Teetotalist gift shops

Following up on the discussion of "Christian fiction" in the comments to this post ...

Question: What do the following books have in common?

• Jayber Crow; Godric; The Emperor of Ocean Park; The Man Who Was Thursday; Teaching a Stone to Talk; Crime and Punishment; The Bishop and the Missing L Train; Monsignor Quixote; A Prayer for Owen Meany; WLT: A Radio Romance; Traveling Mercies; While I Was Gone; A Good Man Is Hard to Find; The Thanatos Syndrome; Anna Karenina; Saint Maybe; Brideshead Revisited

Answer: You won't find any of them on the shelves of a "Christian bookstore."

That's a bit odd, isn't it? You expect the selection in any niche bookstore to be limited by the scope of it's particular niche, but it's strange when so many books that would seem to be part of that niche are still excluded.

Imagine walking into something called a "Mystery Bookstore" and not finding anything by Agatha Christie, Raymond Chandler or Ross MacDonald. So you ask at the counter and the clerk says, "I'm sorry, we don't carry those. This is a mystery bookstore and we only carry mysteries"

You try again -- "Yes but these are ..." -- but it doesn't get you anywhere. The store simply isn't using the word "mystery" in the usual accepted way. That word, for them, apparently means something else.

That's exactly the sort of experience you would have if you walked into a "Christian bookstore" assuming that either of those words was being applied in the usual accepted way. These words, here, are not meant to mean what they usually mean.

Your first hint of this will be the fact that books are a rather small fraction of the inventory in this "bookstore." You'll see row upon row of Precious Moments figurines and all manner of gadgets for God, but far fewer actual books than the word "bookstore" might have led you to expect. You'll soon recognize this general selection as a kind of inventory you have seen before and you'll realize that despite their use of the word "bookstore," it's really a gift shop, one with the same ratio of books, cards and knick-knackery as you would find in a Hallmark store or in the gift shops found in airports and highway rest stops.

OK then, by "bookstore," they mean "gift shop." What do they mean by "Christian"?

One possibility is that they're using this word to signify only a particular subset within its broader religious meaning -- that by "Christian" what they really mean is "evangelical Christian." That would help to explain why some of the books above -- those by authors such as Flannery O'Connor or Walker Percy -- are nowhere to be found. Such authors may be "Christian," but they are not evangelical Christians, and so their books are not carried by the gift shop.

That is part of the explanation, I think, but it only leads to a trickier question, one that is notoriously difficult to answer: How do we define "evangelical"?

This seems like a religious question -- a matter of doctrine, creed and theology. But the apparent meaning of these apparently religious terms is the heart of the confusion here. The word "evangelical" -- like the adjective "Christian" as applied to this gift shop -- is not religious, it's cultural.

This is why attempts to come up with a doctrinal definition of "evangelical" are so notoriously misleading. A former colleague of mine expressed this point succinctly when explaining why the Dutch Reformed -- a conservative Protestant group that might seem to fit any such doctrinal definition -- were not evangelicals. "We drink beer," he said.

That distinction isn't wholly adequate as a definition of "evangelical," but because it is cultural and not strictly religious, it comes closer to the mark than does any attempt at a doctrinal/theological definition.

Remind me to return to this point as I want to attempt to offer a functional, cultural definition of "evangelical" -- one that can account for why so-called Christian bookstores don't carry most Christian books. (We'll also need to explore how a beer-guzzling Oxford don became an evangelical icon.)

For now let me just say that in the case of such bookstores, that word "Christian" -- I do not think it means what you think it means.

Update & P.S.: For the record, Berry, Buechner, Carter, Chesterton, Dillard, Dostoevsky, Greeley, Greene, Irving, Keillor, Lamott, Miller, O'Connor, Percy, Tolstoy, Tyler and Waugh.

Comments

What bothered me when I visited a local Christian Bookstore was that they had three walls of bibles (probably 20% of the entire store), but 90% were the same three translations -- NIV, KJV, and Schofield. There was a small section of "other translations", which did not include the Oxford English Bible, Good News Bible, RSV, NRSV, or the New Jeruselem bible.

