Without warrant

I want to write today about an immensely important topic, the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and the vital, inviolable rights it guarantees. The Fourth Amendment, in its entirety, reads:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

These rights are not mere perks or privileges, but necessary, essential rights for all the people in any free society, any nation in which the rule of law means more than ...

Wait, hold on a sec. What? ... Ricin? Are you sure? ... Omigod, where? Las Vegas?

Holy crap -- They found ricin in Las Vegas!!!

Screw the Fourth Amendment -- this is terrifying. Warrants schmarrants -- just do what ya gotta do to keep me safe.

I mean, the Constitution is all well and good, but it's not a suicide pact, after all.

(In exchange for giving up the rights guaranteed in the Fourth Amendment I will of course expect to see substantial progress in making us all safer, such as the news, for example, that the No. 3 Leader in Al-Qaida has been killed.)

Comments

[A Texan in Bavaria]

Gosh, but Thomas Jefferson was a great writer. I feel almost religious awe for those words.

Sigh.

And to think that just this week, the German High Court said, no, Schaeuble (German interior minister), you can't have spyware on Germans' computers. Not Yours.

[cjmr's husband]

Interesting point 3/4 of the way through the CNN article -- Ricin isn't illegal.

And a special note for those furriners who might consider a vacation in Las Vegas: the "general weapons" found in the hotel room don't seem to be a big story here.

Still, an incompetent making his own ricin (there were beans in the room) who manages to get himself hospitalized does seem to be in line with the rest of the so-called "terrorist plots" they've managed to stop in the last few years.

Manufactured connection to some islamic charity appearing in 3..2..1..

[Monkay]

Here is a link to Wikiquote Benjamin Franklin.

[Kayte]

I mean, the Constitution is all well and good, but it's not a suicide pact, after all.

And after all, If you aren't doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to worry about.

Feh.

I fart in its general direction.

[Zyzzyva]

And a special note for those furriners who might consider a vacation in Las Vegas: the "general weapons" found in the hotel room don't seem to be a big story here.

That's just cause it's the States. Guns aren't a big deal for you guys, apparently, cause of one of your other amendments. (#2)

[jeh]

If ricin is illegal, only the biochemists will have ricin. Or something like that.

I knew someone who actually worked with highly purified ricin in his research for his doctoral dissertation. Yikes!

[Froborr]

Oh no. They found concentrated castor oil. The terror.

There is a high probably that you have everything needed to make WWI-era (which is still plenty lethal enough, as any survivor of the war could tell you) under your sink.

People kill each other on occasion. There is a low but non-zero probability that it will happen to you. Deal.

[Mike Timonin]

I wonder if the book they found was the ever popular Anarchist's Cookbook? Because if it was, and it probably was, it's crap. The only thing about it that's "anarchistic" is the title.

That being said, will we see a crack down on anarchists and socialists? I can has Palmer Raids?

[Doctor Science]

I mean, the Constitution is all well and good, but it's not a suicide pact, after all.

But the Declaration of Independence *is*.

[Pope Easier Rhino I]

Can I just butt in here and say that the CNN website has horrifying user accessibility design? The kind which makes me long for a simpler time, a time when the internet was nothing but text and the occasional very small image. A time when Thomas Jefferson was not the writer of the Fourth Amendment. A time when ricin was not made from concentrated castor oil. A time when anarchists had absolutely nothing to do with socialists. A time when "furriner" wasn't a word in a dictionary (it is now, I was shocked to learn). A happier time.

[Drak Pope]

That being said, will we see a crack down on anarchists and socialists? I can has Palmer Raids?

That makes sense to me. After all, the USSR is currently the main funder of al Qaeda and Islamic militants, and we all know how interested they are in the philosophies of anarchism.

[Tommy Times]

Alright, who wants to start the Jose Padilla Lectures on the subject of the 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, and 9th amendments? Who should we invite to give the inaugural lecture?

By the way, when does the trial of the anthrax killer start?

