Pensées

Many of my more interesting anecdotes regarding religious discussion include my mother. This is because she's one of the only people I've ever been able to disagree with who hasn't become impassioned to the point of verbal abuse. We don't see eye to eye, and we certainly fight, but being a generally kind and open-minded sort of person she does a rather admirable job of listening to my point of view.

About a million years ago (or maybe ten or so, if you want to get technical) I was in college and didn't have a working vehicle. She would drive me to class in the morning and then back home again in the afternoon. My schedule at the time was mostly filled with basic philosophy and comparative religion courses, and we'd chat about whatever was going on in my courses as we made our way up the winding roads of the Texas hill country. It was a Spring semester which meant the bluebonnets were in bloom at the time, and my mother and I had finally reached a kind of understanding that I was no longer a child and she was no longer the-boss-of-me. Those car rides are some of my most cherished memories of our relationship.

One conversation that jumps out, however, as not being all wildflowers and country roads came after on of my philosophy classes had an overview of Pascal's Wager.

I'd read it before and was surprised to find that so had she, although she didn't know what it was called. She'd been exposed to a sort of weird paraphrase for the purpose of evangelism. I sort of brushed past it, calling it silly or stupid. I pointed some of the various flaws and counter-arguments we'd learned, and then dismissed it as a ridiculous thing to believe or argue. My mother got quiet.

Then she got mad.

The conversation exploded in that way that only mother/daughter fights can. She had used the argument when witnessing (proselytizing, for the uninitiated), and anything that gets someone into heaven is a Good Thing, and it makes more sense to hedge your bets, and anyway it's not really hedging your bets it's just making the smart choice! And on and on her defensiveness grew until we weren't really arguing about anything relevant.

To this day I'm not sure she'd remember it, and I really don't know if she even still thinks faith founded on this early example of probability is worthwhile or attractive.

My perspective on and appreciation of Pascal's Pensées has become more nuanced as I've gotten older. I still think the notion of living one's life or basing one's faith on a risk versus gain assessment for the afterlife is silly. It doesn't matter if I'm wrong because I've hedged my bets! How can that possibly be fulfilling, or even sincere?

Still, it's something I think about from time to time--what if I'm wrong? What if I'm wrong about my beliefs, The Bible, God, Jesus, the disciples and apostles, words, stories, psalms, parables, all of it. What then?

It's a healthy notion to reflect on, from time to time, if you're a person of faith.

Last night, driving home and thinking idly about my mother and the fight we had so long ago, it occurred to me that I've reached a point at which it doesn't matter. It's not that it doesn't matter if I'm wrong because I'll be the beneficiary of some cosmic reward if I'm right and the alternative is nothing. The reason it doesn't matter is that my beliefs don't cause me to do, say, or think terrible things.

I have no animosity towards anyone for what God they choose to worship (if any), where they live, how they pray (if they do), or who they love. I don't suspect that any of my neighbors are secretly engaging in sexual relationships I might disapprove of. I don't get angry at the notion that the people I interact with are making choices that may not be right for me or my life. I don't resist or begrudge the progression of scientific inquiry and discovery.

I do not scream or fight or mourn or wail or reject the gifts of truth, beauty, freedom, curiosity, generosity or love. I recognized the aspects of my beliefs that brought me harm, and brought harm to the people around me and to my relationship with them, with myself, and with god.

And then I let them go.

I excised them from my heart and from my life, and realized instantly that they had never really served me at all. These doctrines of suspicion, resentment, ignorance, regression, and control that I'd grown up with had only ever wounded my capacity to love others or myself, and by extension--God.


If I'm wrong about the things I draw from Christianity it doesn't matter - not because I've hedged my bets for an eternal reward, but because the things I draw from it now don't prevent me from embracing peace, compassion, or discovery.

I spent a great deal of my childhood feeling ashamed and afraid of parts of myself, which translated to how I treated others. I was ashamed of my emotions and attraction towards other women. I was afraid that my interest in science was somehow misguided. My faith felt like a burden, weighing me down as I tread water in my life, drowning in all of the shoulds and shouldn'ts and can'ts and don'ts and wrongs and bads and dirtys.