[hapax]

"90% were the same three translations -- NIV, KJV, and Schofield"

And you'll never see translations into languages other than English, let alone the Latin, Greek, or Hebrew sources for those translations.

[sophia8]

It's all about censorship. After all, censorship is becoming America's favorite past-time. The US gov't (and their corporate friends), already detain protesters, ban books like "America Deceived" America Deceived (book) from Amazon and Wikipedia, and fire 21-year tenured, BYU physics professor Steven Jones because he proved explosives, thermite in particular, took down the WTC buildings.
It isn't about censorship. And you're a troll.

[Shannon]

Traveling Mercies is probably my favorite book ever. It's completely shameful that it's not in a Christian bookstore, because it's amazing testimony to a life in faith.

>We'll also need to explore how a beer-guzzling Oxford don became an evangelical icon.

Especially since he was converted through the strong influence of a Catholic and became Anglican himself, which many evangelicals might think is a bit sketchy as a church (especially with those female pastors!). Strange, isn't it? But I had no idea that reading his non-fiction was overly-intellectual for evangelicals. A bunch of my evangelical friends have read Mere Christianity at least. But I come from a thinking-sort-of-bunch, I guess.

>Also, it's one of those areas where evangelicals consider themselves superior to Catholics (who cede some spiritual authority to the Pope) yet what they do in practice is just the same, only worse -- they cede spiritual authority to the loudest and most hateful idiot with a TV program.

I would argue some of the evangelical churches are more anti-intellectual than the Catholic ones. Even the ones that aren't anti, are not exactly pro-intellectual either. I go to a pretty intellectual evangelical Anglican church in Oxford, but they rarely quote from Biblical scholars and we don't discuss the background of theology in our small group. On the other hand, I attend a very scholarly Catholic group that is mainly discussions about complex theology, including challenges to it. For example, we're reading commentaries/explanations on Aquinas right now. As for ceding spiritual authority to the Pope...I honestly think he has far less sway over most Catholics than the hardcore fundamentalist preachers do.

[Angelika]

VorJack I always wanted to go in and say something like,"Yeah, my supply od Christians is running low. Could you get me, like, five Catholics and a half dozen mixed protestants?"

I did that once in a 'Second Hand Children Store', asking the shop keeper how much the cute baby by the door would cost. It took her a while to get the joke. (The mother of the baby thought the whole situation very funny, though.)

[Daniel M. Laenker]

There's a small chain of "Christian" "bookstores" in the Virginia Beach area that refer to themselves as "religious supply" stores, which I often thought was a fascinating definition of religion.

[Chip]

My favorite "Christian" bookstore is Hearts and Minds in Dallastown, PA.

"Welcome to a bookstore which attempts to create a new space for serious, reflective readers. Unabashedly Christian, we are often told that we are different than most religious bookstores. Our name, we trust, gives a good first clue to what we are about. What distinguishes us most is our enthusiasm for the development of a uniquely Christian worldview where Christ’s Lordship is honored and lived out in relevant ways in the midst of our highly secularized, post-modern culture. We offer quality books for the sake of faithful Christian living. We serve business folk, scientists, artists, college students, moms, dads (and kids!), pastors, poets and politicos. We believe Biblical faith leads to "thinking Christianly" about every area of life.

[bulbul]

Re: Daniel,

has anybody seen Friday's episode of Law and Order? It featured a Ted Haggard-inspired murder suspect and a church with a CEO and a merchandising division.

[Hames]

There's only one Christian bookshop in the city where I live, and I've found it useful for books of daily readings, things like that. They do a few gifts, mainly prayer cards and those fish you stick to cars. The last time I went in there, though, the woman behind the counter had a rather long rant about how Catholics were wrong and couldn't possibly get into Heaven. I'm now a little wary of going in, in case she realises I'm Catholic and tries to make me change my ways.
Although in my defence, the Catholic Society at my university did organise a very successful cheese and wine night, so we can't be all bad.

[Evan]

Re "gadgets for God"--a good friend of mine, once, observing a photograph of someone's collection of cheap christian-themed knickknackery, said, "Holy crap!" And ever since, that's been my preferred term for it.

