It knots you

Reporter Jonathan Starkey finds a fresh angle for the high gas prices story: "Even Amish fret about high fuel costs."

It may be hard to imagine that the Amish, known best for their horse-drawn buggies, are as susceptible to the sting of rising oil prices as people who rely on gas for everyday transportation.

But for those who milk cows, build cabinets or saw timber for a living, the pinch is real. Pressure from fuel prices even reaches into Amish homes, where they use gas to power washing machines and freezers.

Amish people are banned from driving cars and trucks because leaders worry that faster transportation could "pull the community apart," but the prohibition does not extend to fuel-powered motors and engines like those used to run power tools and washing machines, said Donald B. Kraybill, an Amish scholar at Elizabethtown College in Elizabethtown, Pa.

"I don't know that there ever was a categorical taboo on the engine," Kraybill said. "They used steam engines in the late 19th century."

So despite their old-fashioned separatist image, the Amish are squeezed by high fuel prices just like everybody else.

... "We used to get it for half the price," [Harvey] Yoder said of the gas. "It knots you."

I hadn't heard that expression before, but it's wonderfully apt. The doubling of fuel prices really does "knot you."

Donald B. Kraybill, quoted above, heads the Young Center for Anabaptist and Pietist Studies at Elizabethtown and has become the go-to guy for reporters writing about the Amish. Most of his many books deal with the Amish, the Hutterites and the other Old Order Anabaptists.

But I'm most grateful to Kraybill for his one book that wasn't about all that: The Upside-Down Kingdom. That book is a wonderful, humbling, challenging, leper-hugging, pacifist brick through a window. It's gently subversive and perhaps even subversively gentle. It knots you:

Our normal tendency is to scramble up ladders as fast as possible. The disciple of Jesus works to serve the powerless at the bottom. This may be in the form of personal ministry or through changing the structure of the ladder itself. The Christian is more concerned about the plight of those at the bottom than about advancing his own position on the ladder.

That sort of thing. The main problem with the book is that for all of his talk about how "the Christian" behaves, Kraybill doesn't offer many real-world examples of actual Christians actually behaving this way. But then I don't really think that's his fault.

Incidentally, I've been to Elizabethtown College once or twice, many years ago. My old roommate's band played there and we learned that E-town is where students from Messiah College, 30 miles away, sneak off to dance. (I hope no administrators from Messiah are reading this.) I suppose that prohibition against dancing offers another option, an alternative, upright vision to compete with Kraybill's upside-down one. But if you're not allowed to dance, then you're probably not allowed to join that revolution.

Comments

[J]

First off: WOOO! First post! First time ever!

Incidentally, I've been to Elizabethtown College once or twice, many years ago. My old roommate's band played there and we learned that E-town is where students from Messiah College, 30 miles away, sneak off to dance. (I hope no administrators from Messiah are reading this.) I suppose that prohibition against dancing offers another option, an alternative, upright vision to compete with Kraybill's upside-down one. But if you're not allowed to dance, then you're probably not allowed to join that revolution.

I don't get this. Having gone to the greatest university in the world, I don't have even a fraction of a smidge of a sliver of understanding for how adult human beings can stand to be voluntarily, autocratically governed like this. This is America, in the year 2008. We have pocket-sized phones, vaccines for many major infectious diseases, a space station under construction and three active rovers on Mars. But what the fuck? Why do people PAY MONEY to be forbidden to DANCE? No friends of mine, indeed.

[Lee Ratner]

I've never understood the complete prohibition on dancing in certain types of Christianity. Fundanmentalist Jews and Muslims can dance, it has to be with members of the same gender but it is not an outright ban. Certain fundamentalist Christians do not even permit dancing alone (as in moving to music) or with people of the same gender. It is a very odd ban. The only reason I can think of is that the Christians who ban dancing associate dancing with sex so much that they have to ban it all. Dancing alone is a sin because masturbation is a sin. Same sex dancing is a sing because homosexuality is a sin. Mixed dancing is a sin because well sex in general is a sin. It must be a very joyless life they live.

