All the good music

Stumbled across this on YouTube: "Satan's Tool: The truth about contemporary Christian music."

It's part of a sermon by a poor soul named Alan Ives, the music minister at Wyldewood Baptist Church in Oshkosh, Wisc. Ives and his wife Ellen also run their own "ministry" (i.e., mini-industry) called Concord and Harmony, "Presenting godly, conservative, traditional Christian music."

This kind of thing is laughable, but not unusual. Professional scolds like Sketch Erickson, Bob Larson and Bob "Bobby Dee" DeMoss have made a career of this shtick. They function as guards patrolling the walls of America's evangelical Christian subculture, warning against the decadent, worldly society's assaults on the fortress and doing their best to distract its occupants from noticing that the barbed wire they've erected faces in.

Ives' routine involves lecturing about the inherent sinfulness of certain kinds of rhythm. In short, he believes "godly" music should be a march in 4/4 time. Anything else is the Devil's work. Ives specifically condemns the boogie-woogie, the back beat and the break-beat -- playing examples of each on the church piano -- as music that is ungodly because "it makes the body want to dance."

The remarkable -- and pitiable -- thing about Ives presentation is the way he seems to relish the samples of "ungodly" music he performs. It becomes clear that when he talks about this music's irresistible effect on "the body" he's really talking about his body. If it's got a back beat he can't lose it. Alan Ives desperately wants to rock. Standing at the piano, demonstrating the insidious way that boogie-woogie rhythms have tainted sacred music, he seems to be teetering on the brink of letting loose his inner Jerry Lee.

Ives' presentation reeks with the scent of frustrated musician -- frustrated not by a lack of talent (he seems at least competent at the three instruments he plays in the clip), but by the fervent belief that God doesn't want him to do what he seems passionately to want to do.

"I believe God made me for a purpose," Eric Liddell says in Chariots of Fire, "but he also made me fast. And when I run I feel His pleasure."

Every time Alan Ives gets a hint of God's pleasure he backs away, thinking he must be doing something wrong. Then to make sure it doesn't happen again, he redoubles his vigilance on patrol.

And like the rest of the inmates, he has almost successfully convinced himself that the walls are there for his own protection.

Comments

[JS Bangs]

Wow. I mean... wow. The weird thing is, the saxophone parts he plays--both the "evil" jazz and the "holy" gospel--are pretty good songs. And you're right: he clearly wants to rock, particularly when he starts playing the backbeat.

[Cameron Hill]

no mention of the gross eurocentrism?

I wonder how he deals with music like classical music: neither dance nor good wholesome 4/4 marches

[Otter]

Why do they always blame the drummers? We're just trying to keep everybody playing together. It's not our fault that the constant pounding makes people want to procreate. And in my experience, marching music works perfectly well when one needs to help a willing accomplice to feel Her pleasure.

Cymbal crashes. Yeah.

[Jesurgislac]

Otter: Why do they always blame the drummers?

Because drummers are evil. ;-)

[Chris Koeberle]

"and you're going to have that offbeat syncopation in the voices... and those don't belong in gospel music."

But apparently, they DO belong in a speech about gospel music. He seems to be reasonably bright - how can it possibly escape him that in a 10-minute lecture, he TALKS in a march rhythm for about 30 seconds near the end, and for the rest of it, he uh... Kind of makes me want to dance.

[Eric]

I wonder how that poor guy would feel if someone told him that most of the songs in that hymnal are Christian words put to old drinking songs from the era in which they are written.

[Zorya]

I remember Bob Larson. He came to my (then) church about 30 years ago (back when he had hair) and preached at a revival about the evils of rock and roll music. At the end of the week we had a record and book burning. You would be amazed (or maybe not) at the pile of stuff that people brought in.

30 years later (and a happy little pagan granmother) I am amazed that we actually did that.

[McJulie]

Ah, watching that clip put me in mind of being a wee tyke back in the 70s and 80s, sitting in the pews staring up at the preacher and arguing vehemently with him in the privacy of my own busy, skeptical head.

