if I feel I need to improve my attitude towards someone to pray seriously for that person's wellbeing - I always end up feeling much kinder.

So if I pray for you will I stop despising you for treating others as if they are a pawn in your cosmic chess game with God?

[Alexela]

bugmaster If supernatural forces don't exist, then appealing to them is useless regardless of your personal circumstances -- unless you expect these entities to pop into existence just because you happen to want them to exist at the moment.

well yes, but many human endeavours are absurd if you think about them disappsionately enough. Why climb a mountain? Why fall in love? Why write poetry? Why drink hot chocolate on a cold night, rather than hot water and vitamin pills? There's lots of things we do that don't make any sense in a strictly logical way. It's part of the beauty of being human. If some people want to add "belieiving deeply in potentially fictional entities" to that list, then that is not only their prerogative, but something that probably makes them better people to boot. There's many roads to being a better person.

Sub point: The people we're rude about aren't the ones who take on the sweeping challenge, they're the ones who brag about it, or mess it about. L&J are to Christianity as the morons are to Everest, who pay a guide to haul them halfway up, then have a big party and leave toxic crap strewn over the beautiful landscape. But if people take on faith sincerely, and with a sense of humility (towards their self and fellow humans, and not just God), then who am I, or you, bugmaster, or even you New Duane, to make fun of them for it?

[Mabus]

Bugmaster, I suppose that depends on what precisely you believe about the likelihood of such beings existing. I suppose someone who is absolutely certain that no such beings exist would consider it absurd under any circumstances. I don't recall if you're such a person. Even then, still seems to me like a nice, well-meaning gesture under most circumstances (obviously not the "I want to convert you" circumstances). If you're simply not sure whether supernatural beings exist, can't hurt to go looking for them, other than perhaps wasting a little time.

[bulbul]

Angelika,

Could it be that you guys are just a little bit oversensitized?
Well, for now I'm going with "no". You see, I think we don't mind someone praying for us. What we mind, however, is the people who do the praying telling us that they do it. Why do they tell us? Why not stick to the words of Matthew 6:5? The only reasonable conclusion is the one Bugmaster has already reached: they are showing us their moral and spiritual superiority. Whether you say it like this or use Bugmaster's words, it all comes down the same.

...I always end up feeling much kinder.
Coz the important thing is how YOU feel, right?

[bulbul]

You know, since you've already turned this thread into a debate on prayer, I'm gonna indulge in one of my secret passions and go all prescriptivist on your collective asses:

my grandmother, who I adored
WHOM I adored. WHOM. Object. A direct one, nonetheless.
WHOM.

[New Duane]

But if people take on faith sincerely, and with a sense of humility (towards their self and fellow humans, and not just God), then who am I, or you, bugmaster, or even you New Duane, to make fun of them for it?

So it upside-down-land, its perfectly acceptable to invoke fantasmical dieties to assist others and brag about your relationship with said dieties but it's completely beyond the limits of acceptable discourse to point out no one's there and nothing just happened?

[cjmr]

I knew you had to have a little 'prescriptivist' in you somewhere, bulbul.

[toxicfur]

to bulbul: WHOM I adored. WHOM. Object. A direct one, nonetheless.
I'm a sociolinguist. I believe in language change, and "whom" is going, going, gone, except to pedants, and except in highly formal and ritualized writing (as in, "to whom it may concern").

to the others who've responded:
I didn't mean to imply that lighting a candle is the only thing I do, or offer to do. My friend with the difficult pregnancy could've lost the fetus (and could have had potentially life-threatening complications). I carried things for her, offered to bring her groceries when she was confined to bed rest, offered whatever else I could. When it came down to it, though, there was nothing anybody could do for her, except hope for the best. I offered a candle as a concrete manifestation of my hope. I don't light candles in lieu of "doing something," and I certainly hope that my lighting candles implies that I expect someone else to accept whatever beliefs I have. I take off my shoes in my friend's house (a Muslim custom) - I don't think she's trying to convert me. But that's why I'm asking - would someone I'm reasonably close to see my request to do something magical as rude or dismissive? (By the way, I do not pray for people's souls. Everyone finds a path that works, and there's more than one way to truth - in the Platonic sense of truth).

[cjmr]

Deities! It's deities! (sorry, now it's my turn to go all prescriptivist)

[New Duane]

Deities! It's deities! (sorry, now it's my turn to go all prescriptivist)

Whatfuckever. My editor has the night off.

