O.J.!

O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! ... Hey, wait, isn't there a war going on? ... O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! ... A war that can never end, because ending it would supposedly mean losing or "surrendering" ... O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! ... Even though there's not really anybody to lose to ... O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! ... And neverending war without purpose doesn't really sound like it makes us winners either ... O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! ... And no one, absolutely no one, seems able to tell us what "winning" would mean or look like other than never, ever ending ... O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.!

O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! ... So shouldn't we, maybe, be talking about this? ... O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.!

O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! ... Shouldn't there be hourlong nightly news specials asking questions like "What would winning mean?" ... O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! ... Or how will or can or should this ever, ever end? ... O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! ... Or just, you know, what's the point at this point? ... O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! ... Or is the situation just so completely insoluble, so massively FUBAR that we're desperate to latch onto any distracting bit of shark-attack, Anna Nicole, Paris Lohan nonsense we can find? ... O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.!

Comments

[ako]

Isn't it fairly well-documented that some of the hijackers from September 11th had been seen drinking a few months before the attack? So Al-Quaeda operatives aren't necessarily going to be the most rigid adherents to proper Islamic behavior. I believe they even consider it theologically justified to commit sinful acts to serve the larger goal of harming perceived enemies of Islam. And most terrorist groups trying to infiltrate the US would logically follow a similar policy.

So pressuring people to step on the Koran as official policy (and "Do this, and we'll offer you a way out of that country we've wrecked" is pressure) wouldn't weed out the sleeper agents. It also wouldn't be any more effective at sorting out the sane and secular Arabs (unless by "sane and secular" you mean both atheist, and having no respect for religious traditions) than a "Not a fundie? Prove it! Piss on a crucifix!" test would do for Christians. Sufficiently desperate people would likely do it and hate themselves afterwards, and a great many of the sane and secular would take deep offense at the petty bullying (I know I'd be offended if someone tried to bully me into stamping on a Koran, and I'm neither religious at all, nor part of a predominately Muslim culture). Plus, the US government would be effectively waving a giant "WE REALLY DO HATE YOU FOR YOUR RELIGION!!!" sign at the Islamic world.

So, fun all around?

[ako]

Oh, and if you want my official permission to not care about human suffering, you can wait a good long time for that.

[Jesurgislac]

There was a legend in the 18th century (current at the time Jonathan Swift was writing Gulliver's Travels - he uses it in book 3, the one with the floating city) that the Japanese would only let Europeans enter/leave their country in safety if they would "trample the crucifix". *looks it up*

Yes, it's at the end of Part III. Interesting that the US is becoming culturally so similiar to Edo period Japan...

To this I added another petition, “that for the sake of my patron the king of Luggnagg, his majesty would condescend to excuse my performing the ceremony imposed on my countrymen, of trampling upon the crucifix: because I had been thrown into his kingdom by my misfortunes, without any intention of trading.” When this latter petition was interpreted to the Emperor, he seemed a little surprised; and said, “he believed I was the first of my countrymen who ever made any scruple in this point; and that he began to doubt, whether I was a real Hollander, or not; but rather suspected I must be a Christian. However, for the reasons I had offered, but chiefly to gratify the king of Luggnagg by an uncommon mark of his favour, he would comply with the singularity of my humour; but the affair must be managed with dexterity, and his officers should be commanded to let me pass, as it were by forgetfulness. For he assured me, that if the secret should be discovered by my countrymen the Dutch, they would cut my throat in the voyage.” I returned my thanks, by the interpreter, for so unusual a favour; and some troops being at that time on their march to Nangasac, the commanding officer had orders to convey me safe thither, with particular instructions about the business of the crucifix.

