Contact

You may have already seen this story from the BBC, "Isolated tribe spotted in Brazil":

One of South America's few remaining uncontacted indigenous tribes has been spotted and photographed on the border between Brazil and Peru.

The Brazilian government says it took the images to prove the tribe exists and help protect its land.

The pictures, taken from an airplane, show red-painted tribe members brandishing bows and arrows.

More than half the world's 100 uncontacted tribes live in Brazil or Peru, Survival International says.

Stephen Corry, the director of the group -- which supports tribal people around the world -- said such tribes would "soon be made extinct" if their land was not protected.

The BBC also has more photos in this fascinating slideshow.

Anthropologists and advocates will debate the best way to protect these Brazilians who have never heard of Brazil. Some will want to ensure that they remain independent and unmolested by the wider world. Others will want to make contact to study them (if they can find a way of doing so without exposing them to epidemic disease). The Bush administration is probably already drawing up plans for a military invasion to liberate these people.

But for a look at the deeper meaning of this story, there's only one place to turn: Rapture Ready -- "your prophecy resource for the End Times." The confirmed existence of this tribe -- and of the 100 or so other uncontacted peoples like them -- is Big News for the pseudo-scholars of the "Bible prophecy" racket.

The relevant "prophetic" text comes from Jesus' mini-apocalypse in Matthew 24, verse 14:

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

For premillennial dispensationalist prophecy types like Tim LaHaye and John Hagee, the meaning of that passage is very clear. They believe that "the end" cannot come until after every nation and tribe on the planet has heard the gospel. And they really, really want "the end" to come. They can't wait for this world to be over with already.

This leads to the odd situation of PMDs supporting the preaching of the gospel to every tribe and every nation in order to speed the day in which every tribe and every nation is swept away in the apocalypse. That's an oddly contradictory sort of motivation, but anyone who's looked at PMDs' ardent "support for Israel" will already be familiar with this dynamic. They are fiercely "pro-Israel," because that's where Megiddo is, and therefore where Armageddon will happen, and they can't wait to see Armageddon when all the Jews get wiped out.

Both LaHaye and Hagee are fond of saying that "the end" could come before they reach the end of their sentence/interview/sermon. It could come, they say, at any second now. That claim would seem insupportable given that: A) they believe that "the end" cannot come until every tribe has heard the gospel preached; and B) many tribes, such as the people pictured above, have not yet heard any such preaching.

But don't worry, LaHaye and Hagee believe they have this covered. They believe that after all the real, true Christians are snatched off the earth -- which could happen at any moment -- the RTC gospel will then be preached to every tribe and nation by an army of singing Jewish virgins.

No, really. This is what Tim LaHaye thinks when he looks at a picture like the one above: "Oops, looks like our missionaries missed a spot. Oh well, the 144,000 singing virgins will have to get to them after we're outta here."

I may have mentioned this before, but PMDs are nuts.

Anyway, reality is far more interesting than PMD delusion, and for a fascinating reality-based exploration of the meaning of the story and the photo above, check out this installment of "Talk of the Nation" from National Public Radio in which they discuss all this with National Geographic's Scott Wallace. That interview also introduced me to the astonishing career of Sydney Possuelo, Brazil's champion of its isolated indigenous peoples.

Comments

[Raj]

I'm the first on this thread?

PMD marglars such as LaHaye & Hagee believe that their marglar must be preached to every marglar and marglar on the entire Marglar. Even now, they are planning to send marglars to preach the marglar to these newly-discovered marglars in order to hasten the final marglar that will end the marglar as we know it.

[Ursula L]

In terms of contact, and exposure to epidemic disease, I suspect that even if these people have not had direct contact with Brazilian authorities, they have contact with groups that live around them, which have contact with groups beyond that, who have contact with another set of groups, leading back to the "world." A chain of contact, rather than direct. The "newly discovered" only applies to those who were never in the area to look, not the whole of humanity.

