Questioning questions

Over  on Christianity Today's Politics Blog, Sarah Pulliam asks "Can Obama Call Himself a Christian?"

The asking, and particularly the answering, of that question is -- to borrow a phrase -- way above Pulliam's pay grade.

Here, I think, is the relevant passage from Matthew's Gospel:

The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

The owner's servants got together and decided that they'd surprise their master by ripping out all the weeds and burning them at the stake. As they smelled the burning flesh and listened to the anguished screams of the dying weeds, they said to one another, "I can't wait until the master gets back -- won't he be delighted to see what we've done?"

Then the master called the servants in. "You wicked servants," he said, "I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?" In anger their master turned them over to the jailers to be tortured, until they should pay back all they owed.

(I seem to have gotten a few pages stuck together there.)

Compared to Newsweek, CT actually seems restrained in confining itself to "offer[ing] readers a place to comment" on whether or not Obama's affirmation that he is a Christian meets their standards of legitimacy. Newsweek's Lisa Miller addresses an even sillier question: "Is Obama the Antichrist?"

 Miller seems to be leaning toward "probably not," but she still thinks it's an important question because: A) a lot of white Protestants think Obama might be the Antichrist and B) if a lot of people believe in something, then it can't be dismissed as nuts. In support of this logic, Miller cites no less an authority than the dean of a law school founded by Jerry Falwell:

Mat Staver, dean of Liberty University's law school, says he does not believe Obama is the Antichrist, but he can see how others might. Obama's own use of religious rhetoric belies his liberal positions on abortion and traditional marriage, Staver says, positions that "religious conservatives believe will threaten their freedom." The people who believe Obama is the Antichrist are perhaps jumping to conclusions, but they're not nuts: "They are expressing a concern and a fear that is widely shared," Staver says.

Atrios responded appropriately:

Does Lisa Miller Have Sex With Goats? It's a widely held belief. The people who hold it may be jumping to conclusions, but they're not nuts.

Maybe that's not the nicest way to make that point (Steve Benen is just as exasperated by Miller's article, but he expresses this without dragging up those rumors of Miller's affection for goats) but I'm not inclined to work hard at being nice when Miller also repeats the error of referring to prophecy mania as a form of "conservative" Christianity -- as though the right-wing politics of a fringe sect somehow makes their 19th-century inventions the new standard for orthodox theology.

Newsweek and Miller are employing a sleazy trick learned from the supermarket tabloids: Using the question headline to feed -- and feed off of -- a baseless and bogus rumor. "Is Brad cheating on Angie?" the cover asks. Turn to page 43 and you'll find a tiny item below a supposedly incriminating photo that explains that, actually, no, this is just a picture from Brad Pitt's next movie that we cropped out of context and retouched to make you think there might be something to this story even though there isn't and the Brangelina remains, by all accounts, quite happy.

Miller's piece is book-ended by conversations with Todd Strandberg, proprietor of RaptureReady.com (not to be confused with GetRaptureReady.com -- Daniel Radosh's site for his book, Rapture Ready, which offers a far clearer perspective on people like Strandberg than anything Miller's piece approaches). Here's how the Newsweek piece ends:

Strandberg says Obama probably isn't the Antichrist, but he's watching the president-elect carefully. On his Web site, he has something called the Rapture Index, a calculation based on signs and prophecy of the proximity of the end. According to Strandberg, any number over 160 means "fasten your seat belts." Obama's win pushed the index to 161.

This is the guy Miller wants to start and end with to prove these people aren't nuts? The man is nuttier than a vegan diet. But rather than engage that vast and many-layered nuttiness here, let me just quibble around the edges. If you really believe what Strandberg believes, shouldn't the high-end of the Rapture Index be "un-fasten your seat belts"? Otherwise one gets this strange mental image of Bette Davis as the archangel ...

Comments

[HNT]

Duncan Black, liberal blogger, says he does not believe Lisa Miller has sex with goats, but he can see how others might. Miller's own use of religious rhetoric belies her absurd positions on eschatology and traditional biblical exegesis, Black says, positions that "sane people believe will threaten their freedom." The people who believe Miller has sex with goats are perhaps jumping to conclusions, but they're not nuts: "They are expressing a concern and a fear that is widely shared," Black says.