[B-W]

Briefly, I should note that there are a good many of us who consider ourselves "Evangelicals," but who are just as offended at the right-wing Christian culture described in this post as you are. Even more, perhaps, since we're offended that the good name "evangelical" seems to have been hijacked by these right-wingers in the popular understanding of the term.

[Mnemosyne]

I confess, the first time I walked in there (it's in the vestibule, directly adjacent to the transept) I was moved to exclaim in a too-loud voice, "My temple should be a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves!"

At least when they built the Our Lady of the Angels Cathedral here in Los Angeles (aka the "Taj Mahony," nicknamed after our cardinal), they put the gift shop in a separate building on the other side of the courtyard.

It's a pretty nice little shop, too -- about half books, half Roman Catholic/Christian tchotckes.

[Amanda]

B-W, you have a friend in the proprietor of this blog.

[A. Kennedy]

Especially since he was converted through the strong influence of a Catholic and became Anglican himself, which many evangelicals might think is a bit sketchy as a church (especially with those female pastors!).

Please, please, lady, not female, and priests, not pastors.

Ironically, I think that my priest (a lady) would have far, far less of a problem being called a "female pastor" than I have hearing it. Of course, she is a priest, and I merely a fairly detestable sinner, so there you go.

[A. Kennedy]

Although in my defence, the Catholic Society at my university did organise a very successful cheese and wine night, so we can't be all bad.

Catholics, like Anglicans, know that it is often relevant to ask "What would cheeses do?"

er... that should be "What cheeses will do?"

[Fade]

teaching materials, little kiddy knick-knacks, Bible cases, hiliter sets

I read the last as "hitler sets" the first time through. What frightens me is that I twigged to something wrong not because it seemed out of place, but because I couldn't imagine what a "hitler set" would be. A little kit with a paste-on mustache and clip-on swastika, like the pirate/cop/knight dressup sets? A collection of inspirational speeches?

On a slightly different note: I used to wander through Christian bookstores in the mall to mock the bad art (Kinkade attack! Ceramic Jesus playing soccer! Aiiii!). Quietly and privately, but I found it amusing. One time when I went in with a friend, who happened to be neither Christian nor with a Christian background, and quickly found that while I was mocking the cheap sentimental junk with insipid sayings, he was mocking the religious stuff for being religious. I stopped doing it, after that. It hit a little close to home. And much as I still think a lot of that junk is, well, junk, if someone else finds inspiration in it, that's probably no sillier than the inspiration I find in the little rubber goldfish sitting on top of my computer speakers.

[Paul Schofield]

I would have to invite you to visit York, England. There are some bookstores that are Christian, but not in your face about it. One of them we went into thinking it was a general second hand bookshop (one of about eight on that street), only to find a whole upper floor dedicated to old, leatherbound theological tomes. The range of books they had was astounding, even if the lower floor was a little light on overall content.

The fact that, even as an atheist, I found it a refreshing change from the normal Christian shops I have been to is not a good sign.

[Kirala]

Let Cornerstone Books in Boone, NC go down as a pleasant surprise in the Christian "bookstore" department. Okay, there is a certain giftshop ratio, but I found a book entitled From Homer to Harry Potter: A Handbook to Myth and Fantasy which is interested in discussing myth and fantasy, but intellectually and positively.

...You know, my standards for Christian bookstores may have lowered.

[movablenu]

"I think that all that needs to be said about the Christian store (I don't even know if it bothers with the "book" part) at the local mall is that it carries a print of The Most Horrible Painting Ever
http://www.watsonswildlife.com/images3/praying_for_peace_RDF.jpg"

One of my greatest triumphs as a Christian bookstore gnome was to unwrap a shipment of a dozen copies of the book "Praying with the Presidents", which has that hideous picture on the front, take it out of the box, put it back in another box and send it back to the publishers. Our shelves remained unsullied.

