Have you heard this?

I'm guessing a professional political consultant would advise against this, but here's something like what I'd like to hear each of the leading Democratic presidential candidates say.

From Barack Obama:

"Sen. Clinton would make a fine president. Now I know there are some voters who might not want to vote for a woman for president. If that's you, if you're going to vote for me because you just don't want to vote for a woman, then let me say this to you: Don't vote for me either. I don't want your vote."

From Hillary Clinton:

"Sen. Obama would make a fine president. Now I know there are some voters who might not want to vote for a black man for president. If that's you, if you're going to vote for me because you just don't want to vote for a black man, then let me say this to you: Don't vote for me either. I don't want your vote."

The professional political consultant might even offer an explanation for why that's not something either of them should say. I'm not sure I would understand that explanation. That's probably why I'm not a highly paid professional political consultant.

(It's also possible that one or both candidates have already said something similar to the above. If so, please point me to it. I would find that immensely heartening.)

Comments

[damnedyankee]

Hullabaloo sums up the case pretty well for why no liberal or centrist should vote for McCain better than I ever could, starting with today's gaffe over Iraq.

Caveat: Liberal blog. 'Ware the cooties.

[Izzy]

The primary example of sexism toward Hillary I've seen* comes from other women, annoyingly enough. "She stayed with a man who cheated on her! I can't respect a woman like that!" and other such bullshit. As if people didn't have their own reasons for tolerating infidelity; as if those reasons, or that infidelity, was anyone's business but that of the people in said marriage.

*Mostly because I'm fortunate enough to live in a liberal section of the country, and to avoid the hell out of conservative media.

[Badger3k]

Way too many comments to read through as the thunderstorm moves in, so I'll be quick - if you read any political blogs, it seems that a sizeable part of both Clinton (25% IIRC) and Obama (no number, but they exist) supporters would either not vote, or vote for McCain if the other candidate wins. Clinton has been campaigning on how McCain would be a better president than Obama. Given the "Win at all costs" mentality that many politicians have, what you propose in the initial post is a pipe dream - a nice one, but still a puff of smoke.

[Jesurgislac]

Looking back, I see I confused Yawzoa with Robb - sorry about that. :-( (FWIW, it was Yawzoa who claimed to have been a Clinton hate since the 1990s: it's Robb who's claiming to have been a political ignoramus prior to 2007 or thereabouts.

[Robb]

it's Robb who's claiming to have been a political ignoramus prior to 2007 or thereabouts.

Actually, it was about 2004, when I moved back to the United States. I was pretty ambivalent towards the Clintons at the time, but looking back, Bill did plenty of things to earn the highest exiting approval rating for a president.

[hapax]

Clinton has been campaigning on how McCain would be a better president than Obama.

Although this saddens me, it wouldn't particularly surprise me. But I'd like to see a cite, if you have one.

[hapax]

Ah, I found it -- I assume you're referring to this.

Saddening, but not surprising. But also, to be blunt, technically true. If you don't think that McCain isn't going to pull the Reagan/Rove trick of turning his biggest drawbacks (his age and his years inside the Beltway) into a weapon against Obama ("I will not hold his youth and inexperience against him"), you don't know much about U.S. politics.

But it didn't need to be said by Clinton.

[Consumer Unit 5012]

Democrats are as much to blame

Not even slightly. Go do some reading on... was it Newt Gingrich who introduced the GOP to neuro-linguistic programming in their ongoing efforts to demonize everyone politically "left" of Spiro Agnew?

And despite what I'm sure is coming next, Ann Coulter and Michael Moore are NOT morally equivalent. One says it would be hilarious if someone mass-murdered the staff of New York Times, the other says the Iraq War was based on lies.

I've spent entirely too much of the last decade listening to the GOP screaming that anyone who doesn't genuflect towards Crawford five times daily is an EVIL BABY-MURDERING TERRORIST-LOVER WHO HATES AMERICA AND FREEDOM(tm), and I'm sick of it. The Bush Administration used 9/11 as an excuse to binge on Unlimited Power, and a gullible public, a cowardly press and an even more craven opposition party LET them. Now the public's FINALLY coming out of their stupor, and we've got a change to let the GOP sit in the drunk tank (metaphorically speaking) for a few years and get the poisons out of their system while us grown-ups try to clear up the mess they made playing soldiers.

I think the metaphor's gone a bit off the rails, but I hope my point is clear. At the moment, I don't trust ANY Republican to do a better job than Bush.

[Robb]

I hope my point is clear. At the moment, I don't trust ANY Republican to do a better job than Bush.