[David]

*brain breaking*

A comment from the Newsweek article: "Does anyone think that the US would ever make war with Isreal? Of course not. According to the Bible, the antichrist's armies will make war with Isreal. The US would never make war with Isreal, therefore the antichrist can't be the US president. It defies logic."

Yes... THAT.... is why... it defies... logic....

...*whimper*...

[Freelance Physicist]

Obama's description of his faith--especially regarding the afterlife--reminds me a lot of some things the religious scholar Karen Armstrong has said.

From an interview with Salon.com:

What about an afterlife?

It's a red herring as far as I'm concerned.

But you must have thought about that question. Does everything end once we die?

I don't know. I prefer to be agnostic on that matter, as do most of the world's religions. It's really only Christianity and Islam that are obsessed with afterlife in this way. It was not a concern in the Axial Age, not for any of them. I think the old scenarios of heaven and hell can be unreligious. People can perform their good deeds in the spirit of putting their installments in their retirement annuities. And there's nothing religious about that. Religion is supposed to be about the loss of the ego, not about its eternal survival.

Source

[Kit Whitfield]

Isn't it supposed to be a sin to impugn a fellow-Christian's faith?

[Jim]

Mat Staver, dean of Liberty University's law school, says he does not believe Obama is the Antichrist, but he can see how others might.

The dean of my law school was a tax professor. Perhaps Liberty has different courses?

--------------------

I read the Newsweek article. Ahh, yes. Call a few people, read Victoria Jackson's website, and write an article. Use the dean of Liberty University's law school for "balance." Not have any clue as to what you're writing about. Journalism at its finest.

What is really scary is that Miller's piece is headlined "Belief Watch," and she's Newsweek's beat reporter. Yet, she believes the Rapture and a reign lasting for precisely a "thousand years" is part of a traditional Christian End Times philosophy.

[Spalanzani]

"According to Strandberg, any number over 160 means "fasten your seat belts." Obama's win pushed the index to 161."

At the risk of diving into this guy's world of insanity and death, exactly how did he peg 160 as the tipping point for "fasten your seat belts"-level signs and portents?

[MikhailBorg]

For these people, the "fasten your seat belts" number is derived by subtracting 1 from the "Obama wins the presidency" number.

[harmfulguy]

Back in 1996, how seriously did Newsweek cover the allegations that both Clinton and Dole has been replaced by tentacled horrors?

[Stephen]

I once had the pleasure of witnessing the fundamentalist members of my family sit around having a serious discussion about whether Obama or Hillary Clinton might be the Antichrist. They decided Clinton wasn't, because the Antichrist has to be male (even Satan doesn't have liberal gender-equity policies, I guess), and that Obama wasn't, because while he certainly fits the "charismatic" qualification, they figure the Antichrist has to be Eastern European (because LaHaye and Jenkins said so).

Watching people have a dead serious conversation like this was surreal.

[John Costello]

Other serious questions I'd like to see handled seriously by Newsweek:

"Could Obama be the Maitreya Buddha? We talk to some Buddhists who think it might well be the case..."

"Has the entire Bush family along with the entire ruling class of Europe been replaced with lizards in people suits? Some people have genuine concerns..."

[Richard Hershberger]

It seems to me we are missing the big picture here. Surely I am not the only one to notice that Lisa Miller has not denied having sex with goats, so we can take that as an implicit admission. The real question is whether these goats are billy goats or nanny goats.

[SueW]

...exactly how did he peg 160 as the tipping point for "fasten your seat belts"-level signs and portents?

Shouldn't it be 666?

[Steve]

My response to people who thought Obama was the Anti-Christ was "well, you might as well vote for him then because there is no stopping him. Why try?"

(Okay, I never said that to anybody, but I thought it. SO THERE! TAKE THAT OBAMA-ANTI-CHRIST-BELIEVERS! I SHOWED YOU!)

We have one friend who thought this and said so in front of my wife, but I wasn't there.

For more excitement from the nutty crowd, see this (and I post this as an evangelical...a progressive evangelical...but a lot of my friends/family really respect people in this video):
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/individuals/lou-engle

[Geds]

For these people, the "fasten your seat belts" number is derived by subtracting 1 from the "Obama wins the presidency" number.