For example, that twiddly jazz number he briefly plays -- you can't dance to that kind of jazz music, you really can't. I suppose it's ungodly because the melody isn't "beautiful" but then, if he calls one melody beautiful and I call it dull, who's to say which of us is right?

And his assertion that dance rhythms don't belong in "gospel" music -- wow, where has he been for a hundred years of American musical history? And... you can certainly dance to a sprightly march, but he doesn't even mention tempo as part of the holy/unholy equation. And is a march that actually makes you want to, you know, march around holy or unholy?

He doesn't mention waltzes, and addresses swing music only in passing -- he completely ignores the many folk dances performed to catchy ethnic rhythms -- and what about ballet, is ballet unholy? It's performed to classical music! Classical! Hardly any rhythm at all! Where does he imagine God stands on ballroom dancing? Fred and Ginger? Lawrence Welk? Polkas? Square dancing? Morris men? Power ballads? (I mean, they're "rock" but they don't make anybody want to dance.)

His summation is particularly weird and disturbing, where he seems to be asserting that only marches are acceptable for Christians because Christians are supposed to be "warriors" although the melodies are supposed to bring "peace," so... jeez, what the heck is he even talking about?

If there is a God, he/she/it certainly wants us to dance. Dance, dance, wherever you may be...

[daniel]

this music's irresistible effect on "the body" he's really talking about his body

Related: This horrible, horrible "survey" on evangelical men and teens and their views on modesty betrays a view of women as existing only to serve men. A bunch of the good (i.e. tragic/horrible) replies are collected here.

Ladies, this is where you can get confused. Many women would think guys are ‘all about’ women who flaunt their bodies. I am here to attempt to speak for us Christian men fighting the fight for purity. Women like this disgust and frustrate me. They take advantage of something that God intended to be beautiful. They lure men away from that which they truly love. They make men like me fight and struggle, and cause many to fall. THESE WOMEN SHOULD NOT BE ADORED OR FOLLOWED! Christian sisters, please do not think that this attention is anything more than a result of short-sighted shallow men who are sexually frustrated and unwilling to follow God’s plan for sex. To me, women who flaunt their bodies make me turn my head, repulsed, and pray that God would guard my heart, eyes, and mind, and that somehow He would show them His infinite love, and that they don’t need to act in this way to be loved.

[Pepper]

Wow. That's... heartbreaking.

[ali]

I haven't watched the video yet, but last weekend I went to my (almost 87 yr old) grandmother's church with her. They had a special student thing over the weekend with a guest preacher and a band so the church was really rocking that morning, much so than normal (It's a small Southern Baptist church). Grandma is very deaf so there was a lot she didn't get (like the word the Old Testament and Psalms 150 and then she quoted a bit of it, she was referring to this: "Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre, praise him with tambourine and dancing; praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals."

[Michèle]

McJulie wrote:
> and what about ballet, is ballet unholy? It's performed to classical music! Classical! Hardly any rhythm at all!

You haven't seen much ballet or listened to much classical music, have you?

Just one example out of many: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rite_of_spring

[TomK]

Really really sad.

[spinetingler]

There are an abundence of ridiculous threads about this very topic over at Brother Randys Teens-4-christ.com site. Most of them he's locked after getting called on his bullshit.

Yes, I have trolled him under many names there.

[Mouse]

But so many hymns are written in a six-eight time signature. Does that mean they're evil?

[Fade]

This all makes me want to listen to "The Houseplant Song" a few times over.

Once I got a book, and this is what it said:
If your music has a beat, you're gonna wind up dead.
It doesn't really matter if it's "Christian" or not:
If it's got syncopated rhythm, then your soul is gonna rot!

[Evan]

I'm reminded of this piece from the late, lamented Brunching Shuttlecocks:
http://www.brunching.com/amygrant.html -- "A picture of Amy Grant making the devil sign which I found on the web and linked back to the page I got it from, which just goes to show that everything associated with Christian Rock is completely hilarious." Don't miss clicking on the picture.

