« America to Americans | Main | A noble mind o'erthrown »

Mar 07, 2008

Comments

I'm wondering why one- and only one- reporter is allowed at the Super Special Security Council Meeting. I've been to the place, both as a tourist and as a Model United Nations participant (although I wasn't on the mock Security Council, which actually got to hold a session USING THE ACTUAL ROOM), and I can tell you that there is plenty of area available for the press, even if they can't videotape anything in it (not to mention that they are going to supposedly be holding a press conference afterwards anyways). Did some conniving executive at Global Weekly use the Big Event as an excuse to constitute a massive hostile takeover of all of Global Weekly's competitors (including the New York Times, for example)?

anti-miracles: this is actually what happens in "The Christ Clone Trilogy." Christopher Goodman (the clone of Christ) is an undersecretary at the U. N. He goes off into the desert for forty days and talks with his father. When he returns, he possesses a new spiritual aura and he has the ability to heal. The world is awed by his compassion, his gentleness, and grace. He comes back from the dead and throws himself off the pinnacle of the temple in Jerusalem. You get really confused.

I think L&J would say that this is the type of world we live in - a world filled with God's interventions, and demonic harm. After all, L got a good parking spot this morning - only a Not-RTC could possibly fail to see that this is a sign of divine grace. But the light at the corner was red rather than green - obviously the work of a demon against god's messanger!

By the bye, what do you make of the charges in the press of late that Barack Obama has mind-control capabilities similar to those of Nicolae in "Left Behind"?

Boze.
cite please. and the Global Weekly does not count.

Nobody *ever* called them "stews".

"This is the world the way we've always wanted it and hoped it would be."

What, a world without children?

"There could be a compelling story in the tragedy of an honest and sincere man who sought unlimited power in the hopes of achieving unlimited good, of fixing the world through brute force."

That reminds me of the plot of Superman: Red Son, where Superman's pod lands in the USSR instead of Kansas. He still tries to fix the unhappiness and injustice in the world, but in the process becomes a totalitarian dictator.

"There could be a compelling story in the tragedy of an honest and sincere man who sought unlimited power in the hopes of achieving unlimited good, of fixing the world through brute force."

sounds oddly like the last eight years

I know what's coming because I read the books (and skimmed a lot of the series). For the first I actually disagree with Fred that the use of super-naturalism is an "offense" of the book.

Don't some genres start off with realism, in fact it can go on for a while, and then BAM! There's the first supernatural thing which tips you off THIS IS A SCIENCE FICTION. How long into The Green Mile by Stephen King did it take before the real supernatural nature of John Coffey's powers become expoused? I thought it was a while, and, other than for the fact you were reading STEPHEN KING, there wasn't a lot of hint it was sci-fi genre.

I think the introduction of Caparthia's supernatural powers actually *isn't* an offense of writing. I suspect LaHaye and Jenkins were in a bit of a moral quandry. If they presupposed that the only way Caparthia ROSE to power was through supernatural powers doesn't that supplimate the "free will" part of their message.

The Devil doesn't work because he hypotizes us. He works because "we" sin. We "choose" to sin. So a mass hypotisism of the planet would, I don't know, undermine their message I think.

Is it too much to ask the Antichrist to have read the Evil Overlord Listeither version)

Seriously, Vladimir Alps uses his Evil Magic Powerz as well as the Jedi in the Star Wars Prequels used the force.

As far as Obama's messianic powers:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/23/wUS123.xml

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120240722108951205.html?mod=Best+of+the+Web+Today

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1710721,00.html

http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/11/opinion/11krugman.html&OQ=_rQ3D3Q26hpQ26orefQ3DsloginQ26orefQ3Dslogin&OP=7f40116fQ2FeQ7EJcedi_EGiiQ5EYeYHHQ3FeHYeQ2FQ2FeiQ5B@!@i!eQ2FQ2FbGpQ5DPN!BaQ5EPw

I'm sorry, I forgot to add that that was me in the previous post :)

"Plus everyone who would have had some moral objection to his sexual escapades disintegrated last week. If he wanted to Nicolae could Casanova his way through the Manhattan phone book (alphabetically, of course), sweet-talking women in nine languages (eight of which are soon to be forbidden)."