[wintermute]

Mabus: I think that, even if you accept that supernatural entities might exist, and be amenable to helping you out, It's pretty pointless to try to ask for their help unless you have some idea of how to do so. Should you write out your request on a piece of red paper, and tie it to a prayer wheel? Sacrifice a black rooster while burning gunpowder? Leave out a plate of milk and cookies for the little people? Eat hallucinogenic mushrooms and ask them directly?

Why is one method to be preferred over others?

[1982_Cygni]

Okay, let's pretend I'm Chloe.

1. My dad is an incurious, often drunk, fellow who has NEVER answered my questions, big ("If pagans are wrong and going to hell, then why do all the religions have so much in common?" "Why did God send a Son to Earth and not a daughter?") or small ("Why is the sky blue?" "Why did God wipe out the dinosaurs?"). And I've suspected for sometime he's had an affair with at least one of the pretty young things half his age on his flights. How could you not be tempted, especially on flights to say, Japan or Sweden? I figured it out when I was twelve and he was very friendly in his warped sort of way with that Filipina stewardess...Anyway, you'd never suspect Dad would act like this because he seems to be fond of sex only to make babies. Preferably boy babies.

2. Mom is obsessive-compulsive (I think), especially about religion. She utterly hates science, art, anything not having to do with her rigid end-times perspective. I went planting trees at the Superfund site for volunteer work once with my friends and had fun, and Mom rants on and on about how it won't matter because Jesus will dissolve the Earth in fire and come to save the virtuous. She shrieks on the frequent occasions I bring home books by Ursula K. LeGuin, Octavia Butler, or even Madeleine L'Engle (even though I am 99.9999% sure L'Engle is Christian). She probably is so uber-Christian she believes The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is sacriligeous because it portrays Jesus as an animal among pagan creatures [see http://www.capalert.com/capreports/chroniclesofnarnia-lww.htm for an actual worldview like this]. I happen to be very fond of that book.

3. My little brother is some carbon-based entity that resembles a human but has no personality I can discern. (This is based on sample dialogue from the film in IMDB: Chloe Steele: Turn that up.
Raymie Steele: Mom said to turn it down.
Chloe Steele: You always do what you're told?
Raymie Steele: Yeah, you should try it sometime.) And he believes everything Mom says!!!!

If I were Chloe, I wouldn't just be alienated from the family. I'd go right up to the feminist, possibly lesbian prof in the English department, or that cool ponytailed Jewish physics prof who looks an awful lot like Jeff Goldblum, or the hippie-turned-farmer-turned-botany prof I happen to be very fond of, or that interracial married couple in the Asian Studies department, and BEG them to adopt me as an adult. ESPECIALLY after the Rapture leaves me stuck with Born-Again-at-the-Most-Awkward-Time-Possible-in-the-Most-Awkward-Way-Possible Dad.

See why I feel so damn sorry for that poor girl and her incompetent creators?

[bulbul]

I knew you had to have a little 'prescriptivist' in you somewhere, bulbul.
With the band camp incident mentioned elsewhere and this, you now know most of my dark secrets.

I believe in language change, and "whom" is going, going, gone, except to pedants
Point taken :o)

Why is one method to be preferred over others?
You actually answered it yourself: tradition. Had you been born a Mansi hunter, you'd probably go on a trip to find the spirits and talk to them.

[Alexela]

New Duane: So it upside-down-land, its perfectly acceptable to invoke fantasmical dieties to assist others and brag about your relationship with said dieties but it's completely beyond the limits of acceptable discourse to point out no one's there and nothing just happened?

Lots of things there, have to break them down.
1) Ist it ok to invoke fantastical deities? Yep, sure, why not.
2) Is it ok to brag about relationship with them? Nope, bragging is obnoxious, and non-humble. That's right there in my orginal rant.
3) Are we allowed to point out no-one's there? I'm really glad you asked that. It depends how you do it. If you do it out of a smug sense of "see, I'm smarter than you, I can see it's all a hoax you big dummy", then that puts you at one with the person who says "I'm going to pray for you", with the latent meaning "You're too dumb to figure out God's own truth, so I'll have to do the interceding for you." Both people are being obnoxious.

So can you express doubt? Of course. I do it all the time. Can you pray for someone else? Sure, why not, it's mighty nice of you. The problem on both sides is tagging along a connotation of "I'm right and you're wrong, silly person," and then acting all huffy when the other person gets upset.

[ericblair]

Is it rude to ask? Ruder still to assume that I should light candles for people?