[Toby]

Setting aside the PMDers, I got a bone to pick with those who think it's imperative to evangelize these people right now, that they might achieve salvation. That would mean it's also imperative to find this tribe, spend time with them, and in the meantime expose them to the flu virus, chickenpox, the common cold, etc., possibly decimate their population, and leaving the survivors in a state of communal despair.... (Not to mention the potential for a devastating culture shock alongside the shcok to the immune system.) But of course who could possibly care about those genocidal risks, compared to the possibility of saving the eternal soul of even just one of the members of that tribe?

[Doctor Science]

Ursula:
A chain of contact, rather than direct

Indeed. For instance, this report from the late '90s. Anthropologist Tom Getty was putting together a lecture on the Matsigenka of the Peruvian Amazon, who had been described as "their degree of isolation is about as high as can be obtained today." He found this picture of a Matsigenka couple:

Mateo is holding an ocelot. Aleja is wearing a Bart Simpson T-shirt.

One world: brought to you by The Simpsons.

They are fiercely "pro-Israel," because that's where Megiddo is, and therefore where Armageddon will happen, and they can't wait to see Armageddon when all the Jews get wiped out.

Friends don't let friends do aliyah?

[Dash]

Sorry. Me at 9:04 p.m.

[Matt]

Re: Chain of contact and germs, if you listen to the NPR segment, the guest says it varies depeding on which of the 60ish tribes you are talking about. However, Brazil used to seek out these groups in order to "soften the blow" of contact with civilization (usually coming at them in the form of roadbuilding). Even though contact was made by one person, the populations were decimated by flu, the common cold, measles, and other germs in a very short period of time. So clearly many of them don't have immunity through a chain of contact.

However, the guest did also say these tribes are probably the descendants of people who fled from conflict surrounding contact in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th century. So its not like they're "undiscovered", they've just been hiding for a long time. Depending on the outcome of the presidential election, I may go join them...

[Matt Austern]

I'm pretty sure it's spelled "marklar".

[pepperjackcandy]

I don't believe that haven't had contact with the outside world. That's *clearly* Emma Peel in the background.

I actually do wonder how we know for sure that these truly are uncontacted people and that this isn't, like, a hoax or photos of extras in a movie or something.

[hapax]

That would mean it's also imperative to find this tribe, spend time with them, and in the meantime expose them to the flu virus, chickenpox, the common cold, etc., possibly decimate their population, and leaving the survivors in a state of communal despair.... (Not to mention the potential for a devastating culture shock alongside the shcok to the immune system.)

Because it *has* been a bad week, and I'm grumpy, I find myself musing on the arrogance that allows us to determine for this tribe (assuming that that they are truly as "undiscovered" as reported, about which I am skeptical) that they are better off being spared exposure to viruses than given access to modern medicine, better off in their "cultural purity" than learning about literacy, technology, legal representation, an entire social cultural political world that includes, yes, Bart Simpson.

I don't know. We can hardly offer the choice without, in a sense, making it for them. But in the same way, it strikes me as awfully paternalistic; as depressed as I am about the state of the world, I would scarcely prefer to be living such a lifestyle. Perhaps the current residents of the tribe would choose one way or another -- but would their children, if they knew, thank them (or us) for the choice that we made on their behalf?

[MercuryBlue]

hapax: We can hardly refuse to offer the choice without making it for them, either. Not that that revelation gets us any forwarder.

[Matt]

I've seen a few comments questioning if these people are really uncontacted. I'm curious, why do you doubt this? I'm wondering if we have different ideas of what that means. It seems against their interest (limits logging and ranching development), so I can't see the Brazilian government making it up. I also tend to trust National Geographic, and see no reason to doubt Scott Wallace.

Also, about us determining the "correct" path for these tribes. Many of the tribes have made their feelings on the matter pretty clear. The Arrow People for instance. They got the name because any outsider who ventures onto their territory is shot at with poison tipped arrows. I don't think they want to be bothered.

As for the other groups, I'd be all for letting them choose, but even approaching them to offer (a journey that took Mr. Wallace 5 weeks: 2 upriver on a boat and 3 hacking through dense jungle) puts all of their lives at risk. Its not that I know best, or that their way of life is unsullied. Its that I'm not willing to risk wiping them out.

