Nuclear TFWOT

(That's Thursday Flamewar Open Thread, of course.)

So who said the following, and in response to whom?

"It is not probably prudent ... in today's world to threaten to obliterate any other country and in many cases civilians resident in such a country."

Comments

lol, Jesu, if we weren't on different continents we should totally hit a con together...

But that's kind of my point, honestly. What with the rubber dresses, the revealing cosplay outfits, the amount of random touching that people - male and female - tend to think is more ok at a con than elsewhere... I'm not being facetious, I really am kind of scratching my head wondering why the buttons even got a mention. Frankly, as one who rather enjoys the relaxed personal boundaries so common at cons, I think a button explaining whether I am or am not at home to a request for random groping might, well... cut through a lot of the awkwardness, honestly!

And... oh, I know I'm gonna get in trouble for this, I know I know I know I'm gonna get yelled at, but I just gotta say it. I followed your link, I read this Ferret guy, and I... I...

I kinda like him.

I'm sorry! I do! He reminds me of a lot of the dudes I hang out with. He doesn't seem like a bad guy; we'd probably get along swimmingly if we met in person. I just can't jump on the "he's a disgusting creep" bandwagon, I'm sorry.

[damnedyankee]

No, she needs to look tough. Or, in other words, she needs to look less weak. And Obama needs to look less elitist and McCain needs to look less old.

I'd settle for media that was less stupid, or at least not living in a parallel universe where flag pins and the wearing thereof trump the economy and a brutally stupid war.

[Cowboy Diva]

Raka, Thanks for noting that I had not yet RTFA; I was just trying to follow Froborr's concept of sexism/crankiness.
Your comment

The "no" buttons were only provided for women who felt more comfortable making explicit what was already an implicit rule: unless you are given specific license to do so, it is inappropriate to ask to touch a person.

seems to point up the issue I had with the whole idea; at what point should anyone feel it necessary to wear something that defines their stance on an issue out of fear of someone taking advantage of them? I can see wearing a button, patch or pin because I take pride in the position emblazoned on said device, but to have a situation where I will feel uncomfortable if I do not? Not fun, and kind of icky actually.

[swampman]

just want to point out that, as secondary sex characteristics and erogenous zones, it's not totally illogical that breasts have a different status than most other body parts

[swampman]

i mean, there's a pretty big degree of intimacy between a handshake and a handjob

[cjmr's husband]

...ladies

[Cowboy Diva]

er, swampman==cjmr's husband?

[cjmr]

Actually, I'm kinda hoping swampman =/= cjmr's husband...

[Kristy]

Well, yes, there's a difference between a handshake and a handjob, and it's good for all of us that we remain aware of that gap...

...but there's also a difference between a handjob and a friendly breast-fondle. I mean, through the clothing, even! Come on. It just seems like we're overreacting a little.

Honestly, the clarification post cleared up a lot about how widespread it was, how it was conducted, how people responded to it, etc, and it really does seem pretty darn innocent. Good clean breast-touchin' fun, if you will.

[cjmr's boyfriend]

Me too

[David]

I actually know The Ferrett a little; he used to write for a Magic: the Gathering site back in the day. The professional Magic scene was (and is) a very difficult place to be a woman, and he often wrote about the need for tolerance and mutual respect. We haven't corresponded in years, but he never struck me as a sleazebag. More personally liberal than just about everyone else on Earth, but never a sleazebag.

[Jesurgislac]

Tonio: In another thread, I suggested that the story is probably a myth, since I've heard similar unbelievable stories about celebrities like Ellison that turned out to be false.

I was thinking of Harlan Ellison grabbing Connie Willis's breast when he was on stage with her at the Hugo Awards in 2006. That's on video - if you google Harlan Ellison on Youtube it'll probably come up. In any case, Harlan Ellison admits doing it - claims it was a joke, though Connie Willis didn't think so.

Kristy: I'm sorry! I do! He reminds me of a lot of the dudes I hang out with. He doesn't seem like a bad guy; we'd probably get along swimmingly if we met in person. I just can't jump on the "he's a disgusting creep" bandwagon, I'm sorry.