I was unable and eventually unwilling to destroy the parts of myself that years of evangelical indoctrination had convinced me were somehow broken. It took time, and a lot of anger and pain, but I rejected those parts of modern Christianity. In fact, for a time I rejected the whole of Christianity.

Then one day I picked it up again, and brushed it off. I looked at it through the lens of historical context. I looked at it through the lens of paganism. I looked at it through the lens of agnostic deism. I looked at it through the lens of human sexuality. I looked at it through the lens of feminism. I looked at it through the lens of secular humanism, science, and atheism. I looked at it through the lens of Buddhism. I looked at it through the lens of art and storytelling.

I looked at it through the lens of my life.

I looked at it through the lens of Jesus' words.

And I realized, through all of those lenses the particles of fear, resentment, anger, ignorance, defensiveness and malice look so, so small. And I brushed them away.

What remained has only been enriched by such a variety of perspectives.


--cephalopod ____________________________________________________________________________

 

The Slacktiverse is a community blog. Content reflects the individual opinions of the contributors. We welcome disagreement in the comment threads, and invite anyone who wishes to present an alternative interpretation of a situation to write and submit a post.

Comments

[mordicai]

Pascal's Wager is bankrupt. What if...God only lets atheists into heaven? What if...Hinduism is right? What if...it was logically impossible to hedge your bets against an infinite number of possibilities?

[Laima]

That was very moving, cephalopod.

[Ruby]

Our own CallMeBuck, Kirk Cameron, converted to Christianity (from "devout atheism," to hear him tell it) when he asked himself, "What if I'm wrong?"

To which I can only say, "Okay. What if you're still wrong?"

[Ravanan]

I doubt most of us would have much problem at all pointing out most of the fallacies commited by Pascal's Wager. Not really the point here though.

The point, as I understand it, is basically one person's story of how she realized that the point of being Christian was not to get saved, but to do good; thus, she could discard those parts that sought to impede her from seeking good both for herself and others. It's a good lesson that a lot of people sadly haven't and/or don't want to learn. Am I off-base here?

[hidden_urchin]

That was great, cephalopod. I can really identify with it as I went through a similar journey. Thanks.

[Karen, who needs to write a new blog post]

cephalopod, I've had my most spiritual experiences looking at fields of bluebonnets. Also, very moving post.

[Launcifer]

As someone currently undergoing a similar period of examination, albeit in a completely different vein, I'd like to say thank you for this rather interesting post.

[tana]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! You have put into words what I've been feeling for a while.

[Spalanzani]

mordicai: What if...God only lets atheists into heaven?

I believe that's true, which is why I'm an atheist.

Anyway, very nice post, cephalopod (great handle too).

[Deird, who isn't sure how that would work]

What if...God only lets atheists into heaven?

I believe that's true, which is why I'm an atheist.

Seriously?

[Jarred]

I spent a great deal of my childhood feeling ashamed and afraid of parts of myself, which translated to how I treated others. I was ashamed of my emotions and attraction towards other women.

I can identify with this. Somehow, I got the message (I can't recall if anyone explicitly said it or if I just picked it up by inference) that every single sin, no matter how small, had to be confessed and repented of. I recall several nights when I lay in bed constantly alternating between some thought that might be sinful and praying, "Dear Jesus, please forgive me," and hoping I asked for forgiveness for every little thing.

And then when I got older and my sexual feelings started making things known, things got really interesting.

Eventually, for myself, I had to find a new faith home to break that pattern. I'm glad that you were able to maintain your faith in Christ while you broke that cycle of guilt and shame for yourself.

[Cephalopod]

I'm really glad people are able to identify with this experience.

Ruby: Our own CallMeBuck, Kirk Cameron, converted to Christianity (from "devout atheism," to hear him tell it) when he asked himself, "What if I'm wrong?"

To which I can only say, "Okay. What if you're still wrong?"

I think that a lot of people have "What if I'm wrong" moments. The problem is that many of them go on to think "I'd better make sure I do something to save myself, then." I think we'd probably be in a better spot if most people thought "I'd better make sure I'm being kind and compassionate, then."

Karen,wntwanbp: I've had my most spiritual experiences looking at fields of bluebonnets.

