Loneliness

When I was hospitalized for suicidal depression, the therapists and doctors asked us to focus on which of our basic needs were and weren't being met. One area of need that was discussed, but not in-depth, was spirituality. In my experience, therapists and counselors are not (and I would add should not be) the best spiritual advisers. This is partly because they receive little training in religious psychology and spirituality. A counselor will generally focus on emotional and cognitive problems, and will leave most complex matters of spirituality to the client and his or her spiritual adviser. A spiritual adviser, such as a minister, priest, rabbi or imam, has studied a specific tradition of spirituality and can impart his or her own personal experience with spirituality. When I was hospitalized, I benefited greatly from the chaplains provided by the hospital. While I lack any particular religious affiliation, they were still able to explain their own experiences and to give me advice on finding my spiritual feet.

However, many people experiencing depression either lack a spiritual adviser or have one who is ill-suited to deal with depression. While much of the stigma of mental illness has gone away, and many spiritual advisers understand that mental illness and suicidal tendencies should be treated as illnesses and not as sins, they may lack the training to deal with depression and other mental illnesses head-on.

This is problematic, I believe, in part because depression isolates a person not just from other people, but from the divine. The despair that comes with depression takes away hope in a better existence, in a compassionate god(s), in a sense of something greater than the self (at least a good something, it's easy to believe in an oppressive force far greater than the suffering person), and awe at the splendor of the universe.

I lacked any spiritual affiliation--indeed, like PZ Myers. I tended to scorn the idea of spirituality. Perhaps I had always had a general sense of the connectedness and awe that seems to be the root of spiritual understanding. That sense was pulled out from under me like a rug. I have no idea if this is true of other atheists and agnostics who struggle with depression, I do not claim that this is their experience, but I would be surprised if I were alone in this.

One aspect of my depression is that I experience extreme loneliness quite frequently, sometimes even if I'm with other people. Because loneliness is such a significant part of my life, I think it needs to be incorporated into my sense of spirituality. I believe such incorporation is both possible and necessary.

Loneliness is a desire for connection; connection with others, with self, and with the divine. I have trouble in establishing two of those connections: with others and with the divine. I find it difficult to ask people to do stuff with me; often when I'm lonely I don't feel like being around other people in a strange and harmful paradox that feeds upon itself. Sometimes I cannot break free of it even by being around other people. I do not know if there is a solution to this.

Of course, being around some people makes the loneliness worse because I cannot or have not admitted to them that I am depressed. I don't feel comfortable explaining to them that I experience this disease; I know many of them would not know how to react and might respond in ways that would be (unintentionally) hurtful. It is not easy for me to let new people into this part of my life, a feeling which adds to my loneliness.

Connecting with my self or soul is easier for me. I am well-practiced in meditation, introspection, and self-reflection. But sometimes I need to remember my roots and delve back into my core. Since that core includes the depression I experience, this is not always a pleasant process.

Connecting with the divine is the most elusive of all. I am not even sure I recognize something as divine, let alone know how to connect to it. But I do feel a sense of something beyond me and beyond other individual people that needs connecting to. Maybe it's humanity en masse, maybe it's the Universe, maybe it is God; I don't know. Perhaps I should seek this divine Otherness in prayer, but I find it difficult to pray most of the time, although there are times when I am caught up with the urge to pray. Meditation is another way that some people connect to the outside, but for me meditation is an inward process, connecting me with my inner self and core, not with the outside.

And so I feel a longing to connect with something I cannot understand, define, or even recognize. This loneliness may be the worst of all, because I do not know where to look. Perhaps depression simply pulled the scales from my eyes and showed me the cold inhumanity of the universe and whatever divinity may be found there, but I doubt this. Depression does not give the sufferer a realistic depiction of the self or others, why should it give a realistic account of the divine? Part of recovery from depression, I believe, is seeking to find again a sense of awe and joy in the wonders of the universe, a sense of connection to others, and maybe even a sense of connection to the divine, if such a thing exists.

