First order of business

 

Thanks to everyone for their patience as we gradually start to work things out.

The first major issue to settle is the question of moderation policy. From reading the comments, we get the impression that the majority wish is for moderation to be limited to removing obvious spam and threats, and for the merely offensive posts to be handled by the community as before. We propose that we try this for a while and see how it works for everyone. If people have concerns, please feel free to e-mail us; we will preserve anonymity for anyone who wishes.

While for practical reasons we'll be staying at the same address, in the interests of respecting Fred's separate space and the new situation we'll be changing the name of the board. Let's hear from you about what you'd prefer.

The next post will address the issue of content. We can't say very much about how we'll interrelate with Fred's posts because we still don't know, but we'll start setting out a plan for how to manage community-produced posts.

          

The Board Administration Team

hapax

Kit Whitfield

mmy

Edited because other people hated the font I initally chose. (mmy)

        

Edited yet again because all really fun things must come to an end or else we won't be able to tabulate the nominations and bring matters back to the board for a vote.

The nominations for new board name and new board motto will be closed at 16:00 GMT March 12, 2011 (that's noon EDT.)

Comments

[Lunch Meat]

As far as content goes, I like the idea of having at least some posts made by commenters. For me, at least, it's really hard to keep up with every single slacktivite's blog, and so I think it would be cool to have, maybe once or twice a week, a featured blog post from someone's blog, and that way if something catches a reader's interest, they can follow that blog consistently. Of course if you cross-posted every single post from every single slacktivite's blog it would quickly get unmanageable and overwhelming.

[Nicolae Carpathia]

I think that was the plan from the start, Lunch Meat.

[Jason]

Can we still at least attempt to ban Dennis Markuze, thought it may not work?

Also I think its kind of a general consensus that we all want J gone as well.

I think the banhammer should be wielded as infrequently as Fred wielded it and it should be only after its obvious that particular person is not going to stop and the entire community is generally tired of their shit.

[Jason]

I like Lunch Meat's idea.

Maybe occasionally have one slacktivist be a featured poster for the day and crosspost one of their blog posts. It'd be cool if we changed Fred's blogroll on the side to a slacktivist blogroll as well, since this blogroll pretty much duplicates the one Fred already has at new slacktivist.

[Eli]

Would "dancing boobies" as a name attract too much unwanted attention?

[Jarred]

I too love the idea of community-submitted blog posts.

[Laima]

I second Jason's idea of a blog roll of all Slacktivites.

For the new name, I think what we all have in common is being seekers--of truth(s), of community, of new ways to perceive the world and the people in it.

But then my mind goes off in a million directions... Does anyone else see the issue similarly?

[Laima]

I also like the idea of community-submitted blog posts.

[Jarred]

@Eli: Would "dancing boobies" as a name attract too much unwanted attention?

I'd be more concerned about the opposite: People who would enjoy the site and our community getting the wrong idea and avoiding the site.

[Ruth (formerly alfgifu) (now alfgifu again over at the other place)]

Jason: I thought a previously stated reason for not trying to ban Dennis Markuze was that he was known to persistently spam places from different IP addresses to get around banning, to the extent of making comments unreadable. That it would just encourage him to focus on (whatever this blog ends up being called) and devote more time to making life difficult for people here. Given that his posts are generally easily recognisable because of the format, isn't it easier just to ignore him?

I don't really have a strong opinion either way about J, but I wouldn't vote to ban him if it came to a vote. I'm not sure if I've commented frequently enough to be considered part of the community, though, so I'm not sure if I feel as though you're putting words in my mouth or not!*

For a name, why not use 'Slacktivites', if that's not too similar to the current title? I've just found and joined the facebook group,** and it seems sensible to stick to the same name.

Other suggestions:
- Slackommunity
- Ye Olde Slackke Blog

---

* To be extra clear so this doesn't look accusatory, I'm only slightly uncomfortable with that, enough to mention it and disagree but not hugely bothered. :)
** Huzzah!

[Account Deleted]

I second Jason's idea of a blog roll of all Slacktivites.

Seems like a great idea. From what I've seen (poor lurker that I am), it seems this space is about to move into a more "community blog"-like direction - especially if we end up doing the "some posts made by commenters" thing - so it would only make sense to keep a list like this.

While for practical reasons we'll be staying at the same address, in the interests of respecting Fred's separate space and the new situation we'll be changing the name of the board. Let's hear from you about what you'd prefer.

I believe this was discussed in the other thread to some extent. My (subjective) vote would be for "Slacktivites" with a tag line of "It's more complicated than that".

[Jarred]

There's a Slacktivite facebook page? I missed that! Can someone provide a link?

[Laima]

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/group.php?gid=116082223393

[Jason]

@Ruth-

I thought a previously stated reason for not trying to ban Dennis Markuze was that he was known to persistently spam places from different IP addresses to get around banning, to the extent of making comments unreadable. That it would just encourage him to focus on (whatever this blog ends up being called) and devote more time to making life difficult for people here. Given that his posts are generally easily recognisable because of the format, isn't it easier just to ignore him?

He generally focuses on atheist blogs, because that's really who he has the vendetta against, but because he's an ignorant dumbass he has the impression that slacktivist is an atheist blog. I guess because atheists hang out here and aren't immediately shunned as pariahs. I know Personal Failure who sometimes posts on slacktivist and runs the "Forever in Hell" atheist blog had problems with him and usually manages to ban him for a while until he shifts IPs. I also know that Michael Mock has had problems with him and somehow managed to get rid of him. We could at least delete his crap when we see it.