Mine was a flock of birds. I was at a really small baptist university feeling completely devoid of any spiritual connection, and terribly isolated. I looked up and some birds were flying overhead, and got the same feeling that I got as a kid when I'd read the bible or in church. That's when I realized that the ways I could connect with god were potentially limitless, and I'd been missing most of them.

Deird, wishtww: I believe that's true, which is why I'm an atheist.

That's interesting, but I'm not sure I follow.

[Spalanzani, who probably should have used an emoticon or something]

Deird: Seriously?

Nah, it was a joke. I mean, I am an atheist, but not for that reason. Sorry for the confusion.

[Deird, who was quoting]

Deird, wishtww: I believe that's true, which is why I'm an atheist.

That's interesting, but I'm not sure I follow.

Err... yes, that's what I was saying.

[Kit Whitfield]

I'm really enjoying reading about everybody's experiences!

It seems graced, too, to be able to separate the intensity of a clash of ideas from the intensity of a family conflict. Having only just had a child I'm just beginning to see how much passion and dismay a parent has to conquer in seeing a child espouse an important idea they don't share, and it seems like parents manage it to a very different degree. This post seems full of humour and forgiveness (two things that seem coessential when it comes to family), which is lovely to see.

[Lonespark]

This post is so beautiful. And so true.

[Lonespark]

RE: Kirk Cameron
When your beliefs make you act like that much of a douchebeck, even if you're right, you're still wrong.

[Jarred]

@Lonespark: RE: Kirk Cameron
When your beliefs make you act like that much of a douchebeck, even if you're right, you're still wrong.

Well said. My old IVCF staffworker used to have a saying (it's probably an IVCF stock quote):

"The Bible's message might offend people. That's not an excuse for me to present it in an offensive manner, however."

It seems like Kirk Cameron and many people like him could stand to learn that lesson.

[Jarred]

Oh, and semi-related to Kirk Cameron, Ray Comfort agreed to appear on The Atheist Experience. I haven't watched it yet myself, but the impressions of my friend Erin suggest he acted pretty much like I expected him to.

[just some lurker]

Joe Bageant died.

[Chuck]

"This is very similar to the suggestion put forward by the Quirmian philosopher Ventre, who said, "Possibly the gods exist, and possibly they do not. So why not believe in them in any case? If it's all true you'll go to a lovely place when you die, and if it isn't then you've lost nothing, right?" When he died he woke up in a circle of gods holding nasty-looking sticks and one of them said, "We're going to show you what we think of Mr Clever Dick in these parts..."

-- (Terry Pratchett, Hogfather)

[kisekileia]

Where on earth does one start when reading Terry Pratchett? I'd start at the beginning of the Discworld series if I hadn't frequently heard that the later books in that series are better.

[Chuck]

If you really feel the need to skip, skip the first two books (The Colour of Magic and The Light Fantastic) and start with Equal Rites, then read them in publication order. It'll take a while. It'll be worth it.

Alternately, pick up pretty much any book (except maybe Lords and Ladies or Thief of Time); most of them stand alone very well.

[Launcifer]

And don't do what I did and start with Night Watch. Much as I enjoyed the others, they pretty much paled in comparison, for the most part.

[Lonespark]

Small Gods stands alone very well. I haven't ventured beyond it, yet.

[Cephalopod]

Deird: HA! Sorry. It was a really long day for me, Yesterday.

Kisekileia: The best thing to do is typically pick a group that sounds interesting: Witches, Watch, Wizards, or Death. This is a pretty good chart for starting out. I read the watch books first (although the first discworld novel I ever read was reaperman, and it still remains my favorite). The watch is my favorite group of characters, personally, so I tend to enjoy their stories a bit more. The Witches would be my second favorite. And while Death is technically one of my favorite characters, his novels don't feature him enough - aside from Reaperman.

Jarred: It was hilarious! Go watch it!

Lonespark : I honestly don't think that you can be right if you're that much of a douchebag. I think relishing the suffering of others is necessarily the wrong way to experience life regardless of specific religious practice. That's one of the few things I believe strongly. I acknowledge the possibility of just about anything in any system of belief being potentially true, but I don't accept the notion that it's potentially true that anyone deserves to suffer for any reason.

