All the good music

Stumbled across this on YouTube: "Satan's Tool: The truth about contemporary Christian music."

It's part of a sermon by a poor soul named Alan Ives, the music minister at Wyldewood Baptist Church in Oshkosh, Wisc. Ives and his wife Ellen also run their own "ministry" (i.e., mini-industry) called Concord and Harmony, "Presenting godly, conservative, traditional Christian music."

This kind of thing is laughable, but not unusual. Professional scolds like Sketch Erickson, Bob Larson and Bob "Bobby Dee" DeMoss have made a career of this shtick. They function as guards patrolling the walls of America's evangelical Christian subculture, warning against the decadent, worldly society's assaults on the fortress and doing their best to distract its occupants from noticing that the barbed wire they've erected faces in.

Ives' routine involves lecturing about the inherent sinfulness of certain kinds of rhythm. In short, he believes "godly" music should be a march in 4/4 time. Anything else is the Devil's work. Ives specifically condemns the boogie-woogie, the back beat and the break-beat -- playing examples of each on the church piano -- as music that is ungodly because "it makes the body want to dance."

The remarkable -- and pitiable -- thing about Ives presentation is the way he seems to relish the samples of "ungodly" music he performs. It becomes clear that when he talks about this music's irresistible effect on "the body" he's really talking about his body. If it's got a back beat he can't lose it. Alan Ives desperately wants to rock. Standing at the piano, demonstrating the insidious way that boogie-woogie rhythms have tainted sacred music, he seems to be teetering on the brink of letting loose his inner Jerry Lee.

Ives' presentation reeks with the scent of frustrated musician -- frustrated not by a lack of talent (he seems at least competent at the three instruments he plays in the clip), but by the fervent belief that God doesn't want him to do what he seems passionately to want to do.

"I believe God made me for a purpose," Eric Liddell says in Chariots of Fire, "but he also made me fast. And when I run I feel His pleasure."

Every time Alan Ives gets a hint of God's pleasure he backs away, thinking he must be doing something wrong. Then to make sure it doesn't happen again, he redoubles his vigilance on patrol.

And like the rest of the inmates, he has almost successfully convinced himself that the walls are there for his own protection.

Comments

[MUG]

Feel sorry for this guy....

That's like saying some colors schemes glorify god while others dont. Or maybe some shapes arrangements do and others dont.

Damn, man, god even made those baboons with the big, red asses! Don't you think the rhythm of a babbling stream or even the pulsating of Quasars can jive to a back beat...???

[pat greene]

All I can think of is David dancing before the Ark of the Covenant. And this guy thinks he's more righteous than David?

[A-Diz.]

That's like saying some colors schemes glorify god while others dont.

That reminds me of another great teens-4-christ.org thread entitled "Wearing Black Clothing?" Where a bunch of forum members argued about whether wearing a lot of black would make the original poster less-righteous.

...the general consensus seemed to be that everyone was better off in pastels. I don't get religion.

[ako]

All I can think of is David dancing before the Ark of the Covenant. And this guy thinks he's more righteous than David?

Possibly. Do we know of him ordering a man to his death in order to steal that man's wife? Because if not, he could have a good argument.

[Ian]

So let me get this straight -- Gospel music is not "Gospel" music? No ragtime? No big band? Usually cultural conservatives just want to go back to the 1950's.

Ellen mentioned Souza -- apparently "The Liberty Bell," being a march, is "gospel" music. I can only conclude that God is a Monty Python fan. This seems plausible to me.

I've been in Ives' shoes -- believing that I'm obliged to stay away from what's obviously good. From there, it's hard to come to believe the evidence provided by your own senses and powers of reason.

I hope someday to hear more than just a couple bars of that man's backbeat.

[Ryan Walker]

Who's heard Heart and Soul? It's okay, be honest!

He seems like he's on a bunch of coke or something.

"I didn't know the Beatles played classical music!!"

Aw, you should've stuck the clip in:

Apparently the Beatles clip in here is the only surviving video of their appearance on Top of the Pops on April 10, 1965.