[stinger]

A. Kennedy: So, is the other kind called "gentlemen priests"?

[A. Kennedy]

A. Kennedy: So, is the other kind called "gentlemen priests"?

Oh, very much so. You wouldn't call someone a "man priest" would you? That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. To my terribly sensitive ears, "woman priest" sounds like an insult... this is more cultural than anything else, of course, since when I was growing up, the words "that woman" or "that man" said in the right tone had the very distinct connotation that the individual being described was no lady or no gentleman, as the case may be.

I'm well aware that people use "woman priest" without intending it to be an insult. I'd just prefer to hear "lady." Actually, my comment was more in fun, since we in the Anglican church tend to call our priests priests, rather than pastors (although, of course, they are also pastors (though whether they are shepherds or goatherds is, of course, the great question).

[A. Kennedy]

Er... looking back, I see that the term used was female pastors... which sounds even more insulting to my naive ears. I'd hate for my absolutely lovely priest to be called a "female" (although, again, I stress that she'd probably have no problem with it... she is astoundingly peaceful, almost preternaturally so).

[stinger]

I suppose my query harked back to an earlier day, when hereabouts there were doctors and, occasionally, "lady doctors". Later, "woman doctor" became acceptable; however, one never spoke of "man doctors", much less "gentleman doctors", but only "male doctors". The counterpart of male is female, not lady or woman. (I suspect "female" in the medical arena carried the connotation of "female problems".)

The concept of "woman" and "female" (and "man") having the type of negative connotations you describe is familiar to me only through reading British literature, not through usage in this region (midwestern US).

[stinger]

If the genders must be distinguished, "male priest" and "female priest" sound, to my ear, both perfectly polite and grammatically correct. May I ask from whence you hail, A?

[stinger]

Maybe the difference lies in using "female" as a stand-alone noun, rather than an adjective. I can see how the former would sound rude. Sorry to go on about it.... Stopping now.

[A. Kennedy]

No, no, please do go on. It's excellent stuff. I'm actually from Canada, in Edmonton, Alberta (there are a lot of Albertans here, for whatever reason! -- actually, we're all trapped inside because of the cold right at the moment). I don't know if it's a local thing that using "female" and "male" sounds so rude to me... actually, I'm fairly sure it isn't, because people here seem just as comfortable with it as you.

I'd just rather refer to "ladies and gentlemen," because it sounds nicer. It says to me, "alright, I take you as gentlefolk, and I give to you all the dignity that implies. You're more than just gendered human beings to me... you are, in a way, lords and ladies."

Just my (probably fairly loony) opinion, however. But I'd rather live in a world where everyone's a lord and lady than one where we are just gender-units. (NOT, of course, that you are trying to say that, at all).

[A. Kennedy]

er... I suppose I should say "a world where everyone's a lord OR a lady" A world where everyone's a lord AND a lady would be confusing and rather dull.

[A. Kennedy]

I have a friend, Professor Gordon-Craig, who would just smash me for my poor language use, if indeed he smashed people, which he does not, except, of course, with his rather considerable wit.

[mcc]

Okay, so here's a question that I'm not quite brave enough to find out the answer to on my own:

Were I to walk into a Christian Science Reading Room, what would I find?

[inge]

Evan, I call the "gadgets for god" "Devotionalien" (devotional objects?) but I use the same word for all fan articles. In a small city I occasionally visit, one and the same shop might sell images of saints, images of Marx and images of popular soccer players, so the equation basically hops up and down and yells "notice me!".

[Jesurgislac]

A Kennedy: You wouldn't call someone a "man priest" would you? That's exactly the point I'm trying to make.

No, you wouldn't, because, as for so many ungendered nouns, male is assumed to be the default.

(There is a joke/lateral thinking puzzle, the first one on this page, which demonstrates this rather neatly - and rather depressingly. People come up with so many answers rather than the obvious.)

In the days when being a priest of the Church of England was a standard career for a "younger son" - army, law, or church, while the oldest boy inherited everything - people might well refer to a "gentleman priest", making the distinction between "younger son" priests, who'd gone into the church as a respectable, comfortable occupation, requiring of them to preach only a sermon or two on Sunday, and the mass of priests who were not gentlemen's sons.