[Mnemosyne]

As always, everything old is new again, and it's even older than you think. Here's a passage from PG Wodehouse's short story "The Aunt and the Sluggard" was published close to 100 years ago (1919, to be exact) and includes a plot device where Jeeves takes a troublesome aunt to see a tent revival to get rid of her:

"[Revivalist Jimmy Mundy] said that the tango and the fox-trot were devices of the devil to drag people down into the Bottomless Pit. He said that there was more sin in ten minutes with a negro banjo orchestra than in all the ancient revels of Nineveh and Babylon. And when he stood on one leg and pointed right at where I was sitting and shouted, 'This means you!' I could have sunk through the floor. I came away a changed woman. Surely you must have noticed the change in me, Rockmetteller? You must have seen that I was no longer the careless, thoughtless person who had urged you to dance in those places of wickedness?"

And let's not even discuss the evils of THE WALTZ!!!

[arturus]

Regarding the linked website about "modesty": It probably says something about the environment I'm used to that I was genuinely surpised when every single question was about female modesty, with no mention given to male modesty. I mean, I expected it to be sexist and horribly conservative, but I didn't think that they'd not ask about male modesty at all.

The constant emphasis on "stumbling blocks" found in the most mundane things is disconcerting as well.

[A Texan in Bavaria]

So very much about American Christendom confuses the hell out of Bavarians (and other Germans). I'll have to show this to my boyfriend.

In one of the little towns near me, for example, there's an enduring Palm Sunday tradition:

After the Mass, the priest comes out and says a few words, then taps a keg of some fine, very strong beer and a huge fest begins, with a brass band pumping out drinking songs. Bavarian Catholics do not find anything odd about this and see it as a fully appropriate way to celebrate the arrival of Jesus. The Lutheran minority goes along with the party, because they like beer, too.

(too bad I gave up alcohol for Lent...)

[M Groesbeck]

It seems that what Ives objects to is any musical innovation by (or influenced by) African-American music -- much of it specifically Christian music (a.k.a. Gospel music). The swing beat in particular (which he mislabels "boogie-woogie," though one bassline he plunks out is a boogie line) seems to give him a hard time; the backbeat (as a simple form of syncopation...and syncopation seems to be the sign of evil to Ives) entered white American popular music via white musicians' appropriation of African-American blues and rock-and-roll.

Never mind that the "good old-fashioned way" of singing "gospel songs" that he promotes is basically the same syncopated, dancing-and-clapping set of church songs that gave rise to all the rhythms he objects to -- but flattened out for a puritanical audience. He manages to be simultaneously musically illiterate, historically illiterate, and Biblically illiterate while preaching on all three -- and it's a racist sermon on top of that.

[Axiomatic]

Youtube, slacktivist?

Get with the times! Now GodTube is where it's at!

[Wakboth]

Wow. And I had thought that the image of a preacher desperately warning young people against dancing, that foul vile of the Devil, was an exaggeration.

So sad.

[Andrew Farrell]

Oh man, I miss the Brunching Shuttlecocks.

[Rosina]

In one of the little towns near me, for example, there's an enduring Palm Sunday tradition:

After the Mass, the priest comes out and says a few words, then taps a keg of some fine, very strong beer and a huge fest begins, with a brass band pumping out drinking songs. Bavarian Catholics do not find anything odd about this and see it as a fully appropriate way to celebrate the arrival of Jesus. The Lutheran minority goes along with the party, because they like beer, too.

(too bad I gave up alcohol for Lent...)

But Lent ends on Palm Sunday - which is presumably where the tradition of a Fest after the service begins: it's the beginning of Holy Week. So get out there Texan and drink his keg, and eat the sausages and pickles. The fast is over.