No, it's okay: I know a lot of young fangirls who find that kind of creep amusing and funny, until they grow up. That's what the fairy story Red Riding Hood is all about: the wolf is not a bad guy, until the day you realize he ate your granny and he's going to eat you and he'll still have a big smile on his face.

[damnedyankee]

...but there's also a difference between a handjob and a friendly breast-fondle. I mean, through the clothing, even! Come on. It just seems like we're overreacting a little.

I have very simple criteria for this: Would my wife kill me if she saw me doing it to someone else? Let's see how it breaks down...

Handshake: No.

Breast fondle: Yes.

[Jesurgislac]

Cowboy Diva: seems to point up the issue I had with the whole idea; at what point should anyone feel it necessary to wear something that defines their stance on an issue out of fear of someone taking advantage of them? I can see wearing a button, patch or pin because I take pride in the position emblazoned on said device, but to have a situation where I will feel uncomfortable if I do not? Not fun, and kind of icky actually.

As someone else noted, for sf writers and artists - for anyone who works in publishing - an SF convention is as much where you go to work as where you go to play. Kristy's imagining it's all jolly good fun: but I don't suppose she's thought what it's like if you're a young aspiring writer, and the senior editor of a house you hope to be published by - or a senior member of SFWA, whom you hoped would mentor you - is handing out these buttons, and no one's saying you have to put them on but everyone's making jokes about how the women who don't are prudes and anti-sex, and whether you pick the green or the red, the senior editor of the publishing house asks if he can fondle your breasts, and you really don't want him to, but saying no is a bit weird and then his friend asks if he can... and meanwhile, Kristy, absolutely oblivious to your misery and despair, is pinning a badge on herself and giggling and going isn't this fun!

And that's why I'd never want to go to a con with Kristy, even if we were on the same continent, because I've never liked the kind of people who have never noticed or cared about bullying and harassment.

[Cowboy Diva]

Ah Jesu. To mention Red Riding Hood is to reference one of my favorite Sondheim lines; "Nice is different than good."

[Majromax]

That's what the fairy story Red Riding Hood is all about: the wolf is not a bad guy, until the day you realize he ate your granny and he's going to eat you and he'll still have a big smile on his face.

Which is why little girls should always do exactly what their parents and authority figures tell them. They should especially never wander off and explore on their own. If they do, a big strong man may come to save them (depending on which version of the story you're considering.)

Oh, wait.

[cjmr]

Posted by: cjmr's boyfriend

????

Okay, unless John Barrowman (or one of my ex-s) just showed up*, this is getting a bit skeevish and creepy.

-----

*The latter, of course, being somewhat more likely than the former, but not by much...

[Kristy]

*sighs* Jesu... ok. Despite being told by other people that it's a lost cause, I have tried to treat you respectfully, and ask for that respect in return. You want to disagree with my ideas, fine. But I still do not appreciate the personal attacks.

Your first post up there labels me, inaccurately, as a young fangirl who needs to grow up. The second one makes blithe assumptions about what I have and haven't thought about as well as what kind of person I am in general. Please stop doing that. (In addition, the second post seems willfully ignorant of what was actually going on at the con in question, which is why I posted the link to the clarification in the first place.)

I'm not even addressing the points you raised right now, because at this moment I'm too furious to even think clearly, and if I tried I'd probably start screaming at you.

[damnedyankee]

Which is why little girls should always do exactly what their parents and authority figures tell them. They should especially never wander off and explore on their own. If they do, a big strong man may come to save them (depending on which version of the story you're considering.)

Oh, wait.

Or trust that a smiling face and honeyed words mean that the stranger means you well.

[Jesurgislac]

Now this is a really good analysis of the dynamics of what's going on and why The Ferrett is a skanky ass.

[Fred Davis]

Surely this is just a really specific reworking of the hippy "free love" concept isn't it?

Don't tell me the nerds are gonna be this generation's version of hippies, I had my heart set on the yiffers being the modern hippies, because then the Sci-Fi shows of the future would have people travelling back in time to the 00's having to quickly aquire large furry animal costumes and pretend to "log" on their "intersite", and hilarity would be forced to ensue.