[JayH]

J: Why do people PAY MONEY to be forbidden to DANCE?

We have a local Christian U that had a rule like that until recently. (There are anti-drinking rules students and employees still have to assent to, as well, whether those students and employees are 21+ or not.) So, from experience, I see three common reasons pop up:

(1) The student/employee agrees with the rule, believing dancing (or drinking) to be morally unsafe. A respectable opinion - unless he or she starts trying to back it up with Biblical text, at which point, good luck, friend.
(2) The student's tuition is being paid for by someone else, so the choice is somewhat out of his or her hands.
(3) The student/employee signs the agreement with full or partial intention to secretly violate it.

[J]

The student/employee agrees with the rule, believing dancing (or drinking) to be morally unsafe. A respectable opinion - unless he or she starts trying to back it up with Biblical text, at which point, good luck, friend.

Liberal versus conservative religion always seems to me like an argument between two people, one of whom believes we should walk around with one eye firmly shut, the other of whom believes we should walk around with BOTH eyes firmly shut, if not gouged out altogether.

Meanwhile, I'm the guy at the back of the lecture hall, hand waving in the air, "Um, I have an suggestion..."

[JMiller]

J: Why do people PAY MONEY to be forbidden to DANCE?

Because they have no intention of dancing to such an end that they want to only be around other people who are willing to pay money to not dance.

This is all about using money to achieve socioeconomic separateness -- in a broad stroke, rich people spend pay a premium to live next to other rich people so that they don't have to live next to poor people instead of actually *saving their money* by living someplace less trendy. In this case however, the very religious folks demonstrate how very religious they are by spending their money in such a way that they can safely avoid risking fraternization with tax collectors and sinners -- because, you know, that would be unGodly and stuff.

Oops, forgot the "sarcasm" tags for everything from "safely" through "stuff"... my bad...

[Raj]

Lee Ratner: Certain fundamentalist Christians do not even permit dancing alone (as in moving to music) ...

Innocently moving to music might lead to something as evil as this.

[J]

"Stephen watched them as they went mournfully abound the market, these men whose mouths were closed lest they spoke some forbidden word, whose eyes were perpetually averted from forbidden sights, whose hands refrained at every moment from some forbidden act. It seemed to Stephen that they did little more than half-exist. They might as well have been dreams or ghosts."

--Johnathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, p. 371

[Hawker Hurricane]

"Baptists don't have sex standing up, for fear it might lead to dancing." H. L. Mencken (attrib)

[Mabus]

Lee Ratner: I've never understood the complete prohibition on dancing in certain types of Christianity. Fundanmentalist Jews and Muslims can dance, it has to be with members of the same gender but it is not an outright ban. Certain fundamentalist Christians do not even permit dancing alone (as in moving to music) or with people of the same gender. It is a very odd ban. The only reason I can think of is that the Christians who ban dancing associate dancing with sex so much that they have to ban it all.

It's actually rather funny--it seems to have been a misunderstanding.

Now, I can't recall at the moment what the Puritans (for instance) thought on the subject. But all the early fundamentalist-proper discussions of the subject I've read clearly specify "mixed dancing"--mixed dancing was considered immoral because of the danger of sexual temptation. Same-sex dancing, not surprisingly, was not a consideration.

However, once the nature of the prohibition was well-established, it looks as though simply saying "dancing" was sufficient shorthand for a generation or two. The next generation, having lost the context, began applying the prohibition to all types of dancing.

[Mabus]

Lee Ratner: I've never understood the complete prohibition on dancing in certain types of Christianity. Fundanmentalist Jews and Muslims can dance, it has to be with members of the same gender but it is not an outright ban. Certain fundamentalist Christians do not even permit dancing alone (as in moving to music) or with people of the same gender. It is a very odd ban. The only reason I can think of is that the Christians who ban dancing associate dancing with sex so much that they have to ban it all.

It's actually rather funny--it seems to have been a misunderstanding.

Now, I can't recall at the moment what the Puritans (for instance) thought on the subject. But all the early fundamentalist-proper discussions of the subject I've read clearly specify "mixed dancing"--mixed dancing was considered immoral because of the danger of sexual temptation. Same-sex dancing, not surprisingly, was not a consideration.