[Firedrake]

All sounds good to me. Personally I'd probably go for a slightly heavier-handed approach but this sounds as though it's going to work. Hurrah!

[Will Wildman]

As a more roundabout way of referencing our emblematic bird, I feel like the term 'Bluefeet' could be put to good use here, somehow. Although almost anyone who posts/reads here at first is likely to appreciate/enjoy Fred's writings, just calling the page 'slacktivites' seems like it implies an authoritative connection with Patheos-slacktivist. I don't know; like people who post there but not here aren't 'slacktivites', or that this community exists solely for people to connect with Fred while avoiding Patheos. And since it seems very likely that Fredmade materials are no longer going to represent the majority of this page's material, it just seems incongruous.

'Bluefeet' just kinda landed in my head and I like it, but my overall point is that 'slacktivites' being what we are now doesn't necessarily mean that's the main way we want to define ourselves hereafter.

[hapax, who is bored at the Reference Desk]

<-- notice that the icon indicates this is merely a personal opinion

I saw a lot of votes for "Slacktivites" in earlier threads.

May I suggest a slight modification to "Slacktivism"? This would avoid confusion with the FB page and other forums, allow us to refer to community members as separate from the blog, and put the focus on what we're doing here, rather than who we are.

This is an aesthetic preference, merely. It's hardly something I'm going to go to the wall for.

I love the tag line "It's more complicated than that."

[Jason]

...and not all of us wish to avoid Patheos. I'm not a fan of patheos. I dislike a lot of the content of the other blogs and I frickin' hate disqus which is a buggy piece of crap, but I'll probably still comment there. I've been commenting there less than here, but that's because its harder to comment there, because disqus is so buggy.

[Froborr]

AGH! The font! It's HORRIBLE!

I'm more or less agnostic on most of the title suggestions, though I agree "Dancing Boobies" is a bad idea.

I'd also vote against banning J, if it came to that. However, I'm against putting bans to a vote, because it turns it into a popularity contest; I'd prefer if we came up with clear rules on what's a bannable offense and a procedure for warning, taking intermediate action, and finally banning repeat offenders.

I like the idea of rotating cross-posts, though I'd prefer it not be a *requirement* that you cross-post. I have some post ideas that honestly don't fit well at either of my blogs ("Progressive Heroes in Science Fiction Television") but might fit well here.

[Jason]

I'd also vote against banning J, if it came to that. However, I'm against putting bans to a vote, because it turns it into a popularity contest; I'd prefer if we came up with clear rules on what's a bannable offense and a procedure for warning, taking intermediate action, and finally banning repeat offenders.

Its just that his posts mostly amount to drive-bys that are designed to be as offensive as possible and he generally doesn't respond to any responses. Although one time I parodied one of his posts and that got him to shut up pretty quickly.

I like the idea of rotating cross-posts, though I'd prefer it not be a *requirement* that you cross-post. I have some post ideas that honestly don't fit well at either of my blogs ("Progressive Heroes in Science Fiction Television") but might fit well here.

I must admit that I feel as if my writing is unworthy to grace the space which once occupied that which Fred Clark wrote, because I don't think that its that good. I feel sort of like if I picked up my guitar and tried to open for Eric Clapton.

[The Board Administration Team]

@Ruth: I thought a previously stated reason for not trying to ban Dennis Markuze was that he was known to persistently spam places from different IP addresses

@Jason: We could at least delete his crap when we see it.

This is the sort of "issue" that comes up when trying to establish moderation policies.

That poster moves around and (judging by the ip#s) uses internet cafes from which to post. The only effective way to block him would be to block an entire large city. And even then it wouldn't work. I can, right now, think of three different ways of getting around such a blockage within 5 minutes. If I can so can he. I fear the only people we would successfully block are the non-technical residents of the city.

You should also consider just how much latitude you want to give to moderators to delete posts. As we put in our policy statement today--right now only obvious spam and threats are being eliminated (I am still in the process of cleaning up some of the stuff that has sneaked through in the last few days.)

Two issues come to my mind with deletion:

First, I get a seriously 1984 vibe from rewriting history. Sometimes it is necessary in order to make the board more readable but then we still have a record of it.

Second, for someone like Markuze being deleted could actually spur him to more obnoxious and determined efforts.

All things that are worth discussing.

BTW, I am sure I have missed some of the spam that came by. If anyone finds something that is clearly spam (and we seem to all be in agreement that THAT should be removed) please email us. It will get cleaned up.

mmy

[Hummingwolf]

AGH! The font! It's HORRIBLE!

Agreeing with Froborr on this. Sans serif fonts have their place, but I'd prefer it if this site stuck with the serif font that Fred's been using all these years.

As for blog titles, "Slacktivites" sounds good to me, though I can understand why people might think it sounds like the folks commenting over on the new Slacktivist aren't Real, True Slacktivites. Maybe it needs some kind of modifier to work? "Slacktivism" sounds too generic, somehow.

[Laima]

I hadn't thought to compare the quality of my writing to Fred's, but I was more wondering what I could write about that would be of interest to people who come here. Currently my blog posts are mostly about my inner life, my reading list, and occasional forays into art and creativity. Every once in a while I post something philosophical.