[the opoponax]

Rosina -- i thought Holy Week was the fastingest of the fasting time... in fact i remember getting lectures in catholic school about the Evil Temptation of Crawfish Boils On Good Friday, Especially Those Which Serve Beer. and crawfish boils were specifically invented because they don't involve meat.

the "no dancing" thing is a hold out from even longer ago than the time when syncopation was considered teh devil. this one ancestor of mine was a somewhat obscure Methodist theologian, and his memoirs are FULL of what a pious lad he was and how he never went out dancing to Teh Devil's Music... in the 1770's! you know that Mozart...

also, The Rite of Spring was HELLA controversial when it premiered in Paris in 1913 (an actual riot broke out in the theater during the performance!). mainly because the rhythms were so primal and sexual. it's also not really either "Classical" music or "Ballet" -- i'm not sure where exactly it falls on the official music spectrum (methinks modernism or somesuch), but most dance folks consider the choreography to be among the first forays into modern dance. though ballet companies do perform it sometimes, it has VERY little to do with traditional ballet. therefore not particularly indicative of how rhythmic "classical" music and ballet are.

[Richard Hershberger]

"So very much about American Christendom confuses the hell out of Bavarians (and other Germans)"

Heh. I belong to one of the remnant of bilingual (German and English) Lutheran churches. My pastor is German. We sometimes chat about the peculiarities of American Christendom.

Oh, and German Lutherans are no more anti-alcohol than German Catholics. Several times a year we have a few kegs in the social hall. The closest thing to a raging debate on the subject we have had is the German contingent being shocked that the American contingent carefully pours the beer so as to minimize the foam. The Germans compare the head of foam on a mug of beer to the crust on a loaf of bread. (I haven't had the heart to tell any of them that some people cut the crust off.)

[Scott]

Because drummers are evil. ;-)

Did you hear about the rock band who locked their keys in their van? It took them 4 hours to get the drummer out.

:-)

To me, women who flaunt their bodies make me turn my head, repulsed, and pray that God would guard my heart, eyes, and mind, and that somehow He would show them His infinite love, and that they don’t need to act in this way to be loved.

In other words, "if I cannot assert power over them by getting them to submit to me sexually as a husband, I will assert it by going to God and the two of us will decide _for_them_ what's best for them".

[Doctor Science]

I think M Groesbeck has hit the nail on the head -- the subtext here is *race*, which is one reason this schtick gets no traction in Europe.

[Ellen Fremedon]

In short, he believes "godly" music should be a march in 4/4 time.

Is he aware that Sousa marches were dance music in their time? "Washington Post" started a craze for the two-step. Of course, that's in 6/8.

[Erick Oppeen]

And some Christians are actually hurt and uncomprehending when we nonbelievers make it clear that we see them as a bunch of killjoys and spoilsports.

[VJB]

Back in the old, old days (before 1500 AD), triple meter was considered the most sacred because of the trinity. This was, of course, before the young were led to the devil by the waltz.

[ako]

The constant emphasis on "stumbling blocks" found in the most mundane things is disconcerting as well.

The whole "stumbling block" thing seems to be a way to shift responsibility without admitting they're shifiting responsibility. The passage in question (Romans 14:13 "Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.") seems to be more of a call for individuals to not judge each other, but focus on what they themselves do to create difficulties for their fellow man.

By labelling female conduct, regardless of intent (read the bits on stretching and bending over; it's scary) as a stumbling block, it becomes a way for those men to blame women. Rather than ask themselves "Am I creating a stumbling block by judging women by their appearance, and accusing all those who don't meet my expectations of sinful intent?" they can accuse, "You're creating a stumbling block for me by bending over like that. The Bible says you shouldn't do that. You're bad. Stop it, and only move how I tell you to move."

[Evan]

I just remembered what else this reminds me of: Kurt Vonnegut's marvelous short story "The Foster Portfolio". I don't feel right saying too much about it and spoiling the story for those who haven't read it, but if you haven't, pick up a copy of Welcome to the Monkey House and check it out.

[Frantz Fanon]

ya know for people whose whole idea is taking the bible literally they sure do pile on a load other crap that ain't even in here.

Would someone please tell me what passage says 4/4 time is the only music allowed to praise God with?

Enquiring minds want to know...

The bibles says don't eat pork but good luck pulling a hambone outta a good southern boys mouth.

[the opoponax]

the subtext here is *race*, which is one reason this schtick gets no traction in Europe.

yeah, because we all know Europeans can never be racist...

i wonder how many Europeans will admit to liking Klezmer?

ever see the film Swing Kids (which, i'll grant, is American, and also very silly)? it's about a clique of teenage Jazz fanboys in Hamburg at some point during the 30's. They're CONSTANTLY being harrassed by the clean cut types because so much of what they're listening to is played by Jews and has a Jewish influence. Benny Goodman, anyone?

[Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little]

the opoponax - I've always pointed to New Orleans crawfish boils and fried catfish and charbroiled oysters (mmm, Drago's) as being the reason why the Catholicism I was raised in down there bore such little resemblance to whatever scary strict guilt-n-self-loathing version of the religion other Pagans of my acquaintance must have been raised in or encountered such that when I said "I was raised Catholic" they said "I'm sorry."

"Oh, it's Friday already? OK, no roast beef po-boy. Got it. Let's go shuck us some ersters, then."

(Seemed like the *strict* sect wasn't the Catholics but whatever group it is on the corner of St. Charles at I-10 that protests the Mardi Gras parades every year.)

On the other hand, this also skews the area's default definition of "vegetarian," with the result that my grandmother was very confused when we told her that my husband wouldn't be able to eat the merleton casserole. "See, it has shrimp in it." "...So?"

[Jesurgislac]

The opoponax, I think there's a specific form of American racism - discrimination against Black American culture - which doesn't get much traction in Europe. (Some, of course. But most Brits have no notion what kind of music "reads" as Black to an American. That's my impression, at any rate.) At least, certainly didn't occur to me that this preacher was being racist until it was pointed out to me in this thread and a thread at Pandagon. And yet, I can see it's so.

(Christmas carols are specifically dance music, as anyone who knows a little history would know...)

[Jesurgislac]

Nicole: On the other hand, this also skews the area's default definition of "vegetarian," with the result that my grandmother was very confused when we told her that my husband wouldn't be able to eat the merleton casserole. "See, it has shrimp in it."

This definition of vegetarian is skewed everywhere. I was staying in a hotel in Milton Keynes once, for a science-fiction convention, miles from anywhere civilised to eat, and had been promised at least one vegetarian option on the menu for each day. Saturday night, the "vegetarian" option was a baked potato with some kind of shrimp filling. Come to that, at another skiffy convention, the "vegetarian" sandwiches provided for tea on Friday afternoon included tuna. And the number of "vegetarians" who confuse the issue by saying "I'm vegetarian... oh, yes, I eat fish."

When travelling in China a friend who is studying Chinese wrote a card for me that explained in neat characters that "I am a vegetarian. I do not eat meat. I do not eat fish." (She said otherwise I would be sure to find I had fish on my plate.)

So, yes. Everywhere. (And I know vegans who protest that vegetarians like me make it difficult for them because I eat dairy and eggs: and yes, but I cannot bear to give up cheese. Or omelettes. Mmm.)

[the opoponax]

i've always wondered why so many vegetarians, not just in lousiana but worldwide, are cool with seafood.

and yeah, Nicole, that teacher who used to lecture us thusly was one of the closest-to-fundie catholics i've ever met. he was like this one voice of puritanism in a world of, well, Mardi Gras.

and jesu -- oh, i'll admit that racism takes different forms in europe. but i've heard enough brits complaining about the dirty wogs to know that there are MANY ways to be racist... and i know for a fact that there are european racial memes comparable to this one that i wouldn't get at first glance.

[Michèle]

the opoponax wrote:
> also, The Rite of Spring was HELLA controversial when it premiered in Paris in 1913 (an actual riot broke out in the theater during the performance!). mainly because the rhythms were so primal and sexual. it's also not really either "Classical" music or "Ballet" -- i'm not sure where exactly it falls on the official music spectrum (methinks modernism or somesuch), but most dance folks consider the choreography to be among the first forays into modern dance. though ballet companies do perform it sometimes, it has VERY little to do with traditional ballet. therefore not particularly indicative of how rhythmic "classical" music and ballet are.

Well, if you limit "classical" music to the period containing Mozart & Haydn and limit "ballet" to "Swan Lake", then you have a point. It's "classical" music in the same sense that Bach is or Charles Ives is. It's ballet in the same sense that "Rodeo" is.