However, once the nature of the prohibition was well-established, it looks as though simply saying "dancing" was sufficient shorthand for a generation or two. The next generation, having lost the context, began applying the prohibition to all types of dancing.

[Amaryllis]

"it knots you"

A wonderfully expressive phrase. That's exactly how I feel when I fill up the gas tank or open the BG&E bill.

[greygelgoog]

Messiah College has a prohibition against dancing? In the several years I spent there I honestly never heard that. Before you get pissy about that, though, at least Messiah permits interracial dating and boys and girls to walk on the same sidewalk.

[corrie]

Messiah hasn't banned dancing in years. I don't know exactly when the ban ended, but it was sometime before my freshman year (1995) anyway.

[Jeff]

vaccines for many major infectious diseases

with MERCURY! (Sorry, I'll go hide now.)

===========================

J: Why do people PAY MONEY to be forbidden to DANCE?

Because they have no intention of dancing

I think that's enough. If Messiah has a good program in a major I'm interested in, and I don't care to dance (for whatever reason), I'd go there. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with anyone else.

(OK, now I'll go hide)

[Dash]

Just checked the Messiah website. (We've got a Messiah grad in the extended family, and there was a goodly amount of alcohol and dancing at the wedding, which was attended by many Messiah folks. No one seemed shocked. Except perhaps the bride's father when he got the bill.) Messiah students may go to E-town to dance because Messiah itself hosts only one or two dances a year. (Messiah's Spring 08 dance was in April. You missed it.) The school also has several dance clubs (swing, Israeli, line), as well as some good opportunities to practice "upside-down Christianity": a campus Habitat for Humanity chapter and a campus Amnesty International Coordinator, among other things. I have to admit, after perusing the website, I came away pretty impressed with the place!

I do know that Messiah, some years back, managed to shock a local Bible Conference when their musical group was asked to play a special concert. Musical group consisting of young college students. Bible conference group consisting of fairly staid non-students who may have remembered Messiah as a bit more conservative than it was. I wasn't there, but I understand the music came across to the audience as a bit, oh, heavy on the drums. Intergenerational miscommunication. Dancing in the aisles failed to happen.

[Lauren]

Same-sex dancing, not surprisingly, was not a consideration.

Please clarify. Same-sex dancing wasn't considered (because it was so obviously wrong (too Eastern?)), or a prohibition on same-sex dancing wasn't considered (because it obviously didn't present a similar problem)?

[Tonio]

Although my community has many Amish and Old Order Mennonites (and I often buy produce from them), there is still much misinformation among their "English" neighbors about their religious practices, and it would be rude for us to even ask. I once imagined a rebellious Amish teen putting up a poster of Reddy Kilowatt in his room to shock his parents.

[bam]

Jeff, if that was a anti-vaccination commercial, you need to go and read a few real medical sites. Themresal (may be spelled wrong) is a compound that contains a small amount of mercury that they used to put in some vaccines to extend shelf life.. They no longer do. Besides, there is NO evidence whatsoever that the compound had any kind of effect on kids when it was present. Please do not fall for the lies. There are a number of excellent web sites that tell the truth. Unsurprisingly (considering that public health is their job), the CDC has good info and you can start at http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/

I once saw a family graveyard in South Carolina that has a row of stones showing that in the mid 1880s 13 children of the same family died within two weeks of each other. Ages 24 to 2 months. All gone in 2 weeks.

That sort of thing happened every 10-20 years before they found out how to stop it. It was diphtheria. That's the D in the DPT. The others are tetanus, and whooping cough. And if you think whooping cough isn't a big deal, tell that to my friend whose young son spent almost 3 months in the hospital fighting to breathe when he got whooping cough at 3 weeks.

Sorry everyone, I won't offend again, but the child abusers who don't get their kids vaccinated make me MAD.

And if anyone is offended by me calling them child abusers, tough. I will not, however, respond to any counter arguments, as this is not a vaccination thread. Again, I apologize.