I remember Lonespark mentioning the idea of posts from people talking about their religious traditions or beliefs, and that seems the likeliest for me to be something other people might be interested in.

I haven't had much experience with people finding me interesting, and then telling me so. So I'm generally completely mystified about what other people think of me.

[Account Deleted]

I must admit that I feel as if my writing is unworthy to grace the space which once occupied that which Fred Clark wrote, because I don't think that its that good. I feel sort of like if I picked up my guitar and tried to open for Eric Clapton.

Well, you know what they say about shooting for the moon and landing among the stars!

...granted, when it comes to blogs and trying to live up to Fred Clarks' standards, that's more like shooting for Alpha Centauri, but you get the idea. We* should be able to at least preserve the spirit of this place, if not quite the quality.

(* Well... whichever brave souls decide to crosspost here. I know I have neither the ability nor the talent.)

[Jason]

Two issues come to my mind with deletion:

First, I get a seriously 1984 vibe from rewriting history. Sometimes it is necessary in order to make the board more readable but then we still have a record of it.

Second, for someone like Markuze being deleted could actually spur him to more obnoxious and determined efforts.

All things that are worth discussing.

BTW, I am sure I have missed some of the spam that came by. If anyone finds something that is clearly spam (and we seem to all be in agreement that THAT should be removed) please email us. It will get cleaned up.

but Markuze IS spam. Its not on topic. Its copied and pasted. It usually has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. It usually doesn't even make sense. J is not spam. He's just an obnoxious ass. Markuze is spam. Hateful abusive spam, but still spam.

[Ruth (formerly alfgifu) (now alfgifu again over at the other place)]

Ack, yes, rapidly growing to loathe and detest disqus. It's virtually impossible to log in, I can't tell whether I have logged in or not, I can't edit my posts from work (which is where I make most of them), I can't see new posts without refreshing and page-hopping back and forth even after I've had an email telling me that they're there, I can't even use the extremely handy looking 'reply' button because it does weird things to my browser and then doesn't work. /venting

Froborr, I agree that voting on whether or not to ban people would be a bad idea, and wish I'd thought of that before using that figure of speech. Also, since disqus is being such a pain at the moment and I can't say it there, sorry for for misspelling your name over on the other site! I'll do my best to get it right in future.

I really like 'Bluefeet'.

[Mmy]

<-- notice that the icon indicates this is merely a personal opinion

I have a personal fondness for "The Slackers" because it seems less "Real True Slacktivists" and is self deprecating.

I really like "It's more complicated than that" as our blog motto.

[Froborr]

I feel sort of like if I picked up my guitar and tried to open for Eric Clapton.

Nah, it's more like Eric Clapton built a stage, performed on it a few times, then donated it to the local community center.

@mmy: Given that people sometimes respond pretty amusingly to spam, I'm against outright deleting even that. I like the idea of just turning the font white, or failing that rot13. (I think strikethrough is too easy to read accidentally, and disemvoweling is too hard to read intentionally.)

[sarah]

I like the idea of a Slacktivite blogroll. I don't know if my writing's good enough to contribute here, but I'd be willing.

[[21st Century Bird: Well, you know what they say about shooting for the moon and landing among the stars!]]

But...the stars are further away than the moon. So wouldn't you shoot for the stars and maybe not get there and land somewhere around the moon? Or maybe you'd just hang out in space for a while.

[Laima]

I'm not in favor of deleting any posts except spam. I agree with hapax that it would be impossible to ban dmab without creating much worse consequences for a lot more people. I'm not sure I've ever read any of his posts, as the formatting makes it easy to just skip right over them.

From what I recall, when J is posting about topics other than atheism/Christianity, he is often thoughtful and interesting. As long as he's not talking about religion, I do read his posts. But maybe I'm alone in that.

[storiteller]

I'm of two minds about the title....

On one hand, I like "Bluefeet" because it's unique and clearly points to a specific idea.

On the other hand, I like something with a reference to Slacktivist, just so people get the origin. I was thinking "A Community of Slacktivists" myself.

Perhaps we could somehow combine the two?

And "It's more complicated than that" is a perfect tagline.

[Hummingwolf]

The Bluefoot Slackers?

[Will Wildman]

Definitely in support of "It's more complicated than that" as the blog motto. Blotto. No, wait. Not that.

"Slackers" is quite good, but I'd also be interested to hear basically anyone's suggestions for names that veer firmly away from anything that can read as Real True Slacktivites.

[Laima]

mmy: I really like "It's more complicated than that" as our blog motto.

I keep forgetting to say that I heartily endorse this motto as well. Whatever the name turns out to be.

[Froborr]

@Ruth: It's okay. I don't know why that particular misspelling gets my goat, but I've had this handle long enough and consistently enough that it feels as real as my real name, y'know?

[Caravelle]

@Jason re Markuze : His posts are spam for all the reasons you describe, and I'd add another : he shows no interactivity whatsoever. At least he hasn't that I noticed, my brain has gotten better at ignoring him lately.

For the name I really love the punny perfection of "Left Behind Slacktivites" but as nobody's suggesting it here I assume that suggestion got shot down ?

[Joey Maloney]

I have been reading this blog for years, but have never commented before now. Ironic.

Anyway, I also endorse for a rechristening, something incorporating "Left Behind". It just seems too perfect.