As an atheist, I'd take it as a kind gesture, as long as it wasn't intended as the I'll-make-God-make-you-see-the-light kind of thing, which it's obviously not intended to be.

As a related issue, though, what's supposed to be the intent of intercessionary prayer? I'm not trying to be facetious, but you can't expect an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god to suddenly say "well, now that you put it THAT way, I will cure your friend." It's sort of an outgrowth of theodicy, but if it was the right, good thing to happen, God should know about it and act on it without any intervention from us lowly people.

[Erick Oppeen]

My own take on "I'll pray for you" depends heavily on who says it, and the tone. Depending on these, it can either come across as a nice gesture that makes the person offering it feel better and does me no harm, or "you dirty little sinner, you're too lost to know you're lost, but I'll pray for you anyway, even though you don't deserve it---so there!"

[catholic_girl]

What did Irene do when she wasn't with her Secret Decoder Bible study group, or praying alone for extra credit?

Baked cookies and embroidered frilly knickknacks, of course.

As a former agnostic whose previously fundy mother was always saying she'd pray for me, I can confirm that it drove me nuts. It still kind of bothers me -- echoes of adolescent trauma or something -- even though I'm a Christian now. And some people who say it don't mean it kindly.

[New Duane]

The problem on both sides is tagging along a connotation of "I'm right and you're wrong, silly person," and then acting all huffy when the other person gets upset.

No, the problem isn't with both sides. If folks could simply keep their religious beliefs to themselves, it would never be necessary for us to point out their behaviour is boorish and rude.

But evangelicals are "commanded" to piss people off, so this is what you get.

[New Duane]

2) Is it ok to brag about relationship with them? Nope, bragging is obnoxious, and non-humble. That's right there in my orginal rant.

Don't you see that "I'll Pray For You" is nothing more than simple hubris? What could represent braggadocio better than saying "I've got a direct line to God and I'll see if he can do this favor" (for something good) or "I'm going to get you in trouble with my Friend, The Most Powerful Deity In The Universe" (for persuasion)?

It is also the believer's way of putting the target of intercession at the mercy of the intercessary. Wait, did everything turn out okay with that little problem you were having? Well, the whole church was praying for you so that must have helped. Hey, why don't you come to church this Sunday.......

Pretty soon, yer giving 10% up, voting Republican and sandbagging others with the prayer scam.

[Robert]

Another atheist chiming in on the "I'll pray for you thing."

It all depends on tone and context. Depending on the person saying it I have one of two reactions.

A) "Up yours too, buddy."
B) "Sure, why not."

A) Is for those more Godly than thou, who use "I'll pray for you" as an insult. It may not sound like one, but neither do "How nice." and "Bless your heart." Anyone who has spent time in the American South can tell you what those can mean.

B) Is for the sincere folk who care and believe. It can't actually hurt anything, it makes them feel better and who knows? I might be wrong.

[Robert]

Just an additional note. I'm equal opportunity when it comes to live and let live with the faithful. The most persistent people I know who insist on praying for me are neo-pagans. Without doing controlled experiments it doesn't seem to be doing any good, but it keeps them happy.

[Bugmaster]

@Alexla:

well yes, but many human endeavours are absurd if you think about them disappsionately enough. Why climb a mountain? Why fall in love? Why write poetry? Why drink hot chocolate on a cold night, rather than hot water and vitamin pills? There's lots of things we do that don't make any sense in a strictly logical way.

All right, in that case I'd correct my statement. It is not absurd to pray to supernatural entities if that makes you feel good, but it is absurd to pray to them and expect some sort of result; it is even more absurd to plan your life around the results of your prayer (note, though, that virtually no one does this nowadays). Using your analogy, it is not absurd to climb Mount Everest, but it is absurd to climb Mount Everest in order to retrieve the giant pot of gold on top, despite having no evidence whatsoever of its existence.

Note, though, that the above does not apply to people who have faith. They don't have any doubts and they don't care about evidence; they know that pot of gold exists. They are more sure of its existence than of the existence of the Sun. Thus, it makes perfect sense for them to climb the mountain, and we cannot describe their actions as "absurd" (probably futile, yes, but not absurd).

Which brings me to Mabus:

@Mabus:

Bugmaster, I suppose that depends on what precisely you believe about the likelihood of such beings existing. I suppose someone who is absolutely certain that no such beings exist would consider it absurd under any circumstances. I don't recall if you're such a person. Even then, still seems to me like a nice, well-meaning gesture under most circumstances (obviously not the "I want to convert you" circumstances). If you're simply not sure whether supernatural beings exist, can't hurt to go looking for them, other than perhaps wasting a little time.