Ah, nothing like laughing out loud at work...

Isn't it supposed to be a sin to impugn a fellow-Christian's faith?

Why yes, yes it is. At least, that's the part where the wheat and the tares thing that Fred's unfortunately partially redacted Bible is supposed to come in.

But one of the great things about fundagelical Christianity is that most people are more than a little obsessed with just how Christian everyone else is. There's like a checklist and everything for many of them.

Wait, did I say "great?" I meant, "One of the reasons I left..."

[Steve]

What is really scary is that Miller's piece is headlined "Belief Watch," and she's Newsweek's beat reporter. Yet, she believes the Rapture and a reign lasting for precisely a "thousand years" is part of a traditional Christian End Times philosophy.

My favorite example of a reporter woefully in over their head was some reporter from some magazine (can't remember the details) who was writing an article in the mid 90's on Bill Clinton's faith. She was being interviewed on the Today Show and they asked her, "what is Bill Clinton's favorite passage from the Bible?" and no kidding she said Galatians XX:XX...can't remember the passage but she pronounced it gal-ah-TEE-enz. I was dumbfounded.

[Spalanzani]

OK, so I looked around the Rapture Ready site quite a bit, but I couldn't find any reason as to why 160 is the big cut-off point. But I did find quite a few strange things.

Some things from the Rapture Index page:

02 Occult:
There has been two major news events involving witchcraft
and murder.

14 Supernatural:
A rash of crimes related to witchcraft has raised
this category.

Does anyone know what crimes he's referring to? I can't say I've notices this trend in the news.

And then there's this:

30 The Peace Process:
For what it's worth, Israel and the Arabs pledge to work
together for a lasting peace.

So the peace process is a sure sign of the end of times. I know Fred's mentioned this perverse belief many times, but it's still god damn creepy to see it.

There's also a bunch of timelines for different things. My favorite is the "immorality" timeline, that opens with this:

This timeline was very difficult to put together. There are very few references that list examples of immorality. It's unfortunate that most Christians organization fails to document a history of the immorality that transpires around them. If they were to keep list of events, they'd noticed an ominous downward trend. Because we're rapidly running out of perversions that have not been exploited, eventually the immorality timeline will stop or slow to a crawl.

South Park features heavily in the immorality timeline, with these two entries:

The cartoon program South Park begins airing on Comedy Central. The show quickly established itself as a tend setter for filth and blasphemy

On its June 20 episode, animated characters on Comedy Central's South Park used the s-word a staggering 162 times - more than seven times a minute.

I think he's talking about the episode where everyone saying "shit" so many times ends up awakening some ancient monster, that being the reason "shit" was a bad word in the first place. So actually if anything that episode promotes having a clean mouth.

Here's an entry in the "drugs" timelines:

2008• Websites are targeting children with "digital drugs". They sell audio files which consist of binaural beats, which must be used with head phones and play different sounds in each ear. They are not in and of themselves "music" but sound waves designed to induce drug-like effects, and they can be embedded into music. Various "services" are provided, depending on the website, but among them are binaural beats made to mimic the effects of alcohol, marijuana, LSD, crack, heroin, and some are even supposed to simulate sexual desire, heaven and hell. A Duke University study suggests that binaural beats can affect mood and motor performance.

Is this stuff real? I've heard of binaural beats, but nothing about them mimicing the effects of alcohol, LSD, et al. I'd dismiss it offhand because of the source, but if there is a form of downloadable LSD then that's something I'd certainly like to check out.

Then there's a big FAQ section:

Do animals have souls?

Animals clearly do not have souls. This question is sparked over thoughts of what will happen to pets like dogs and cats when their lives end or when we're raptured. Over the years there have been trillions of animals on the earth, and heaven would be a very crowded place if each one of had a soul.

I love how apparently heaven has a limited seating capacity.

The fact that animals don't have a soul is, in a way, an advantage to them. I've lost several pets over the years, and I firmly believe that in Heaven I can ask God to bring each one back to life. With humans this outcome is not possible. I've had several relatives die in what I feared was a lost state. If I should make Heaven my home, I know I'll never see them again.

If I were a dog, I'd want a Christian as my master.

...no comment...