[Laima]

re: "Slackers", the self-deprecating reference to the old site makes sense, but for people who join our community in the future, will they have any idea that the origin of the term was Slacktivist? or will they just assume that we are saying we are slackers, full stop? Iow, as an in-joke it works, but if you're not part of the in-joke, the community appears to be about the exact opposite of what it is. And also, if we are trying to avoid giving that "Real True Slacktivist" vibe, then using an in-joke that no one new will get seems the wrong way to go about that.

[Izzy]

Laima: I dunno--my memory of J is that when he's not talking about theism/atheism, he's talking about how privilege doesn't exist and guns are awesome and he's so edgy for liking hentai, OMG.

I wouldn't get up in arms to ban him, but I'd do it if the option existed.

Markuze is spam.

I can't think of anyone else who regularly shows up that I'd classify as totally valueless. I mean, possibly Freedom Fighter.

Honestly, it'd be kind of nice to have an auto-kick to a "these people are probably trolls, but go ahead and debate them if that's how you're feeling today" forum. But that'd need subforums.

I like the Bluefoot Slackers, although/especially because it sounds like a scrappy underdog sports team of some variety. I vote hockey.

[Will Wildman]

(Bah, serial posting.) I also favour the idea of white-text-ifying posts that are considered objectively objectionable; many of us have long wished for text colour control, so let's use what we've got now.

---

But...the stars are further away than the moon. So wouldn't you shoot for the stars and maybe not get there and land somewhere around the moon? Or maybe you'd just hang out in space for a while.

"Shoot for the moon, and even if you miss maybe you'll land in stable near-Earth orbit"?

I don't think I've ever before heard anyone raise the point that the stars are more distant than the moon. It is exactly the kind of rationality that we need to celebrate more often, and is awesome.

I suppose it's technically right, in that if you were launched at sufficient velocity towards the moon and missed, you would drift right on past and eventually end up 'among the stars', but that would first involve unspeakable eons drifting through the merciless void of space, defenceless against cosmic radiation. And Reavers.

Landing among the stars is beginning to sound like a terrible runner-up.

[Jason]

@Laima-

From what I recall, when J is posting about topics other than atheism/Christianity, he is often thoughtful and interesting. As long as he's not talking about religion, I do read his posts. But maybe I'm alone in that.

I agree with you there, but that is a rare occurence and when he is talking about atheism/Christianity what he has to say generally manages to fill me with irrational uncontrollable seething rage.

@Caravelle-

His posts are spam for all the reasons you describe, and I'd add another : he shows no interactivity whatsoever. At least he hasn't that I noticed, my brain has gotten better at ignoring him lately

Occasionally if someone acknowledges his existence he will respond directly to that person.

Its usually just a short post that says something like "*name of person*, I'll kill you in your sleep you f*cker."

[Izzy]

Will: Unless you're in a fantasy world. Which isn't D&D 4E, because those stars, or at least a significant portion thereof, want to eat you.

[Mmy]

<-- notice that the icon indicates that I am taking personal responsibility

AGH! The font! It's HORRIBLE!

Agreeing with Froborr on this. Sans serif fonts have their place, but I'd prefer it if this site stuck with the serif font that Fred's been using all these years.

Okay, the font thing was totally my fault. I personally find sans serif easier to read and so sometimes do my editing in that font. I can (and should) change the font before publishing the post. I'll change things to whatever font/font size the readers would like.

[Will Wildman]

For the name I really love the punny perfection of "Left Behind Slacktivites" but as nobody's suggesting it here I assume that suggestion got shot down ?

A number of people don't like the connotation that we've been abandoned by Fred or that there's any need for animosity between the groups. (And generally speaking, regardless of whether one thinks the RTCs or Those Left Behind are the more morally upstanding group, they really don't mix well.)

[Raj]

1.) I think the banhammer should be wielded as infrequently as Fred wielded it and it should be only after its obvious that particular person is not going to stop and the entire community is generally tired of their shit.

THIS. By now, the Board Administration Team is thoroughly aware of where I stand on the issue of *winces* - the "M" word - but I feel it cannot be emphasized enough. However, wrt CheapEssayWriting, NikeShoes, and other obvious spambots, I have no problem with summary banning and deletion of posts.

As for our visitor Dennis, I say, as do others, ignore him. If his posts become so numerous that they start clogging our Scroll-O-Matics, well, okay, I suppose it wouldn't compromise our principles to delete the excess posts.

2.) I <3 the idea of a blogroll! I've actually been writing various insights I have had as a result of many of my discussions here (e.g. discussions with Kit on such subjects as science fiction and genre classification) without having any plans for these writings. I write as a way of talking to myself. (Yes, I do a lot of actual talking to myself, too.)

3.) In my communications with the Board Administration Team, I have sometimes referred to our new home as The Slackticolony. We can haz possibility?

Will Wildman, I call you out for bluefoot privilege:

[Jason]

@Izzy-

I mean, possibly Freedom Fighter.

I wouldn't ban Freedom Fighter. He obnoxious, but he participates in the discussion and I don't think he purposely trolling. He's basically doing what I was doing when I first started posting here.

I can't think of anyone else that doesn't add some sort of value either.

Markuze is mainly just an annoying pest. There's something about J that just really pisses me off probably to levels that aren't rational, so it might be best that I shut up about him.

[Laima]

Since I don't read dmab's posts, I did not know that, Jason. That makes him sound *worse* then just spam, so I change my vote to deleting his posts outright.