With ungendered nouns the distinction is usually made for the unusual, and lady - while it has appropriate uses - is generally used to trivialize someone's occupation. "So, you're the lady priest?" has negative implications even over "So, you're a priest - I don't hold with women getting ordained, you know."

er... I suppose I should say "a world where everyone's a lord OR a lady" A world where everyone's a lord AND a lady would be confusing and rather dull.

There we differ. I think a world where everyone's a lord or a lady would be really kind of pointless and probably full of bling, but a world where everyone's a lord AND a lady would be entertaining, at least. (Besides, I see no reason why one can't be both a hlafweard and a hlæfdige... ;-)

[Tehanu]

There's a small chain of "Christian" "bookstores" in the Virginia Beach area that refer to themselves as "religious supply" stores, which I often thought was a fascinating definition of religion.

Posted by: Daniel M. Laenker | Feb 11, 2007 at 04:53 PM

In 1993 in Orange County (California) I saw a sign for "Christian Supplies." I've always regretted not stopping to find out exactly what Christian supplies are.

[A Texan in Bavaria]

There's a store in my Central Texas hometown named LifeWays - it bills itself as a "Christian Lifestyle Store," which is a bit more accurate than calling itself a bookstore. They have TV commercials and seem to be a chain.

[Ray]

A Kennedy's priest?

(lady and gentleman sound extremely fogeyish, to my ears - more often used in jest)

[Richard Hershberger]

To my ear, "lady priest" sounds stilted and almost comical. "Female priest" is unexceptional, in a context where specifying the priest's sex is relevant. If it is not relevant to the discussion, then merely "priest".

I find it interesting that "priestess" is never used in this context. It would solve the problem nicely, but I suppose it has an air of Earth-mother worship about it.

I have never come across the distinction of "gentleman priest" being the younger son of a gentleman. Back in the day, CofE priests were by definition gentlemen, regardless of who their fathers were. Of course who their fathers were would matter a lot for how good a living they held, but that is another discussion.

[Corbie]

B-W: "Briefly, I should note that there are a good many of us who consider ourselves "Evangelicals," but who are just as offended at the right-wing Christian culture described in this post as you are. Even more, perhaps, since we're offended that the good name "evangelical" seems to have been hijacked by these right-wingers in the popular understanding of the term."

Back when I was still attending Truro (late 80s, when I was in college), a new guy showed up at the young adults group -- he admitted to sometimes voting for Democrats, and after people tried convincing him of the error of his ways, he was socially shunned. I think he eventually found a different church to go to.

So, if the word "evangelical" has been hijacked by the right-wingers, it's because the religious right has hijacked the evangelical movement in the U.S.

[the opoponax]

late to the party, but:

"'Adult bookstore' also uses "bookstore" as 'gift shop'."

this is not so much a statement on the literary-ness or lack thereof of your average porn hound, and more a statement on the ways that traditional expressions for things (especially euphemisms) die hard. 'adult book store' is in the same league as 'package store' for liquor store and interestingly enough 'icebox' for fridge.

back in the day before glossy porno mags and videos, a Rabbit for every truly liberated woman, edible crotchless panties for valentine's day, etc. etc. these sorts of stores did in fact carry mainly "dirty books". now the only people publishing erotic/pornographic fiction are mainly more high-falutin', and you probably won't find much of their stuff at XXX Adult Bookstore out on the backroads of Podunk, Arkansas. which means that most of what such places carry is in fact porn and novelties.

funny, as a kid i mentally pictured the adult bookstore in my town full of thick dusty tomes on tax law and other boring things grownups seemed to worry a lot about.

[Shannon]

>Ironically, I think that my priest (a lady) would have far, far less of a problem being called a "female pastor" than I have hearing it. Of course, she is a priest, and I merely a fairly detestable sinner, so there you go.

>With ungendered nouns the distinction is usually made for the unusual, and lady - while it has appropriate uses - is generally used to trivialize someone's occupation.

