L.B.: Still unsaved

Left Behind, pp. 426-430

From here on the rest of Left Behind is all building up to the big final scene in which the Antichrist, like Chekhov's gun, finally goes off. The end of Chapter 23 here is part of this build-up, an attempt to create and sustain suspense leading up to Buck's next encounter with Nicolae Carpathia.

Bruce Barnes has just finished providing Buck with a short checklist of things the Antichrist will do during his rise to power: Form one world government based in Babylon, one world currency, one world religion -- pretty much all the things that Nicolae had announced he was instituting earlier that same day.

"Did you see the news today?" Buck asked.

"Not today," Bruce said. "I've been in meetings ..."

This could have been played for laughs (intentional laughs, I mean), or it could have been written as an eerie reveal -- "Everything you just predicted has already happened!" -- but this being Left Behind, we instead get a half-page explanation of the workings of Bruce Barnes' answering machine.

No, really:

Buck told him what had happened at the U.N. Bruce paled. "That's why we've been hearing all those clicking sounds on my answering machine," Bruce said. "I turned the ringer off on the phone, so the only way you can tell when a call comes in is by the clicking on the answering machine. People are calling to let me know. ..."

Sometimes I almost feel sorry for the authors. Here they finally arrive, albeit belatedly, at this Big Reveal, a moment they've been building up to for hundreds of pages. Two major characters finally come to accept the terrifying reality they've both feared for some time but didn't quite dare to believe and then ...

And then the authors just can't help themselves. They immediately steer off into a discussion of the clicking sounds an answering machine makes when the ringer is turned off. Even when they're not actually on the telephone, they wind up talking about the telephone. (I'm starting to wonder if maybe all this telephony has to mean something, that maybe it's some kind of deeper theme the meaning of which, like the recurring bears in John Irving,* simply eludes me.)

This brings us to the "bullets won't stop him" portion of the monster movie. Here Bruce plays the role of the Spooky Old Man in the village who knows all the legends about the local monster, its strengths, weaknesses and super powers.

"The Antichrist is a deceiver. And he has the power to control men's minds. He can make people see lies as truth."

Buck told Bruce of his invitation to the pre-press conference meeting.

"You must not go," Bruce said.

"I can't not go," Buck said. "This is the opportunity of a lifetime."

"I'm sorry," Bruce said. "I have no authority over you, but let me plead with you, warn you, about what happens next. ..."

I can't help but wonder if Bruce were talking to a member of his congregation, would he begin by saying, "I do have authority over you?" I don't think I've ever heard someone use the word "authority" in this context. Usually when taking this line of argument, a person will say something like "I can't tell you what to do," or "I can't make up your mind for you." I can't imagine someone instead saying what Bruce says here unless that person were a military officer or an overbearing CEO or someone else who is accustomed to exercising authority over others.

For some reason, when someone says, "I can't tell you what to do," it never strikes me this way. It never seems as though they're suggesting, "I can tell some people what to do, but you don't happen to be one of those people." Yet that is what Bruce's phrasing seems to imply. It seems as though he's saying, "As a senior pastor, I have authority over my congregation, but since you're not yet part of that congregation, I can't yet give you orders." It's the sort of comment that would make me extremely reluctant to join this man's church.

Bruce is convinced that the Antichrist is Up To Something, yet, despite all his prophecy study, he isn't sure exactly what.

"He undoubtedly has ulterior motives for wanting you there."

"I'm no good to him."

"You would be if he controlled you."

"But he doesn't."

"If he is the evil one the Bible speaks of, there is little he does not have the power to do."

If I'm following this correctly -- and at this point I'm fairly sure I'm not -- it seems that in the LB-verse we humans have free will when it comes to our dealings with God, but not when it comes to our dealings with Satan.

"I warn you not to go there without protection."

(I'll refrain here, but I'll be disappointed if this isn't pounced on in the comment section.)

"I warn you not to go there without protection."

"A bodyguard?"

"At least. But if Carpathia is the Antichrist, do you want to face him without God?"

... "I don't think I'm going to get hypnotized or anything."

"Mr. Williams, you have to do what you have to do, but I'm pleading with you. If you go into that meeting without God in your life, you will be in mortal and spiritual danger."

Ah. Only God can protect you from the Antichrist's mind-control mojo. Here then, neatly laid out, are The Rules for the big final scene unfolding over the next two chapters. Buck will be going to meet the Antichrist who is sure to turn him into the devil's pawn by using his mind-control powers. Unless, that is, Buck instead invokes the counter-spell of divine providence.

