Some housekeeping

I thought I was done with the "Gay-Hatin' Gospel" series, but it seems not quite. First there are some questions and criticisms I'll need to address, and then there are a host of other factors and considerations that I hadn't thought of which arose in the comment threads.

In particular, Brel raised an excellent point about the way the obsession with homosexuality in evangelical churches is another manifestation (or, they would say, another "battlefront") in those churches' agenda of "supporting and reinforcing traditional gender roles." E.J. Graff seconds this point in a TPM Cafe essay titled "Trannies & lezzies & gays, oh my":

When there is discrimination against, or recoil from, lesbians and gay men, it’s not just because we fall in love with others of the same sex. It’s because we don’t neatly fit our gender identities; we’re often “genderqueer” as well. Our girls tend to be boyish; our boys tend to be girly. Not always, and not all of us. But gay men and lesbians who “pass” -- who are “straight-acting,” in the terminology, who more closely fit sex stereotypes (like me, despite my short hair) -- run into the least trouble on the job. It’s the fey men (and, depending on the situation, the butch women) who run into trouble. And that’s the ground on which they need the most protection: gender identity.

That deserves more attention and consideration, so I'll try to get to that soon.

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The consensus on using Intense Debate (a program designed to enhance comment sections) seems to be that while some of the features would be neat, more bells & whistles would mainly mean more hoops to jump through, so I'll try to err on the side of simplicity and say No, thank you, to their kind offer.

I will, however, continue to beg Typepad to upgrade the built-in comments function here. In particular, I'll keep asking for 1) the option of editing one's own comments after posting them; 2) the possibility of threading comments in longer discussions; and, especially, 3) the ability to close html tags in subsequent posts so that older and longer threads don't have to gravitate toward all bold, all italic ugliness.

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Please note that the previous post is titled "Go read hilzoy." This is something I say a lot here, and would probably say even more often if I posted more frequently.

That's something you should probably consider if you're wondering who to vote for in the 2007 Weblog Awards under the category of Best of the Top 1001-1750 Blogs.

It is, as they say (through clenched teeth), an honor just to be nominated. But I'm voting for Obsidian Wings. (Although Echidne of the Snakes is currently the top vote-getter, and those voters aren't wrong either.)

Comments

[ninjanun]

Oh, and I hope my above comments clarified why I would have no problem with a diversified staff at a sporting goods store, restaurant, etc.

Also: if a lingerie store DID hire a man, I'd let them help me, but I wouldn't let them into the dressing room while I was in a state of undress. Again, just more to do with what I consider appropriate...(doh! what is that called, anyway? I can't think of the appropriate word. It's on the tip of my tongue. Somebody help me out here.)

[A Texan in Bavaria]

I have lived in the Oberpfalz for three years, and have NEVER seen a male:

- bakery counter clerk
- grocery checker (but plenty of male stockers)
- Gasthaus waiter (unless it's the owner or MAYBE one of his sons)
- gas station clerk

Gender roles are still pretty traditionally defined around here. I should watch more carefully the next time I'm up in Braunschweig or Hannover.

[not_scottbot]

Texan in Bayern -
Thinking about your list, it seems essentially correct, even though I have seen exceptions in all the listed professions. But then, I don't live in Bavaria. And Bavaria is definitely the deep south of Germany.

As a sidenote - Germany is a fairly shockingly sexist society, something which is difficult to convey in just a few sentences, Pay discrimination is not only legal, it is considered beneficial, for example - men are workers, and women are mothers, which means that paying a man more just makes sense so he can put food on the table while mommy stays home. And since mommy gets paid time off (not up on the latest details), and she is paid less than daddy anyways, it is an easy choice to decide who gets to stay home and raise the children.

And if the term 'Rabenmutter' is something you haven't run into, explore the concept - if you want to be just a bit cruel, call a mother 'Rabenmutter' and see how she responds - it could be quite instructive, though also quite rude. German women are very defensive on the point, which is deeply embedded in the culture.

[Jeff]

if you want to be just a bit cruel, call a mother 'Rabenmutter' and see how she responds

Why it's bad to call a woman a "Raven Mother" is explained at Feministing, although she does not say whether it's worse than a Writing Desk Dad.

[not_scottbot]

I read the quick blurb, without bothering with the link - apart from not being able to stand the NYT's writing style, I never bother with registration.