[Ruth (formerly alfgifu) (now alfgifu again over at the other place)]

@ Froborr: yeah, I follow you. I've been going as alfgifu for long enough that I'm beginning to identify with it pretty deeply as well. I switched to Ruth here to be more... real, perhaps? But I've found that in some odd way it alfgifu seems just as real and more familiar, when I'm online.

@ Caravelle and Joey Maloney: I think several people expressed discomfort with "Left Behind" despite the punny goodness, because of its implications about Fred and anyone commenting on the new site.

I'm not sure if 'Slacktivism' is a great idea because there are quite a few other groups out there calling themselves something similar (I saw several when I was hunting down the facebook group) whereas 'Slacktivites' is a name already associated with this blog.

I also like the 'it's more complicated than that' motto.

[hapax]

For clarity's sake, it was actually mmy who noted the technical difficulties of banning dm@bus, although I do concur.

He does monitor the effect of his spam -- if someone responds to them directly, he will frequently re-post, with a specific threat naming that person.

Speaking personally for myself, I'm not in favor of banning ANYONE. (Even the lamentable Scott, although he annoyed me no end -- not that I blame Fred Clark, it wasn't MY space he was stomping all over with muddy boots.)

But I have the luxury of not being personally threatened.

[Will Wildman]

Will Wildman, I call you out for bluefoot privilege:

Hey, I have no problems with the red feet, or avians of any nature! But the slacktivite bird is quite clearly indicated to be the blue-footed booby.

[Jason]

I kind of like Raj's slackticolony.

[Jason]

I don't care between serifs and non-serifs.

but whatever you just changed it to seems kinda tiny.

[Laima]

I had assumed that mmy was using a sans serif font to distinguish her post from Fred's, as another way of making it obvious of the changeover.

But I hate with the fire of 1000 suns reading sans serif fonts on the Internet. It just hurts my brain.

[Izzy]

Jason: Yeah, good point.

Him and J are both in the same group for me: wouldn't have 'em on my blog, don't think they're worth talking to--or pissing on if they were on fire, in all honesty--but ignorable, on the whole. With non-threaded comments, it's annoying to have them come in and have new people start arguing with them unknowingly, because the rest of the discussion is sort of a waste of time, but...y'know, sometimes the party takes a turn for the douche, as they say. I'll live.

[Rebecca]

I'm not a fan of "The Slackers" - part of the "slacktivism" compound word is "activism." "Left Behind Slacktivists" is just too great, but I guess the connotations aren't what we're looking for. "Bluefoots"/"Bluefeet" is nice.

[Jason]

mmy just made it bigger. Looks fine now.

[Laima]

blocks of sans serif text, I should have said. Sans serif for headlines or in small doses is fine.

[sarah]

[[Will: "Shoot for the moon, and even if you miss maybe you'll land in stable near-Earth orbit"?]]

*Snickers* And end up like Jubal Early, perhaps: "Well, here I am."

The saying's just always bugged me.

I'm with Raj on moderation. I don't like the idea of banning anyone--maybe deleting spam, though (CheapArticleWriting, was it?).

My vote is for "Slacktivites."

[Raj]

hapax: Speaking personally for myself, I'm not in favor of banning ANYONE. (Even the lamentable Scott, although he annoyed me no end --

Quoted for THISness. I can't begin to tell you how good it makes me feel to hear a Board member say something like this.

[Kit Whitfield]

I like 'It's more complicated than that' as a motto. Personally I'd favour a name reasonably close to 'Slacktivist', if only to anticipate the question 'So why does this blog have the word 'Slacktivist' in the address?' How about 'Bluefoot Slacktives'?

LIke hapax, I'd rather not ban. If someone gets annoying enough that the whole community wants them gone, maybe, but if that's the case, I'd prefer a community boycott of their posts - ie, they can post if they like, but nobody rewards them with attention.

Of course, there's the thorny question of personal abuse. I don't think anyone minded Fred banning Scott for personally abusing him up hill and down dale, but what if someone gets obsessed with abusing your friendly neighbourhood administration team? Or indeed, anyone else? I think banning in a case of cyber-bullying, effectively, might one day be necessary, but like I said, that's a thorny one.

[Mime Paradox (formerly The Other Ian)]

Second the dislike for the new font, and misgivings on vote-based banning. Neutral on Marzuke--I feel he's easy enough to ignore (Is he still making death threats? If so, then delete).

Name suggestions, some earnest, some less so.

* Haven Unlikely
* Not the Mos Eisley Cantina
* Boobies and Pie
* Super Dimension Fortress Slacktivist
* The Hall
* Café Slacktivite
* Yasumi 休み(Japanese for "rest"--as in "here is where we get some rest from the outside world")

[Jarred]

@Laima: I hadn't thought to compare the quality of my writing to Fred's, but I was more wondering what I could write about that would be of interest to people who come here. Currently my blog posts are mostly about my inner life, my reading list, and occasional forays into art and creativity.

Given the number of bibliophiles we have on this site, I would imagine there's a good chance people would be interested in your reading list. I love art and creativity and would love to see both, as well as an exploration of art and creativity from a philosophical point.

I haven't had much experience with people finding me interesting, and then telling me so. So I'm generally completely mystified about what other people think of me.

I can totally relate to this.

@Joey Maloney (and everyone else who has suggested this), Anyway, I also endorse for a rechristening, something incorporating "Left Behind". It just seems too perfect.