[Craig]

This is pretty neat on its own merits, of course, but I can't get past how funny the reactions on the ground must have been. I mean, what if that helicopter heralded their Armageddon? Oh, the hilarity.

[1982_Cygni]

I'm not shocked at the ability of some human beings to still be able to survive in a seemingly untouched land, but we must remember that the land probably has been touched by global warming, pollution, and contagious diseases. What I am shocked at however, is the ignorance of the people at Rapture Ready. For example, the Proud Mom of a Marine asked what a shaman was, believed that the common cold could kill the natives, and misspelled "Mormon." All of this, and you get contributors who seem to be unaware of basic rules of capitalization or grammar, links to more prophesy web pages, and disgustingly cute angel smiley faces. Such misuses of pixels and electricity as Rapture Ready make me think this: Aside from medical care, basic literacy, voting rights, and maybe ham radio, perhaps this undiscovered tribe is better off being largely left alone.

[Toby]

hapax,

[are they] better off being spared exposure to viruses than given access to modern medicine, [etc.]

Well, contact will result in deaths. So, I suppose we could tally up the number of lives that could be saved by giving them a tiny bit of access to modern medicine (which is all they would ever get, in the real world), vs. the number of lives which could be lost in epidemics.

But I'm not so sure I want to go along with this actuarial approach to their lives at all. We might rather (for example) worry that we ought not to do great evil out of the hope that some good may come of it.

their "cultural purity"

I think it's weird that you bring up this phrase, in quotes, when I never mentioned it, or anything like it. I was mostly concerned that their population not get decimated.

I did mention something about culture parenthetically, but my worry isn't about the issue of "purity". The issue is rather: whether they are to have a coherent culture at all; whether they are to be able to maintain a coherent way of life, or have their entire way of life disintegrate; whether they are to be left with the opportunity to be happy as they understand it, or whether they are to lose any conception of what it would even mean to be happy.

Because, in general, that's how things play out. No doubt, under ideal circumstances, cultural contact could be made with enough sensitivity and care that these devastating consequences could be avoided. But the reality has always been far from ideal.

If it's not clear what I'm getting at here those who can access this article should give it a read.

...paternalistic ... I would scarcely prefer to be living such a lifestyle.

Projecting your preferences on to them is paternalistic at a more fundamental level. To imagine what it would be like for you (with all your upbringing) to take up their way of life, is precisely to fail to imagine what their way of life is like for them.

[Toby]

For example, the Proud Mom of a Marine asked what a shaman was, believed that the common cold could kill the natives

That Proud Mom of a Marine is the sole voice of reason on that thread. The BBC article agrees with her about the common cold: "Disease is also a risk, as members of tribal groups that have been contacted in the past have died of illnesses that they have no defence against, ranging from chicken pox to the common cold."

[Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little]

That picture flashes me back to The Gods Must Be Crazy.

Raj @ #1, that was smurfing smurftastic of you!

[Sarah]

But of course who could possibly care about those genocidal risks, compared to the possibility of saving the eternal soul of even just one of the members of that tribe?

Just like soldiers witnessing to each other in Iraq means the war is part of God's plan! (I have actually heard this said. I wasn't aware that "there are no atheists in foxholes" was evangelical strategy.)

[Angel]

I honestly didn't know there were uncontacted people left on the earth -- I knew there were people groups who still lived according to their traditional tribal lifestyles, but assumed they were all aware of the rest of the world.

Amazing.

[not_scottbot]

You know, every time I try to describe to Germans the way one major block of Israel's supporters in the U.S. works, it really doesn't work out well. Much like my explanations about creationists, Germans just can't understand how the internal contradictions can be suppressed in the mind of anyone capable of logical thought.

Which just might be the sad answer, though politeness generally dictates that we just let the subject drop, instead of following it to our own logical conclusions.