[Mabus]

Lauren: Please clarify. Same-sex dancing wasn't considered (because it was so obviously wrong (too Eastern?)), or a prohibition on same-sex dancing wasn't considered (because it obviously didn't present a similar problem)?

The latter, as far as I can tell. During the time fundamentalists were rushing to condemn dancing, homosexual relationships don't appear to have been a visible issue--at least, not to the fundamentalists themselves. A relationship between two members of the same sex was presumed to be automatically, intrinsically nonsexual--exactly the same as if two members of a sentient asexual species were under conssideration.

That says nothing, mind, about what was or wasn't going on in other segments of society--just that the people we're discussing weren't aware of it.

[Reynard]

So despite their old-fashioned separatist image, the Amish are squeezed by high fuel prices just like everybody else.

... "We used to get it for half the price," [Harvey] Yoder said of the gas. "It knots you."

Psssh!!! Those uppity Amish need to quit whining and remember that it's all in their heads... <⁄sarcasm>

[Randy Owens]

I just got off the train after a three-day trip. There was a group on the train with me that I assumed to be Mennonite or some other Anabaptist, given their mode of dress. (I thought of asking, but never did.) I even saw a few more at the train station in Chicago while waiting for my connection. I was guessing it was probably due to a prohibition on flying, but the train being permitted.

I was mildly surprised, though, to see them playing a dice game in the lounge car. I don't know just what it was, though, other than unexpected.

[Steve]

Okay, hate to name drop (well, actually, no I don't) but I stake my claim to win the internets on this thread:

1. I know Don Kraybill somewhat. Really good guy, and yeah, the go-to guy for interpreting the Amish community.

2. His most recent book, Amish Grace (about the Amish school shootings), was co-authored by one of my bosses...Dave Weaver-Zercher.

3. Two weeks ago I sat at a family gathering and my mom's cousin (age 70ish) was sharing about his job: van driver for the Amish. Yup, they can't drive, but there are whole van services focused on driving them places. So I'm sure the gas price increase hits them largerly here. There are a lot of interesting stories of legalism in the Amish community, and how they subvert the rules. I'm dissing them as a whole. Its just, well, funny at times. My relative said the biggest reason for the van rentals was to visit relatives. Say a couple has eight kids. As they marry they move to where they can buy a farm...so the family ends up being spread out. Too far to conveniently take a horse and buggy...so they rent vans to go visiting.

4. My parents met at Messiah College, and my sister went there. They lifted the ban on dancing about 10-15 years ago...but were lax on enforcement for some time before that.

Why do people PAY MONEY to be forbidden to DANCE?

As far as this question: its just the wrong question. I know the rule seems odd in this day and age. But I grew up in the denomination (Brethren in Christ) that founded Messiah College...it has anabaptist roots as do the Mennonites and Amish. When my mom was young, many in the denomination still dressed plain. They were very concerned about becoming too worldly. (While I take Jesus' call to be separate from the world to involve living values like those in the quote Fred lists from Kraybill's Upside Down Kingdom, many took it literally "to remain separate from the world".) So growing up, my mom's church had rules against dancing, drinking, smoking, voting, playing cards (yes, no crazy eights), and certain types of dress.

My uncle was kicked out of church for wearing a necktie. And my mom was chatised for teaching a song to children that used a military metaphor since we're a historic peace church. My parent's generation was the first to vote. The Brethren in Christ (as well as Mennonites and many other "Brethren" denominations) have come a long way and is much more progressive...and those rules gradually relaxed as people got more worldly wise and realized they didn't make sense. So people didn't pay to not dance...it was just one of the many rules...and eventually it fell by the wayside.

Phrasing it as you did is a bit disingenuous. I'm sure any member organization has rules, and so anyone with a different view point could say "why would they pay to not be able to do such and such."