Oh, and aren't you glad that George Bush didn't pay no attention to no 4th amendment or FISA, started eavesdropping just about as soon as he hit D.C., and as a result he was able to find out about and stop the Al Qaeda attack planned for September 2001? Boy, we were sure lucky that Clinton fucker was gone. He would have been telling the CIA they were just covering their ass.

I better lay off the Starbucks, man.

[Froborr]

Rhino: All good points. However, what do they have to do with the current discussion? I did indeed misread when I said ricin is concentrated castor oil; it is purified (extremely easily) from the waste left over after castor oil is made. Point still stands that it requires nothing more than high school chemistry, kitchen tools, and a common agricultural product to make. It's stupid to destroy all our freedoms to try to stop something that's impossible to stop.

There is a connection between socialists and anarchists. They both oppose fascism, so it is in fascists' best interest to equate them, and have done so for over a century.

Crediting Jefferson for the Bill of Rights is an easy mistake to make, since they, the Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence are so often lumped together as if a few guys got together, hashed out all three over beers, and lo and behold a free nation was born. Then all of a sudden, about fifteen years before the Civil War, a large slave population sprang out of nowhere, but then Lincoln single-handedly freed them all. Our culture is lousy at history. Again, what does that have to do with the current discussion?

[Monkay]

unreasonable searches and seizures, see; there's the problem. ExecuBranchCo doesn't find these searches at all unreasonable. Reach out and touch someone's private information, use fear to distract people, loot the treasury; sounds perfectly reasonable to the wonderful people who brought you Shock and Awe.

[animus]

It brings to mind this article by Bob Harris.

[Jesurgislac]

About 18 months ago a bunch of macho assholes were chatting on the Internet - much as we chat here - and were exchanging enthusiastic ideas about how they could carry out a terrorist attack. Their ideas included the notion that two people could carry liquids aboard a plane, each liquid harmless in itself, and could mix the two liquids together in the toilet to make explosive, and blow the plane up.

Because they were Muslims, some of whom had family connections with Muslims who actually had serious connections with Muslims who had advocated serious violence, because only a year or so earlier four Muslims had carried out an attack on the London Underground, MI5 were monitoring their Internet conversation, because while this was all 100% pure BS - the "liquid bomb" scenario is impossible - this is a standard pattern of investigation, familiar to those of us who recall how the police used to investigate the IRA, only replace "Muslim" with "Irish".

Because there was a US election less than three months away, two dozen of these "chatroom terrorists" were arrested, held without charges for several weeks, eight of them were let go, and two more let go in November. The 14 remaining are due to be tried... in a couple of months. We will hopefully find out at the trial what, if anything, they actually did beyond talk BS on the Internet with their friends - and we will also find out exactly why 24 of them were arrested on the night of 9th August 2006 and why BS about "liquid bombs" has been allowed to affect what people can and cannot carry aboard a plane ever since, and whether it's true that evidence obtained by torture was used to justify these panicky arrests, weeks of detention without charges being brought, and months of delay before trial.

It's unreasonable, I know, that I should be as pissy about the restriction of carrying liquids aboard a plane than I am about the arrest of 24 people on what certainly appears to have been reasons justified by US politics rather than an actual threat - but the "liquid bomb" threat is such complete BS. It's true that it is possible to take two liquids, harmless when separate, mix them together, and create an explosive. But only in an episode of MacGyver could anyone - even MacGyver himself - actually manage to do so aboard a plane, in the toilet, on a commercial flight. (There's an excellent outline of why liquid bombs are not feasible in The Register, which was publicly available less than a week after the attack. But although you have only my word for it, I was highly skeptical from the first news article I read - perhaps because it did sound exactly like a MacGyver episode, and while I love them to bits, I did know that the science in them isn't more than superficially plausible.)

But the two are connected. If you have a bunch of people seriously discussing how they can steal detonators and make explosives for a terrorist attack that could actually be carried out in the real world, well, you keep track of them and their associates and if they start doing the things they've discussed, you arrest them.