[plonkee @ the religious atheist]

You know there are a number of languages who's structure, vocab and grammar have only been studies so that the Bible can be translated into that language. In order of course to hasten the end of the world. The actual study of the languages has contributed a great deal to linguistics. Funny.

[Amaryllis]

1982_cygni: and you get contributors who seem to be unaware of basic rules of capitalization or grammar

Mildly OT: That's why I started reading Slacktivist, because I can read it. I got drawn in by the excellence of Fred's prose, then realized that there were some equally talented writers among the regular commenters, and that the accepted style for everyone, professional or avocational writers and the general public alike, involved real sentences, with punctuation even. I don't take punctuation for granted anymore.

I'm still thinking about the real issues raised in this post. So I'll close just mention that I'm rather boggled by "JewishbyChoice" and "Hoping to bake cupcakes for Jesus/Yeshua soon!" Although Saint Brigid wanted to brew him a lake of beer...I wonder which he'd prefer?

[inge]

harpax, I would put viruses in a different category than Bart Simpson, because if those people are dead, the question is moot.

And I have no idea how much modern medicine can do to save people survive infections they haven't dealt with in generations. If it can be easily done, no problem -- but can it? Anyone here with more medical knowlege care to comment on that, please?

[inge]

not_scottbot: IMO it's easy to get "Die Amis haben alle einen an der Waffel" (Those Americans are all a few sandwiches short of a picnic) across. What is hard is to progress to "No, only some of them, really."

[inge]

OT, but as there is no thread on Christian pop culture active right now: Pandagon has an interesting post on Daniel Radosh's " Rapture Ready!: Adventures in the Parallel Universe of Christian Pop Culture" here.

The way I read it, it goes against the accepted "Christian pop culture is made of fail because it puts message before craft" and points out that creative people in the subculture slowly push it towards a, let's say, broader spectrum of quality.

[indifferent children]

> You know, every time I try to describe to Germans the way one major block of Israel's supporters in the U.S. works, it really doesn't work out well.

Try this: "Germans try to kill 6 million Jews"=bad. "Fundamentalists work to kill 6 billion people"=good. Don't offer any justification or argument; there isn't any. You just have to take it on faith.

[Ursula L]

And I have no idea how much modern medicine can do to save people survive infections they haven't dealt with in generations. If it can be easily done, no problem -- but can it? Anyone here with more medical knowlege care to comment on that, please?

Not specific medical knowledge, but speculating as a layperson:

The problem, I think, is partially that they would be dealing with exposure to multipe diseases simultaniously. This would make it medically far more complicated than a single disease.

You also have different types of diseases - bacteria, viruses, fungi, etc. Each of which can be treated, but each treatment has its side effects, and the combination of trying to treat these simultaniously could be siginificant.

The medical interventions needed to treat this type of multiple infection epidemic would be significant. It would probably require some type of hospitalization, and isolation. The patients involved would not know what was going on, or how to cooperate, since they have not been exposed to the culture of modern medicine. There would probably be significant mental and physical stress just from dealing with the treatments, which would complicate things and reduce the chances of success.

The concept of "informed consent" would be impossible - no way to catch otherwise capable of consent adults up to the understanding needed to give informed consent in the time available for successful treatment. (The same as the question of consent to exposure/integration into outside culture, that the choice can not be offered, or denied, without the decision being at least partially made for them.)

Some type of mass innoculation/vaccine program would probably be necessary, to try to prevent problems in the least intrusive way. But such a program would have to start almost immediately upon contact, before informed consent was possible, for it to be successful.

***

My earlier point about "chain of contact" was not so much about the exposure to disease, although it may have some effect, as it was about the arrogence of considering these people "undiscovered" and "uncontacted" just because they have not had direct contact with us.

[Toby]

There is no cure for the common cold. And even if there were, who would bother to give it to them? It is much easier to provide access to epidemics than it is to provide access to modern medicine.

[Froborr]

While you raise some interesting concerns, hapax, I would say that the danger of epidemic creates a moral imperative not to contact them.