I say "counter-spell" because here again LaHaye & Jenkins' notion of spiritual warfare is difficult to distinguish from sorcery. The Antichrist can cast a spell that we are powerless to resist. That would mean we're all doomed except that we can invoke the magic words spell, which God is powerless to resist, and thereby compel God to cast his counter-spell against the Antichrist.

It's kind of like a cosmic game of rock-paper-scissors. Antichrist beats human beats God beats Antichrist.

This is strange theology, to say the least, but if one agrees to go along for the ride without trying to reconcile any of this with conventional or biblical Christianity then these Rules work well enough as a premise for the coming showdown with Nicolae.

In order to maintain the suspense surrounding that showdown, the reader has to be kept in doubt about the state of Buck's soul. This requires something of a departure from the standard tropes of didactic evangelical fiction. This scene cannot end with Buck's conversion, since that would spoil the is-he-or-isn't-he? drama of his encounter with Carpathia.

It's interesting that the authors thought it necessary to up the ante here. They've insisted all along that salvation -- saying "the prayer" and invoking "the transaction" -- is the most important thing in the world. Up until now I'd have thought that, for them, "Without God in your life, you will be in mortal and spiritual danger" could have stood alone as a statement for anyone. Yet here that statement is qualified, "If you go into that meeting without God in your life ..."

This is an odd inversion of the old evangelist's cliche. At some point you've probably heard an evangelist ask some variation of this question: "If you were to stand before God and He were to ask you why He should let you into His heaven, what would you say?" Here, instead, Bruce is in effect asking Buck, "If you were to stand before Satan and he were to ask you why he shouldn't take you to Hell ..."

"If you go into that meeting without God in your life, you will be in mortal and spiritual danger."

He told Buck about his conversation with the Steeles and how they had collectively come up with the idea of a Tribulation Force. "It's a band of serious-minded people who will boldly oppose the Antichrist."

There's no ellipsis there, nothing omitted between those two paragraphs.

So let's recap, according to Bruce: 1. The Antichrist can control the minds of anyone who isn't born again; 2. Buck isn't born again; 3. Buck is about to meet with the Antichrist.

Given all that, Bruce decides the best course of action is to tell Buck all about his super-secret anti-Antichrist guerrilla squad and to provide him a list of the founding members. Genius.

I suspect the idea here has to do with what Bruce and the authors regard as a more compelling sales pitch. A personal relationship with a loving God just doesn't seem as exciting as the idea of being recruited into an army, into God's commando squad.

The Tribulation Force stirred something deep within Buck. It took him back to his earliest days as a writer, when he believed he had the power to change the world. He would stay up all hours of the night, plotting with his colleagues how they would have the courage and the audacity to stand up to oppression, to big government, to bigotry. He had lost that fire and verve over the years ...

If you've ever seen the disturbing documentary Jesus Camp, then you have an idea of how effective this kind of recruiting-proselytization can be. That sort of stirring, heart-pounding call to be a part of some greater cause is what the authors seem to be shooting for here. Note though that Jenkins' clumsy prose again accidentally reveals more than it intends. Staying up late, "plotting ... how they would have the courage and the audacity" is the end point here. Such late-night plotting offers all the thrills and none of the discomfort that comes from actually doing anything that might require courage or audacity.**

But while Bruce has no qualms about telling a reporter all about his top-secret resistance squad and its top-secret plans to undermine the new OWG, he draws the line at letting Buck sit in on their meeting:

"I'm afraid not," Bruce said. "I think you'd find it interesting and I personally believe it would help convince you, but it is limited to our leadership team. Truth is, I'll be going over with them tomorrow what you and I are talking about tonight, so it would be a rerun for you anyway."

So Buck can't come to the meeting because they'll be discussing things that only the leadership team can discuss and which he's already heard anyway. Huh?

Bruce offers a lukewarm invitation to their Sunday church service:

"You're very welcome, but I must say, it's going to be the same theme I use every Sunday. You've heard it from Ray Steele and you've heard it from me. If hearing it one more time would help, then come on out. ..."

Worth noting here that this is, I believe, the only time in the entire book that anyone other than his dead wife calls Captain Steele "Ray."

Buck stood and stretched. He had kept Bruce long past midnight, and he apologized.

"No need," Bruce said. "This is what I do."

"Do you know where I can get a Bible?"

"I've got one you can have," Bruce said.

So Buck departs, still unsaved and thus still uncloaked in godly protection from Nicolae's evil powers. Will he be saved in time? The suspense is killing me. (No, wait, that's the writing. I knew something was killing me.)

The chapter closes with a final two-paragraph vignette inside the exclusive leadership team meeting.

Bruce told the story of Buck Williams, without using his name or mentioning his connection with Rayford and Chloe. Chloe cried silently as the group prayed for his safety and for his soul.