If you have a bunch of people seriously discussing how they can carry acetone and concentrated hydrogen peroxide aboard a plane, mix them together and make a bomb and blow the plane up, well: you keep track of them and if they actually buy plane tickets, you have security notified to search their luggage thoroughly for the equipment that they might use to mix the liquids together and seriously damage themselves and the plane's toilet, because although they could not possibly blow up the plane, they could certainly annoy and inconvenience the other passengers and possibly even kill themselves trying. (You also warn the airline staff that a passenger who attempts to gain sole use of even one of the toilets on a transAtlantic flight for several hours is probably up to no good, and you ignore the boy-are-you-stupid look they give you.) You don't try to keep track of the liquids themselves, because of the disruption that will inevitably result. Unless, of course, you have the Bush administration breathing down the back of your neck insisting that they want the whole bunch arrested now and massive and pointless security measures instituted at Heathrow.

I'm sure - unfortunately - that what MI5 did to those guys was legal. (And I'm sure, unfortunately, that they probably all were participating in a conversation about blowing stuff up. And I'm sure, unfortunately, that if they hadn't been Muslims they wouldn't have been targeted.)

But I really want the information we ought to get when those 14 men are tried for a "terrorist plot" that they couldn't possibly ever have carried out.

[Randy Owens]

Jesurgislac: But only in an episode of MacGyver could anyone - even MacGyver himself - actually manage to do so aboard a plane, in the toilet, on a commercial flight.

Or maybe 24, which seems to be a very serious influence these days on those very serious thinkers who tell us that the Muslimofascists are going to kill us all in our sleep! MacGyver is so passé.

[Mark Z.]

What the hell was that?

[Ed. Note: The incoherent comment-spam Mark Z. is responding to has been deleted, with the unfortunate side-effect of eliminating the context for his apt question. Hence this note.]

[Kriz]

Ugh, auto-spam.

Anyway, the neocon cabal has been trying to convince us to live in fear for quite a few years now. How could they pass up an opportunity like this?

[A Texan in Bavaria]

*Hangs head in shame for not remembering who actually wrote the Fourth Amendment, wonders if they'll make her turn in her US passport...*

[Scott]

Screw the Fourth Amendment -- this is terrifying. Warrants schmarrants -- just do what ya gotta do to keep me safe.

Fred, quit making an idol of the Constitution. It is a living document that evolves with the times. If the people, operating collectively thru the govt, choose to give up some so-called 'rights' in order to feel more secure, then that's that. The govt didn't violate this person's rights, this person chose to give up those rights by choosing to continue living in a country where this happens. This person collectively chose to give up that right by participating (or choosing not to participate) in a democratic political process.

You and your damn constitutional literalism are what's causing the WoD to gut the constitution. After all, as you said a couple of posts ago, govt abuses and inefficiency are caused by anti-govt beliefs. If we all submitted and obeyed, these things wouldn't happen. That is why countries with no organized anti-govt propaganda or political activity, like the old USSR, had so much more efficient govts than we do here.

[aunursa]

"The Imaginary Liberal".

Followed immediately by "The Imaginary Conservative".

Imagine That.

[Chris]

I choose the path of Scott, the Imaginary Libertarian!

[Wakboth]

Yeah, there certainly is something unreal about Scott.

If I were paranoid, I'd say he was an extended joke by someone who really, really disliked Libertarianism, because nobody can be like that.

But since I'm not paranoid, and have run into several entirely genuine idiots who would be considered as ridiculously over-the-top caricatures of their ideas if they were fictional, I'm all too willing to accept that he may be real.

[Kayte]

... as if a few guys got together, hashed out all three [documents] over beers, and lo and behold a free nation was born

Um, that wasn't how it happened?

bummer

[Dash]

... as if a few guys got together, hashed out all three [documents] over beers, and lo and behold a free nation was born

I believe the Conftitution waf hafhed out over ale.