If that danger didn't exist, then it would be a little more complicated. I would say that, unless they were immediate danger or were suffering (and, as there is no correlation between wealth or technological advancement and happiness*, merely not having Wal-Marts and digital watches is *not* sufficient to consider them to be suffering), there is no imperative *to* contact them, but there's also no imperative not to contact them. In such cases, I tend to err on the side of leaving people be.

*Rather, there is a strong correlation between wealth and happiness below the poverty line (here defined as having adequate food, water, and shelter). Above that line, though, it's a total crapshoot.

[SchrodingersDuck]

This reminds of a deeply crass "tourism" company which offers tourists the chance to visit a previously undiscovered tribe for "first contact". It's unethical on about a dozen levels - there's the risk of disease (both ways), destroying a unique culture, putting untrained amateurs in delicate diplomatic situations which, if they go wrong, are just a well aimed arrow to the chest away from tragedy.

A recent BBC documentary studied this company, and came to the conclusion that the encounters may have been faked, but that it was the tribespeople hoaxing the tourism company - the company itself believed these first encounters were genuine. You can see the documentary on Youtube - it has a lot of interesting ethical points about first contact.

[DummyPlug]

My gut reaction is similar to hapax's.

As far as I'm concern, to contact or not to contact are both as "paternalistic" since we're choosing for them one way or the other.

It be nice if we could find a way to have them choose without destroying them in the process but I'm not quite sure how that could be done.

That said, on the desease front, this isn't 1491 anymore: don't we know how to sterilize things? Don't we have ways to isolate people from the environment?

Then again, I'm not sure dropping a bunch of scientist in full haz-mat suit from a chopper is the best way to go either...

Leaving them alone is definitly the easiest answer (and the better short term one) but I'm just not sure it's the best one long term.

[indifferent children]

> This reminds of a deeply crass "tourism" company which offers tourists the chance to visit a previously undiscovered tribe for "first contact".

How can we force these Ferenghi to follow the Prime Directive?

that's where Megiddo is

I'd ask why I read this as MegaDildo, but we all know the answer: I'm the Slut of Slacktivist.

========

the accepted style for everyone, professional or avocational writers and the general public alike, involved real sentences, with punctuation even

YOUR ANN ELITIST! AND SO SAY, ALL my freinds!!!1@ puntuation is for SIISIES!

========

Since giving them smallpox-infested blankets seems out of the question (joles in bad taste are my specialty!), and it seems difficult if not imppossible to let them chose without forcing the choice on them, I'd say "Leave 'em be." They've been doing fine without our help for hundreds of years, we should let them live that way for as long as possible.

[jamoche]

merely not having Wal-Marts and digital watches is *not* sufficient to consider them to be suffering

"...so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea."

That said, on the desease front, this isn't 1491 anymore: don't we know how to sterilize things?

Apparently not. Tried buying a tomato lately?

(Yes, different kinds of contamination, but still. Why *can't* we manage to keep our food uncontaminated? I don't remember so many food scares in the 80s or 90s - are we just better at communications so we can determine that there is a connection when people get sick, or are we getting worse at keeping our food edible?)

[Jeff]

That was me at 02:31 PM. [Insert obligatory curse at Typepad here]

[Lauren]

Why *can't* we manage to keep our food uncontaminated? I don't remember so many food scares in the 80s or 90s - are we just better at communications so we can determine that there is a connection when people get sick, or are we getting worse at keeping our food edible?

It's the first one. Food hasn't gotten any less safe, it's just that the hazards are communicated more clearly.

As far as the uncontacted Brazilian tribes go, who says they aren't making their own choice about contact? By all accounts, they know the outside world exists, since they ran away from it on purpose. If they wanted to make contact, they have the ability.

[DummyPlug]

By all accounts, they know the outside world exists, since they ran away from it on purpose.

You seem well versed on the motivation of these uncontacted tribes... which I find suprising since they're, you know, uncontacted.

If they wanted to make contact, they have the ability.

Do they?

Putting aside that any statement on the abilities of an uncontacted tribe is speculation at best, my understanding is that getting to those tribes is a 7 day ordeal for prepared teams who know where they're going.