This is a very contradictory aspect of Germany - on the one hand, that a child actually has a parent around most of the day for the first years of the their life is a very, very good thing. That it is almost always the mother is not necessarily such a good thing.

My wife and I split a job, so to speak, and it was fascinating to see how that worked out. Germany essentially has a 'mommy union' - men don't need to apply in the specialized field that only a mother can correctly handle (sexism works both ways here - a man dealing with a child is considered incompetent, at best). Unlike the U.S., at least in this region, a man raising a child is not considered anything much but a man raising a child, though the first assumption will be that the mother has died (which was the thought of a neighbor's weekly cleaning woman when she saw me at home over several weeks, without ever seeing my wife who was working).

A lot of the American overtones of a man dealing with children thankfully don't exist - Germany in my eyes is a much healthier society, though its dark undercurrents can never be completely dismissed - for example, a certain tendency to pile on the weakest members of a group.

I could go on, but the idea that a child should be cared for is good - the idea that a mother is the only person suitable for the job not so good.

[Tonio]

I think the behavior may be innate. My (ex) stepfather is gay, and he is rather fey.

I'm not claiming that all fey behavior is deliberate. I'm saying that very extreme examples of fey behavior seem too unreal to be innate.

[not_scottbot]

Tonio-
a very open question. I know a boy, roughly the age of my daughter (they seem to be good friends at school when not having spats, and his sister is also a friend of my daughter), who is about as flamboyant as you can get, but being very roughly ten years old, I don't think 'flaming' is accurate.

And I mean flamboyant - pink shirts, generally attentive taste in clothing, mincing walk, hand gestures, even a sort of 'special' speaking style. If he lived in the U.S., I would actually fear for his safety in a number of social settings, though he would fit in among theater people very comfortably.

Obviously, a 10 year old can assume any number of social traits, but in his case, they seem to be how he is, and not how he designed hmself to be.

If he was 15, you would also think it was on purpose, but at 10? I just don't know.

[A Texan in Bavaria]

not_scottbot: I'm trying to reconcile myself to the legally-tolerated sexism. I currently work (indirectly) for the US Army, so am still accustomed to any questions about family, personal life, etc. being strictly off-limits for an employer during the interview and for my gender being a protected category, in general. I wish to get out of this line of work and get a "real" job, but in doing so, realize that employers will look and see a childless woman nearing 30... uh oh. My boyfriend's younger sister, who just turned 30, has an architecture degree, but is working for Deutsche Bahn (Germany's HUGE rail company), doing logistics. Why? Architecture firms, typically small operations, are scared to death to hire young women, as, in their eyes, too many will leave within a year or two to have children.

I learned what "Rabenmutter" meant a while ago. My boyfriend and his sister had a "Tagesmutter" (nanny) for a few years, after their mother went back to work. I'm sure she caught less flak for it in Braunschweig than she would have down here.

I'm an IT gal; from what I gather, my best employment prospects in this region, aside from the US Army, are Adidas, where English fluency is a must, and Siemens, which brings in employees from all over the world (including the US). Otherwise, I need to figure out what services I am best positioned to offer as a Freiberuflerin (freelancer) and plan to stay home with those kiddos. The German school system seems to be wonderful for families where one well-educated parent CAN spend the afternoons with the kids, working on homework, but a bit dicey for everyone else.

We'll see. I hear that if I'm in the German system long enough before having those theoretical children, I'll get 2/3 of whatever net (after tax) income tax loss I sustain for quitting work or downscaling my job for up to three years. Hm. I think I'd rather have the laws not permitting an employer to discriminate against me because of my gender.

(apologies to the other Slackers for the German-centric threadjack)

[Angelika]

Texan in Bavaria: - bakery counter clerk

My brother worked as a bakery counter clerk for a couple of years, and he had male collegues, too. That was in Hamburg, though.

[A Texan in Bavaria]

Angelika: I've never been to Hamburg - I should go sometime :) Is that where you grew up?

[not_scottbot]

Texan in Bayern -
one of the things that struck me is the essentially mandatory picture on the job application/resume. Why? I must admit, the few times I have sent out an application, there is no picture included - neither is my religion, as many people around here include in their personal data.

However, there is a real tension between the economic logic which a business faces, the legal framework for a parent (99% or so mothers, though the laws are absolutely gender neutral) to leave the workplace, and what this means when hiring a woman. Speaking from a strict sense of costs, a woman will be more of an economic burden on a company than a man, since men essentially never stay home with their children, though they are legally entitled to.