"But even though he could have any woman in the world, the only one he wants is Hattie. Just as the only reporter he wants present at his big meeting is Buck and, later in the series, the only pilot he wants to hire is, yep, Rayford Steele. There are still 4 billion people on earth, but Carpathia is working closely with the authors to ensure that only a handful of them are ever involved in this story."

Brilliant, as always.

"Why doesn't he ask her himself? What am I now, a pimp?"

Every day, Buck be hustlin'

I don't have a problem with Nicky's superpowers. The LB-verse, like the Buffyverse, is pretty clearly just the sort of world where things like this happen. If we can accept the Miracle of the Nukes, the trip-and-die guys, and the Rapture itself, then I don't see what the grounds are for rejecting Satanic mind control. It doesn't seem qualitatively different from anything else in Left Behind (or, for that matter, the Bible itself).

It might just be my atheistic perspective, but the distinction between Godly and non-Godly superpowers, which Fred seems to perceive, is not clear to me at all.

In the hands of someone competent, this could actually be an effective strategy. Take a world so soaked in complacency that a life-altering supernatural disaster barely fazes it. Suck out anything resembling the divine spark of personality from the populace. Batter through the most featureless, desperately dull prose you can manage. Harp on the mundane until the audience forgets there's any such thing as scope or imagination.

Then have the devil turn it all on its head.

These are characters who can only survive in their own crippling, myopic boxes. Give them just a glimpse that everything they know is wrong, and they will go mad.

Hmm. Now I want to write that.

Yet another for the Great Big List of Missed Opportunities.

Also, while I'm at it, here's another shout out to Praline, for a brilliant example of delving into the fascinating social repercussions of a huge supernatural phenomenon. I just started Benighted, and I'm enjoying the hell out of it. Thanks!

(Makes one wonder what they think all that business with the cross was about.)

Haven't you seen Gibson's Passion? God is saying he's willing to smack the bejeezus out of his own kid, so the rest of us better damn well watch our collective step.

"Listen, Carpathia wants you here Monday morning."

Aren't they currently at the Global Weekly? Is Nicolae convening his security council at the Global Weekly? This book can't even keep setting straight.

Normally, I'd agree that world leaders "can't be out hustling up dates," but there's nothing normal about Carpathia's position.

Even if Carpathia was dog ugly, and didn't posses magic powers he could probably leverage his new unquestioned power into landing some less than scrupulous ladies. Hell his powers are so sweeping he could order someone to go out with him, "Would you like to go out with Chairman Carpathia?" "No thanks," "Then you are under arrest for the crime of defying the Chairman, you are hereby sentenced to 3 dates with his eminence Chairman Carpathia, dinner and a movie, if you value your life."

"C'mon, Buck. It's not like that. Lonely guy in a position like this? He can't be out hustling up dates. ..."

So lets get this straight:

Nicky Sierra Nevada can't use his mojo to get a UNANIMOUS vote to become Supreme Evil Overlord of the Entire World mwahahaha, and now he can't use his evil mind control mojo to seduce any woman he wants to fall madly in love with him?

Y'know, the Devil. Faustian bargain and all that. Tempted Jesus in the desert, the guy you have to "give his due".

puh-leeeese

I've seen more evil overlords on Cartoon Network

"This is the world the way we've always wanted it and hoped it would be."

What, a world without children?

Yeah, that all went down like, what, two weeks ago? Wouldn't it have been an infinitely better, more realistic and absorbing story if Nicky had said "I've taken your children and a segment of your adults - the ones who displeased me. Turn your weapons over to me and meet me in my new Holy Land headquarters or I'll do it again."