The point of view for this scene is a bit confusing. Thus far the pattern has been for every scene to be from either Buck's or Rayford's perspective. Yet Buck isn't present for this scene, so it can't be from his POV. And the narrator mentions that Chloe is crying, so it can't be from Rayford's POV either since, as a rule, he never notices when his daughter is crying.

Chloe is crying because she knows Bruce is talking about her boyfriend. But I also like to think she's crying because she's smarter than Bruce and she realizes that Pastor Moron has put all their lives in jeopardy by telling her unsaved boyfriend all their secrets before he goes to hang out with Mr. Mind Control. ("The minds behind every military, diplomatic and covert operation in the galaxy, and you put them in a room with a psychic.")

- - - - - - - - - - - -

* Seriously, what's with the bears already? I finished A Prayer for Owen Meany and I thought, "That was beautiful and, for once, no bears." But then I started wondering what the absence of bears might mean ...

** This is why I find the manipulation of children in Jesus Camp horrifying, but I'm not terribly worried about their "revolution" succeeding. As with most of the theocratic strands of American Christianity, I'm more concerned with what the leaders of such groups are doing to their own followers than I am about what they might actually do to the rest of us. This is true of those leaders as well -- they're far more concerned with manipulating their followers than with changing the rest of the world. That doesn't mean, of course, that we can afford to be completely unconcerned with their external agenda and its effects on their external victims, but in opposing that agenda we have always to keep in mind that such groups internal victims are no less real, and no less victims. That's why, for example, I've tried here to focus my criticism on LaHaye & Jenkins as the peddlers of this dangerous nonsense and to avoid, for the most part, mocking their millions of followers.

Comments

[Amaryllis]

Praline@7:49: *snicker*

it seems that in the LB-verse we humans have free will when it comes to our dealings with God, but not when it comes to our dealings with Satan.
Which is precisely why I never enjoyed the stereotypical vampire story. It never seemed fair, or logical, that someone could be turned into a creature of evil, a lost soul, just by being bitten in her sleep a few times. I don't know know much about these RPGs and such *mutters creakily in her corner*, but as they say in the Harry Potter books, you have to really mean it.

[Enlightened Layperson]

The Tribulation Force stirred something deep within Buck. It took him back to his earliest days as a writer, when he believed he had the power to change the world.

I thought the whole point of LB is that you can't change the world. The overall outcome is predestined. The most you can hope to do is save individual souls in the inevitable destruction. Which means that properly speaking the Tribulation Force's mission should not be to opposed the Antichrist (he is unopposable until the final battle) but to look for converts. Which also means that if the Antichrist uses his mind control to learn about them, it may speed up their martyrdom, but it will not affect the final outcome.

What kind of action/adventure story is that?

[Reynard]

"I warn you not to go there without protection."

(I'll refrain here, but I'll be disappointed if this isn't pounced on in the comment section.)

Mind condoms!

"Mr. Williams, you have to do what you have to do, but I'm pleading with you. If you go into that meeting without God in your life, you will be in mortal and spiritual danger."

Okay, the "spiritual" danger thing I understand, but the "mortal" danger thing I don't. IIRC according to the Book of Revelations (which I've read, but it's been a while), *EVERYONE* is in "mortal" danger! (Plagues, falling meteors, SciFi Channel-style locusts, etc.) RTCs are simply in a bit more "mortal" danger because of their refusal to conform to Nicky's OWG dictatorship.

Spalanzani: For God, maybe that hand sign Jesus is always shown doing, where he holds up his index and middle finger together (sort of like a peace sign only without the fingers spread apart).

I went to elementary school in Israel, where for holding up our hand (to ask a question, answer one, etc.) we were supposed to hold up our hand with one finger pointing up.

There was also holding up your hand with index and middle finger together. It was a silent "Teacher, may I go to the washroom?"

Dash: Shadow Wolf: I think Falconer wins the thread...
And a follow-up from Pointatinfinity for the two-point conversion.

Thanks!

[pointatinfinity]

Me at 8:28 PM.

[Ursula L]

Which is precisely why I never enjoyed the stereotypical vampire story. It never seemed fair, or logical, that someone could be turned into a creature of evil, a lost soul, just by being bitten in her sleep a few times. I don't know know much about these RPGs and such *mutters creakily in her corner*, but as they say in the Harry Potter books, you have to really mean it.

And yet, one can easily find oneself doing evil, supporting evil, and having evil done in one's name, without meaning anything. You're in the wrong place at the wrong time, you're following orders, the leaders of your nation make a decision - and as you (metaphorically) sleep, you find yourself enmeshed in evil, with no clear path out of it.