I really really really REALLY hate this idea. While it's certainly cute, the undertones of "Fred abandoned" us that I get off of it really bothers me, and it's not something I'd personally want to see stick with the site or the community indefinitely.

I've been through a lot of online community splits, where someone creates a new BBS, message forum, or diary site because they didn't like how the person in charge ran the one they used to be a member of. I've seen a few of them succeed, but a lot of them fail. One of the most common themes and major contributing factors among those attempts that failed was that those involved with the new project never moved beyond their hatred of the old place they were leaving. That negative relationship with the old site often tainted the new site in ways that eventually contributed to the new site's doom.

I hope people understand what I'm saying. I know there's probably still a lot of hurt over the recent situation, and I don't mean people shouldn't feel hurt or that they should just "get over it." Everyone needs to work on that in their own way and in their own time.

[Kit Whitfield]

Oh, and I like Slackticolony and Cafe Slacktivite as well. The latter seems to have a nice coffee-house feel that reflects the spirit around here.

[Jason]

I feel like J's posts are abusive to anyone who believes in God. That's why I don't have a problem when him going away forever.

Scott was before my time so I don't know what he did or if it is comparable.

[Laima]

ooh, I like that the new font much better! thanks mmy!

Beyond the unfortunate implication of having been exiled, "Left Behind" references, to me, seemed likely to attract people who *like* the books. In my personal experience, people who like the LB books are not really interested in dissecting and discussing the theology or worldview that the books espouse. People I've met who like the books think that people like me deserve to burn in eternal hellfire, period.

I prefer a name that attracts thoughtful people interested in discussion and connecting with others, including those with dissimilar views.

[Jason]

Yeah, the "Left Behind" thing gives connotations of betrayal by Fred that I dislike.

[Jon Maki]

I'd also vote against banning J, if it came to that.

Same here. For one thing, J posts so infrequently that it's largely irrelevant. For another, he has been known, on occasion, to actually contribute something to the discussion.
Also:
There's something about J that just really pisses me off probably to levels that aren't rational, so it might be best that I shut up about him.
*Cough*
Your own suggestion to yourself is worth considering, is all I'm saying...

I'm in favor of community blogging/guest posts/whatever you want to call it. Alternatively, or perhaps concurrently, particularly for the benefit of those who might have something to say, but lack the skills (or confidence in their skills) to do so via an actual blog post, there could be a monthly (or however often) "Spotlight On..." feature in which some member of the community gets some attention in a brief "data sheet" sort of style A list of standard questions that aren't too personal, but can help reveal something we may not have known about each other. (By way of totally random, made-up example: "Wow, I had no idea that Deird was a taxidermist!")
I got nothin' as far as names, though. Sorry.

[Hummingwolf]

"Café Slacktivite" appeals to me very much.

[Jason]

@Laima-

Beyond the unfortunate implication of having been exiled, "Left Behind" references, to me, seemed likely to attract people who *like* the books. In my personal experience, people who like the LB books are not really interested in dissecting and discussing the theology or worldview that the books espouse. People I've met who like the books think that people like me deserve to burn in eternal hellfire, period

In general, fundamentalist Christians are not interested in actually thinking about anything, just robotically following dogma. That's why its impossible to have any sort of discussion with them about anything. If you differ from their particular interpretation of the Bible you are against God and therefore incapable of making any sort of valid point. The more conservative the church is that they come from the more closeminded and insular they become.

[Froborr]

I like Slackticolony!

Hmm... what about Sheep Armistice? Or is that too Good Name for a Band-y?

And yeah, whatever we do, "It's more complicated than that," is definitely my vote for tagline.

Technically, isn't anywhere and everywhere "among the stars?" I mean, even if you're in deep inter-cluster space and the nearest visible object is billions of light-years away, there's still roughly equal numbers of stars in every direction, right?

[Arania]

I like the name Bluefeet because it sounds like "bluestocking" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluestocking I know we're not all women here, but that's why it's bluefeet instead of bluestockings. And if they want, the men can call themselves bluesocks. ;)

I'm not so fond of "Slactivism" as a name because it's kind of a generic "ism" term en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slacktivism as opposed to referring to the community here.

I do indeed agree that the motto should definitely be "It's more complicated than that."

I would love to be on the blogroll if possible. I'm spiderine.livejournal.com and while my posts are often frivolous I occasionally do have relevant things to say about politics, religion, ethics and social structure.

[Laima]

I do like Mime Paradox's suggestion of Café Slacktivite: it sounds warm and friendly and welcoming, as well as conducive to discussions and friendships forming.

[Akedhi]

I'm mostly a lurker, but if anyone's counting, I'd like to place a vote for Slackticolony.

[Mmy]

@Everybody: Is the font/font size of the post better now?

@Everybody: I posted as the TBAT (The Board Administrator Team) because I was in the process of doing something the commentariat had asked the TBAT to do -- deleting spam -- and some of issues that I wanted to refer back to the board came up as I did so. I signed the bottom but it probably isn't noticeable. I'll sign at the top in future so people aren't hearing from a "faceless other."

Re: dm@bus -- there really are two separate issues: one technical and one psychological.

Technical: It is really, really, really, really easy to get around being banned. I could go into an internet cafe right now and without downloading anything to the computer figure out how to get around a ban on that cafe's ip address(es). Let me download a free program and it would be even harder to stop me. Let me download a program that costs less than 70 dollars and it would be yet again harder. And I am not particularly up on the ways that people have developed to do this.