No flying cars, no personal jetpacks, NO MOON BASES, and now the nerds are turning into creepy hippies. This decade is just one huge let down after another ;_;

No, it's okay: I know a lot of young fangirls who find that kind of creep amusing and funny, until they grow up.

You mean lolita not red riding hood surely? RRH is more about "giant transvestite wolf tricks little girl into acts of pickled cannabalism, before eating the child as well a her grandmother."

I can has 9 squillion page tangent about the "moral" of the RRH story? Nroaw?

[Jesurgislac]

Kristy: Your first post up there labels me, inaccurately, as a young fangirl who needs to grow up.

I made that mistake with Rosina, too. Well, if you're not a young fangirl, you're old enough to know better....

The second one makes blithe assumptions about what I have and haven't thought about as well as what kind of person I am in general.

Not at all. I am not in the least blithe, and I am going strictly by what you said: you couldn't see a problem with these buttons about boob-squeezing, and therefore, you couldn't see a problem with all the issues involved with aspiring SF writers and others in the publishing field being harassed by - or in front of - people whom they hope to employ them or mentor them. You couldn't, in other words, see a problem with bullying and sexual harassment in a work-related situation.

If, of course, it had never occurred to you that there are such situations at SF cons, then we are back to the problem that you are young/inexperienced/ignorant and in denial.

[practicallyevil]

seems to point up the issue I had with the whole idea; at what point should anyone feel it necessary to wear something that defines their stance on an issue out of fear of someone taking advantage of them? I can see wearing a button, patch or pin because I take pride in the position emblazoned on said device, but to have a situation where I will feel uncomfortable if I do not? Not fun, and kind of icky actually.

I doubt the red pins were necessary to not get fondled, I thought they were and added form of protection against not getting fondled. Say for instance a group of neighbors believed the neighborhood they were inhabiting was safe enough that they could afford the risk of leaving their doors unlocked all the time in order to foster a sense of community. Some other neighbors may feel that this sort of activity would lead to an increase in attempted burglaries and so buy a security system or dead-bolt for added security. Neither the open door neighbors, nor the added security neighbors are wrong to do what they do, the open doors feel they may throw caution to the wind in order to make a social statement, the added security neighbors want the peace of mind a good lock provides. The "yes," buttons are for making a social statement, the "no," buttons are for peace of mind.

the senior editor of the publishing house asks if he can fondle your breasts, and you really don't want him to, but saying no is a bit weird and then his friend asks if he can...

Well to be fair it was weird of the editor to ask in the first place, (unless she was wearing a button indicating it was okay), so the author has every right to politely refuse and not have the decision to do so held against her.

On a side note, I just read some more of the Ferrets writings, and while he still strikes me as creepy, I suppose I could give him the benefit of the doubt. I would however gauge his attitude toward women thoroughly before having anything else.

On another side note, I'm heading to Uni-Con at Franklin Pierce College in Rindge New Hampshire this saturday, and I wouldn't mind at all if you accompanied me Kristy. (To clarify, I don't go to that college, I don't live in that town, and I don't even live in that state, so any online stalkers are going to be disappointed. Also I'm only half serious about the invite Kristy, I just figured you needed cheering up after Jesu snubbed you, but if you're in the area I could possibly have you snuck in for free like I'm going to be).

[Rosina]

Well to be fair it was weird of the editor to ask in the first place, (unless she was wearing a button indicating it was okay), so the author has every right to politely refuse and not have the decision to do so held against her.

And that will make it all right, of course, because absolutely no one - male or female - ever takes sexual refusal or favours into account when awarding contracts or promotions, filling job vacancies or anything other exercise of power. I can only hope that practicallyevil was being ironic.

I support Jesurgislac on this - it's a bad idea, an inadequate's wet-dream. More fool the women who go along with it, since there seems to be nothing in it for them. Granting sexual favours to people to whom you otherwise wouldn't allow such favours is not 'empowerment': putting peer pressure on other women is acting as an enabler for harassment.

[Bugmaster]

I think that all the people (of both genders, natch) on this thread who are casting the Open Source Boobs (*) project as an example of patriarchial oppression are missing the point. According to the linked articles, this project was initiated by women, and the participants were of both genders, and participation was entirely voluntary. If you wanted to shut it down, you would be stepping on the personal liberties of the participants, and, in my book, it's a big no-no.