Here's a question on "if the war on terror can be one". His answer:

Terrorists are tools of Satan, sent to wreak havoc and fear all around the world. While it looks as though we may not win this fight in the short term, we will in the long run! That is a promise from the Word of God.

Notice though, we are not called to win the fight; we are called to fight the fight! Ephesians chapter 6 goes on to explain how to do that. We must put on the armor of God so that we can stand firm in the face of evil. And we must pray!

So then, eternal war until literally the end of time. Sounds like a great plan.

There's also a question on if there's intelligent life on other planets:

The Bible makes no direct reference to this quandary. The fact that Jesus came to earth does seem to point in the direction of earth being the only source of life. If there are other worlds, the question needs to be asked: Did Jesus visit them?

Satan would be a great problem. Because the devil is not omnipresent like God, it's hard to imagine him pulling double duty on some other planet.

Isn't Satan supposed to have minions to do that kind of stuff?

Finally, one of the FAQ sections is labled "silly". Because, you know, the rest of the site isn't at all silly.

How does an accident go horribly wrong?

If an accident were to go horribly wrong, then itwould end up being okay for everyone involved, since bydefinition an accident is something bad, and ifsomething bad goes wrong, then that must be somethinggood.

That actually makes quite a bit of sense.

[Geds]

By the by, Fred: the Christianity Today link is all broke and stuff.

[Steve]

Two more articles on the topic...

First is Obama is not an orthodox Christian:
http://culture11.com/blogs/kuoandjoe/2008/11/12/the-faith-of-obama/

And this guy (who I know more about...actually read one of Alan Jacobs books) says we need to take him at his word:
http://theamericanscene.com/2008/11/17/on-being-a-christian

[MikhailBorg]

It's unfortunate that most Christians organization fails to document a history of the immorality that transpires around them. If they were to keep list of events, they'd noticed an ominous downward trend.

"We don't actually have any evidence, but I'm sure if we did it would back me up."

The fact that animals don't have a soul is, in a way, an advantage to them. I've lost several pets over the years, and I firmly believe that in Heaven I can ask God to bring each one back to life.

"Being surrounded by soulless creatures comforts me."

some ['binaural beats'] are even supposed to simulate sexual desire

Or, y'know, you could just find some free porn online. Gotta be easier.

Yeesh, I had more, but I can't take it any longer.

[Geds]

I think they're getting confused. Someone was listening to Pearl Jam's Binaural while taking hits of LSD and surfing the internet for porn. They found RaptureReady.com and decided to send a hilarious email that was, in turn, added to the end times checklist.

Anyway, Christians of this stripe have a history of having problems with the beats of music even if the rest of the world knows they're insane. Enter syncopated beat evil rock music in to The Google and you'll find all kinds of wackiness.

[Geds]

Oops, my last post was supposed to start with a reference to this:

Is this stuff real? I've heard of binaural beats, but nothing about them mimicing the effects of alcohol, LSD, et al. I'd dismiss it offhand because of the source, but if there is a form of downloadable LSD then that's something I'd certainly like to check out.

[Freelance Physicist]

Here's a link to the full transcript of the Obama interview. Lots of good stuff. It's obvious, though, that the interviewer and Obama are talking right past each other; Falsani (and all the commentators) are looking for the classic American Protestant catchphrases, and Obama is not operating on the same wavelength.

There interview was also reprinted here at Christianity Today and the comments show a stark contrast between those who think him enlightened and compassionate and those who think him relativist and damned.

[J]

*Isn't it supposed to be a sin to impugn a fellow-Christian's faith?*

Why isn't it *not* a sin for a Christian to impugn *anyone's* faith?

[Em]

@ Jim | Nov 20, 2008 at 08:42 AM
Mat Staver, dean of Liberty University's law school, says he does not believe Obama is the Antichrist, but he can see how others might.

The dean of my law school was a tax professor. Perhaps Liberty has different courses?

*lol* Indeed. I expect that the requirements might be somewhat different, although I'd guess the ability to smooze with donors and dictate faculty directives is much the same.

[McJulie]

looking for the classic American Protestant catchphrases, and Obama is not operating on the same wavelength.

And that, I think, is why the evangelical right is obsessed with somehow proving that Obama isn't "really" a Christian. They hate what he represents -- first, they hate that he won the election without pandering to them. They are terrified of losing the political power they have come to take for granted. If Obama could win without them, that means *anybody* could win without them.