One of the most effective ways of getting rid of people like dm@bus is to have a completely moderated board where every single comment has to be cleared through a moderator before reaching the board. I am really sure that none of you want that. I am totally sure than none of your moderators would be willing to do that.

Psychological: There are people who get really angry when they are blocked by web sites. I was about to list the ways in which they can strike back at the board and realized that I don't want to give someone any ideas -- so let me just say. Not willing to go there.

[Ruby, on the go]

Not in favor of banning J, due to concerns others have stated about popularity contests. I would say only spammers and personal threats be banned/deleted.

Love the idea of guest posts from Slackers' blogs--and love the name Slackers, come to mention it. Makes us seem less "we are just the Left Behind Fred Followers."

[Laima]

Jon Maki: there could be a monthly (or however often) "Spotlight On..." feature in which some member of the community gets some attention in a brief "data sheet" sort of style A list of standard questions that aren't too personal, but can help reveal something we may not have known about each other. (By way of totally random, made-up example: "Wow, I had no idea that Deird was a taxidermist!")

LOVED this idea!!!

[Froborr]

IIRC, Scott was expressly *not* banned for personal attacks on Fred, which he did from pretty much day one. He originally made insightful comments on the Left Behind posts, and personal attacks on Fred in every other post. Then he stopped the insightful comments and expanded to personal attacks on other people as well, and that's when Fred banned him.

Super Dimension Fortress Slacktivist

Love it!

Another proposal: Slacktivity. Or Highly Slacktive Commentariat.

[Hummingwolf]

Could be "The Bluefoot Café and Wild Sheep Refuge," though perhaps there's not enough slack in the name.

And I'm one-hundredthing the vote for the motto "It's more complicated than that."

[Ruby, on the go]

Hmmm...do like Slackticolony, though.

And love the idea of Spotlight On...great way to get to know new AND veteran posters!

[Kit Whitfield]

The more I think about it, the more inspired 'Cafe Slacktivite' sounds. It's welcoming, fun, community-spirited and, best of all, refers back to the old place while sounding cheerfully independent in a way that'd still be sustainable years into the future.

[Froborr]

In general, fundamentalist Christians are not interested in actually thinking about anything, just robotically following dogma. That's why its impossible to have any sort of discussion with them about anything. If you differ from their particular interpretation of the Bible you are against God and therefore incapable of making any sort of valid point. The more conservative the church is that they come from the more closeminded and insular they become.

*screeeeeeeeech* *SLAM* *crash, tinkle, tinkle*

Um, wow, that's a pretty blanket condemnation you have there. I'm pretty sure the existence of former fundamentalist Christians proves you wrong; at some point they must have been fundamentalist Christians who questioned the rightness of their beliefs.

[Jason]

Oooh, I like Slactivity best of all so far!

[Mmy]

Just to make it clear that there is no debate amongst TBAT -- none of us want to ban people.

Hence the circumstance in which we are debating whether we should even delete spam.

Blocking spam, now, that's a different thing.

[Kit Whitfield]

"Puts Mod Hat On" (okay, yes, I'm the technically crappy one who hasn't yet worked out how to do the icon)

The suggestions for content are good, but could we save them for the 'Content' thread just to make it easier for us to keep track?

[Nick]

“I suppose it's technically right, in that if you were launched at sufficient velocity towards the moon and missed, you would drift right on past and eventually end up 'among the stars'”

"Sufficient velocity" is the key constraint. There's about four times difference in the escape velocity for this planet versus for the Sun and thus the solar system. So a conservative plan to reach the moon which somehow missed would either end up in an outer Earth orbit, or as a satellite of the Sun. Vehicles which intentionally leave the solar system (like Voyager) need a bunch more energy, either from their initial launch or stolen using the "slingshot effect" to overcome gravity and not end up coming back.

[The Board Administration Team]

mmy grabs the "Mod Hat" from Kit Whitfield and puts it on

The suggestions for content are good, but could we save them for the 'Content' thread just to make it easier for us to keep track?

Please?

First, because it would make it easier for us to collate your feedback.

Second, because we are working on a really great post about content and it will make us look irrelevant if you come up with all the good ideas first.

[Mmy]

"Gives Mod Hat back to Kit"

I really like Cafe Slacktivite

[Jarred]

@Froborr: *screeeeeeeeech* *SLAM* *crash, tinkle, tinkle*

Um, wow, that's a pretty blanket condemnation you have there. I'm pretty sure the existence of former fundamentalist Christians proves you wrong; at some point they must have been fundamentalist Christians who questioned the rightness of their beliefs.

Thank you a million times over for saying this. I grew up a fundamentalist Christian. I'm about as far away form fundamentalist Christianity as one can get now. I made this transition over years due to a number of events that cause me to think, re-evaluate, and change my mind.

One of my cousin's husbands was (and to the best of my knowledge, basically still is) a fundamentalist Christian. And yet, something (I haven't talked to him to find out what) caused him to rethink his views on homosexuality. He's re-thought them so much that he actually commended me for sharing some of my coming out story online and apologize for any hurt he caused me by his prior insensitivity and self-righteousness. That's quite a change.

I'd also note that even when fundamentalist Christians are resistant to listening to another point of view, there are strong reasons for it beyond "they just don't want to think." I think it's important to remember that to many of them, "considering another point of view" comes perilously close to "abandoning the faith." And while I'm inclined to feel that the right thing for them to do is to do it anyway, I'm not totally unsympathetic to how they feel.