[Mabus]

Steve: While I take Jesus' call to be separate from the world to involve living values like those in the quote Fred lists from Kraybill's Upside Down Kingdom,

Sometimes I wish I understood this point of view better. Both your perspective and that of your parents' church seem designed to keep you away from the good and enjoyable things of life--but at least the latter involved trivial things. If you're not allowed to dance or play cards, that can be unpleasant but it's no great loss. The things Kraybill suggests avoiding are precisely the things that can make the world better for large numbers of people. Shouldn't they be distributed to as many people as possible short of diluting them so widely they're no use?

Why not both climb the ladder and help others up it with you?

[Mabus]

Steve: While I take Jesus' call to be separate from the world to involve living values like those in the quote Fred lists from Kraybill's Upside Down Kingdom,

Sometimes I wish I understood this point of view better. Both your perspective and that of your parents' church seem designed to keep you away from the good and enjoyable things of life--but at least the latter involved trivial things. If you're not allowed to dance or play cards, that can be unpleasant but it's no great loss. The things Kraybill suggests avoiding are precisely the things that can make the world better for large numbers of people. Shouldn't they be distributed to as many people as possible short of diluting them so widely they're no use?

Why not both climb the ladder and help others up it with you?

[Mabus]

I think there's actually something wrong with my mouse, btw--it's been double-clicking a lot.

[alfgifu]

Why not both climb the ladder and help others up it with you?

Because that means accepting the existance of the ladder, and as long as human communities are ladder-shaped there will be people stuck on the bottom rung.

I know the counter-argument as well: It might not be possible, humanly speaking, to avoid the ladder at all, and if everyone moves up then the bottom rung does creep away from the ground.

Possibly the better course is somewhere in between, where we don't jump off the ladder but instead try to extend it sideways so that everyone can fit on the middle rung? Then we can try to raise that rung as far as possible, leaving the majority better off.

[Mabus]

alfgifu: Thanks for the thoughtful comments.

These days, with oil getting scarce so quickly, I've become increasingly doubtful that we can do any better for much longer. The better people live and the more of them there are, the more quickly things are going to collapse. And after that, I'm increasingly unsure there's any way of ever fixing the world up again.

[RickRS]

Beliefs are a funny thing:

Since the general belief is Baptist prohibit dance and I was a Baptist for a while, I used to avoid dancing by said I couldn't, I'm Baptist. Truth be told, I was painful shy growing up.

It work for the most part except when used around other Baptist.

Them: "But we're Baptist and we can dance."
Me: "Not that Baptist,the other Baptist!"

Finally at age 53 I'm taking social dance lessons. Hey, it's fun!

[not_scottbot]

I would again like to thank our gracious host for not having entered the Web 2.0 world.

And especially for not having given in to the temptation to 'unpublish' anything in all the years I have been reading and posting over a couple of different versions of this site.

But a certain mea culpa - some of the most thoughtful commenting about unpublishing and dsmvwllng (and yes, you can ignore all my comments in that thoughtful category if you wish) can be found at http://shetterly.wordpress.com/2008/07/10/moderators-who-mock-and-a-proposal/

And since hypocrisy is just part of being human, I would like to apologize for my attempt to use mockery to modify someone's posting behavior. Not merely because it failed - which it obviously did - but because mockery is a tool for those attempting to end discussion from a position of (assumed) power, not continue it.

[not_scottbot]

Oh, a final point - sometimes, what happens isn't discussion, in which case, banning/removal is completely appropriate.

A community can not be moderated into existence through deleting opposing views - that merely creates an echo chamber, which seems to be the general result of Web 2.0 practices.

[Don]

J is a good demonstration of the principal that you can always tell someone from Cornell, but you can't tell them much.

Having lived in close proximity to an Amish fellowship (their bishop was the carpenter who re-framed our kitchen after we gutted it and we buy vegetables from him at the farmer's market), I'm continually amazed at the number of misconceptions about Amish people. First they are people, not saints. Second they may eschew certain technologies for themselves but they would have a difficult time maintaining their way of life without taking advantage of a lot of that technology. They rely on modern transportation to move any distance greater than 10 or 15 miles. Those who sell class A milk need to have a refrigeration system to cool their milk. I know a few who have web sites that they use to market their products.

If anyone wants to understand a little bit about the choice that the children make to join the church, I recommend viewing The Devil's Playground (you can get it from Netflix).