If people only did evil when they meant evil, the world would be a much better place. Evil is done by the well-meaning, the unthinking, the dutiful, the mentally ill, or the frightened and confused.

To go back to the Rowling story: it takes evil intent to pull off "Adavra Kedavra." You have to mean it. Yet many people were killed by those on both sides of the war, without having the full intent to kill which that particular spell requires.

[cjmr's husband]

There was also holding up your hand with index and middle finger together. It was a silent "Teacher, may I go to the washroom?"

Bill Cosby reports that he had to put up 1 or 2 fingers depending on what they needed to do. "I got an A in bathroom going!"

[pointatinfinity]

And yet, one can easily find oneself doing evil, supporting evil, and having evil done in one's name, without meaning anything. You're in the wrong place at the wrong time, you're following orders, the leaders of your nation make a decision - and as you (metaphorically) sleep, you find yourself enmeshed in evil, with no clear path out of it.

If people only did evil when they meant evil, the world would be a much better place. Evil is done by the well-meaning, the unthinking, the dutiful, the mentally ill, or the frightened and confused.

To go back to the Rowling story: it takes evil intent to pull off "Adavra Kedavra." You have to mean it. Yet many people were killed by those on both sides of the war, without having the full intent to kill which that particular spell requires.

That is what I've always wondered --- does any person* ever think "I am doing evil" even when pointing an Avada Kedavra-charged wand or a machine gun at another human being knowing that in a picosecond the other human being is going to die? They may think "I will kill him" but they do not think "I am doing evil" --- they think "He is evil and must be destroyed" or "He is against our dreams of a bright future" or "He will kill me if I don't."

Or so I imagine; I have never killed anyone, but I have rationalized harmful actions plenty of times.

*Unless they are mentally ill in such a way that they believe Satan is possessing them or something and they are evil incarnate. But those are much fewer than the people who kill others every day with other thoughts.

[Hawker Hurricane]

Buck the Girat reminds me of some reporters I've heard about during the past 7 years... they learn all sorts of amazing things from people in the government, things critical to the governance of this country that the electorate would really need to know, and then NEVER tell these things because if they told them, they would lose thier access to the powerful and would never again learn amazing things. Washington political reporters remain silent because it is more important to maintain access than it is to report stories...

=========================================
And then the meeting goes horribly for Buck, and when he gets back, Bruce is all "You must confront Carpathia."

"But I just did confront Carpathia! And I haven't had any more training since then, so..."
"So what? *dies*"
-----------------------------------------------
Allow me to modify your scene, Ryan. Bruce has a different final line...
"There is (gasp) another (gasp) GIRAT...

Buck: Bruce said there was another Girat.
Ray: He was talking about your twin sister.
Buck: Chloe!
Ray: Your insight does you credit.

OK, I have to end this, it's getting squicky.

[Amaryllis]

UrsulaL: I was referring to the difference between doing an evil action, to which we are all too prone, and being a totally damned creature. If Buck is in such "spiritual danger," I'd take that as referring to something more than the chance of being killed during Nicky's takeover scene, or being powerless to prevent others from being harmed. It's eternal damnation we're talking about here, according to L&J. And you need to know and say the magic words to protect yourself from that? It's Just Not Fair.

Yeah, I know, life isn't fair. But where there's life, there's the possibility of redemption. The unthinking may may wake up, the dutiful may rebel, the confused and frightened may be comforted and emboldened.

Whereas, in a vampire tale, once bitten, that's the end of your freedom to choose goodness over evil. Your only hope is the stake through the heart, and oblivion.

And as I type, someone's turned on "Choral Evensong." And they're reading from the end of what I prefer to call the Apocalypse of St. John. There it all is - the new heaven and the new earth, the lake of fire, the twelve gates to the city. Suitable background for Left-Behind Friday!

[Spalanzani]

pointatinfinity: I went to elementary school in Israel, where for holding up our hand (to ask a question, answer one, etc.) we were supposed to hold up our hand with one finger pointing up.

There was also holding up your hand with index and middle finger together. It was a silent "Teacher, may I go to the washroom?"

That's interesting. I grew up in Missouri, so I can't say how widespread the portrayal of Jesus as holding up his index finger and middle finger together is. I've actually asked a few people, including a priest, why Jesus is shown making that hand-sign and none of them knew.

[Ursula L]

The anti-antichrist counter spell seems rather odd. What, exactly, serves to distinguish saying the spell effectively from merely saying the words?

On the one hand, this is strict "faith, not works" - any action that indicates one actually means the words of the counter-spell is not only unnecessary, but suspect.