[Brandi Weed]

Forgot to put my name in. And darn the luck, I can't embed the clip in comments.

Let's see if the link will work.

[Jeff]

Because drummers are evil. ;-)

Isn't that why their prone to burst into flame? :-D

the opoponax: Have I been mis-spelling your name as "opponax". If so, I apologize. I will endeavor to remember the proper spelling.

[inge]

I try not to get involved when music fans are having a fandom war...

If he feels that the classical composers messed up the beauty and harmony of baroque and renaissance beyond repair, and romance and beyond is just unspeakable -- well, that's nothing I haven't heard before. OK, so he seems to like modern instruments (not a purist, then). OK, so he's mixing it up with religion, probably for marketing reasons, and doesn't offer anything on middle eastern muscial traditions, which I would expect from someone looking for musical principles in the bible. Two of his bible quotes have nothing to do with music at all, and the third only speaks about making a joyful noise, and not about musical theory.

But the only interesting question is IMO, are those recordings any good? Unless he's going for creative anachronism, everything he can offer will have been recoreded by world-class musicians at least a dozen times. The one sample I found on the page fails to convince me that he's offering anything interesting or new. If that's his standard, he needs religion as a marketing gimmick.

[inge]

Cameron Hill: no mention of the gross eurocentrism?

If he's going for classical and Christian, non-European will be very hard to find. (Would be interesting, though.)

[inge]

Hey, Texan in Bavaria: You want beer, come to Erlangen for the Kirchweih. I recommend Storchenbraeu ;-)

They are playing Blasmusik and Oldies there, BTW.

[Michèle]

I wrote:
> My point was only that classical music is by no means a-rhythmical - far from it! Ditto for ballet.

The opoponax wrote:
> but from the standpoint of people who actually know about these things, no.
>
> people who really know music will say that, yes, Classical only refers to a certain movement within music during the 18th century. if what you mean by "Classical" is "european high-art music that passed out of fashion sometime in the 20th century", then OK, "Rite of Spring" falls into that. but if you use the definition of classical music that serious musicians use, then no, Stravinsky could never, ever be considered Classical.

I would love to know what you think the "definition of classical music that serious musicians use" is.

I admit to not being a dancer, but I *am* a serious musician. I went to Conservatory. I majored in Composition (and minored in Flute). I am a professional classical musician now. So I think I *do* have at least *some* idea what I'm talking about.

Perhaps "The Rite of Spring" is not strictly "ballet", but I maintain that Stravinsky is indeed "classical music" in the sense of being "serious art music".

And my point still stands - neither "classical music" nor "ballet" are a-rhythmic. Do you disagree? If so, why?

[movablenu]

Don't be too hard on him, I don't know where I would find such a consistent source of joy in my life if my crazy American brothers and sisters were to stop coming up with gold like this.

[inge]

the opoponax: i wonder how many Europeans will admit to liking Klezmer

It's non-mainstream folk music, so it's a niche taste -- probably has the same number of fans as Scandinavian or Slavic folk music (i.e., far less than Celtic). However, if I found someone loudly proclaiming that really, they love Klezmer, I would get the "some of my best friends are Jews"-vibe.

In the 50s, raging against "Negermusik" was at least as common in Germany as in the US. Everyone who felt that kids these days were undisciplined and didn't listen to their elders ranted against Americans with their Jazz, their comic books and their loose morals. In the 60s, ranting turned to hippies, anarchists and Italians.

The specific combination of populist christian preachers and racsims seems a more American way of doing things, so. More indicative of a lack of populist preachers than of a lack of racists and bigots, IMO.

[Martin Luther]

“However, when man’s natural musical ability is whetted and polished to the extent that it becomes an art, then do we note with great surprise the great and perfect wisdom of God in music, which is, after all, His product and His gift; we marvel when we hear music in which one voice sings a simple melody, while three, four, or five other voices play and trip lustily around the voice that sings its simple melody and adorn this simple melody wonderfully with artistic musical effects, thus reminding us of a heavenly dance, where all meet in a spirit of friendliness, caress and embrace.