So how are they suppose to contact us when they might not even know we exist?

[Natros]

I'd like to state for the record that not all missionaries are trying to bring about The Rapture/Armageddon/what have you. In my experience, most evangelical missionaries are doing what they do because they actually want to help people and cultures. Community development, access to education, advocacy go hand in hand with bringing the good news in most modern missionary work. Even those who focus primarily on "saving souls" tend to have a much more robust view than their PMD brethren of social justice, care for the poor, and generally ensuring that the gospel is actually "Good News" to those who hear it.

My guess is that if first contact is made with this culture, it's unlikely to be by those of the "Rapture Ready" ilk--I think most of them are just trying to wait out the coming judgment day.

[pepperjackcandy]

Some type of mass innoculation/vaccine program would probably be necessary, to try to prevent problems in the least intrusive way. But such a program would have to start almost immediately upon contact, before informed consent was possible, for it to be successful.

That's what I was thinking, only you put it better than I could've.

[cjmr]

I don't remember so many food scares in the 80s or 90s - are we just better at communications so we can determine that there is a connection when people get sick, or are we getting worse at keeping our food edible?

I think it's a little of both. Because we're shipping our food farther, we have to broadcast the warnings farther. And as farms get bigger, each farm is producing a greater percentage of an area's food. If one farm has contaminated packing equipment, instead of 20 acres of tomatoes being infected by it, it's 200 or 2000.

[ohiolibrarian]

It's naive to think that these people don't know at least a little bit about the wider world. It would be pretty unlikely for people, even in Brazilian rain forests, to have no contact with their neighbors. And their neighbors, or their neighbors' neighbors would have contact with the rest of Brazil. How they interpret what they know is another matter.

Trade goods and rumors have always traveled farther and faster than people. In pre-Columbian North America, trade goods and stories made it thousands of miles from their point of origin. I don't see any reason why these people would be any less aware. Certainly, the folks getting their picture taken from a helicopter will have a few stories to tell!

[Ursula L]

As far as the uncontacted Brazilian tribes go, who says they aren't making their own choice about contact? By all accounts, they know the outside world exists, since they ran away from it on purpose. If they wanted to make contact, they have the ability.

Do they know the world exits, as it exists? If, as some have speculated, they are the descendants of people who fled and hid a few centuries ago, the "western world" they are hiding from is the world of the Spanish conquistadors, not our world. The decision to run and hide, in this hypothetical, is not even the decision of the people who are there now, it was the decision of their distant ancestors. I know I would not want to be bound by the decisions of my anscestors. Some of them had spectacularly bad judgement, and none of them knew the circumstances that my life is in now.

And do they know enough of our world to make an informed choice? Would the choice of the group as decided by leaders be the same as the choice of parents watching their child die in the agony of appendicitis? Do either the leaders or the parents know that not dying is an option for the child? What about the child, young enough to know nothing but that she wants the pain to stop?

Is it possible to prevent contact forever? I don't think so. And does holding back official contact make it more likely that unofficial contact, without any supervision or regulation, is what will happen, without any attempts to take the precautions that are possible? I'd rather see trained anthropologists making the first contact, rather than, say, a logging company only interested in clearing the land, or a group of PMD RTCs looking to check this group off of the "preached to" list.

[Toby]

Ursula L: And do they know enough of our world to make an informed choice?

No.

Would the choice of the group as decided by leaders be the same as the choice of parents watching their child die in the agony of appendicitis?

Under what realistic scenario are these people going to get access to appendectomies??

Setting aside that basic issue of realism: Well, who knows. Some might well be inclined to make a deal with the devil. But let's be clear: we're talking about a deal with the devil. By "devil" I mean: an evil which transcends the understanding of the one who encounters it. I doubt they could comprehend the damage that contact with the modern world would do to them. To them, we might as well be the devil.

Is it possible to prevent contact forever? I don't think so.

Who knows about "forever"? But for the time being, preventing contact is considerably more feasible than making non-destructive contact.