[Flying Squid with Goggles]

"Still, it's something I think about from time to time--what if I'm wrong? What if I'm wrong about my beliefs, The Bible, God, Jesus, the disciples and apostles, words, stories, psalms, parables, all of it. What then?

It's a healthy notion to reflect on, from time to time, if you're a person of faith. "

It's also a healthy notion to reflect on from time to time if you're one of those of us without faith.

Nice post, well written.

Re: Pratchett - I too started with Night Watch, and have had trouble finding anything as good. Maybe starting with Pyramids, Mort, Small Gods or Guards! Guards! would be better.

[Jarred]

I loved "Small Gods," and it was the first Discworld novel I read. I'd also promote "The Wee Free Men," "A Hat Full of Sky," (yes, I realize these books are actually intended for a younger audience, but they were my first introduction to Granny Weatherwax) and "The Monstrous Regiment."

As for "Lord and Ladies," I actually read this one before picking up either of the two books that come before it and didn't feel the story suffered much from reading it out of sequence. Sure, I missed a few points that relied on the backstory, but the main plot still worked

[Jarred]

Ack, sorry for the double post. If TBAT could delete the first one, I'd greatly appreciate it. Just tell me where to send the cookies.

[Will Wildman]

The Tiffany Aching quartet (Wee Free Men, Hat Full of Sky, Wintersmith, I Shall Wear Midnight) is one of those excellent examples that 'YA is not worse than regular A'. Unquestionably they are more accessible than something like Small Gods (which also gets my recommendation on grounds of being a hilarious, inspiring, just-about-universally* beloved standalone novel) but they're still funny and insightful and powerfully moving. The climactic sequences of Wee Free Men are in the relatively short list of things that make me cry with joy every time.

Guards! Guards! is the first of the guards books (shocker), and I've often heard people remark that it marks the point where the series clearly started to evolve away from its hurriance of puns and toward more substantial and unfluffy themes. Which is saying something, given that the third book (Equal Rites) is about enforced gender roles in society and the fourth book (Mort) is about becoming Death.

So, not that there aren't enough recommendations already, but I'd say any of Mort, Guards! Guards!, or Small Gods would be an excellent starting point.

*Sir Terry mentioned once that after the publication of Small Gods, he got a vast quantity of mail that varied on two basic themes: either "Thank you for writing such a wonderful book to display the goodness of Christianity" or "Thank you for writing such a brilliant takedown and sticking it to the Christians". This perhaps says more about Earth society than we would like it to.

[Jason]

I probably ought not to share this, but....

I keep misreading the title of this thread as "Penises"

[Launcifer]

Jason: if it makes you feel any better, you're not alone.

[Jarred]

Jason's comment reminded me (please don't read too much into that), tomorrow is the fifteenth anniversary of the day I came out to myself and my best friend at the time, Merion.

Yes, I came out on April Fool's Day. What can I say? I have a weird sense of timing. ;)

[Matt McIrvin]

Many of the Discworld books are loosely organized into sub-series about particular characters. There are the Rincewind books (starting with The Color of Magic/The Light Fantastic, which is really a two-part novel), the Vimes/Guards books (starting with Guards! Guards!), the Death books (starting with Mort), and the Witches books (starting to some extent with Equal Rites and more fully with Wyrd Sisters). And then there's Tiffany Aching, and the newer ones about Moist von Lipwig (starting with Going Postal).

The earliest Discworld books have a somewhat different flavor from the later ones; they progressed from broad parody toward keen satire, though there's a bit of the latter even at the beginning. I don't dis-recommend the early Rincewind books, but they're not entirely characteristic of the series as a whole.

Small Gods is unusual in that it's relatively stand-alone, so it's accessible for that reason.

[Jarred]

*Sir Terry mentioned once that after the publication of Small Gods, he got a vast quantity of mail that varied on two basic themes: either "Thank you for writing such a wonderful book to display the goodness of Christianity" or "Thank you for writing such a brilliant takedown and sticking it to the Christians". This perhaps says more about Earth society than we would like it to.

Interestingly, I did get a strong sense of religious commentary that's applicable to our world when reading Small Gods, but I felt that Sir Terry neither praised nor bashed Christians. Instead, I felt it was a healthy criticism of the dangers of institutionalism and how it can overpower the beautiful aspects of any religion.