And more, he represents a completely different approach to faith itself than what they are pushing: compassionate, undogmatic, inclusive, cleanly separated from politics, thoughtful, personal, and not based on whipping up everyone's tribalistic instincts.

If Obama (and our host Fred, and other people whose faith is more like theirs) becomes the public face of what it means to be a Christian in this country...

It means the Christian Right is OVER. Done. Finished. Kaput. Fringified for the forseeable future.

So, yeah, they see him as an Antichrist figure, because he represents *their* apocalypse.

Anyway, Christians of this stripe have a history of having problems with the beats of music even if the rest of the world knows they're insane. Enter syncopated beat evil rock music in to The Google and you'll find all kinds of wackiness.

I believe this is probably a crypto-racist holdover from the jazz age.

But there's also a persistent belief, possibly all the way from the Puritans, that any activity which is too much *fun* is highly suspect. Drink and drugs and promiscuous sex all have their own drawbacks sort of built in, but music? What harm is there in music, in dancing?

There isn't any. So they have to make up weird stuff that isn't real in order to pretend that there is.

Hillary Clinton is also a reptilian humanoid!

What does it all mean?

[James]

Awhile back, I read one of the Left Behind books. At the time I was reading it, the Antichrist in the book and President Bush in real life did the same thing simultaneously- I think it was something like bombing a certain country for the same reasons- I forget exactly.
Ever the antagonist, I fired off emails to the authors, asking if Bush was indeed the AntiChrist, just to rattle their chains. Somehow, with Bush in office, the response I got from one of them was that "No way, no how. No president of the US of A could ever be the antichrist." They had some obscure reasoning for it that I didn't follow.
So I find it interesting that it is now possible.

[Froborr]

Thanks for the link to the complete text of the Obama interview! That was wonderful, and an excellent summation of why antitheism is so wrongheaded. It's the expression of the myth, not the myth, that matters.

Interesting that, when summing up his polyglot religious background, he mentioned an "intellectual" Jewish influence. I'm not sure what that means. But this is a quintessentially Jewish attitude:

What I believe in is that if I live my life as well as I can, that I will be rewarded. I don't presume to have knowledge of what happens after I die. But I feel very strongly that whether the reward is in the here and now or in the hereafter, the aligning myself to my faith and my values is a good thing.

I think it is absurd to quibble about whether he's Christian or not. The right to define one's own identity is absolutely fundamental, may indeed be the single most fundamental of all rights. If he wants to call himself a Christian, then he is a type of Christian. It may not be your type of Christian, or what you consider to be the "right" type of Christian, but it's a type of Christian.

[graylion]

Now we know where the staff of the National Inquirer went ...

[Jon]

The people who believe Obama is the Antichrist are perhaps jumping to conclusions, but they're not nuts

When I read the article, I stumbled over that sentence simply because nothing is said to back up that assertion. Why aren't they nuts? What legitimate and sane basis is there for their belief? The best the author can provide is, essentially, that a lot of people believe it. Therefore it's not nutty. Oh, okay.
I think that too often we find that the media are reluctant, or unwilling, to call a spade a spade, or, more to the point, call a spade a bat-shit insane spade. I can understand why that would be the case, but even so, someone has to do it.
As for the goat sex thing, it brought to mind a scene from Wanted (the comic, not the movie):

Wesley: Happy goat-f*cking, Mister Rictus.
Mr. Rictus: What? What did you say to me?
Wesley: Nothing.
Mr. Rictus: I don't f*ck goats, Mister Gibson. I make love to them.

[Geds]

I think that too often we find that the media are reluctant, or unwilling, to call a spade a spade, or, more to the point, call a spade a bat-shit insane spade.

I think that sort of thing contributes mightily to the distrust of the media in America. We read something and think, "Wow, what a complete nut-job," while the reporter is saying, "It really isn't insane, that's why we went and talked to Cam Camcam of the Christian Happiness Coalition at his secret underground lair. He took some time off of his letter writing campaign to get the government to stop putting surveillance chips in whole milk to give us his perspective..."

[Tonio]

From her picture on Newsweek/Post OnFaith, Lisa Miller looks like actress Rachel Griffiths.