That's specifically why I said "female," as opposed to "lady." Lady seemed very trivial to me, while female seemed more neutral. Also, most evangelical churches don't have priests, so they probably wouldn't call a female leader of a church a priest whether or not she was one. I also didn't use priest because my Anglican church doesn't really use the word so I wasn't sure what the actual use of it was. The main leaders of my church are a rector and a vicar. The rest of the leadership team is labeled as various types of pastors. Perhaps someone can enlighten me here? Plus, one doesn't have to be a full priest to hold a major leadership position, and some really conservative evangelicals oppose women holding any church leadership positions.

[Ray]

'package store' is a new one on me.
They should really have called themselves 'wine stores', and evangelicals caught coming out could explain that they only went in to look for some unfermented grape juice.

[the opoponax]

also, i see no syntactic or semantic issue with "Christian Supplies" or "Religious Supplies".

i guess, of course, that it makes more sense in a catholic context or that of other denominations with a high "smells and bells" factor. there's the teensy white "first communion" bible. the cross necklace given to a girl at her confirmation (is there a counterpart for guys?). advent wreaths and calendars, scapulars and rosaries, prayer cards, saint candles and sculptures, bibles, study guides, sunday school lesson books, Books of Common Prayer, a few theological texts, hymnals and those big crazy bookmarks made for them, religious sheet music for organists, etc. etc. and of course a small amount of general gifts with religious iconography -- holiday cards that mention religion, non-devotional religious jewelry. Supplies that one needs to practice their religion properly, and a few gift items.

in fact, this is pretty much what one finds upon entrance to a Judaica shop (i mean, you know, the jewish counterparts -- hagadahs, menorahs, yarmulkes, star of david jewelry...), and also what one finds in a Hindu puja supply store. even many occult stores hew to this sales model if there are expected to be actual pagan/wiccan/thelemic/whatever practitioners around.

[Ray]

I think, in the UK, Anglicans call the head priest in a church the vicar.
See http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/vicarofdibley/

[the opoponax]

oh, wait, i also wanted to say that this, however, doesn't make any sense for evangelical protestantism, however, where part of the doctrine is that such things should be shied away from. we don't need "stuff" to make our worship real or to get us closer to god.

unless someone wants to sell us stuff. in which case such items are a major element of devotion...

[James]

There are odd exceptions.

Toronto used to have the SCM Bookstore, which had started out very much as a leftish Christian store run by the Student Christian Movement (they carried an SCM songbook which had social gospel songs mixed with Joe Hill). It eventually turned into a general-purpose bookstore with a good theology section, and closed maybe fifteen years ago.

The Anglican Book Store in Toronto, which was similar in nature to the National Cathedral store -- lots of holy hardware (crucifixes, vestments, sets of Stations, portable communion sets, and yes, the term is fairly standard, at least among Anglo-Catholics, in referring to such things) as well as books and cards -- is closing down and becoming just an internet site. It was pretty broad-spectrum in its books, but had a good set of theology and biblical criticism (although I was once stymied when I wanted to buy an ordination present for somebody and could find no Lonergan -- a Toronto fixture, after all -- or Scotus, which were the first two autors I was looking for).

I used to irritate people in Christian bookstores by going in and asking for St. Theresa of Avila's Interior Life, which, of course, they'd never heard of.

[the opoponax]

as far as priest, rector, vicar, pastor, etc.

in my understanding, having shuttled back and forth between Episcopal and Methodist churches as a kid (and in a catholic-influenced part of the US), it goes like this.

the people who are ordained and preach/lead services are either priests, ministers, or pastors, depending on the leanings of the congregation. my Episcopal church tended to use priest and minister interchangeably. the Methodist ones mainly went with minister, except for my grandparents relatively fundie-oriented one which went with pastor. "minister" will probably suffice in most American mainline protestant situations.

a rector is the head minister. i think otherwise known as a vicar in the UK, but i don't think the American Episcopal church goes with that at all. i never heard that term used, even at the bigger Episcopal church that actually had multiple ministers and was more into the high anglican pomp and circumstance.

a deacon is a non-ordained church leader who mostly deals with administrative stuff. a lay minister is like a deacon, except they often deal with certain aspects of ministry that one doesn't have to be ordained to deal with (youth programs, visiting sick people, etc.). you also have various ranks of altar servers, acolytes, crucifers, etc. who assist with the actual church service.

any of these people, in the Episcopal church, can be of either gender (or none/other, i guess). "female"/"lady"/"woman" should not be used, unless the conversation calls for you to identify the gender of the person. i.e. it should be used interchangeably with something like "brown-haired" or "tall". and in such a case, "female" sounds the most correct to my ear, though i guess there are regional differences.

ok, i think we're squared away.