On the 9th day of June, 1709, I arrived at Nangasac, after a very long and troublesome journey. I soon fell into the company of some Dutch sailors belonging to the Amboyna, of Amsterdam, a stout ship of 450 tons. I had lived long in Holland, pursuing my studies at Leyden, and I spoke Dutch well. The seamen soon knew whence I came last: they were curious to inquire into my voyages and course of life. I made up a story as short and probable as I could, but concealed the greatest part. I knew many persons in Holland. I was able to invent names for my parents, whom I pretended to be obscure people in the province of Gelderland. I would have given the captain (one Theodorus Vangrult) what he pleased to ask for my voyage to Holland; but understanding I was a surgeon, he was contented to take half the usual rate, on condition that I would serve him in the way of my calling. Before we took shipping, I was often asked by some of the crew, whether I had performed the ceremony above mentioned? I evaded the question by general answers; “that I had satisfied the Emperor and court in all particulars.” However, a malicious rogue of a skipper went to an officer, and pointing to me, told him, “I had not yet trampled on the crucifix;” but the other, who had received instructions to let me pass, gave the rascal twenty strokes on the shoulders with a bamboo; after which I was no more troubled with such questions. (Part III, ch.XI)

[J]

There was a legend in the 18th century (current at the time Jonathan Swift was writing Gulliver's Travels - he uses it in book 3, the one with the floating city) that the Japanese would only let Europeans enter/leave their country in safety if they would "trample the crucifix". *looks it up*

Yeah, that's pretty much where I got the idea, via Samurai Champloo.

[J]

These 'religious' wars are never really about religion, they're about tribalism and identity, power, money, land, pride, and status.

Mmmhmm. You go on and think that.

[Jesurgislac]

J: Yeah, that's pretty much where I got the idea, via Samurai Champloo.

You do know that, as far as historians can establish, the ceremony of "trampling the crucifix" never existed? It was a European invention made up to traduce the Japanese nation?

[J]

You do know that, as far as historians can establish, the ceremony of "trampling the crucifix" never existed? It was a European invention made up to traduce the Japanese nation?

Read closer. Read again.

Me: "That's pretty much where I got the idea, via Samurai Champloo."

Now use your hands and fingers to work the Google button on the Internet machine to look up Samurai Champloo.

[Jesurgislac]

J: Read closer. Read again.

Write more clearly. Stop blaming others for your own communication failures.

[Jesurgislac]

J wrote: Here's how to rescue Riverbend the tiny minority of people she represents: Offer a U.S. passport and a free plane ticket to any Iraqi who will step on a Qur'an. Religiously discriminatory? Yes, I suppose so. But it should nicely filter out the sleeper agents and net us a new class of sane-and-secular Arab-American citizens.

After a succession of responses pointing out the classic errors in that line of thinking, J's response is to claim that we've misunderstood him/her/it and we need to read what he/she/it wrote again?

Okay. Here it is, again.

[J]

After a succession of responses pointing out the classic errors in that line of thinking, J's response is to claim that we've misunderstood him/her/it and we need to read what he/she/it wrote again?

Sigh. Okay, want me to spell it out? Samurai Champloo is a fictional series about fictional characters and fictional history. I took a fictional example from it and made a semi-fictional, pseudo-serious, quasi-dark-humor suggestion.

But you insisted that I was taking fake history seriously, even as I attributed my ideas to a CARTOON.

But I doubt that matters to you, Jesu. You have a pretty well-established record of chasing people down the thread, insisting they meant one thing when they clearly didn't. So yeah, play your little game and tell me how I'm clearly a colonialist, phobist monster.

[Jesurgislac]

I took a fictional example from it and made a semi-fictional, pseudo-serious, quasi-dark-humor suggestion.

And when people didn't laugh at your joke, you got tetchy and complained. Yeah, we got that. Tough.

[Ursula L]

Here's how to rescue Riverbend the tiny minority of people she represents: Offer a U.S. passport and a free plane ticket to any Iraqi who will step on a Qur'an. Religiously discriminatory? Yes, I suppose so. But it should nicely filter out the sleeper agents and net us a new class of sane-and-secular Arab-American citizens.

That might have worked before the invasion and occupation.

But at this point, you're going to have a fairly large group of non-religious patriots who are out for revenge for everything we've done. People with nothing left to loose, people who lost loved ones, people who just don't approve of having their homeland invaded.

You can't do insane things and expect the sane people to continue to like you...

[Michele]

J: > Offer a U.S. passport and a free plane ticket to any Iraqi who will step on a Qur'an.

So, that's the Richard Chamberlain/Shogun approach to immigration reform?