[J]

J is a good demonstration of the principal that you can always tell someone from Cornell, but you can't tell them much.

Hey! I will not brook back-sass about Cornell: John Cleese is our visiting scholar and you can take wine-tasting for credit!

[Leigh]

Bam said...
"Sorry everyone, I won't offend again, but the child abusers who don't get their kids vaccinated make me MAD."

I got my daughter all the wonderful vaccines, then during the winter she caught a vaccine resistant strain of Whooping Cough. At 3 years old it was terrible, and it was misdiagnosed initially by her DR because she had the vaccine. He listened to the distinctive cough and said it was croup.
Just because the kid gets sick doesn't mean that they weren't vaccinated. And considering how ill she got when I got her the shots, and the fact that she ended up getting sick anyway, I would consider not getting them if I had to do it again.

[Psilan]

I too - speaking as an E-town alum whose campus job was student assistant at the Young Center - know Dr. Kraybill. He's a good family friend and is a really nice guy, though I confess to never having read his books.

So, yeah, imagine my surprise when both names got dropped in today's Slacktivist post. I'm half tempted to call him up and refer him here.

I don't think that saying E-town is where the Messiah kids go to dance to accurate, not anymore at least. The two schools have a friendly rivalry going, which has at times turned not-so-friendly, but on the whole I never noticed much of a difference between the student populations of the two schools. They pretty much behave the same, at least in my experience, so if there are more rules at Messiah governing behavior, they're not followed once the students are off campus. (And from what I know of the current students there, not followed while they're on campus either).

(Oh, and, yeah, hi everyone. Long time reader, exceptionally rare poster checking in. :)

[J]

The better people live and the more of them there are, the more quickly things are going to collapse...

Ah, the Mother Teresan/Thomas Malthusian view. So which change should we make first, Mabus: Reduce the number of people or worsen the way that they live?

Those who sell class A milk need to have a refrigeration system to cool their milk.

Given that there are only ever Grade A eggs at the store, doesn't that imply that there are 25 other grades of eggs . . . missing, somewhere out there.

Finally, regarding the upside-down kingdom:

It doesn't quite work, even when you sincerely try, though. There's a hippie Christian cult in town who run a juice bar and cheerfully distribute a weird, nonsensical newspaper(these people; their juice bar). The men have beards and wear cargo pants, the women have pigtail braids and wear flower-print dresses. They live communally and espouse a lot of "crazy" beliefs about peace and brotherhood...

...and they're being investigated for child labor and abuse. It's so very predictable that yawning and rolling your eyes itself seems like a cliche.

[cjmr]

If anybody really, really, really, wants to debate vaccines some more they might take themselves to the bottom of the LB: Chekov's GIRAT thread where the discussion last left off...

[Cowboy Diva]

cjmr,
thanks for the link.
*shakes fist at Jeff for mentioning the closest planet to the sun*

[Dorothy]

They live communally and espouse a lot of "crazy" beliefs about peace and brotherhood...

J, I checked out their web site and was rather pleasantly surprised at the quality of their "what about the heathen" video, but on further digging realized that they would classify me as one of the "Unjust and Filthy, judged worthy of a second and eternal death in what the Bible calls the Lake of Fire." Yikes! So much for peace and brotherhood.

[Richard Hershberger]

"And considering how ill she got when I got her the shots, and the fact that she ended up getting sick anyway, I would consider not getting them if I had to do it again."

This does not follow. Remember the Voltaire line about the perfect being the enemy of the good. Yes, there are reactions to vaccines, and yes, vaccines are not infallible. No, this doesn't mean it makes sense to skip them. Even in their fallibility the payoff is worth it.

I have an eight month old daughter. Is she getting her shots on schedule? Heck, yes!

[Steve]

Mabus:

Three quick points (all I have time for)...

1. I reject the legalism of don't play cards, don't dance...its silly. I think people in my church finally woke up to that.