To drive the point home, allow me to supply a scenario. Imagine that you're at the con. You're walking around, looking at stuff, and you happen to see a woman who prominently displays the pin: "You may be able to touch my breasts. Ask me how !"

You: Does this pin mean what I think it means ?
Woman: If you think it means, "I may allow you to touch my breasts if you ask nicely", then yes.
You: Take it off !
Woman: Why ?
You: ________

Can you fill in that blank with a statement that doesn't make you sound like an overbearingly moralizing Pontificating Person ? I can't think of anything, personally, but I'm interested to see your attempt.

One possible answer is, "because it makes me uncomfortable". However, this same objection has been previously applied to to miniskirts, jeans (especially on women !), ear piercings (especially on men!), holding hands in public, listening to Rock-N-Roll, and a host of other things. Today, most people (at least, here in CA) find this objection quaint.

Another possible answer is, "because you're destroying everything we feminists have worked so hard for all these years". However, if your feminism prevents women from doing what they freely chose to do, then I'd argue that your feminism has a design problem at its core. Of course, you can respond with, "these women are silly gooses, I know what's best for them better than they do", but then... You wouldn't take that kind of condescending attitude from a man, would you ? Does being a woman really entitle you to deliver it with impunity ?

(*) I also dislike the word "boobs", because of the "booby == stupid" association. Of course, I'm just a man, and I have moobs, not boobs, so my opinion is moot.

[Kristy]

Well, if you're not a young fangirl, you're old enough to know better....

Or I could just FUCKING DISAGREE WITH YOU. I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that agreeing with your opinion was necessary to admit me to the society of mature adults.

you couldn't see a problem with these buttons about boob-squeezing, and therefore, you couldn't see a problem with all the issues involved with aspiring SF writers and others in the publishing field being harassed by - or in front of - people whom they hope to employ them or mentor them.

Inaccurate. Mind-bogglingly inaccurate. Because, you see, the one does not imply the other, and therefore being ok with the one does not mean being ok with the other.

1) Out of thousands of con-goers, maybe 30-40 buttons were given out. This was hardly a wide-spread thing.

2) No one who wasn't wearing a button was asked. Period. That was the whole purpose of the buttons.

3) As explained in the post I linked to, no one was pushing buttons on people or making jokes about how the people without them were prudes. I quote: "Those buttons were given out by one woman only, who only gave them to people she could vouch for or who had been vouched… Because she had to trust that the people involved would be cool with it." There was no pressure and no bullying involved.

4) One of the key points in the whole endeavor was that if you asked and were told no, that was the end of it. And everyone involved was made fully aware of this.

The scenario you describe is nightmarish, to be sure, but it wasn't what happened. Could the project have gone too far and led to those types of situations? Certainly, with the wrong mix of people and incomplete control, and that's why the Ferret has publically stated that it shouldn't be repeated, because of that very danger. Did it? No. From all descriptions, it was handled well and respectfully. There are a lot of perfectly innocent things that could become skeevy and wrong if hijacked by asshats, but that doesn't mean that the original idea is bad.

I am aware of what goes on at a con. I know that aspiring writers use them to make connections. However, given the facts above, it seemed highly unlikely in the extreme that the scenario you described would come to pass.

practicallyevil: Thank you, you're very kind. However, I live in Florida, and am hosting a (if you'll pardon the phrase) veritable orgasm of geekery at my house on Saturday. Alas.

[Bugmaster]

And that will make it all right, of course, because absolutely no one - male or female - ever takes sexual refusal or favours into account when awarding contracts or promotions, filling job vacancies or anything other exercise of power

Um, I doubt that sci-fi fans at a con are really in any kind of position of power. Regardless of their gender. They have the power to deny you the possession of that Vivi (*) figurine that you wanted to buy, maybe, but that's about it.

(*) It happened to me. The scars run deep. *sniff*

[Bugmaster]

a veritable orgasm of geekery

This is the best piece of imagery I've read all day. The phrase is like an Escheresque fractal, growing tantalizingly more complex with every attempt to approach an understanding, branching out into separate dimensions at each juncture... It starts with swimming in water-cooled heatsinks as Magic cards rain from above, and goes on from there...