A person who gives this some thought and yet does not regard music as a marvelous creation of God, must be a clodhopper indeed and does not deserve to be called a human being; he should be permitted to hear nothing but the braying of asses and the grunting of hogs.”

[Richard Hershberger]

"I would love to know what you think the "definition of classical music that serious musicians use" is."

Years ago this question was discussed on "Performance Today". My favorite answer was "Classical music is music during the performance of which the audience is expected to keep quiet." This definition isn't perfect, but it works surprisingly well.

[Jesurgislac]

Richard: My favorite answer was "Classical music is music during the performance of which the audience is expected to keep quiet." This definition isn't perfect, but it works surprisingly well.

Well, if "classical music" is defined as "privileged music", yes. All musicians I've spoken to love it when the audience keeps quiet when they're performing: but, unless they're playing in a concert hall, they cannot command silence. But if that's your working definition, then Willie Nelson plays classical music...

[the opoponax]

"And my point still stands - neither "classical music" nor "ballet" are a-rhythmic. Do you disagree? If so, why?"

i really can't speak to the music, as all music i'm familiar with obviously has rhythm, regardless of time period or "movement". obviously you know a lot more about it than i do, but i learned in high school music classes that Classical only refers to a specific period of music during the 18th century, after Baroque but before Romantic, that features Mozart, Beethoven, etc. though obviously i know that when most people use the term, they mean something like what Richard said above, or "fancy high-falutin' music" or "old fashioned music" or something like that. as i said above, it would depend which meaning you were using whether Stravinsky is classical or not. according to the most correct definition as i understand it, he would not be considered Classical. but, you know, i have a habit of being pedantic and wrong that way.

in terms of ballet, yeah, it's quite rare that you get choreography where rhythm is anything more than secondary or tertiary. it's not a form i'd call "rhythmic", really ever. the only time in ballet when rhythm really comes into play is if you're doing something that's influenced by other dance forms. classical ballet rarely involves rhythm in anything but the most basic and perfunctory sense (like staying in synch with other dancers, or not finishing your combination before the music ends). it's just not rhythmic in the way that other dance forms are.

[Steve]

You know, I was listening to Wild Thing by Tone Loc the other day, and I'm thinking maybe this guy has a point.

[jbrandt]

He does a little beatboxing in there, too. He totally wants to rock out. Poor guy.

Man, I need to rip the audio from this. It's a smorgasbord of great samples to throw into a mix.

[Michèle]

the opoponax -- OK, now I see where our disconnect happened.

I was indeed using the word "classical" in the broader sense. I thought that was obvious because I used lower case letters and because I was including Stravinsky in that category. When I subsequently mentioned that you seem to be limiting the term to include only Mozart & Haydn, then again broadened it myself when I included both Bach & Ives (Charles, not this doofus preacher guy), I thought I was again being obvious.

ASCAP (the American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers) used to call this stuff "serious" music, but now call it "Concert and Recital Music". *That's* what I meant by the term "classical". It's an imperfect term because of the whole Baroque/Classical/Romantic thing, but it works & most people understand what is meant by it. (Another term for it is "art" music. The problem with words like "art" and "serious" is -- are pop musicians or jazz musicians *not* artists? Are they not serious about their music?

The definition "music to keep quiet to" I guess works nowadays, but I find it mildly insulting - probably because it has the connotation (as Jesurgislac said) of "privileged music". Which I suppose is historically accurate, but still - the love of "classical" music is not limited to the Privileged Few or the Rich. Not anymore, at least.

And when I claimed that ballet was rhythmic, I wasn't talking about the dance motions themselves, but the music - which is why I included "Rite of Spring" as "ballet music" - ie. "music that you dance to on stage while an audience watches" (but again that's an imperfect definition & completely ignores things such as tap, soft-shoe, etc.). I would consider most of the music in "Nutcracker" to be rhythmic, yet it's clearly "ballet".