Maybe that's because I've been where they are. I know how big an ordeal "being in peril of abandoning the faith" really is to them.

[Jon Maki]

The suggestions for content are good, but could we save them for the 'Content' thread just to make it easier for us to keep track?

My apologies. I read the post, saw the bit about there being an upcoming thread about content, went away for a while, came back and started reading comments, saw some suggestions for content, and totally forgot that it had been explicitly stated that this wasn't the thread for that.

[Will Wildman]

Nick: Yeah, I don't have anything like the astrogational knowledge to explain what it takes to get out of the solar system, but I first thought 'escape velocity' and then thought 'Wait, I bet it's more complicated than that - Deploy Vague Terminology!'

Four times additional velocity to get away from the Sun? Wow.

On a related note, I had a dream earlier this week in which, at one point, it turned out that the Sun was actually an extremely large pheasant in an incredible disguise. (It is possible I need to stop working twelve-hour shifts.)

---

Any names for this site that involve 'Café' get bonus points; it's quite good for ambience. I'm still iffy on the need to actually incorporate 'slacktivite'/slacktivism into the name itself - we all know how we got here, and I'm not sure why it's especially important for newcomers. We'll probably reference Fred a fair bit, even if we don't/can't crosspost his new works.

[Kit Whitfield]

No sweat, Jon Maki. It's good people are coming up with creative ideas. :-)

[Mmy]

@Jon: What Kit said :)

[Froborr]

Accidentally posted on the wrong thread:

Ooh, the latest thread at Patheos!Slacktivist reminded me: Can we please, please, please, PLEASE for the love of all that is right and good in this world make it a matter of policy that any post consisting entirely of "First!" or the equivalent gets deleted? In fact, any comment where the information content is actually zero (e.g., completely blank comments, comments that consist of the letter "z" repeated forty-seven times, etc.).

[jemand]

I actually don't like the tagline "It's more complicated than that"

I think it sounds nice, for right now, given the confusing nature of this split occurring now...

But there are a lot of things that AREN'T more complicated than that. And the people who insist on that phrasing I've met before, are the kind of people engaging in false equivalence, or who'll sit down at a table to "moderate" between, say, gays and those who believe gays should have no legal rights....

Because to them EVERYTHING is too complicated for ANY conclusion.

But here, I believe, there are a LOT of solid conclusions. A LOT of areas where, in fact, things are NOT complicated, and that is the whole point.

So I really don't think, long term, the tagline "it's more complicated than that" is going to fit well.

"It's more complicated than that" can be used as a cover to refuse to recognize when you're hurting someone, and to change the focus of the conversation back to the privileged group, or whatever.

Perhaps my experience with this phrase is quite out of the norm, so perhaps we should stick with it, but I'm afraid it, like "left behind" is a phrase which sounds nice right now as everything organizational is up in the air and we're trying to figure that out, but we'll soon outgrow and probably come to regret.

[PastyAndUnhealthy]

Popping up to suggest "Bluefoot Slactivism" or "Bluefoot Slactivity" for the board. Or, looking at the suggestions above, maybe "Cafe Bluefoot"?

nthing the support for the blotto.

(Spellcheck knows "blotto".....but not "spellcheck". OK....)

Also, since I skipped the previous thread, thank you very much to the mod team for taking on this project. I've been lurking for quite a long time here, and it's at least as much for the community discussion as Fred's posts.

[Jason]

@Froborr-

Um, wow, that's a pretty blanket condemnation you have there. I'm pretty sure the existence of former fundamentalist Christians proves you wrong; at some point they must have been fundamentalist Christians who questioned the rightness of their beliefs.

You are making my point for me. Generally when they start questioning the rightness of their beliefs they move to more moderate sects of Christianity, or they just get angry at the religious institutions they grew up in and abandon faith altogether.

Fundamentalists are generally taught that is wrong to question. When they start doing so it generally leads to moderation and eventually not being fundamentalist anymore.

[Semperfiona]

I like Froborr's "Highly Slacktive Commentariat". And I Nth the motto "It's more complicated than that."

[Orion]

I vote for "Iguana Cookies" as the name of the community blog. Weird, irreverent, friendly. Captures the spirit nicely.

[Raj]

Seconding or whatevering Kit on "It's more complicated than that" as a motto. Also, I'm flattered that so many people like "Slackticolony".

[Albanaeon]

I definitely like "It's More Complicated Than That." So much so that I would suggest it as the name of the place, particularly since this place is definitely going to get more complicated, if it weren't a bit cumbersome. So my vote is for "Cafe Slactivite"

As for banning, I'm all for as rare as possible. M@b is annoying but I think ignoring him has reduced his posts to one per post, which is manageable. Trying to get rid of him may only bring him on stronger. J, well, while annoying, I don't really like the idea of throwing him out because it seems to reek of becoming more insular. I don't want to send a message of "you can be an atheist, just be quiet about it." I know that is not what happens here, but newer posters? Besides, I rather like the take downs and such. You can't polish a sword without a bit of grit, you know. And obviously if they become threatening or start damaging the site, let's start looking at banning. Personally, I would like to see if it became necessary, a post and comments on whether it is agreed on. For one to keep things transparent so our evil overlords don't get any ideas (;)), but second to reinforce that this is our site and we have say in what goes on here.