* * *

Have people listened to that NPR story Slacktivist linked to? It's quite good. Some notable quotes:

After contact, tribes "inevitably succumb to epidemic disease" (including the common cold); "within weeks of first contact their populations can be decimated by these diseases"; their "once vibrant warriors reduced to dislocated caricatures of a drunken, idle, broken beggar."

This is what actually happens. Based on these observations, Sydney Possuelo decided that the rest of us ought to leave these people alone. It seems to me that his experience clearly trumps all of the comments here in which people have speculated about how they might benefit from contact.

[Reynard]

Posted by Amaryllis: Although Saint Brigid wanted to brew him a lake of beer...I wonder which he'd prefer?

Jesus is a big boy, let him turn his own water into wine...

[DummyPlug]

Have people listened to that NPR story Slacktivist linked to?
Yes, yes I did.

Here's another notable quote from that show. A Campaign Coordinator for Survival International said (starting around 19:33):
"In Brazil, by contrast, Indians cannot own any land at all and legally speaking they are actually treated as children! They're deemed not be able to, hum, they don't have the kind of legal status of adults and so because they are not allowed to own any land and the Indian Territories are merely set aside by the government they are much more vulnerable to the borders of these territories being change after lobbying."

So, yeah, to repeat hapax's comment: "...it strikes me as awfully paternalistic..."

That coordinator still agrees with Sydney Possuelo that those tribes should be left alone (on the grounds of the disease thing) and for the foreseeable future (the next 5-10 years) I agree with them too. After all, they're experts and I'm not and their reasons for not intervening right now (disease) make sense to me.

What I do disagree with is that contact should be postponed as long as possible, potentially forever.

My opinion is that we should be working on ways to make contact in a way that will not decimate their tribe so they (not me, not you, not Sidney Possuelo) can make an informed decision.

The fact that neither you or me can think of a way this can be done at the present time doesn't mean it shouldn't be the goal to strive for on the long term (50-100 years).

Keeping them as perpetual children existing on the goodwill of the Brazilian government just doesn't sound right to me.

[Foelhe]

"Perpetual children" is an... interesting way to describe a group very capable of handling themselves, and kind of puts the cries of paternalism in a new context. We could also debate whether it's fair to say that these people - who have lived in their own territory for hundreds of years - should be said to be dependent on a government that is less than fifty years old. That may not be something the Brazilian government is going to take into account, but it should be worthy of discussion, at least.

Even if these people don't know what's beyond the horizon, the fact that they haven't bothered to find out makes me think we have our answer. And we've had people photographing them from helicopters, which isn't exactly subtle. I'd have to imagine they know something is out there, and they've still made no apparent effort to contact us. Honest question, how many times are we planning to prod these folks before we assume the answer is, "We're good over here, thanks"?

[Gary]

...which is why I fail to understand why they are all anti-one world government, currency, etc. They seem to be so excited to see the end of the world on the one hand, but at the same time get all in a tizzy about the Euro. Make up your damn mind. If you want it to happen soon, why not help things along? If the rapture you so desperately seek can only happen after a period of world peace, and you yourself are shielded by your magic prayer, then HELP THE WORLD ACHIEVE PEACE. It's a win for everybody.

[Jarred]

Gary: Because that would mean they were supporting and enabling the Anti-Christ's rise to power. Yeah, they want to see it all happen so they can get whisked away and enjoy the "end-game" from the comfort of heaven. But that means they still have to be on the right side. And I imagine they feel supporting the Anti-Christ in any wense would put them on the "wrong side."

So they find themselves in the tricky position of secretly hoping for it all to happen while still having to oppose it in order to maintain their reservations on the Rapture Express.

[Hawker Hurricane]

Because working toward a goal (world peace, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, caring for the childrens) isn't an act of FAITH, it would be WORKS, and they get to heaven by faith alone. So they show thier faith by doing nothing that might help...

[MercuryBlue]

One would think that the way to express one's faith that the statements of a certain other person are true would be to listen to all that person's statements and act on the ones requiring acting on. For instance, "give all you have to the poor".