[Kristy]

Bugmaster - you are made of awesome. Thank you for being sane.

Rosina - people in positions of power (such as publishers) using that power to intimidate others is a Bad Thing and Should Be Stopped. Women pressuring other women into things they don't feel comfortable with is a Bad Thing and Should Be Stopped. If I had any reason to believe that either of those things were happening with the OSBP, I'd agree that it was a (say it with me) Bad Thing and Should Be Stopped. Nothing I've seen gives me any reason to believe that it was, however. Is it possible that it happened and no one's talked about it? Absolutely. All kinds of things are theoretically possible, and I can spin horror stories with the best of them. But we have no evidence to believe that any sort of harassment was actually going on.

As for the claim that "More fool the women who go along with it, since there seems to be nothing in it for them." *Shrugs* Well, and if you don't see any appeal, don't ask for a button. Pretty simple. But just because you don't see anything in it that appeals to you, please don't assume that all women share that view.

[yagowe]

Kristy: The scenario you describe is nightmarish, to be sure, but it wasn't what happened.

Ah, but you see, Jesu can imagine that it could happen, so it is therefore a valid argument. Oh, wait...

[Jesurgislac]

Kristy: Out of thousands of con-goers, maybe 30-40 buttons were given out. This was hardly a wide-spread thing.

Good. The problem is theFerrett, who wants it to become a widespread thing.

No one who wasn't wearing a button was asked. Period. That was the whole purpose of the buttons.

At least one con-goer described being handed the button, without any explanation of the background, while at a private party - she assumed it to be a private party thing, not a con-wide thing that theFerrett was describing - and, after putting it on, being asked. And feeling that she couldn't say no, since, after all, she had just agreed to put the badge on. If you are wholly unfamiliar with this kind of dynamic, I put that down to your youth and inexperience.

As explained in the post I linked to, no one was pushing buttons on people or making jokes about how the people without them were prudes.

As explained by TheFerrett, yes, they were. Or at least, TheFerrett - whom you think you'd get on with so well and find so amusing - was doing so. Are those the kind of jokes you find so amusing? Is the kind of guy who'll make those jokes the kind of guy you get on with so well?

One of the key points in the whole endeavor was that if you asked and were told no, that was the end of it. And everyone involved was made fully aware of this.

Not according to at least one witness who was there, and who was involved - by being given a badge. Not according to the testimony of TheFerrett, whom you liked so much and thought was so amusing, who describes accosting a complete stranger who was, because she was dressed in a skin-baring outfit, obviously open to having TheFerrett squeeze her breasts. You get on well with the kind of guy who thinks that a woman who's wearing a sketchy skin-baring hall costume at a con is a walking invitation to have her breasts fondled?

The scenario you describe is nightmarish, to be sure, but it wasn't what happened. Could the project have gone too far and led to those types of situations? Certainly, with the wrong mix of people and incomplete control

Yes. But TheFerrett was advocating just that - until several hundred feminists who weren't falling all over him going "wow, you're so amusing" pointed out to him that he was wrong. While you, meantime, are reading about how he accosts strange young women based on their hall costumes and asks to touch their breasts and thinking how well you would get on with a dude who does that.

I am aware of what goes on at a con. I know that aspiring writers use them to make connections. However, given the facts above, it seemed highly unlikely in the extreme that the scenario you described would come to pass.

Of course not: because most fans are not like TheFerrett, and do not like creeps like TheFerrett, and are perfectly willing to stand up and point out that TheFerrett is a disgusting creep. By his own account, he hangs out with young innocent fangirls who haven't twigged yet how repulsive he is - and fanboys like David who think he's very amusing and after all he isn't groping them.

[Spalanzani]

Thanks for the 'boob' help way upthread, yagowe and cjmr!

Bugmaster: "They have the power to deny you the possession of that Vivi (*) figurine that you wanted to buy, maybe, but that's about it.

(*) It happened to me. The scars run deep. *sniff*"

Which Vivi would that be? The black mage or the quasi-Egyptian princess?