On the other hand, BB, as a pastor, and Rayford, as a regular (and supposedly respected) church-goer, must have said the magic words many times, and yet the mere act of saying the words wasn't enough for the spell to "take."

Some type of belief in PMD prophecy seems to be necessary - yet the words of the spell make no mention of tribulation or rapture.

BB seems to have believed in the rapture - but been left behind for want of works, that is, his slacking at his responsibilities as visitation pastor. A practice he continues now, yet he is the heroic and indisputably saved leader of the tribulation force.

The only possible conclusion from the mess of this book is that L&J themselves are not certain about how to "get saved" according to their own theology.

[pointatinfinity]

pointatinfinity: I went to elementary school in Israel, where for holding up our hand (to ask a question, answer one, etc.) we were supposed to hold up our hand with one finger pointing up.

There was also holding up your hand with index and middle finger together. It was a silent "Teacher, may I go to the washroom?"

Spalanzani: That's interesting. I grew up in Missouri, so I can't say how widespread the portrayal of Jesus as holding up his index finger and middle finger together is. I've actually asked a few people, including a priest, why Jesus is shown making that hand-sign and none of them knew.

Okay, less facetiously: Jesus figures around where I live now (Canada) also make that sign. I do not know that much about Protestant Christianity (lurking in the L.B. threads taught me a great deal) but in Orthodox Christianity, there used to be a division between crossing yourself with two fingers (which we were told symbolized God and man together) and crossing yourself with three fingers (which symbolized the Trinity.) The difference between the old two-fingered Sign of the Cross and the new three-fingered was one of the most famous points of contention of the Raskol of the Russian Orthodox Church. The Wikipedia article is illustrated with a detail of a famous painting, "Boyarunya (Lady) Morozova", where that lady, arrested and imprisoned (later starved in prison) for keeping to the old faith, holds up two fingers as a sign that she is sticking to her old ways.

[pointatinfinity]

So yes, the two fingers together may symbolize the dual nature of Christ as God and man.

[Technomad]

"Pastor, I am prepared with a power that the Antichrist cannot face!"

And, later: "Ah HA, Nicolae Mountainrange-name! You may be able to recite countries, but I have you whipped, you cheap imitation of a Warner Brother! Behold...the power of Tom Lehrer!!!"

*bursting into song:*
"There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium,
There's hydrogen, and oxygen, and nitrogen, and rhenium..."

*Nicolae Phony-Romanian cowers back, hissing:* "Ach, sss! He hass uss, my preciouss! We's lossst!" *He then turns and runs off the stage, while everybody throws tomatoes at Buck because he can't carry a tune in a bucket*

I wonder how many tomatoes people will throw at me for this?

[practicallyevil]

SciFi Channel-style locusts

Unconvincingly computer generated?

"I don't think I'm going to get hypnotized or anything."

"Dear Satan, Prince of Lies,

Please excuse Cameron from being hypnotized, he has a medical condition.

Signed,
-Bucks Mom."

[Ursula L]

And, later: "Ah HA, Nicolae Mountainrange-name! You may be able to recite countries, but I have you whipped, you cheap imitation of a Warner Brother! Behold...the power of Tom Lehrer!!!"

*bursting into song:*
"There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium,
There's hydrogen, and oxygen, and nitrogen, and rhenium..."

*Nicolae Phony-Romanian cowers back, hissing:* "Ach, sss! He hass uss, my preciouss! We's lossst!" *He then turns and runs off the stage, while everybody throws tomatoes at Buck because he can't carry a tune in a bucket*

And Nicolae TheMountainRange Lobachevski was his name!

[hapax]

The upraised two fingers of the right hand was a standard iconography in late Antiquity for teaching and/or blessing, not exclusive to the Christian symbolism.

Which isn't to say that it wasn't later freighted with additional meaning, most commonly the dual nature of Christ.

My too-geeky-for-her-shirt daughter mentioned recently that she caught herself making the sign of the Five Gods when startled. "Thank goodness," she said, "that I didn't inadvertently fold in my thumb!"

[Hawker Hurricane]

I'd like to write something about the Tribulation Force to the tune of "Send the Marines!", but Trib Force has too many sylables...
(Yes, I know, it doesn't matter how many sylables you cram into a line)

[yeltar]

@ hapax: ...making the sign of the Five Gods....

Oh. Four of us here now, confirmed. One or two others, maybes.

Do you have your The Sharing Knife: Passage yet, or are you following that universe?

[pointatinfinity]

"Pastor, I am prepared with a power that the Antichrist cannot face!"