But then again, the authors have never passed up the opportunity to whack away at strawmen instead of tell an actual story. "See, they're LIBERAL REPORTERS and they WANT ONE GOVERNMENT!"

Boze, thanks for the cites; the first 2 quote Joe Klein's "mass messianism" and the third link is Joe Klein.
Regardless of the Obama reference, it worries me that RTCs could possibly conceive of any person, presidential candidate or otherwise, as an antichrist and respond to that person accordingly.
When we use terms like cult of personality, are we describing the followers of a potential kook or the MAN WHO WILL DESTROY THE WORLD?

Well, we find out later that his powers are on loan from Satan. Which I don't think is inconsistent with the universe we live in as L&J see it. Certainly it would have been more compelling if we'd seen a scene mirroring Christ's temptation in the desert, with Nicky giving in, and if his "miracles" paralleled Christ's. But we all know L&J can't tell a compelling story.

"L&J's version of the evil beast will be defeated, ultimately, not by the lamb, but by the good beast."

So basically L&J see the Book of Revelation as a kaijuu movie.

All that magic and mysticism and yet L&J and their fundie readers absolutely despise Catholicism.

So basically L&J see the Book of Revelation as a kaijuu movie.

Actually, Revelation becomes much more readable by replacing Christ with Gamera. Like Gamera, Jesus contains delicious meat and is a friend to children!

In the Gospels, Jesus is tempted by Satan in the wilderness to perform miracles in order to amass power. The Antichrist, one would expect, would have succumbed to those same temptations.

Slack, that DOES fit in with Medieval and Renaissance-era theological speculation on the Antichrist.

One line of speculation was that Antichrist's career would closely parallel Christ's, including an anti-Temptation, anti-Transfiguration, and anti-Miracles. In some art of the time, Antichrist is conventionally represented just like Christ, except with the Devil whispering in his ear instead of the Holy Spirit like a dove above his head -- and no halo.

Another speculation made Antichrist a tragic figure. In a parallel to Gandalf describing to Frodo why he could not take the Ring, Antichrist begins with a genuine desire to do Good, but succumbs to temptation during his 40-days-in-the-wilderness parallel and is taken over. (One source has Antichrist actually achieving world peace, etc, and is then confronted by Christ; instead of placing himself and his achievements at the feet of Christ, he keeps them for himself and rejects Christ's lordship. THAT is the moment he truly becomes the Beast.)

I don't know whether this is "canonical" with the abovementioned speculation, but the PMD interpretation of an assassination leading to an anti-Resurrection could also accommodate both the above. The tragic Antichrist, his life paralleling Christ, is assassinated (the anti-Death); what rises in the anti-Resurrection is only his body -- undead instead of raised, and with a different guy inside; truly Satan come in the flesh.

Carpathia, although unable to control Stonagal, is:

"... honest and sincere, Buck. Nicolae will not do anything illegal or underhanded or even too political. He's pure, man. Pure as the driven snow."

A bit disturbing, here. 'Sincere' is the word that gets applied, incessantly, to Rayford Steele. He assembles his ex-pseduo-mistress at a dinner with his daughter and his daughter's suitor, oblivious to the fact that he's just stomped Hattie's heart, Buck is apparently erotically torn between his virgin daughter and Ray's piloty goodness, preaches away ... and all anyone can talk about is how 'sincere' he is.

A few short pages ago, in fact, 'sincere' was Rayford's theme tune. Now Nicky's nicked it.

Either the authors have a limited vocabulary and can't think of many other ways to express approbation and trust - which seems likeliest - or Nicky and Rayford have something in common. Such as, oh, disproportionate charisma, a tendency to bend everyone around their bizarre perfection, a tendency to preach, and a heart of pure evil.

Actually, they've got a lot in common. I see a resemblance in the family Beast here.

Carpathia has a secret: Despite his fluency in several languages and his extensive knowledge of the United Nations, he is terrible with names. To make up for this, he always has to ask for the same people.