Fair enough - I think at his best, John McCain leaves doubts about his ability to lead a post-George W. Bush America, and while I'm a bit less quick to condemn him than others might be, I'm still happily voting for the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever seen Barack Obama.

[Jeff]

I assume you're referring to this.

“I have a lifetime of experience I will bring to the White House."

False. And she's had to lie about it, claiming to have urged action in Rwanda when **NO** contemporary account shows such urging. And part of her "experience" is her votes on the AUMF and the Bankruptcy Bill.

"I know Senator McCain [the presumptive Republican nominee] has a lifetime of experience he will bring to the White House."

False. He's had 8 years of being consistantly wrong -- "experience" only counts when you put it to use. And his "experience" has convinced him that torture is morally and legally acceptable.

"And Senator Obama has a speech he made in 2002″

And experience in voter's rights, civil rights, African politics, etc etc etc.

This is why some Dems (not me) won't vote for her, especially if she "cheats".

[aunursa]

The irony is that the very posts venemously rejecting the idea that Democrats are as much to blame as Republicans for partisan polarization demonstrate the truth of that equivalence.

[Jeff]

I think at his best, John McCain leaves doubts about his ability to lead a post-George W. Bush America, and while I'm a bit less quick to condemn him than others might be

What more do you need? How about this? 5 years into the War in Iraq, Mccain can't still can't tell Sunnis from Shiites. As hilzoy calls him, he is Clueless.

[Jesurgislac]

Definitely time for another aRA meeting (aunursa Responders Anonymous). Who's got snacks, who's got coffee?

[pat greene]

Jesurgislac,

Yeah, it stinks. I think either they should all be asked to release their tax records or none should. Going after Clinton, while totally expected given the rabidly unfair treatment she and her spouse have gotten from some segments of the media over the past ten years, is ridiculous.

That said, I am utterly infuriated by the claims of some of her supporters (seen most recently in the letter section of the San Jose Mercury News last week) that one can't support Barack Obama and claim to be a feminist. Because, of course, getting a woman President simply trumps all other considerations, such as whether she represents my values (she doesn't), or I think she was right on the war (she wasn't, and has never done an adequate job of explaining or repudiating that failure), or even if I think she'd be a good President (I'm not sure I do, although she'd be a damn sight better than McCain). (Obama was not my first choice, either: I was an Edwards supporter.) I think she'd make a good Senate Majority Leader, though -- God knows she's smart enough and plenty tough.

[pat greene]

You know, ananursa, claiming that Democrats are just as responsible for "partisan polarization" as Republicans is like telling a kid who's been bullied for years and who works up the courage to start fighting back that he's as responsible for the situation as the creep who started the whole mess to begin with.

Jesu? I make really killer brownies.

[aunursa]

pat greene: I hear the exact same complaints about Democrats on conservative sites: They're polarizing, they're all liars, they steal elections, they're evil, they're power-hungry, they're stupid, they're incompetent, etc, etc. Each side brings volumes of evidence to support their biases and demonize their opponents.

Every one considers himself to be closer to the political center than he actually is. The further away from the center you are, the less you are aware of how extreme your positions really are ... and the less accurate your perceptions are of the other side of the spectrum. And another great irony I've noticed is that the further you are from the center, the more you begin to resemble the other side of the spectrum.

[aunursa]

Jesurgislac: Definitely time for another aRA meeting (aunursa Responders Anonymous). Who's got snacks, who's got coffee?

You'll have a break next week. I'll be on vacation enjoying the Mexican Riviera ... having too much fun to bother with the internet.

[aunursa]

That said, I am utterly infuriated by the claims of some of her supporters (seen most recently in the letter section of the San Jose Mercury News last week) that one can't support Barack Obama and claim to be a feminist. Because, of course, getting a woman President simply trumps all other considerations

Reminds me of NOW-NY's scathing attack on Ted Kennedy for endorsing Obama:

Senator Kennedy Betrays Women by Not Standing
For Hillary Clinton for President
January 28, 2008

Women have just experienced the ultimate betrayal. Senator Kennedy’s endorsement of Hillary Clinton’s opponent in the Democratic presidential primary campaign has really hit women hard. Women have forgiven Kennedy, stuck up for him, stood by him, hushed the fact that he was late in his support of Title IX, the ERA, and the Family and Medical Leave Act to name a few. Women have buried their anger that his support for the compromises in No Child Left Behind and the Medicare bogus drug benefit brought us the passage of these flawed bills. We have thanked him for his ardent support of many civil rights bills, BUT women are always waiting in the wings.