And, later: "Ah HA, Nicolae Mountainrange-name! You may be able to recite countries, but I have you whipped, you cheap imitation of a Warner Brother! Behold...the power of Tom Lehrer!!!"

*bursting into song:*
"There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium,
There's hydrogen, and oxygen, and nitrogen, and rhenium..."

*Nicolae Phony-Romanian cowers back, hissing:* "Ach, sss! He hass uss, my preciouss! We's lossst!" *He then turns and runs off the stage, while everybody throws tomatoes at Buck because he can't carry a tune in a bucket*

That reminds me of Robert Weinberg's A Logical Magician where the premise was that the forces of evil (mythical entities appearing in modern life) are equivalent to the forces of chaos, and so can be conquered with the forces of order: mathematics, and logic. The climax involves a monster being annihilated by a running laptop. Great fun. A friend and I were inspired by that idea to parody the Lord of the Rings with Gandalf thwarting the Balrog by shouting the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus at it.

Speaking of which:

Selcaby: LH&J, as Fred has pointed out before, are not so much pro-Christ as anti-Antichrist.

Doesn't that mean Fred's posts are anti-anti-Antichrist? And anyone who doesn't like them is anti-anti-anti-Antichrist?

It depends on whether the order of the anti function is finite or infinite. If it is finite, we will eventually come back to Christ (or pro-Christ). Obviously the order is not 2, because if it were, anti-anti-Christ would cancel and the Tribbles would actually be pro-Christ, which they aren't. I've a hunch that it's anti-anti...(666 times)...anti-Christ gets you back full circle.

[Ursula L]

How about instead of "Send the Marines" you say "Trib Force Intervines" - An extra sylable, but if you make the quarter note for "Send" into two eighth notes for "Trib Force" it still flows well for singing.

[Cyllan]

Do you have your The Sharing Knife: Passage yet, or are you following that universe?

Have it, read it, passed it on to the husband-entity. Hurrah for pre-orders on Amazon.

[Hawker Hurricane]

When Nicky makes a move
That God does not approve
Who is that makes the scene?
Jesus Christ and God of love
They have their time above
But First!
Tribforce intervenes!

We'll send them all we've got
Ray Steele and Buck GIRAT
Remember those exciting writing scenes?
To the phones intrepidly!
But not too smart or logic-ally
What do they do?
Trib force intervenes!

For They'll go to Hell
Unless they say the spell
They've got to be rejected
All these kooks protected
Until Rays first
Wife can be resurected!
----------------------------
I guess I better keep the day job.

[yeltar]

Me: >> Do you have your The Sharing Knife: Passage yet, or are you following that universe? <<

Cyllan: > Have it, read it, passed it on to the husband-entity. Hurrah for pre-orders on Amazon. <

Oh my. Five confirmed; I hadn't spotted you, Cyllan. Anyone else?

I pre-ordered locally, then unexpectedly received a copy as a gift. Bought the order anyhow, so as not to be in bad odor with the bookseller, and found someone onlist whose budget hadn't allowed her to purchase yet. Shipped it today.

I'm being most leisurely in my reading so far. Well, probably can because so far the pacing is allowing that. More than likely will end in the usual page-blur.... *smiles*

[Ursula L]

Members of the Force,
All love prophetic wars,
Revelation - those exciting fighting scenes!
To Bible pages flipping we,
Try to take things literally,
Footnotes!
Tribforce intervenes!

[Amaryllis]

Oh my. Five confirmed; I hadn't spotted you, Cyllan. Anyone else?

I haven't read Passages yet; is it good? I thought the first two were okay, but I really want to get back to the Five Gods. After all, we've only had three so far - we're not done!

[Apsalar]

I ordered Passage today!

[Bugmaster]

A friend and I were inspired by that idea to parody the Lord of the Rings with Gandalf thwarting the Balrog by shouting the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus at it.

One of the many fiction books you can find in Morrowind describes the adventures of Vivec, the legendary warrior-poet (and, later, god). In one of these stories, he defeats an ancient monster by applying calculus to it. He doesn't just throw a calculus book at it, mind you -- he actually takes its derivative. Spiritually speaking. It's neat. Stop looking at me like that.

[Bugmaster]

What's this Five Gods stuff, anyway ? They don't sound familiar...

[pointatinfinity]

He doesn't just throw a calculus book at it, mind you -- he actually takes its derivative. Spiritually speaking. It's neat. Stop looking at me like that.

I am looking at you like that because I am thinking a similar thing (monster getting mathematically transformed) happens in one of the stories in Stanislaw Lem's Cyberiad (great book, has a marvellous love poem of algebra in it.)

[Chrissl]

@Bugmaster: What's this Five Gods stuff, anyway ? They don't sound familiar...