[A. Kennedy]

aaaaah! Argh, argh, argh!

Here I was having what (to me) sounded like a perfectly pleasant conversation about whether one should use "female" or "lady," and indeed not labelling anyone as particularly "wrong," just talking about my own inclinations, and I wind up feeling like I'm being labelled a sexist!

Look, I'm not saying it's right to call a lady priest a "lady priest" and a gentleman priest a "gentleman priest" in situations where you aren't concerned with their gender. Of course, that's absurd. To point out that a priest is a lady or gentleman is completely beside the point, which is "are they a good priest." My priest is excellent, absolutely wonderful. I simply used "lady priest" in contrast to "female priest" because to me, "female priest" sounds insulting. Too much leaning on physical sex, not enough on the dignity of the position. People who use "female" all the time sound (to me) like they have gender anger issues or A Point To Make (regardless of whether they hate women or men). It is quite, quite possible to call ladies "ladies" and be a very egregious chauvinist, but that's not me, I assure you.

[the opoponax]

oh yeah. and ordained catholic leaders of masses are generally priests and never pastors or ministers. though there also exist different sorts of ranks similar to the episcopal minister/rector/bishop hierarchy.

catholic priests always being male, of course. unless one is referring to the tiny number of women who've been illegally ordained and do not lead services at any legitimate catholic church that i'm aware of. in which case "female priest" might actually be meaningful.

[A. Kennedy]

But thank you, by the way, to the large number of people who pointed out to me that you shouldn't point out someone's gender in their job title unless that specifically is the subject of discussion. I had not realised that, since I was raised by wolves.

Sorry, the sarcasm was unnecessary. But, come on! I'm not an idiot.

[A. Kennedy]

But thank you, by the way, to the large number of people who pointed out to me that you shouldn't point out someone's gender in their job title unless that specifically is the subject of discussion. I had not realised that, since I was raised by wolves.

Sorry, the sarcasm was unnecessary. But, come on! I'm not an idiot.

[the opoponax]

I simply used "lady priest" in contrast to "female priest" because to me, "female priest" sounds insulting. Too much leaning on physical sex, not enough on the dignity of the position. People who use "female" all the time sound (to me) like they have gender anger issues or A Point To Make (regardless of whether they hate women or men).

geez, chill, it's ok!

i understood what you were trying to say. i was just clarifying that this is what we're referring to. because, yes, there are some people who are stuck in 1935 and will refer to "lady doctors", "lady lawyers", etc. not that i assumed you were one of those, but seeing as this is the internet, one never knows. especially since there are people who still use "secretary" about... (joke)

i actually prefer "female" as the adjective, and "woman" as the noun. so to me, it sounds more correct to say "the female minister with the green vestments on baptized my daughter" or "that woman in the green vestments baptized my daughter". not for any political reason, it just sounds more natural. this probably has to do with regional or generational preference.

i'm relatively negative on "lady" as used for someone who doesn't hold some sort of royal title. it's just been used for so long to establish these dichotomies between "good" women and "bad" women, make class associations, etc. completely useless, in my book. if what i mean is that the woman i'm referring to is "good" or some variant thereof i'll simply say so.

i do like my generation of feminism's reclaiming of "lady" though. used in a much more punk rock way than as a way of passing judgement.

[the opoponax]

just wanted to add that my reasoning for the dislike of "lady" mainly has to do with the use of "gentleman" has generally faded off, except for highly formal situations and certain labels on bathroom doors in bars and restaurants.

nobody ever says, "now that wasn't very gentlemanly of you..." or "sit up straight like a good gentleman", or the rest, as "lady" and "ladylike" are still quite often used.