And now the greatest betrayal! We are repaid with his abandonment! He’s picked the new guy over us. He’s joined the list of progressive white men who can’t or won’t handle the prospect of a woman president who is Hillary Clinton...

[Jesurgislac]

Jesu? I make really killer brownies.

*pours coffee*

[MikhailBorg]

I can contribute a yellow layer cake with cream cheese frosting and little suspended Ghiradelli chocolate chips.

(Really, I just made it. Turned out better than I thought it would. Those Good Eats episodes must be sinking in.)

[Jeff]

they're all liars, they steal elections, they're evil, they're power-hungry, they're stupid, they're incompetent

Except that we can document the lies (Downing St Memos, WMDs), the election-stealing (Florida 2000), the evil (4,000 dead Americans, 1,000,000 dead Iraqis, New Orleans), the power-hunger (signing statements), the stupidity ("Heck of job, Brownie"; Medal of Honor for Tenet) and the incompetance (see all the above).

[Anon]

Clearly, we're all forgetting what's really important. This is what's really important.

[Bugmaster]

I think Jesu and the others are being prematurely optimistic. My fear is that the Democrats have already handed Republicans the presidency -- due to their bitter infighting over the Democratic nomination. In their race to out-smear each other, they've alienated a bunch of moderate voters, who are quite willing to say, "ok, Clinton and Obama are both scum, I'm voting for McCain".

[aunursa]

Jeff: Except that we can document the lies ...

And you think the Republicans can't?

[Yawzoa]

\"convinced she made the $5M by assassinating Vincent Foster.\"

Nah, she did that purely for sport.

[Jeff]

And you think the Republicans can't?

In my post, I pointed out MAJOR examples of lies, evil, stupidity, etc. Feel free to attempt same for Democrats, especially those with any power. I'll even let you go back 16 years, to include all the Clinton years.

[Geds]

Definitely time for another aRA meeting (aunursa Responders Anonymous). Who's got snacks, who's got coffee?

I've actually made it a point to obey the charter for the last couple of days.

I'll bring the Johnnie Walker Black, if anybody's interested...

[Robb]

I just came across this, and thought it appropriate of where this discussion has ended up going. (I'm eagerly awaiting the book that's excerpted from).

Feel free to attempt same for Democrats, especially those with any power. I'll even let you go back 16 years, to include all the Clinton years.

I think you're missing his point - there are people out there who can & will find such things for any group, regardless of what the group in question may feel about their own actions (Example: Rabid Republicans will point to the House version of FISA and say "THEY'RE TRYING TO LET THE TERRORISTS WIN!", while most Democrats will calmly & quizically say, "No... we're trying to stop the President from abusing the Constitution"). I sincerely doubt aunursa or anyone else that reads this blog is going to be as hypercritical of the Democratic leadership of the past few decades as would any neocon, but if you look & listen to folks such as [shudder] Adam Yoshina, they'll gladly do such sifting through the trash for any fragment of "sin" from a liberal.

*****

Definitely time for another aRA meeting (aunursa Responders Anonymous). Who's got snacks, who's got coffee?

As aunursa's semi-official alternate-Universe sock puppet, I'll be happy to bring Wookie Cookies (except I substitute powdered Nesquik for granulated sugar: makes it more chocolatey).

[signthelist]

I will be so glad when this whole business is over. I don't like it when politics feel dirty. Even if in the grand scheme of things, the two Dems are good.

[aunursa]

Jeff: In my post, I pointed out MAJOR examples of lies, evil, stupidity, etc. Feel free to attempt same for Democrats, especially those with any power. I'll even let you go back 16 years, to include all the Clinton years.

(1) I'm not a conservative, and (2) it would be pointless, because you would dispute any examples of liberal mischief that conservatives cite. Just as the conservatives would dispute most if not all of the examples that you cite. The argument over which side is responsible for the partisan polarization is itself polarizing: both sides claim that they're right and the other side is wrong. Both sides are equally to blame.

[aunursa]

I've got an alternate-universe sock-puppet. It doesn't get any better than that!

[dr ngo]

aunursa: both sides claim that they're right and the other side is wrong. Both sides are equally to blame.

Only if you're incapable of reviewing the evidence and making up your own mind.

I used to get this from my first-year history students a lot. When they realized that there were conflicting interpretations of many (all?) historical events, instead of the single "correct" interpretations they had been taught in school, some of them simply panicked and froze. No one had ever taught them how to evaluate evidence and reach a conclusion based on reason - worse, no one had ever taught them that they ought to try.