"Nicolae Carpathia has super powers."

Ha! You call those super powers? Carpthia is no Bicycle-Repair-Man, I tell you.

Vermic:

Sorry, gotta nip this in the bud before a flame war breaks out. Fred never said he thought God powers were a legit plot device and Satanic powers weren't. His (legitimate) beef is that the authors have gone this long without implying that Nicky could have Satanic powers. Now, it would have been easy if his assent to power was so unbelievable or mysterious that we (the readers) would suspect something was off after his first appearance (and Fred's suggested as much), but the authors and the characters have nearly broken their collar-wringing hands in trying to convince us that he's just super-charismatic, super-smart, and super-charming! We finally agree that, fine, he's a genius polyglot George Clooney, and *then* the authors drop the evil power angle. But he's still Clooney - that's why he's in power! Huh?

Fred's previous posts about God as a plot device were mainly venting frustration that the book claims to be placed in our world - they've told us on the back of the book those are the rules, then they toss in obvious divine intervention, then go right back to pretending it's our world through the plot device of having everyone *ignore* the obvious signs of God.

Steve says there's one final favor Carpathia has to ask of Buck:

"He wants to see that stewardess friend of yours again."
"Steve, no one calls them stews anymore. They're flight attendants."

"Paging Hattie the Hottie, Future Whore of Babylon!
Paging Hattie the Hottie..."

(Cue that Sixties Continental Airlines commercial that got the airline in so much trouble, the one with the swivelhipped stews strutting to the tune of:
"We really move our tails for you,
To make your every wish come true...")

Check, Check, Check...


But even though he could have any woman in the world, the only one he wants is Hattie. Just as the only reporter he wants present at his big meeting is Buck and, later in the series, the only pilot he wants to hire is, yep, Rayford Steele. There are still 4 billion people on earth, but Carpathia is working closely with the authors to ensure that only a handful of them are ever involved in this story.

"It's a Small World after all,
It's a Small World after all,
It's a Small World after all,
It's a Small, Small World..."

Dahne, why would the devil turn the bland, listless world you describe on its head? That seems a pretty hellish nightmare to me.

Anti-miracles: What exactly would those be? Turning wine into water? Promoting demonic possession ("Me am Bizarro-Jesus. Me save possessed piggies by putting Legion in human body.")? Or the kind that turn out to have a boobytrap--you have to keep coming back for more healing, the Antichrist calms storms at the cost of a tornado elsewhere, loaves and fishes that only give the illusion of nourishment?

Newscat, sometimes you can get away with not showing your hand at the beginning, sometimes you can't. With Stephen King, I think there's an automatic assumption of a supernatural element, no matter how long it takes to show up, so I'd put that into the same category as a murder mystery taking several chapters before anyone dies without anyone thinking it's the wrong genre.

On the other hand, there was a Faye Kellerman mystery in which the villain turns out to be a literally radioactive mutant, with no prior suggestion this was the kind of book where radioactive mutants run around. Argh!

By the same token, I figure Nicky Kilimanjiro's powers are pretty much implied by the nature of the story (whether or not it's a Biblical concept that he has them, THE OMEN has at least as much influence on most people's idea of Antichrist, I think). As I said in the last LB thread, I do have a problem with Nicky going through the PMD checklist if he has this much power instead of simply "Kneel to me, mortals! None who live can withstand my will!"

Contrary to Fred, a good author doesn't need to spell out the ground rules for magic, they just have to know how it works or at least be able to make it look like they know. So long as there are no actual inconsistencies, I have no trouble with explanations that never go beyond "Such a thing is beyond my powers, Conan."

Speaking of Buffy, Jasmine was a much creepier messiah than Nicky will ever be.

sounds oddly like the last eight years

It does? Bush is an "honest and sincere" man?

So basically L&J see the Book of Revelation as a kaiju movie. -- Spalanzani

Would have been better storytelling if they had.