[mike timonin]

Hmmm. I'm being piled on by popes, how odd!

Anarchism and socialism are frequently linked in history, both as political/ideological movements and as radical groups which governments like to crush. Linking the two (which, in fact, I did not do), has nothing to do with the internet generation.

My thought process which ended with Palmer Raids went something like this - the news report included a reference to an "anarchist text-book", which leads to "evil anarchists, must suppress them", which leads to the Palmer Raids (between 1917 and 1921, a series of raids supported by Attorney General Palmer, against "radicals", including socialists and anarchists). Which explanation really kinda destroys the funny, such as it was.

[Technomad]

Well---considering all the lovely, lovely precedents the War on (Some Unpopular) Drugs has set, why are people suddenly getting so upset about this sort of thing?

We evol, evol libertarians have been screaming our heads off about how the WO(SU)D was going to give our beloved leaders all the tools they neede for a dictatorship for decades now (in between cackling insanely while plotting to throw all the good Bob Cratchets and Tiny Tims into the snow, dump poison into the water and the air, and sell ourselves and everybody else into lifelong slavery to Them Evol Corporations, because, hey, we're EVOL) and nobody ever listened---until, all of a sudden, it was THEIR oxen being gored.

As far as an "anarchist textbook" goes---I've got plenty of stuff in my library that makes the Anarchist Cookbook look like the utter crap it is. I have a copy, but mainly as an historical reference and to complete my collection. There are lots of deliberate errors in the Cookbook, and one theory popular among us Evol Libertarians is that the book was deliberately written as a ploy to get fools to either incriminate themselves or blow themselves up.

[konrad_arflane]

Maybe I'm missing something here, or maybe there's some spin-off (or just additional details) in the US media that I haven't seen on account of being European, but I don't see the problem in the course of events as described in the article: The police were called to investigate the room by the hotel manager, because a relative of the tenant (who was hospitalized at the time) found a suspicious substance in the room.

There's nothing in the article to suggest that the police didn't have a warrant to search the room - and in any case, what's the case law on extended-stay hotel rooms? Are they the property of the tenant or the owner? IOW, can the owner legitimately ask the police to search the room, or is that an infringement on the rights of the tenant?

[Monkay]

Our civil rights rescinded
by a smirky rightist cabal
exploiting fear of Muslims
the shadowy murderous others
to distract us from the loss of
our precious Bill of Rights
I hate it when that happens . . .

[not_scottbot]

'if they'll make her turn in her US passport'

Well, if you stay in Germany, and try to renew your passport, the embassy/consulate will demand all your properly filed tax documents and your fingerprints - otherwise, yes, they will take their passport. Though this does not mean you are no longer an American citizen - it merely means that you are American citizen who longer possesses proper documentation in the eyes of those responsible for permitting people to cross borders.

However, since various elected government officials have not been impeached, nor have various government employees been tried (and considering the evidence available, also convicted) for their criminal acts, I don't think you have to worry about any deficiencies in constitutional knowledge as a hindrance to those who swear an oath to uphold the Constitution, much less those citizens living in a state where the Constitution is becoming something other than the binding law of the United States of America.

[Mike Timonin]

No, Konrad, I think you have the story straight. The man's brother delivered the ricin and etc to the police, and there's no indication that this particular event involved warrentless searching. I think the concern is that this will prompt further demands for extra-constitutional powers.

[Jeff]

We evol, evol libertarians have been screaming our heads off about how the WO(SU)D War On Poverty was going to give our beloved leaders all the tools they neede for a dictatorship for decades now

Fixed. Libertarians have been whining about not being able to smoke pot, but, as a group, they've done jack-shit for the inner city kids caught up in the crack epidemic (which was abetted by the Reagan administration, if naught else). They've been opposed to the War on Pot, and far more opposed to the War on Poverty, nothing more.

[scottbot_has_received_the_go_code]

Scottbot has received the go code, and is certain this is not some sort of loyalty test.