Let's just say that I am very, very, incredibly unsure that supernatural entities of any kind exist. I am almost (but not completely) sure that they do not exist. In this case, it doesn't make sense for me to go out looking for them, because I could be doing anything else -- such as combing my local beach for plutonium, or something -- and have a higher chance of success. Of course, if someone presents me with credible evidence for the spiritual entities, I will become more sure of their existence, but this hasn't happened yet.

However, you are right in saying that there's no harm done when other people pray for me. As you said, it's a nice gesture, and I'll take it in the spirit that it was given. I imagine that a Christian would feel the same way if I gave him my favorite Physics book for his birthday, or something.

[Bugmaster]

@1982_Cygni:

Lol ! That was one of the funniest pieces of literary analysis I've ever read. I can just imagine Chloe's mom walking into a library, looking at shelves after shelves of Heinlein, Ursula LeGuin, J.K.Rowling, C.S.Lewis, and for some reason Dr.Seuss... then bursting into flames on the spot.

[wintermute]

> The problem on both sides is tagging along a connotation of "I'm right and you're wrong, silly person," and then acting all huffy when the other person gets upset.

Yeah, it would be terrible to point out that someone isn't really possessed by the ghost of a trillion-year-dead alien criminal.

[toxicfur]

to Robert: "How nice." and "Bless your heart." Anyone who has spent time in the American South can tell you what those can mean.
I grew up in the South (I escaped fortunately, to the bluest of the blue states), and I know exactly what you mean. I sincerely do not want to convey the religious equivalent of "Bless your heart." I also have no desire to a) invite someone to church; b) convert them (to what? I'm not always sure what I believe); or c) make them at all uncomfortable. I would never say "I'll pray for you," because of the evangelicals who tried to convince me that their praying for me would take away my attraction to members of the same sex (just as an example).

I don't know what intercessory prayer is for. The lighting of a candle for me is a concrete ritual - I don't know if it does or doesn't "do" anything - but it's something to do in the face of the impossible. It's also a way to tell people that in the face of the impossible, I care. At least, I hope that's the message they receive - it's the one I'm attempting to offer. And, of course, there are some people I wouldn't offer it to, and if someone said "no thank you," I also would respect that and perhaps bring flowers or chocolates or something instead.

[cjmr's husband]

@wintermute:

Was that a Scientology reference, are did you just finish watching this week's Doctor Who?

[wintermute]

Scientology. I don't get Dr Who here, and I'm not all that taken with the new guy, anyway, from what I've seen.

But Scientology is generally my go-to-religion for laugh-out-loud ridiculously stupid beliefs.

[Alexela]

New Duane: No, the problem isn't with both sides. If folks could simply keep their religious beliefs to themselves, it would never be necessary for us to point out their behaviour is boorish and rude.

"The law in its magnificent equanimity bans rich man as well as poor from sleeping under bridges and begging for change." Thing is it's NOT equal. Atheists don't have something they believe that they can NOT talk about. If you or I were in a time of stress, we wouldn't try to support each other by saying "Wow, that's really shitty. Well, at least there isn't a God."
Nobody here is in favour of anybody forcing any viewpoint down anybody elses throat. But for heavens sakes, we're all grown up, can't we embrace a few differences in each other. If I was sick, and Toxicfur brought my chicken soup to make me feel better, I might not believe it had any medicinal effect, but I'd be grateful for the sentiment. If he/she wanted to pray for me, then I don't think that would have any effect either, but I can understand the nice effort being made.... ESPECIALLY, if he/she asked me first if it was ok to do so. That would explicitly acknowledge that I can refuse if I'm uncomfortable with it. I don't see how there's any possible breach of ethics or politeness there.

ND: But evangelicals are "commanded" to piss people off, so this is what you get.

yeah, I don't think any of us here like the evangelicals form of ecclesiastic predation... Find people at their weakest, promise them money, bliss, what have you, and keep pushing it whether they want you to or not. Nasty stuff. Let's not paint all christians this colour.

ND: Don't you see that "I'll Pray For You" is nothing more than simple hubris?

the way Benny Hinn does it? Yes, absolutely. But the way a lot of Christians see it (so I understand), is it's more like a child asking their father for something. They don't expect dad to jump to attention and do whatever it is, but it IS kind of nice to be polite and ask nicely.