And I'll have to acquire copies of books three and four of the Tiffany Aching quartet. I was aware there was a third book, but the fourth is news to me. Thanks for fixing that. ;)

[Nick Kiddle]

//I keep misreading the title of this thread as "Penises"//

Oh good, it's not just me.

[Froborr]

Small Gods is where I started; I've since read all of them. I'd say the best starting points are probably Small Gods, Guards! Guards!, Wyrd Sisters, or Wee Free Men, depending on whether you want religious satire, parody-police procedural, parody-Shakespeare, or fantasy-bildungsroman-fairy tale.

I am, I think, somewhat unusual in that the Witches are my favorite sub-series, because they tend to be the ones that play around with narrative and the concept of story. Second-favorite is Death, because I love Death, I love Susan, and I love the big questions of what it is to be human.

[Jarred]

@Froborr: I am, I think, somewhat unusual in that the Witches are my favorite sub-series, because they tend to be the ones that play around with narrative and the concept of story. Second-favorite is Death, because I love Death, I love Susan, and I love the big questions of what it is to be human.

Among many of my witch friends, the Witches are the most beloved series simply because many of the things that make it into those books cause us to suspect that the author is actually spying on our covens. ;)

[Cephalopod]

The fact that people are misreading the title that way makes my inner 12 year old self giggle madly. It wasn't intentional, but if it makes people smile I'm happy with that!

I'm also really stoked that this became a conversation about discworld.

Regarding small gods, I try to read an appropriately themed discworld novel when I travel so I read that one while visiting in-laws in Israel. That's not a comment on any particular religion, just the fact that the stuff is laying around all over the place there. You can't swing a cat without hitting a holy man.

Not that I advocate the abuse of cats. Or holy men.

[Will Wildman]

I think Wyrd Sisters is probably the Discworld book I like least, by a wide margin. That may purely be a quirk of tastes. I adore the rest of the witches' series.

And I'll have to acquire copies of books three and four of the Tiffany Aching quartet. I was aware there was a third book, but the fourth is news to me. Thanks for fixing that. ;)

Slight warning - while the first three follow pretty closely on each other's heels, I Shall Wear Midnight does a minor timeskip (including some important character developments), possibly as a result of Sir Terry deciding that he was only going to write four Tiffany Aching books instead of five. If I had known that when I started reading, I might have felt less like the rug had been pulled out from under me. Once I regained my footing, of course, it was typically magnificent.

And I would agree that I felt Small Gods was more an exploration and examination of concepts than it was a tract for/against anything. Sort of the anti-Left-Behind.

Also, Jarred, happy anniversary.

(I'm getting this notion of a counter-April-Fool's tradition, whereby one day per year would be set aside as a day for people to calmly reveal things that others might not normally believe - a day when people are expected to make grand revelations and everyone else is expected to treat it as entirely normal. "Could you pass the salt?" "You were adopted from goblins." "...Are goblins still allowed salt?")

[Jarred]

@Will: Thanks. As a celebration, I'm planning to do a small series of blog posts about the experience and the journey since. I posted the first one today. I think I have at least two other posts on the subject running around my head.

[Lonespark]

That's a grand idea, Will.

[Laima]

I have to jump in and recommend "The Thief of Time", which is one of my very favorites of the Discworld series. I love Lu-Tze, Lobsang, Soto, Wen, Igor, Lady LeJean, and of course Susan. All that, and a meditation on the nature of time, and what it means to be human, gobs of chocolate, and perfect moments. The Auditors are also a very useful concept, although I don't like them.

Small Gods rocked my world, and I've recommended it to friends that are Christians, but also those who are not. Beyond the religious aspects, I think it does a masterful job of depicting authoritarianism, and how it warps everyone it touches. My brother, a devout Catholic, read it and enjoyed it. I refrained from telling him I think Vorbis and our mother are twins who were separated at birth.

I also tremendously love Nightwatch, Monstrous Regiment, The Truth, and Feet of Clay. Jingo has many useful things to say about war, patriotism and bigotry, and the performance of gender, but I don't find myself rereading it often, as I do with the others I've mentioned. The Fifth Elephant has some moments, and I have reread it several times.