[Froborr]

Kristy: You have to understand, in Bush's America Jesuland you're either with her or against her. If you ever disagree with her about anything at all, ever, then you're an Islamofascist terrorist agent of the patriarchy (unwittingly, if you're female, intentionally and maliciously otherwise). After all, if women are able to do what they choose with their own bodies, then the terrorists have already won feminism will suffer a terrible setback.

Seriously, though, just don't let Jesu get to you. She's like that with everyone. I think she's just so full of rage she's incapable of basic reading comprehension or making a cogent argument; she just spews vitriol endlessly. Once you're used to it, it can be quite entertaining.

[Bugmaster]

Which Vivi would that be?

The awesome one. So, obviously, the black mage. :-)

[Froborr]

Vivi *was* pretty awesome.

Rest of the cast... eh, not so much. Beatrix and Steiner weren't bad, I guess.

[Jesurgislac]

Froborr: After all, if women are able to do what they choose with their own bodies

...skanky men wouldn't be able to get laid.

[cjmr]

Jesurgislac,

Thanks for the synedochic link. Not only did she neatly summarize the problems I was having with the OSBP, but it helped me realize several things about why I am the way I am now. Which I'm sooo not going to go into here, but might on her comments thread.

[Froborr]

Actually, they probably still would get laid. Nobody's seen as skanky by *everyone*.

Oh, right, sorry, forgot who I was talking to. You see, Jesu, sometimes, different people have different emotional responses to the same stimuli. I know, I know, it's hard for you to understand, but it is possible for two people to respond differently to the same events, and that doesn't necessarily mean that the one who responds differently from you is somehow broken.

[tavella]

In another thread, I suggested that the story is probably a myth, since I've heard similar unbelievable stories about celebrities like Ellison that turned out to be false.

A myth? Harlan Ellison groped Connie Willis on stage at the fucking Hugos ceremony, and you think it's a *myth*?

[Jesurgislac]

cjmr: Thanks for the synedochic link. Not only did she neatly summarize the problems I was having with the OSBP, but it helped me realize several things about why I am the way I am now. Which I'm sooo not going to go into here, but might on her comments thread.

Yeah, I thought that post was brilliant.

Froborr: I know, it's hard for you to understand, but it is possible for two people to respond differently to the same events

Goodness, yes, Froborr, thank you for explaining to me that, although it's the same event, a man may respond differently to groping a woman's breasts than the woman will respond to being groped. I just hadn't understood that before.

In other, related, news: Open Source Black Hair Project, a Hofstadterian look at the OSBP.

[practicallyevil]

And that will make it all right, of course, because absolutely no one - male or female - ever takes sexual refusal or favours into account when awarding contracts or promotions, filling job vacancies or anything other exercise of power. I can only hope that practicallyevil was being ironic.

I wasn't aware that it was implied that the publisher was a sexist pig, which he would be even without the pins. If he were to withhold the contract if the author refused to allow his sexual advances with the pin, what makes you think he wouldn't have made the same advances without the pin? The pins are hardly the root cause of the publisher using his position for sexual favors or creating new sexist where there weren't ones already. In fact making people aware of the issue through the pins may lead someone standing up for the author.

Yes. But TheFerrett was advocating just that - until several hundred feminists who weren't falling all over him going "wow, you're so amusing" pointed out to him that he was wrong. While you, meantime, are reading about how he accosts strange young women based on their hall costumes and asks to touch their breasts and thinking how well you would get on with a dude who does that.

While I'm still ambivalent on theFerrett, it's hardly a crime to initially want to try a social experiment on a much larger scale than would be wise, especially if after someone points out that doing so would lead to problems they agree to recant and shrink the scope of the experiment, which theFerrett did do I believe.

At least one con-goer described being handed the button, without any explanation of the background, while at a private party - she assumed it to be a private party thing, not a con-wide thing that theFerrett was describing - and, after putting it on, being asked. And feeling that she couldn't say no, since, after all, she had just agreed to put the badge on. If you are wholly unfamiliar with this kind of dynamic, I put that down to your youth and inexperience.

Source please.

[Majromax]

Of course not: because most fans are not like TheFerrett, and do not like creeps like TheFerrett, and are perfectly willing to stand up and point out that TheFerrett is a disgusting creep.