But since they didn't, could somebody ring up Goji and point him at LH&J after he finishes beating up on GINO and Cloverfield? (And get Rodan and Ghidorah in on it, too; only time you're ever going to see Goji and Ghidorah on the same side for once.)

Hibryd, I think Fred has pointed out a couple of times (though I haven't reread to check) that with such crappy writing, it's hard to tell whether LH&J are showing us Nicky mindcontrolling the UN to applaud his recitation of the nations of the world or think this really is some sort of spellbinding speech (when I mentioned good writing in my previous post, I so did not mean them!).

A bit disturbing, here. 'Sincere' is the word that gets applied, incessantly, to Rayford Steele. He assembles his ex-pseduo-mistress at a dinner with his daughter and his daughter's suitor, oblivious to the fact that he's just stomped Hattie's heart, Buck is apparently erotically torn between his virgin daughter and Ray's piloty goodness, preaches away ... and all anyone can talk about is how 'sincere' he is. -- Praline

That's because he's an author self-insert.

And the other author self-insert is flattering his patron.

sounds oddly like the last eight years

Sounds like you missed the words "honest" and "sincere".

L&J's version of the evil beast will be defeated, ultimately, not by the lamb, but by the good beast. In Left Behind, good triumphs over evil not because it is intrinsically different, but because it is simply more powerful. God has a bigger gun than the devil.

It's less surprising than it might be, for a cultural reason: I suspect L&J enjoy Westerns more than the Bible. To quote Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies' Why Do People Hate America?

What to Americans reads as an iconic vision of simple virtues made safe by a knight-errant of the wilderness, is for the rest of the world full of the ambiguity at the heart of America: violence ... The western advances the myth that evil is intractable and can only be eradicated, that justice eventually comes down to the willingness to spill blood, that liberty resides in the right to make armed response, that the use of violence is the legitimate and only secure way to resolve a conflict. The whole world has experienced the western, and underlying its popularity is a different reaction: fear...

The fear is that the American political outlook continues to be too readily and uncritically shaped by the myth of the redemptive, regenerative powers of violence. At the heart of this mythic vision stands the question: does America cherish a double standard concerning the victor and victim? In the western it is the hero - what he defends, vindicates and saves - that alone evokes poignant reflection, while the vanquished are unmourned; they do not require the reflex of regret, for as agents of evil they are by definition of less human worth.


Subtitute 'fundamentalist' for 'American', and you've got the problem with L&J here. Nominally they're preaching Christianity, but we've already seen how little they mention Christ. Effectively, they're carrying a cross in their hatband, but the actual mythic tradition and moral compass that they're responding to and perpetuating is not, in any of its instincts, Christian. It's instead, the Myth of Redemptive Violence (the term, notably, coined by Walter Wink, an actual Christian - http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/cpt/article_060823wink.shtml). It's a pagan myth, older than Christianity by far.

The central image of Christianity, in fact, is an inversion of that myth: the violence is redemptive because it is not inflicted by the hero, but suffered by the hero, with no attempt at resistance or retaliation. But people have a tremendous capacity to do the exact opposite of what their religion or philosophy teaches, in the name of serving that philosophy, and so it is with L&J. Suggest to them that Christianity requires gentleness and non-aggression, and all you're likely to get is a John Wayne sneer at your naivete. They aren't actually writing a Christian story; they're writing a pagan story that resonates with the darkest elements of the American psyche, and sticking a cross on the top.

The tragic Antichrist, his life paralleling Christ, is assassinated (the anti-Death); what rises in the anti-Resurrection is only his body -- undead instead of raised, and with a different guy inside; truly Satan come in the flesh.

Now that would make a good novel.

What am I now, a pimp?

When I saw this, somehow I pictured that useless dork saying this while wearing a wine-red Borsalino with a peacock feather in the band and a moth-eaten Superfly suit.