My point was only that classical music is by no means a-rhythmical - far from it! Ditto for ballet.

[cjmr's husband]

HELLA controversial? The Greeks didn't like it?

[Jeff Weskamp]

I just hate these people's conception of God: He's this big, giant ogre up in the sky waiting to stomp you flat if you ever relax for a moment and start dancing! These so-called Christians remind me of children raised in abusive homes, children who creep around quietly, too terrified to laugh or play or make any noise whatsoever, lest Daddy beat them to a bloody pulp. What an insulting, BLASPHEMOUS image of God! Why would anyone believe in such a god, tell me that! (And I agree with Frantz: show me the verse where God commands us to only play music with the 4/4 rhythm)

[cjmr]

I find myself comtemplating what this guy thinks of things like Gregorian chant, which has (simultaneously) very strict rhythm and no rhythm at all. Mind you, it's not likely to inspire anyone to break out into a dance step.

[straight]

That website that Lore (from Brunching Shuttlecocks) links to is priceless.

http://www.av1611.org/crock.html

Just when you think the raving has gone up to eleven, he has says, "You know who said something similar to these Christian Rock justifications?" Then he has a quote from, that's right, all caps

ADOLF HITLER!

[the opoponax]

Well, if you limit "classical" music to the period containing Mozart & Haydn and limit "ballet" to "Swan Lake", then you have a point. It's "classical" music in the same sense that Bach is or Charles Ives is. It's ballet in the same sense that "Rodeo" is.

My point was only that classical music is by no means a-rhythmical - far from it! Ditto for ballet.

but from the standpoint of people who actually know about these things, no.

people who really know music will say that, yes, Classical only refers to a certain movement within music during the 18th century. if what you mean by "Classical" is "european high-art music that passed out of fashion sometime in the 20th century", then OK, "Rite of Spring" falls into that. but if you use the definition of classical music that serious musicians use, then no, Stravinsky could never, ever be considered Classical.

same for ballet. i studied ballet and modern dance for over 10 years. they are not the same thing. and in dance terms especially, "Rite of Spring" is only considered ballet in the most tenuous sense. everything about that piece, if you've seen it performed, is quite clearly Modern Dance, not ballet -- it has virtually NOTHING in common with ballet. it's probably closer to hip hop or jazz dance than it is to ballet, in the sense that ballet is a particular technique. Rodeo, on the other hand, is definitely "ballet" in the classic sense. Swan Lake it's not, but through the american folk dance metaphor you can really see the ballet framework in the choreography. this is NOT true for Rite of Spring -- it has little or no resemblance to ballet whatsoever, but in fact is EXACTLY like the non-ballet modern dance that followed.

"Rite of Spring" is an incredibly poor example of the idea that classical music and ballet typically involve a lot of rhythm. Rite of Spring is one of the most atypical pieces of classical music and ballet choreography i can think of. it would be like saying "American films are usually written in extinct languages -- for instance Apocalypto."

[cjmr's husband]

One of the great lines from Doctor Who, c.1965:

"I didn't know the Beatles played classical music!!"

[Jesurgislac]

the opo: i've always wondered why so many vegetarians, not just in lousiana but worldwide, are cool with seafood.

No vegetarians eat seafood: if you eat seafood, you are not a vegetarian. Some fish-eaters tell me that they identify as vegetarian because this is the only way to ensure they will not be served meat. I try not to bite their heads off for doing this. Even if their heads appear to be made of mashed potato.

Likewise a man who informed me that his daughter-in-law had convinced his son to "turn vegetarian" - though, he added reassuringly, they still ate fish and chicken, just not "red meat". Evidently they'd given up beef and mutton, and Dad had understood this as "turning vegetarian"...

[peasant]

I have just recovered my long lost love for hard rock after being suppressed for many years. I don't know why I thought listening to wussy music would somehow make me more righteous. Music with energy makes me happier, grounded, free to be myself. It's so much more raw and honest than saccharine CCM
From Elvis to Rage Against the Machine, the best rock music expresses the tension between sin and salvation inherent within.
-- The spirit in rock music, Catapult Magazine