The only reason I started talking about this at all was because it seemed as if someone (and I forget who - sorry) seemed to be saying that "classical" music has no rhythm, and does not ignite the listener's heart or make one want to dance. That is true of some pieces of "classical music" - just as it is true of some pieces of "rock" or "pop" or "jazz" or what-have-you - but it is not true of each and every piece of "classical music" that has ever been written, nor is it true of the majority of pieces of "classical music". "Rite of Spring" is just one example of this - I personally find it VERY hard indeed to sit still while listening to it. In fact, I rarely try. Ditto for "Hoe Down" (Copland) or "Mars, the Bringer of War" (Holst). Ditto for "Prelude & Fugue in d minor" (Bach) or even "Recuerdos" (Tarrega).

[Allen]

But so many hymns are written in a six-eight time signature. Does that mean they're evil?

That depends if they're in duple (Godly) or triple (ungodly). Hemiolas, are of course, downright satanic.

[Rosina]

Now we know why 'they' hate Europeans - they have seen the Eurovision Song Contest and know that we are ungodly!

Particularly after last year and Lordi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXjzwY08Qfc

[Bugmaster]

Damn, man, god even made those baboons with the big, red asses!

No, that was Satan. Duh. Get your Biblical facts straight ! :-)

Ako -- David repented of his sin, and was punished; Bathsheba's first son died; and was rewarded with Solomon. So yes, David was righteous before the Lord, and the Lord favored him.

And that dancing bit? Only person not okay with that was Michal, one of David's wives.

"David repented of his sin, and was punished; Bathsheba's first son died"

I remember being assigned that passage when I received lay-reading training. I had a terrible time with. What kind of Deity would punish anyone in that way? Isn't it just a twitch cruel to the child and mother?

The point of the assignment was, of course, to lay aside our personal interpretations when reading in a public worship service. (I don't think the passage is included in any standard lectionary.) It's a fine line between adding color and interest to a reading, and interjecting your individual opinions.

[hapax]

That 'twere me, hapax, @2:10. Is typepad stripping off names, now?

[Jeff]

All musicians I've spoken to love it when the audience keeps quiet when they're performing

Is this for all genres, or a specific one? For something like harp pieces or Celtic folktunes, they might want quiet, but for rock, soul, C/W, rap,... the audience is encouraged to clap or sing along.

But if that's your working definition, then Willie Nelson plays classical music...

Willie doesn't invite sing-alongs during the chorus, or clapping during the song? We must be thinking of different Willie Nelsons!

[Luke]

You know, the music thing Fred started with, and this thread at large, with the pastels and beer, etc, could be qualified by a single Buffy quote:

"Note to self: Religion Freaky."

[Frantz Fanon]

What time capsul was this clip pulled from?

For reals who still refers to "Boogie Woogie" music?

It reminds of the Dave Chapelle skit when the blind black "white supremist" has a bunch white subarbain kids pull up next to his car blasting hip-hop and he yells out the window "WOOGIE BOOGIE NIGGER! WOOGIE BOOGIE!"

[rugosa]

Where on earth do these "christians" get their ideas about what god does and does not permit? Why would god give us a sense of rhythm and a sense of joy in moving our bodies, and then tell us it's a sin to enjoy rhythm and movement? I remember my working-class parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles cutting loose on the dance floor at weddings. A few drinks, a good meal, the company of family and friends and a polka band, and for a couple of hours they had no cares. Does the christian god really want his people to lead lives of unrelenting gloom?

[hf]

rugosa, while people have always had strange ideas about this, we have reason to think that biblical literalists in America about fifty years ago consciously chose to emphasize theories that would help Republicans win elections in order to fight godless Communism.

[hf]

To understand what the GOP stood for if not religion as such, read Bob Altemeyer's research (pdfs).

[Ken]

After the Mass, the priest comes out and says a few words, then taps a keg of some fine, very strong beer and a huge fest begins, with a brass band pumping out drinking songs. Bavarian Catholics do not find anything odd about this and see it as a fully appropriate way to celebrate the arrival of Jesus. The Lutheran minority goes along with the party, because they like beer, too. -- Texan in Bavaria

Sounds like a good tradition. In the 18th Century, it was common for "the Parson" to retire to the tavern with the other men after a service and toss back a couple.