I don't get it. I read the relevant two livejournal posts, and a "creep" vibe was not there.

Well-intentioned, sure. Misguided? Arguably. Creep, especially a deliberate creep? Nope.

Calling TheFerrett a creep is, to me, a dilution of the language. If he's a creep, then what words are left to describe Dobson, Focus on the Family, Families against Feminisim, and all the other actively, deliberately harmful people and groups?

[Bugmaster]

@Kristy:
I am honored by your praise (no joke), but, calling me sane ? That might be overdoing it a bit, as you can see from a small subset of links I've enjoyed just this week :-) ph33r !

[Jesurgislac]

Source please.

Livejournal.

[Jesurgislac]

Majromax: If he's a creep, then what words are left to describe Dobson, Focus on the Family, Families against Feminisim, and all the other actively, deliberately harmful people and groups?

Bigoted evil slimy psychopaths.

[Bugmaster]

As a sidenote, I cannot yet browse all of the links posted here (I'm at work). I'll do so when I can.

[cjmr]

majormax,

The Ferret-y creepiness doesn't fully come out until you actually read his response comments to the comments people left...

[Froborr]

Goodness, yes, Froborr, thank you for explaining to me that, although it's the same event, a man may respond differently to groping a woman's breasts than the woman will respond to being groped. I just hadn't understood that before.

Right, because differences in opinion are always due to differences in gender, sexuality, or race. I couldn't possibly be referring to the difference in opinion between you and Kristy.

Believe it or not, I actually *agree* with you that TheFerrett is creepy and the OSBP even moreso. However, I do not take the next step of saying "I find it creepy, therefore it's evil and wrong and anybody who doesn't find it creepy is a sexist pig or inexperienced child," like you do. Sometimes people do things that make me uncomfortable while acting entirely within their rights. At those times, I try my best to grin and bare it. Were I at PenguinCon, that's what I'd have done, just as I do with the creepy Free Hug people I used to see all the time back in my con days.

[cjmr's husband]

grin and bare it

No, that's a different button.

[practicallyevil]

Livejournal.

Thank you kindly.

Well this is a difficult issue to weigh here. It seems to me that the woman who provided her with the pin was merely busy considering the "Group of folks part," although it may dangerous to assume so. Did I misread or was the woman who provided the pin the one who asked to touch her breasts? If that were the case I suppose you could reason that the poster in question was provided a practical demonstration of how the pin worked by the person who provided the pin and could have taken the opportunity to ask questions in regards to the pins after the question was posed to her. Although it's not clear from the post how thick the peer pressure was laid on the blogger.

Hypothetical situation 1:

Blogger is asked if she wants a pin, excepts, then the pin hander outer says something to the effect of, "This is how it works, when wearing this pin people ask you if it's okay to touch your breasts, like so. May I touch your breast?" The blogger agrees, the pin hander touches breast, and figures the blogger understands the concept and cuts her loose judgement a might impaired from being at the con all day and it being 3 AM. The blogger is still murky on the finer details, being somewhat tired herself, but the issue doesn't come up again so it's cool.

This is A-okay by my standards, and probably by everyones else too, (although it may be dangerous to assume so). There is a lot of general confusion associated with cons, and especially at 3 AM after a long day of conventioning, A small oversight was made, but it was completely harmless.

Hypothetical situation 2:

Blogger wanders into the wrong booth, gets handed a pin and the person who handed her the pin asks if she could touch her breast. Slightly confused and the pin hander exuding body language that made it clear that she wanted the pin holder to comply the blogger accepted, and was confused as to the transaction for the rest for the rest of the con.

Not cool in my book. Although it doesn't seem from the Livejournal post that a whole lot of peer pressure was heaped on, she may have been caught way off guard. I don't think this was a vile plot by the patriarchy to cop a feel, but it's entirely possible the blogger was pressured into a situation that may have put her at risk. I doubt that happened and I'm going with my usual tact of giving the benefit of the doubt, but I could see how you could object to the pins.
Before she turned back to her group of folks, she asked if she could touch my breasts, and considering that I'd just said I would and had donned the pin, I said yes. She did, complimented me, and that was that.