'...quit making an idol of the Constitution.' Scottbot would never worship at the altar of a false god, and is thus certain that the Original Creator has been imbued with Original Intent (TM).

'It is a living document that evolves with the times.' It sure has - like that whole Prohibition thing, or allowing women the right to vote.

'If the people, operating collectively thru the govt, choose to give up some so-called 'rights' in order to feel more secure, then that's that.' You know, Scottbot is certain that with the proper language module installed, this sentence could be correctly translated into German - especially that 'the people' part - das Volk being worth underlining in a proper Fraktur font. However, as Scottbot's logic module is still fully operational, it would behoove Scottbot to point out a certain logical flaw in the Original Programmer's Logic (TM) - the Constitution was intended to prevent exactly what is being described. Obviously, as with all works of man, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Though Scottbot, properly polished, should last over cosmic time scales.

'The govt didn't violate this person's rights, this person chose to give up those rights by choosing to continue living in a country where this happens.' Luckily, Scottbot has his bags packed, but is uncertain if it will be allowed to board an airplane to leave the land of the formerly free and formerly brave. However, Scottbot's most devoted mechanic did this years ago. Though now, that mechanic pays MORE IN TAXES than in the U.S. - however, much less (much, much, much less) of that mechanic's taxes goes to weaponry. A tiny portion even goes to support a constitutional court that believes that the state is prevented from certain actions. See point about language module above - no slippery slopes where this mechanic lives, no way, no how - and it is a court which continues to refuse its government a blank check to spy on its citizens, much less kill them for the greater good.

'This person collectively chose to give up that right by participating (or choosing not to participate) in a democratic political process.' Scottbot believes the technical term for this is Catch-22. Which probably explains why libertarians are the most oppressed people on the planet - since they choose either to participate or not participate, they provide empirical proof of the oppression inherent or not inherent in the system.

'That is why countries with no organized anti-govt propaganda or political activity, like the old USSR, had so much more efficient govts than we do here.' Scottbot would like to correct the Original Programmer's geography a bit. The Russians have never been noted for efficiency, which even shows in their totalitarian predilections. However, a country which Russians used to import labor from back during the days of the Czar, showed the sort of efficiency which even the current American government can only dream of. For example, take this problem of illegals ruining the purity of America's essence....

[Kare]

On the issue of common chemicals that can be made lethal, the best class I ever had on that subject was the "hazardous chemicals training" I had to take a couple of years ago because some day I may have to change a toner cartridge or something. Anyway, our teacher was an actual chemist who trained the few state employees who worked with nasty stuff like pesticides and dynamite. He explained that we could make a quite lethal version of the chlorine gas used in WW I by putting swimming pool chlorine pellets in a balloon and dropping the balloon in a bottle of household ammonia. His point was that simply because it's easy to get something doesn't mean that thing isn't dangerous, and further, it's impossible to thwart a truly determined lunatic. Giving up the 4th amendment won't actually prevent a really good terrorist from doing something awful, but it will cause all the rest of us a great deal of irritation.

Anarchism and socialism are frequently linked in history, both as political/ideological movements and as radical groups which governments like to crush. Linking the two (which, in fact, I did not do), has nothing to do with the internet generation.

Hey, you're the one who brought them up for no reason. The current bogeyman is Islamic terrorism, not Socialism or Anarchism. Cracking down on them now would be silly and would confuse the peabrains who are honestly shitting themselves everytime the government and the television tells them to.

[linnen]

At the risk of giving aid and comfort, one of Kurt Saxon's publications contain a recipe for ricin. (Please excuse me if I am not more specific.) I picked up my copy in college when Reagan was in office, the Survivalist movement was in swing, and various nimrods were proclaiming that a nuclear strike was no big deal.

[Lauren]

I'll third the notion that there doesn't seem to be an warrant-less search here. The relative who discovered the ricin had legal access to the property, and he is as welcome as any other private citizen to report anything he witnesses, and surrender anthing he possesses, to the police. Once the police had the ricin, they probably had all the probable cause they needed to get a warrant. But even if they didn't, I can imagine that even an "extended stay" hotel reserves the right to enter their rooms, for housekeeping and maintenance, especially if the guest has been missing for two weeks (Was he paid up for two weeks?). If they have the right to enter, they have the right to invite the police in.