Then, sometime around the Late 19th Century, a lot of Christians here got the idea that teetotaling was the mark of a Real True Christian. (It was called the Temperance Movement, "Temperance" meaning total ban on anything alcoholic. The main organization in this, the Women's Christian Temperance Union, was still on Christian radio as late as 1980, ranting about "The Evils of Beverage Alcohol" and preaching a return to Prohibition.) Check the origin of Welch's Grape Juice sometime...

Totem to Temple blog cites the example of another giant of the Temperance Movement, celebrity evangelist (and ex-alcoholic) Billy Sunday in I Have a Problem, therefore You Must Also Have the Same Problem as an explanation of the dynamics behind the "Ban Everything!" school of Christianity.

[Ken]

...we have reason to think that biblical literalists in America about fifty years ago consciously chose to emphasize theories that would help Republicans win elections in order to fight godless Communism.

HF, that sounds too much like some of the Conspiracy Theories you hear when Art Bell opens up the phone lines around 3 Ayem. Christians seem to be especially prone to Conspiracy Theories; yours seems to be a "Right Wing Fundamentalist Conspiracy", a yin-yang mirror image of the more usual "Secular Humanist Liberal" Conspiracy Theory. And opposing conspiracy theories like that can too easily energize and synergize each other, until you end up with something like the dynamic of those two big political conspiracy theories of the 20th Century, Naziism and Communism.

[Ken]

Every time Alan Ives gets a hint of God's pleasure he backs away, thinking he must be doing something wrong. Then to make sure it doesn't happen again, he redoubles his vigilance on patrol.

That's just another instance of asceticism, the idea that denying pleasure automatically equals moral/spiritual superiority.

[Jesurgislac]

Jeff: Willie doesn't invite sing-alongs during the chorus, or clapping during the song? We must be thinking of different Willie Nelsons!

What can I say? The only time I went to a Willie Nelson concert, in a concert hall that held about a thousand people, the audience - all of whom get to hear Willie Nelson live once in a blue moon - wanted to hear Willie Nelson singing, not what kind of noise we could make, and sat quietly and listened. I do not recall him trying to get us to sing along with the chorus or clap during the song: possibly he'd dealt with British audiences before.

[Wesley Bourland]

Anyone else feel like he planned this whole sermon just so he could show off his reasonably competent instrumental skills?

[Jeff]

possibly he'd dealt with British audiences before.

That would explain it. Now I'm curious: for bands that you can hear often, is the attitude still "we wanted to hear [X] singing, not what kind of noise we could make, and sat quietly and listened."?

As I recall, the fans screamed at the Beatles as much in Liverpool as they did in NYC. I could see more quiet at an Oasis concert than at a Clash concert, though.

[hf]

Thank you, Godwin. Do you think fear of Communism has had no lasting pro-GOP effect on American 'Christianity' and biblical literalism in particular? That their leaders didn't notice any of this? That other factors had more effect? Option One on that list seems blatantly absurd.

[Jesurgislac]

Jeff: Now I'm curious: for bands that you can hear often, is the attitude still "we wanted to hear [X] singing, not what kind of noise we could make, and sat quietly and listened."?

No idea. When I mentioned I like Willie Nelson and Johnny Cash, my brother and sister very sweetly got me a ticket to a Willie Nelson concert happening nearby and near to my birthday, and that is (discounting carol concerts and musicals) very nearly the only live music performance I have ever been to. (Oh yes: the audience is expected to listen in silence to stage musicals, too: does this make Les Miserables and Cats "classical music"?) It was very nice of my siblings, and it was an experience to hear Willie singing live, but I am a bit of a freak in that I would, in general, much rather spend the ticket money for a live performance on more CDs.

[Jesurgislac]

(And part of the reason why I've never been into live music, to be fair - I'm toying with you a little - is that when I want to listen to music, I want to listen - I don't want to be distracted by the people around me. I was deeply relieved to find the audience at the Willie Nelson concert were (as another British Willie Nelson fan had promised me) evidently pretty much of the same mind.)