I think a problem with Nicky suddenly getting powers is that the authors have hitherto gone the naturalistic route when they could have gone supernatural. The guys the Bible predicted would breathe fire just stood on soap-boxes while their attackers fell down with spontaneous heart attacks: that suggests that the special effects scenes are going to be understated. Superpowers coming in at this point are a change of tone.

Bruce Barnes will babble a bit of pseudo-scriptural phlebotinum to provide a half-hearted explanation for Nicolae's powers, and then those powers will be displayed unambiguously. Is that fair?

Is it fair that thousands of trees had to die so this book [these books] could get published?

On the subject of Stonagal et. al., it almost seems like the authors forget them for periods of time, then occasionally remember and briefly reinsert them - "oh yeah, Buck was nearly killed by this conspiracy, guess we should mention it again."

Also, @Fraser, I second that about Jasmine from Buffy...brrrr, she was creepy.

what rises in the anti-Resurrection is only his body -- undead instead of raised, and with a different guy inside; truly Satan come in the flesh.

Now that would make a good novel.

Not when L&J are writing it. (That happens in book 7 of the LB series. It is not a good novel).

Buck objects to being viewed as a pimp. He may also object to Hattie being viewed as a prostitute, although he never says so. His unprecedented siding with Hattie here reflects the authors' notion of chivalry, not some kind of feminism.

I think that's giving Buck too much credit. He says, 'What am I now, a pimp?' Not, 'What am I now, a lonely-hearts column?' Not, 'What am I now, Yenta?' Not even, 'What am I now, his social secretary?' All of which would be appropriate: Steve only asked him to bring Hattie to a public function, not to a midnight assignment at Carpathia's hotel suite.

Buck says 'pimp'. Pimps fix dates for prostitutes. He's not defending Hattie against being called a whore; he's the one calling her a whore in the first place.

practicallyevil: Aren't they currently at the Global Weekly? Is Nicolae convening his security council at the Global Weekly? This book can't even keep setting straight.

IIRC, at this point Steve is now employed by the UN secretary general.

Becky: Certainly it would have been more compelling if we'd seen a scene mirroring Christ's temptation in the desert

L&J get around to that scene in the prequel The Rising.

They aren't actually writing a Christian story; they're writing a pagan story that resonates with the darkest elements of the American psyche, and sticking a cross on the top.

Of course it's Praline who sums it up most eloquently and succinctly. I guess I'll forgive you for failing to use punctuation or emphasis to indicate where your quote ends. Confusing, a little.

Oops. I used a double line break, but if it helps, it ends at 'less human worth'. And thank you kindly! :-)

They aren't actually writing a Christian story; they're writing a pagan story that resonates with the darkest elements of the American psyche, and sticking a cross on the top.

As a Heathen, I have a hard time wrapping my head around this approach. If you reject Christian ethics, shouldn't you also reject Christianity? But no, they claim theirs is the real true version. Not that I want them in my camp, mind you. I also don't want the white supremecists, but somehow I find the Christian version thereof even more reality-defying.

Hmm, after Praline's post, I'm getting a vision of Man Who Shot Liberty Valance with Jesus as the Jimmy Stewart lawyer opposite Wayne's gunslinger.

But I disagree as regards the two witnesses in Jerusalem: Nicky's not using any overt display of psychic powers ("Stare into my eyes, Rayford Steele! You must become Caligari!")so in a sense, it fits with two guys suddenly dropping dead with heart attacks. Of course, Carpathia's defacto world conquest doesn't make much sense without world-class mind control(though it's possible the authors think they're being subtle), but inept as these books are, I'm inclined to give them a pass on this point.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Google search

  • Custom Search

L.B. Archives

Google Adsense

Résumé


Help NOLA

Red Dress

More ads, sorry

Without exceptions

At least

If I had a hammer

If you must drive

An innocent man in over his head

AddThis Social Bookmark Button

Thanks

  • The 2007 Weblog Awards

sitemeter


Tip Jar

Change is good

Tip Jar