[mike timonin]

I didn't bring them up for "no reason" - the news report stated that there was an "anarchist type text book" found in the hotel room. The guy in hospital doesn't sound like an Islamic Terrorist (tm) - the AP is reporting his name as Roger Von Bergendorff of Utah. (Although, who knows? Who's to say that Roger Von Bergendorff isn't a practicing Muslim, attending a radical Wahabi-esque mosque in Utah?) And who ever claimed the US government acted in ways that make sense? Or, for that matter, needs much excuse to add a group to it's shit list? (Especially a group like anarchists, who are already ON the shit list?)

[Randy Owens]

Lauren: I'll third the notion that there doesn't seem to be an warrant-less search here.

And I'll second the notion that Fred didn't mean to suggest that one had taken place, but did mean to suggest that this might be used by some of the more alarmist set as justifications for future, ah, "limitations" on the Fourth Amendment.

[Rusty Shackleford]

There's no need to fear the executive branch using this incident as an excuse to extend its current overreaching. The ricin guy was not a Muslim or an "illegal."

[damnedyankee]

There's no need to fear the executive branch using this incident as an excuse to extend its current overreaching. The ricin guy was not a Muslim or an "illegal."

I don't find that terribly reassuring, Rusty, as they've never needed much of an excuse in the past.

[Bugmaster]

Holy crap, I actually agree with Scott. The Constitution isn't sacred; it's a read-write document which can, and has been, modified -- if that's what people want. If people want to abolish the Fourth Amendment, it will be abolished. There's nothing magical about it, unfortunately.

[Randy Owens]

Rusty: You mean just like the 9/11 hijackers were not Iraqis?

[Geds]

You mean just like the 9/11 hijackers were not Iraqis?

Or how Al Qaeda was all over the place in Iraq?

[hapax]

Bugmaster: If people want to abolish the Fourth Amendment, it will be abolished. There's nothing magical about it, unfortunately

On the other hand, there is an orderly procedure. Of course amendments can be and have been added and deleted by the popular will -- but not by executive fiat backed up by a panicked rabble.

Really, is this so difficult to understand?

[Bugmaster]

@hapax:
Yes, you're right, of course; there's an orderly procedure for now. However, that procedure itself is described in the Constitution, which means that it, itself, can be eroded over time (or abolished altogether).

My point is not that "the sky is falling" or that the Constitution is somehow irrelevant. My point is that the Constitution is not magical, without active participation, it can and will be altered in an undesirable way.

[Tokyo (was Edo)]

Ricin? In my Las Vegas?

[Rusty Shackleford]

Rusty: You mean just like the 9/11 hijackers were not Iraqis? - Randy Owens

Uh oh - we're invading Las Vegas! Now that's a place where it would be difficult to either (1) shock, or (2) awe.

[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]

Jeez, getting excited about ricin. So not impressed. Castor bean plants were a common warm-climate decorative species when I was a kid, and it's not hard to find them now. The world is full of toxic substances. Your local hardware store and nursery will cheerfully sell you all kinds of appalling things, and never ask you what they're for. The only thing that saves us is that few people know all their properties, and fewer still have any desire to use them.

The question is, what did these idiots plan on doing with their ricin? If they didn't have a plan, they were just tickling their imaginations with the idea of power, which is 95% of the appeal of The Anarchist's Cookbook. If they did have a plan, they can be judged on that. (It's probably dumb. People who play around with biologicals usually aren't too swift.)

Whatever it is they had, and had in mind, I'm sure it's more than adequately covered by existing law, existing rules of evidence, and existing procedures for search and seizure. There's absolutely no reason to make changes in the law, unless you already wanted to make them and are using this incident as an excuse.