I can understand the company's 'dilemna' objectively, and it goes to the fairly inescapable fact that for the first few months of an infant's life, a nursing woman is a major benefit to that infant's future. This is only the first few months though, and it seems pretty minor. However, many mothers simply slide comfortably out of the workplace, have a couple of kids, then no longer consider themselves 'fit' to compete for a job.

The only way to solve this dilemna is for German society to change, which is not really a strong part of Germany. On the other hand, the socialists/Greens did make some solid improvements to the legal framework in terms of child raising, and if more women demanded that the father stayed home, even if it cost a bit in terms of lost income, the economic burden from a company's perspective would no longer be concentrated among females, essentially from their 20s to their 40s. To see a bit how that has worked out, Sweden is pretty interesting. France uses another system, essentially state subsidized day care, which allows women more freedom, but has the disadvantage of reducing the time of a children with parent(s).

[Raka]

cjmr and ninjanun: Thanks for the responses, and I hope I didn't come off as completely sneeringly didactic. What I failed to mention is that I've been in roughly analogous situations and been terribly uncomfortable myself. I can explain the discomfort in ways that sound completely reasonable, but they really don't hold up to rigorous logical scrutiny. It really is a gut-level reaction, and the explanations I have are really after-the-fact rationalizations of the reaction. Not that I assume my experience to be universal, but I also don't think it's unique.

I use these experiences to try to empathize with people who strongly object to being obliged to shower with homosexuals, or allow their children to be cared for by people of other religions, or share a drinking fountain with other "races". There are some significant differences in degree-- my avoidance of gender-discomforting businesses contributes to the difficulty women may have in getting such jobs, but it's a big difference between that and making it illegal for them to hold the jobs at all-- but I think the reaction is a closer relative to other forms of discrimination than I might like to admit.

[cjmr's husband]

obliged to shower with homosexuals

Am I the only one in the world who thinks it is appalling that anyone is ever obliged to shower publicly???

Granted, putting private shower stalls in the high school gyms would be a very expensive proposition for the school districts, as the coaches would have to install a dozen hidden cameras instead of just one.

[Raka]

cjmr's husband: Am I the only one in the world who thinks it is appalling that anyone is ever obliged to shower publicly?

Eh. I think nudity taboos are something I wouldn't mind seeing in the dustbin of history. And other cultures manage public bathing without significant trauma. On the other hand, since American culture does come with such a hefty grab-bag of social pressures and outright neuroses related to body-image, forcing public nudity in some particular situations is probably not the best path to a healthier overall perspective.

[Angelika]

Texan in Bavaria: I've never been to Hamburg - I should go sometime :) Is that where you grew up?

Yes. Hamburg is a wonderful city, as long you don't mind rainy weather too much.

non_scottbot: However, many mothers simply slide comfortably out of the workplace, have a couple of kids, then no longer consider themselves 'fit' to compete for a job.

And, why not? Life is more than just holding a job. However, considering how low birthrates are in Germany, most women do not have a couple of kids.

[not_scottbot]

Angelika -
I don't think there is anything wrong with a parent leaving the workplace to be more involved in their children's lives, or for two parents to work half time. What I do have a bit of a problem, as a man who raises children here and only works part time (my wife works too - normally, only one of us is home during the day), is the fact that the vast majority of people picking that option are female, and as Sweden shows, there is no reason why this must be so.

[Angelika]

not_scottbot: is the fact that the vast majority of people picking that option are female, and as Sweden shows, there is no reason why this must be so.

In my line of work, there is a good reason for it: I used to work in a biotech lab and handled on daily basis mutagenic substances - if I'd be still working there, I would be not be allowed to even enter the lab, while being pregnant, and I wouldn't fancy the idea of working there, while nursing either. - Office jobs should not impose such difficulties, though.

[not_scottbot]

Though this may be outdated, I had a sister in law working as an engineer at a DOE nuclear plant, and even five months into her pregnancy, she was still doing inspections and such. She couldn't imagine my surprise at this fact. And though radioactivity is not exactly something to casually dismiss, the real problems in my eyes were all the heavy metals and other contaminants in the dust - the facility was from the 1950s, and it had been in operation for decades. Records from its first couple of decades of operation no longer existed, assuming they had been written in the first place.

Your point is valid, of course.

[Johnny Coelacanth]

It's another minor injustice that Slacktivist is not nominated as best religious blog. I've never heard of a majority of the nominees, but that's par for the course.