It's not always easy, but it's a worthier effort than turning in papers that say "A says X and B says Y. The End" or - in this case - standing on the sidelines muttering "A plague on both your houses!"

[Jeff]

Robb: aunursa said "I hear the exact same complaints about Democrats on conservative sites". He didn't say that the conservatives are grasping at straws, or that these sites are run by narrow-minded, lying assholes. He, in fact, seemed ti think that these "complaints" lent credence to the idea that both sides were equally to blame.

He's wrong. Fortunately, he's used to it.

==============================

I'm not a conservative

On many issues, and your adulation of John McSame, you sure could have fooled me. On one of the defining issues of our time (guess which one, dancer), you're as conservative as they get. If you truly believe that waterboarding is torture, you will denounce McCain and vote for whichever Democrat will make it illegal.

Just as the conservatives would dispute most if not all of the examples that you cite.

Because they are liars, incompetent and evil. They have disputed all the cites I made. Doesn't make them any more correct (or smarter) than a Flat Earther.

[Jeff]

you would dispute any examples of liberal mischief that conservatives cite

Not if they're not talking out of their ass, I won't. But the odds of that are slim to none. (The Conversion of OCSteve on ObWi was a mighty thing to watch.)

[malpollyon]

"(The Conversion of OCSteve on ObWi was a mighty thing to watch.)"

Link?
I've only glanced at ObWi in passing but I loves me a good conversion story.

[Jesurgislac]

Well, I wouldn't say OCSteve was converted. He still identifies as a conservative. Like most intelligent conservatives who have not completely closed their minds to information, OCSteve was convinced - mostly by Hilzoy! - that despite Kerry being a lying coward who traduced good American soldiers fighting for their country in Vietnam (OCSteve believes in the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth) he was still a better option for President than George W. Bush. I like OCSteve - the Quaker terminology for how I feel about him is "our friend is sadly misguided" - and respect him considerably more than I do the conservatives who went right on supporting Bush for President until the 2004 election was safely over, and then let themselves admit that they knew the Bush administration's support for torture and other vile and wrong things. (At least one conservative did have a major conversion scene in which he admitted "Gosh, yes, torture is wrong and the US has been torturing people... in 2005. For which he received much praise, which was very Christian in a Receive the Prodigal Son kind of way, but was quite beyond me.)

[not_scottbot]

Lee Atwater? Part owner of Red, Hot, and Blue in Arlington - not bad BBQ. As noted in the story of the company -
'In the late 1980’s three Southerners and a transplanted Yankee longed for authentic southern barbeque and the great blues music they all loved. Unable to find that winning combination anywhere in the Washington, DC area [liars - they just had to drive down 123 around Lorton, or Rt 1 - but I won't get into any religious BBQ style wars here] they decided the only way to get it done was to open a restaurant of their own. That first Red Hot & Blue restaurant was conceived and opened its doors to rave reviews in Arlington, VA just a few short miles from our nations capital where three of the founders worked on Capitol Hill. One of the original investor/founders was then-U.S. Rep. Don Sundquist of Memphis, who served 12 years in the House of Representatives and eight years as governor of Tennessee. Another original investor was the late Lee Atwater, a blues musician and legendary political figure who managed George H.W. Bush’s successful race for the presidency and served as chairman of the Republican National Committee. It was just a group of good ole boys who wanted to eat good barbeque, listen to some good rhythm and blue tunes and make friends in the process; they were successful beyond their wildest imagination.'

http://www.redhotandblue.com/ourstory.htm

Also the man that gave a great explanation of the southern strategy-
'You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "nigger"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites.

And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger."'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

See - Atwater was doing away with racial problems through the use of abstraction and coding, while serving up a mean Memphis style BBQ. Atwater - post-racial before Obama made it fashionable.

I think that I'm getting sick - must be something in Atwater's special sauce, the one that good ole boys know by heart.

[aunursa]

dr ngo: Only if you're incapable of reviewing the evidence and making up your own mind.

Have you reviewed conservative blogs for the arguments and evidence to prove that Democrats are all liars who steal elections, are evil, are power-hungry, are stupid, and are incompetent?

[aunursa]

Jeff: On many issues, and your adulation of John McSame, you sure could have fooled me. On one of the defining issues of our time (guess which one, dancer), you're as conservative as they get. If you truly believe that waterboarding is torture

I have stated several times, including on a recent thread, that I oppose waterboarding under any circumstances.

Because they are liars, incompetent and evil. They have disputed all the cites I made. Doesn't make them any more correct (or smarter) than a Flat Earther.