I bought the first two Tiffany Aching books for my nieces, read them before sending them on, and fell in love with them, especially the first one. I keep forgetting to buy them for myself, and to read the rest of the series.

[kisekileia]

A host of recommendations, then! Looking at what everyone has said plus the chart, I'll probably check out Small Gods, Equal Rites, and/or Guards! Guards!

[kisekileia]

And thank you, everyone, for the suggestions.

[Izzy]

I like the Death series best myself, followed by Witches. (Thief of Time and Reaper Man are probably tied for my favorites.) The Guards books are awesome too, but for some reason the weirder cosmic stuff catches my mind a little more. Tiffany and Susan are some of my favorite female characters, so that helps too.

V ernyyl yvxrq gur ebznapr cybg erfbyhgvba va V Funyy Jrne Zvqavtug, gbb: lnl, fbzr erpbtavgvba gung gur thl lbh yvxrq ng guvegrra vf abg arprffnevyl gur thl lbh'yy raq hc jvgu. Bs pbhefr, va zl rkcrevrapr, arvgure vf gur thl lbh yvxr ng fvkgrra--be gjragl-fvk--ohg sbe aneengvir unccl raqvat checbfrf, V'z zber guna jvyyvat gb ohl vg.

Fhfna'f ebznapr jnf uneqre sbe zr. V *yvxr* Ybofnat naq nyy, ohg...ur'f fvkgrra. Fur'f fbzrjurer va ure gjragvrf. Arvgure V abe nal bgure jbzna V xabj jbhyq qngr n fvkgrra-lrne-byq obl: lrnu, lrnu, rzbgvbany znghevgl vf eryngvir, ohg, hz, gurve snprf nera'g shyyl sbezrq lrg, zbfg bs gur gvzr. Yrg nybar bgure ovgf. V jnyx guebhtu Uneineq Lneq gb trg gb jbex, naq gur serfuzra *gurer* ybbx nobhg gra--pnaabg vzntvar n thl guerr lrnef lbhatre orvat frkhnyyl nggenpgvir gb na nqhyg jbzna.

V trarenyyl gel gb nffhzr gung gur Choregl Snvel uvg rneyl naq bsgra va Ybofnat'f pnfr, ohg fgvyy, gur fhfcrafvba bs qvforyvrs engure guhqf gurer.

[Thalia]

I'm a Carrot/Angua shipper, myself, with Vimes and Vetinari being my favorites, so I guess I'm a Watch-er.

I didn't really care for Pyramids, but anything else with religion is my favorite... and also Death.

My Dear BoyFriend doesn't care about them at all, and I am just boggled. He doesn't think much of "The Last Unicorn" either. I'm telling you, he's an alien.

[Laima]

@Izzy, I tend to forget about the age difference between Susan and Lobsang, which as you said, is kind of oogy.

On the other hand, Ybofnat gnxrf bire sbe uvf zbgure, Gvzr, fb znlor ur zngherf rzbgvbanyyl ba n qvssrerag gvzryvar guna n erthyne 16-lrne-byq obl pbhyq ubcr gb.

For me personally, much as I love Pratchett, his romances leave me cold. I don't read many romance novels anymore, but if a science-fiction or fantasy novel includes romantic entanglements that are done well, I enjoy that. Pratchett's take on supposedly-healthy romantic relationships does not ring true to me. Stuff with Sam Vimes and his wife especially has me grinding my teeth, but neither do I enjoy Carrot and Angua, nor Moist and his girlfriend.

[Izzy]

Laima: Heh. The emotions...do not concern me, so much. ;) But yeah. One can always hope that Metaphysics provides something, or that Lobsang is sixteen-as-played-by-Jared-Leto, not sixteen-as-played-by-actual-teenage-boy.

I don't find Pratchett's romantic relationships one way or the other, by and large--some of the stuff in Vimes's marriage seems alien to me, but I figured that was a product of the generation and the fact that, well, I am profoundly uninterested in doing that particular dance myself.

[Jason]

As a celebration, I'm planning to do a small series of blog posts about the experience and the journey since. I posted the first one today. I think I have at least two other posts on the subject running around my head.

That sounds very interesting. I shall definitely read those.