B) if a lot of people believe in something, then it can't be dismissed as nuts.

Has Miller ever read James Loewen?

Obama's own use of religious rhetoric belies his liberal positions on abortion and traditional marriage, Staver says, positions that "religious conservatives believe will threaten their freedom."

While I agree with Fred about the fallacy of describing prophecy mania as "conservative" Christianity, let's assume that Staver is right that those Christians hold the belief above. Is it worth asking why they do so? Do they believe that gay marriage will result in straights losing their right to marry, or do they believe that clergy members will be legally unable to refuse to officiate at gay weddings? Or how about the old canard about people being forced to accept things they regard as abnormal? Sounds like the authoritarian view that normality amounts to a set of rules.

[MikhailBorg]

letter writing campaign to get the government to stop putting surveillance chips in whole milk

Whole milk is fine, it's the 2% milk that you have to watch out for. What's the other 98 percent? They won't tell us!!!1!!

And as is well known, skim milk is absolutely a tool of the Antichrist.

[Mumphrey]

About Lisa Miller and goats, I have to quote Ann (shudder) Coulter:
"Is it irresponsible to peculate? It's irresponsible NOT to."

[Geds]

From the Newsweek article:

Now Strandberg was receiving up-to-the-minute news from his constituents in Illinois. One of the winning lottery numbers in the president-elect's home state was 666— which, as everyone knows, is the sign of the Beast (also known as the Antichrist). "It is very eerie, and I take it for a sign as to who he really is," wrote one of Strandberg's correspondents.

[Insert sound of loud laughter here.]

Something about the "which, as everyone knows," amuses me to no end. First, not everyone knows that. Second, not everyone who knows that actually agrees with it. Third, who really freaking cares?

Three seconds of research at the Illinois Lottery site (which I visited based on the theory that someone should fact-check the 666 thing, which was actually the case) tells us that on October 25th of 2008 the Pick 3 was 911. I wonder what significance that has?

Oh, and 666 came up on November 5th, the day after the election. So at least god is keeping up with the trend of sending poorly timed messages to the faithful...

[Jessica]

"Here's a link to the full transcript of the Obama interview. Lots of good stuff. It's obvious, though, that the interviewer and Obama are talking right past each other; Falsani (and all the commentators) are looking for the classic American Protestant catchphrases, and Obama is not operating on the same wavelength."

It's obvious why Obama is missing all the classic American Protestant catchphrases-- he's not a classic American Protestant. I don't mean to say he's not a Christian, but he wasn't raised in a classic fundagelical church that was in some way part of James Dobson's legion. At Rev. Wright's church, I doubt he got any of the James Dobson/Focus on the Family/classic American Protestant teaching. GW Bush is good at all the evangelical dog whistles for the exact opposite reasons.

Regarding raptureready.com, I have to say it again-- I'd really like to fivethirtyeight.com apply themselves to that type of analysis. It would be WAY more interesting. Also, as an aside, the Ship of Fools website has a link at the top of their page to raptureready.com that is in the form of: "Current Chance of Rapture: 63.7%"
Always cracks me up whenever I see it. If you click on the percentage value, it kicks you over to the raptureready.com page.

[Thalia]

I stopped to click the feed while procrastinating about work waiting for my coffee to be ready, read the first passage, roared with laughter. I'll be back after work.

[Sarah B]

@Mumphrey: Upon first reading, I treated "peculate" as an unknown word and derived the meaning from context. Just so you know. XD

[1982_Cygni]

Here are the conclusions I drew from the RaptureReady site:

1. Cartoons of all sorts are potentially evil, because they could be used as tools for the anti-Christ, don't acknowledge Jesus enough. Even the Veggie Tales are evil because they discuss Christianity in a watered down way. (Would it be more appropriate then, if they sang creepy songs that God is watching you masturbate, and will send you to hell for it, as Bob the Cucumber and Larry the Tomato [sic] did on Drawn Together?) Sooo, Osamu Tezuka, Hayao Miyazaki, Don Bluth, Matt Groening, Walt Disney, Nicholas Park and that other guy who made Wallace & Gromit, and the creators of the Veggie Tales can all go hell--literally. (Although from what I read about Disney, he may have deserved it.)