Ho hum. Similarly, conservatives will dismiss liberals as liars, incompetent, and evil who merely dispute all of the citations they, the conservatives, make.

[Jesurgislac]

You know, it'll be Easter soon. Would other members of aRA object to my bringing hot cross buns to the meetings? Spicy, sticky, studded with currants?

[not_scottbot]

To stay au currant - that is a generally British word, while in Australia, they are mainly sultanas. In America, they are also mainly sultanas, but no one calls them that - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultana_(grape)

[Jesurgislac]

No, Scott - actually, they're all dried vine fruits (ie, all dried grapes). This site outlines which grapes are used to produce sultanas, which raisins, and which currants. If currants are unusual in the US, it's not because it's a "British word" but because currants are dried from the Corinth grape, which is grown pretty much exclusively in Greece, and so is probably not readily available in US groceries - whereas California is listed as one of the world's main raisin grape producers.

[Scotts of Sullenness]

The rabbit raced the tortoise
You know the tortoise won
And Mr Rabbit came in last
A tired, hot, cross bun.

[Lauren]

You can get currants in the US, or at least something that they call currants. Zante currants.

[Froborr]

Actually, Red Hot & Blue is pretty decent barbecue. There was one a few blocks from my college, great for catering a big meeting of the newspaper. Still, you're better off getting the dry rub to go, so you can put Sweet Baby Ray's on it, than using their sauce.

[Jeff]

I've only glanced at ObWi in passing but I loves me a good conversion story.

It's scattered over multiple posts over the past year or two. He started out very gung-ho pro-war and anti-government and has been convinced that hilzoy, publius, et al aren't "Dirty Fuckin' Hippies" as some seem to see progressives. The last turn was not only against McSame (which was major) but towards Obama (which was huge).

In the late 1980’s three Southerners and a transplanted Yankee longed for authentic southern barbeque and the great blues music they all loved

From DC, you can get good Virginia BBQ, and it's not that far to North Carolina, which has the best BBQ anywhere! Tangy, slow-cooked, wet (none of this "dry-rub" nonsense), cooked in a half of a 10-gallon tank -- yum!

Have you reviewed conservative blogs for the arguments and evidence to prove that Democrats are all liars who steal elections, are evil, are power-hungry, are stupid, and are incompetent?

I have Sadly No and The Poor Man to do that disgusting job for me. I try to avoid places where the commentariat says things like "[Democrat] is a traitor and should be hung/shot/killed in some manner", and not for shit like war crimes.

I have stated several times, including on a recent thread, that I oppose waterboarding under any circumstances.

I love how you chopped off the end of my statement, so you wouldn't have to answer it. "I believe water-boarding is torture, but I'm not going to do a thing to stop it!" Dance, torture-monkey, dance!

Similarly, conservatives creationists will dismiss liberals scientists as liars, incompetent, and evil

Fixed for you.

You have nothing to back up your claims, as usual. I'm off to the aRA. have fun doing your dance.

[One omitted / can screw up your whole post. Thanks, Preview!)

[hapax]

Mmm. Hot cross buns are nice, Jesu, but for Easter we generally go absolutely bonkers on the pasties. This year I am planning on blueberry gingerbread, puff pastry stuffed with almond cream, jam cardomom tartlets, and of course Easter bread (can't find a good recipe online -- if it doesn't take three days to make, it isn't really tsoureki) braided into Byzantine crosses and studded with crimson boiled eggs.

And then there's dinner -- lamb filled with rosemary and garlic with rosemary and slow roasted until it falls off the bone, tiny little baby potatoes boiled then sauteed in butter and garlic, crisp fresh asparagus barely steamed then strewn with toasted sesame, dolmas stuffed with pilaf and currants and pine nuts...

There will be far more than we can possibly eat. Y'all can have the next aRA meeting at my house.

[Lauren]

hapax, I'm coming over to your place for dinner Easter Sunday. You don't even have to tell me where you live; I'll just follow my nose.

[Jesurgislac]

Mmmm.
*looks out passport*
Okay, I'm on the next plane.

[Jeff]

hapax: Surely there's a place for hamentashen:
"Hamantashen are generally made by rolling the dough thin, cutting it into circles (of various sizes), placing filling in the center, and folding in three sides. The dough may be a cookie dough with orange juice added, citrus zest added, or a yeast dough. The traditional filling is made with poppy seeds, but they are also made with many different flavors, including prunes, nut, date, apricot, fruit preserves, chocolate, or even caramel or cheese."

Purim is tomorrow. Everyone sound your graggers when the current Hamans spew their venom!