[ohiolibrarian]

Does the christian god really want his people to lead lives of unrelenting gloom?

In a word--yes. Or as H.L. Mencken put it, "Puritanism is the haunting fear that somewhere, someone is having fun."

[ako]

David repented of his sin, and was punished; Bathsheba's first son died; and was rewarded with Solomon. So yes, David was righteous before the Lord, and the Lord favored him.

So David was rightous because he was sorry and an innocent child died for his crimes. Presumably if Alan Ives only did things less bad than deliberately causing a man's death to sleep with his wife he repents for those things, and he's a Christian, thereby taking care of the "someone else has to die for what you did" element, then it's possible for him to be more righteous than David was.

[Richard Hershberger]

I have never heard Willie Nelson live, but I saw the Indigo Girls some years ago and people were singing along and dancing in the aisles.

The "quiet audience" definition of classical music is meant tongue in cheek, but there is a kernal of truth behind it. To a large extent it is a matter of attitude. If a negro spiritual is sung by an opera singer, the audience sits quietly and applauds: pure classical attitude. If a gospel choir sings the sang song, the audience will be on its feet and making noise: not at all classical. You might find me in either audience.

It's not as if there is a clear line between the art song and the popular song. I see no intrinsic reason to classify Paul Simon songs one way or the other. If Willie Nelson concerts have quietly respectful audience applauding between songs, then sure: I have no problem calling that classical. Or perhaps he was just off that day.

[Mnemosyne]

The definition "music to keep quiet to" I guess works nowadays, but I find it mildly insulting - probably because it has the connotation (as Jesurgislac said) of "privileged music". Which I suppose is historically accurate, but still - the love of "classical" music is not limited to the Privileged Few or the Rich. Not anymore, at least.

Well, not to start the wars up again ;-) but it's only very recently that "classical" music has been privileged music. Opera in particular was the pop music of its day; Verdi would not rehearse "La donna e mobile" in public before the premiere of Rigoletto because he knew it was going to be a hit.

It's only within the past 50 years or so that "classical music" has become synonymous with "snob music."

[Steven S.]

"Classical music is music during the performance of which the audience is expected to keep quiet."

Ironically enough, this is a post-Wagnerian view of music. I believe it was Chip Delany's "Wagner/Artaud" that pointed this out; Wagner drastically changed the way people listened to live music, and the structure of the theater in which they did so. If you read descriptions of classical music pre-Wagner, it's clear that people were not expected to keep quiet; an opera could be as much a social event as a musical one, say.

[Jeff]

I recently went to a performance of "Broadway melodies" (widely interpretted) by my girlfriend's nephew's high school (it was actaully pretty good). The audience was quiet except for two odd occurances: On two solos, as the singer was reaching the crescendo, the audience started appaulding, drowning out the last few seconds of the last note.

I thought it was rather rude personally.

[Perry]

I wonder why he didn't mention the stopped anapestic beat.

An Australian physician and psychiatrist, Dr. John Diamond, found a direct link between muscle strength/weakness and music. He discovered that all of the muscles in the entire body go weak when subjected to the "stopped anapestic beat" of music from hard rock musicians, including Led Zeppelin, Alice Cooper, Queen, The Doors, Janis Joplin, Bachman - Turner Overdrive, and The Band. Dr. Diamond found another effect of the anapestic beat. He called it a "switching" of the brain. Dr. Diamond said this switching occurs when the actual symmetry between both of the cerebral hemispheres is destroyed causing alarm in the body along with lessened work performance, learning and behavior problems in children, and a "general malaise in adults." In addition to harmful, irregular beats in rock music, shrill frequencies prove to also be harmful to the body. Bob Larson, a Christian minister and former rock musician, remembers that in the 70's teens would bring raw eggs to a rock concert and put them on the front of the stage. The eggs would be hard boiled by the music before the end of the concert and could be eaten. Dr. Earl W. Flosdorf and Dr. Leslie A. Chambers showed that proteins in a liquid medium were coagulated when subjected to piercing high-pitched sounds

I remember a very long sermon about this when I was a teen.