Lois McMaster Bujold's first non-SF series: The Curse of Chalion, Paladin of Souls, The Hallowed Hunt. The universe has (duh) five gods: Father, Mother, Son, Daughter and Bastard. Heretics deny the Bastard, so use only four fingers.

IIRC, the author said she was tired of all the theology after those three books and wanted a rest. Too bad: I liked them *lots* better than the Sharing Knife series. The Forces of Evil in TSK are just too squicky and amorphous for my taste, and it's taking too long to figure out what's really going on with them. I've decided to pass up the rest of TSK till they come out in paperback and I can read the third and fourth (last?) together.

But popular demand has more or less pressured her to return to the Miles Vorkosigan universe for another book, so perhaps she can be persuaded to do more Five Gods books too... OTOH, no one can *make* someone's imagination come up with more good ideas. {sigh}

[jamoche]

There's a Bujold book signing in San Francisco tomorrow; I'll get my copy then.

[Bugmaster]

Re: Five Gods
Oh great, now my reading list is growing once again. And I only just brought it under control !
Anyway, the Five Gods sound similar to the Westerosi Seven (WARNING: mild spoilers). I really like their symmetry: three male archetypes (*), three female archetypes, and one Stranger, who stands with them, yet apart...

(*) Cue angry feminist barrage in 5..4..3...

[kayla]

Ok ok this is my first time posting, but I just had to say that the firefly reference was awesome!! hahahaha

[Mary]

I'm a Bujold fan, Whedon fan, Stanislaw Lem fan, and "Elder Scrolls" fan. This is why I like lurking here.

(And I think it was thanks to Fred that I discovered The Wire and Veronica Mars.)

[Bugmaster]

Regarding derivatives:
Lem did it funnier. Morrowind did it better. That's my opinion, anyway... Though Lem is so unique, it's tough to compare him against other writers.

[Sniffnoy]

It depends on whether the order of the anti function is finite or infinite. If it is finite, we will eventually come back to Christ (or pro-Christ). Obviously the order is not 2, because if it were, anti-anti-Christ would cancel and the Tribbles would actually be pro-Christ, which they aren't. I've a hunch that it's anti-anti...(666 times)...anti-Christ gets you back full circle.

Why assume it's a bijection? I'm going to suggest that instead perhaps anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-Christ=anti-anti-anti-Christ and it loops from there.

[Sniffnoy]

Oh, at this point it's probably worth noting that the last LB entry still has not been tagged as such. FWIW.

[Ruana]

"Did you see the news today?" Buck asked.

"Not today," Bruce said. "I've been in meetings ..."

We can be generous here - we can give the LH & J the benefit of the doubt and assume that these 'meetings' were with distressed parishioners, and that's why Bruce felt he had to switch off the phone.

But... meetings. Plural. Unless he was having multiple meetings with the same individual(s), how is it that nobody who came to the later ones had heard the Big News?

Nah, I'm not going to be generous. They wanted the Big Connecting Of The Dots scene between Bruce and Buck, so they made up a lame excuse without bothering to think through what these 'meetings' actually were. They didn't involve the Gary Stus, so they don't matter. Par for the course.

[Praline]

"That's why we've been hearing all those clicking sounds on my answering machine," Bruce said. "I turned the ringer off on the phone, so the only way you can tell when a call comes in is by the clicking on the answering machine. People are calling to let me know. ..."

Am I the only one who's having trouble figuring out the grammar of this sentence? The fact that it uses the phrsae 'answering machine' twice in as many sentences doesn't help, but it's really costing a lot of effort to work out what he's trying to say. I think he means 'That's why I've been getting a lot of calls', but without the phone to hand and Bruce pointing at it, I feel lost in a morass of telephone engineering.

Does everyone in America have phones that work like that? I mean, am I just failing to grasp something obvious because British Telecom has a different answering service set-up? Or is everyone else as confused as me?

[sulis]

BRUCE: I warn you not to go there without protection.

BUCK: I don't think I'm going to get hypnotized or anything

BRUCE: Mr. Williams, you have to do what you have to do, but I'm pleading with you. If you go into that meeting without God in your life, you will be in mortal and spiritual danger. You are in terrible peril.

BUCK: Look, let me go back in there and face the peril.

BRUCE: No, it's too perilous.

BUCK: Look, it's my duty as the GIRAT to sample as much peril as I can.

BRUCE: No, we've got to have a leadership meeting for the Tribulation Force. (You can't come.)

BUCK: Oh, let me have just a little bit of peril?

BRUCE: No. It's unhealthy.

BUCK: I bet you're gay.