2. The upside downness I'm referring to is not avoiding these things. Its living a generous life, caring for your neighbor, reaching out to the hurting, caring for the environment, willing to make decisions that are not necessarily in my best interests but better for society as a whole....as opposed to being individualistic and focused on getting ahead for the sake of myself and my family alone.

3. I make no claim to be great at point 2 above...but its the goal.

[Steve]

Mabus: A friend of mine (and Fred) used to call this Outdulgence. We do live a fun, full live. He's threw the best parties I've ever been to. But living this way was not just for myself, but to be shared with others. Outdulgence as opposed to Indulgence.

[Steve]

Okay, that last post needed an editor on several levels. Gotta get back to work...

[Amaryllis]

J, I also checked out that site, and of course my attention was immediately caught by the link to "Letters Concerning the Twelve Tribes' Treatment of Jews, Homosexuals, Blacks and Women."

And I have to echo Dorothy: Yikes indeed. This ain't peace and brotherhood (or sisterhood).
---

alfigu: Possibly the better course is somewhere in between, where we don't jump off the ladder but instead try to extend it sideways so that everyone can fit on the middle rung?

First you have to have a middle rung. Sadly, that can't be taken for granted everywhere. After reading all these ladder metaphors, I was struck by this article in today's Baltimore Sun, on a Johns Hopkins study of the correlation between inner-city addresses and the risk of heart attacks and stroke:

For [Dr. Thomas A. Glass, a researcher at the university's Bloomberg School of Public Health], the issue - in Baltimore and similar cities across the country - comes down largely to the economy: "Starting in the '50s, we lost the lower and middle rungs of the economic ladder. All the solid-paying union and manufacturing jobs that anchored people to these neighborhoods, those jobs left."

Baltimore City Health Commissioner Joshua M. Sharfstein said the study "adds to the growing body of knowledge that health is more than a collection of individual behaviors." More than anything, he said, the study underlined the deep links between health, economy and culture. "Health is in the mix, even when we might not think it's in the mix," he said.

So what happens to a city where the middle rungs are missing, and there's a giant unbridgeable gap between the top and the bottom? Nothing good, that's what. No for individual well-being, and not for public health, either.

[Angelika]

@ J: We have these sect in town, too. Nice people, it seems, form the few conversations I had with them. However, people whose religious view separate humankind in four groups from the "holy" (a.k.a. they themselves) to the "filthy" who are beyond any chance of redemption, make me always a bit wary. (I bothered to read their little leaflets.)

[Tonio]

A while back, I found out from several posts on Etiquette Hell that Southern Baptist wedding receptions do not include alcohol. A couple of the posts had a whining tone, complaining that it was unfair and/or unrealistic to require people not to drink at receptions. But I was confused when I later found out that most Christian denominations do not forbid alcohol - I didn't know why they weren't following the alcohol prohibition in Leviticus. Apparently the only other dry denominations are the Latter-Day Saints and the Seventh-Day Adventists.

[Angelika]

Tonio: But I was confused when I later found out that most Christian denominations do not forbid alcohol - I didn't know why they weren't following the alcohol prohibition in Leviticus.

I guess, the story of Jesus turning water into wine might be a hint to most Christians, that alcohol consumption is okay (at least in moderation.)

[Tonio]

I guess, the story of Jesus turning water into wine might be a hint to most Christians, that alcohol consumption is okay (at least in moderation.)

I never picked up on that, because Leviticus is straightforward in its prohibition. I would have only picked up on it if the Gospels had Jesus explicitly stating that moderate consumption was OK. I guess it would be the equivalent of doing a shooting trick and discouraging people from trying it at home.

[Steve]

You mean the story about Jesus turning water into grape juice?

[Jon]

You mean the story about Jesus turning water into grape juice?

Or turning water into...water.
(Based on how some denominations handle Communion,using water in place of wine or grape juice.)

[Steve]

On the drinking issue. While most congregations don't prohibit it...many individual churches (evangelical that is) I know still frown upon it and do not allow alcohol on the premises of the church itself.

My mom can rationally understand that their is nothing wrong with responsible, social drinking...but she'll finish the conversation with "but you don't need to start drinking to prove a point!" Makes me chuckle.