2. Comic books are also evil because they promote worship of superheroes. (Huh, funny; I learned on PBS some months ago that a Muslim imam--i.e. guy from the Evil Eastern Religion--decried a popular Arabic comic book called The 99 because it promoted faith in the powers of humans, not Allah God.

3. Civil rights seems to be evil for some reason. (BTW, can anyone explain here why Tim LaHaye seems to believe that the NAACP is part of the axis of evil? Does he really want to go back to having the blacks sit on the back of the bus?)

4. Immorality did not arise until the 1930's--NEVER MIND child prostitution in Victoria-era England, juvenile crime in Dickens' England, centuries of locking the disabled in institutions without schooling or training or even family, burning woman herbalists ("witches") at the stake in Salem, exterminating whole tribes of West Africans and Native Americans for cheap labor and cheap land, killing the last librarian of Alexandria (Hypatia) by goring her with abalone shells and then torching her books, ancient Rome's foundation myth of fraticide followed by rape en masse, centuries of royal families marrying first cousins or half-siblings in the name of blood purity, and large portions of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Judges, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, etc. etc....This guy has NO sense of historical context.

5. Apparently, Carl Sagan thought we were decades from Doomsday. Since when can does any right-wing Christian worth his/her salt think he was right about ANYTHING?

[Cowboy Diva]

Sarah B, you were just speculating, right?

[hapax]

Umm, 1982_Cygni, I adore a good rant as much as anybody, but...

burning woman herbalists ("witches") at the stake in Salem

?????

[Geds]

Does he really want to go back to having the blacks sit on the back of the bus?

Short answer: probably.

Immorality did not arise until the 1930's

Nobody had sex outside of marriage or engaged in homosexual acts until the 1960s. It's proven historical fact*.

*As handed down to us by the Society for a Better America Based on an America that Never Existed (SBABANE), who would like to remind you that America was founded by the fun-loving Pilgrims who only wanted religious freedom and happiness for everyone and would give you a puppy if they were alive today.

[Jon]

This article from The Onion seems appropriate: I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

[Alan]

>About Lisa Miller and goats, I have to quote Ann (shudder) Coulter:
>"Is it irresponsible to peculate? It's irresponsible NOT to."

Actually, it was Peggy Noonan who said that, not that she's any less crazy.

[Geds]

So to what logical limit can we take the "it's irresponsible not to speculate" concept?

Is your next door neighbor actually a forward scout for an alien invasion?

Can reading give you cancer?

Is your spouse planning on waiting until you fall asleep so he/she can harvest your organs, then get remarried and start the process again?

Can I fly under my own power if I simply jump off a building and want to really, really bad?

[damnedyankee]

burning woman herbalists ("witches") at the stake in Salem

Point of order here: The "witches" of Salem were hung, except for one (a man named Giles Corey) who was crushed by rocks. I can't speak for their proficiency in herbalism. Burning at the stake was more the style of the Catholic countries in Europe, while the Protestants went for hanging.

[Cyllan]

Thank you, Hapax.

Still, nice rant 1982_Cygni.

[damnedyankee]

Can I fly under my own power if I simply jump off a building and want to really, really bad?

Oo! Oo! I know this one!

"No."

(How could you betray me, o trusted Superman cape? You were an officially approved piece of merchandising!)

[Jenny Islander]

Also, Hypatia was not "the last librarian of Alexandria" and she was probably murdered by stoning with roofing tiles, not abalone shells. Nevertheless, good rant.

[Cowboy Diva]

Has the term christianity lost all value except as a cultural marker, like say, Western/European, or New Wave?

Is there still some point to using it as a tenet of exclusivity where we can name some people as heretics and others as going to heaven (whatever that means)?

Because if christianity is now nothing more than shorthand for a culture mostly from the western hemisphere or former european colonies who take December 25th off work, then is it even worth discussing the "christianity" of President-Elect Obama versus that of Mr. Bush? or my christianity versus that of hapax, or aunursa's lack thereof?

What do we lose? What do we gain?

[Brandi]

?????

I will be charitable and assume 1982_Cygni doesn't get all her information on witches from Silver Ravenwolf.

No witches were burned in Salem; burning was the penalty often in the witch trials of Europe in the 15th and 16th century.