BRUCE: No, I'm not. I'm NOT! I'm NOT!

[Praline]

"It's a band of serious-minded people who will boldly oppose the Antichrist."

The register is all over the place in that sentence. 'Band', assuming they aren't going to play music, implies eyepatches, raffishness, raggle-taggle banditry. So does 'boldly'. But a band of 'serious-minded people'? It's like talking about a mob of negotiators, a riot of sober citizens. I'm picturing them roasting goat over their campfires while BB points to notes on his display board.

Presumably this is intended to appeal to readers who are themselves, dutiful, serious people who behave themselves but would secretly like a bit more adventure in their lives. If so, it's sneaky; listening to L&J is really not the way to make your life more fun.

[Chris]

OH JOHN RINGO NO.

I've read it, I can't un-read it! Seriously, just reading that synopsis made me cover my ears and scream. If anything, it sounds even worse than "Gor", because at least "Gor" used an obviously fictional other-worldly setting for its "all women need to be raped and enslaved"... uh, theme? Plot? Message?

If John Ringo wants to wank to fantasies about being a renegade Navy Seal who saves girls from the evil twisted Arabs (and then rapes them!), that's really fine by me. But don't inflict it on the rest of the world!

[Jos]

But don't inflict it on the rest of the world!

If you read the full review, John Ringo didn't want to inflict it upon the rest of the world. Apparently, he just want to get it out of his system and then leave it on his harddrive to rot.

Unfortunately, he did mention it some people here and there and his fans did want him to publish it. So he and his publisher published it.

However, as truly awful this series is, it isn't quite as bad as Gor. At least this series has one female character who does not fall utterly in submissive love with a man after a good raping.

And God, do I feel dirty now.

[Amaryllis]

It seems as though he's saying, "As a senior pastor, I have authority over my congregation, but since you're not yet part of that congregation, I can't yet give you orders." It's the sort of comment that would make me extremely reluctant to join this man's church. Yeah, me too. But that's exactly what he's saying. The RTCs are very big on chains of command, in all contexts: the home, the state, and the church too. At least according to some of them, Authority must be understood by every Christian since it is the entire basis of our relationship with Christ. Faith, love and hope, it seems, have little to do with it.

[Wesley Parish]

"I'm sorry," Bruce said. "I have no authority over you,

but you! will! respect! mah! authoritah!

And I misread this for a moment as "prawn":

Buck will be going to meet the Antichrist who is sure to turn him into the devil's pawn by using his mind-control powers.

Now that would add an antipodean flavour to the story, wouldn't it? "Put another prawn on the barbie, dear! The Third Circle is just about hot enough for that new journalist you picked up on Earth."

The Tribulation Force stirred something deep within Buck.

Sticking two fingers up in the time-honoured manner he had learnt while holidaying as a child in Israel with his parents, he hurried off to the bathroom to relieve himself.

"If you go into that meeting without God in your life, you will be in mortal and spiritual danger."

Oy vay! And you will vote for Shas in the Chicago municipal elections! And Republican in the British national elections in spite of not ever being a Brit! And Hamas in the Kiel municipal elections ... and Social Credit in the Tongan national elections ... and ... and ... your fate will be far too terrible to contemplate ....

[Amaryllis]

Praline, last night: There's just a note of discomfort in that word 'plotting' that says a lot about this book. Any kind of opposition to the powers that be, however legitimate, has L&J hearing the rumble of gunpowder barrels.

Rayford Steele, 'twas his intent,
to blow up the One World Government.
Trib Force plotters are in the know,
Nick-of-the-Mountains to overthrow.
By God's planning Ray survives,
Though all around may lose their lives.
Remember, remember, the world's dying embers,
tribulation, boredom and plot.
I see no reason why Left-Behind treason
won't mercifully be forgot.

Yes, I know: I should keep my day job too.
And somehow, "penny for the Ray" just doesn't have the right ring to it.

[The Amazing Kim]

"Elder Scrolls" fan. This is why I like lurking here.

What, because you don't want to earn any more Speechcraft points before you level up?

[Chris]

@Amaryllis: beautiful. That goes for all the poetry in this thread, BTW.

@Jos: good point. I don't see John Norman ever writing a character like Katya. Also, Ringo has the prostitute characters talk to each other about their plight, and even the Gary Stu says that "most whores probably aren't volunteers". It's like there's a latent goodness trying to bubble up under all the porn and wish-fulfilment. Plus, I think a person who gets off on the thought of rape, yet controls it with his better instincts, would make a compelling main character in a good book.

If Ringo knew what trash this was, I don't think he has much of an excuse for publishing it, though. If his publisher held a gun to his head, that's another thing.