--Leum
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Comments

[renee altson]

Thanks for this - you have fabulous insights and you are really talking about so many of us who suffer with that same loneliness and the same conundrum of what exists and the people that may or may not follow it.

I found some roots in Unitarian Universalism. They equally honor all traditions/face, and are incredibly tolerant of people, no matter where they are. At my particular fellowship, at least 65% of the people are atheists.

Our leader is an amazing, amazing person who is brilliant in many ways, and also involved in psycho-spiritual therapy. I'm lucky to have a "parson" (person) who gets it. :)

Anyway, didn't want to preach, just wanted to suggest an option and let you know of my discovery and experience.

[Ms. Greyduck]

This was lovely. Thanks.
I'm a pretty agnostic person who is attached to a liberal United Church of Christ church. The way I figure it, I can be a member because I think Jesus was a pretty cool guy, and even if I'm unsure about everything else, I at least have a community to ask questions of. It's been a very important community for me. So I guess I'm saying that you might like a faith community as a forum to ask questions. Thanks again for being so brave, this isn't an easy topic to discuss.

[Choir of Shades]

Wow, dmabus is back and more assholish than ever. Or at least more assholish than I recall him. And possibly more coherent than usual as well, but that's easier than finding a narcissist in a convention for RTC megachurch pastors.

[tana]

Thank you for sharing your experience. I agree with you on all counts. Thank you for putting into words the struggles I've faced.

[renniejoy]

{{{{{Leum}}}}}

[Thalia]

@TBAT please delete dmabius' comment. I am very unhappy with this aggressive tone this time.

[The Board Administration Team]

Thalia - Done

[Nev]

Thank you for this wonderful post. You describe the loneliness and isolation of depression so well.

The despair that comes with depression takes away hope in a better existence...

During my worst depressive spells I've felt overwhelmed with the feeling that I was irredeemably tainted -- not a good atom in me. Eventually I came to believe otherwise, but my reasons then don't often feel convincing now. I've just got to hold on and acknowledge that, like you said, "depression does not give the sufferer a realistic depiction of the self or others, why should it give a realistic account of the divine?" I have to trust that my senses and reasoning are unreliable to a degree, and there is a better truth, even if it seems impossible to believe.

I'm still an atheist, but I privately think of this continual struggle as faith of a sort.

[Vashti]

Having struggled with depression myself on and off since childhood, I can sympathize. I tell people for me it's f__ing boring. 1)I'm totally self-absorbed worrying about myself and my mental state and 2)the same tapes keep playing in my head ad nauseum. Yes, I have been in situations where I realize I'm having trouble just speaking to someone.
I can recommend a book by a Dr. Ilardi from the University of Kansas. He has a number of non-pharmaceutical recommendations that can help.
Work at not letting yourself get isolated
Best wishes

[Ripheus]

As someone who was suicidally depressed a few years ago, this was an interesting post for me to read. I'm an atheist, and like you I tended to scorn spirituality (I still sometimes do, but I'm ashamed of that and I try to be fairer). I remember feeling that lack of hope in anything better you described, the knowledge that as bad as things were, this was it, there was no heaven or God or anything of that sort to make it better, and it made me miserable. Part of the reason was that I was a very recent atheist coming from a very devout, borderline-RTC background, and it was hard for me to come to terms with the implications of my new beliefs. Looking back it's hard to remember exactly what I was thinking or how I reconciled things, but it was probably realizing on an emotional level that I had value apart from my relation to God, and that I owed it to myself to make things better here and now. I'm not sure if this all makes sense, and I know I must be rambling something fierce, but thanks for posting your story, I really connected with it.

[Andrew Glasgow]

I have to admit I'm a little confused, if you don't have any spiritual beliefs to begin with, how is trying to form spiritual beliefs that you believe to be untrue supposed to help your depression?

[Nenya]

Leum, thank you so much for this. The spiritual side of things hasn't been as much of an issue for me--I think that whether or not they were connected, my spiritual angst wasn't associated in my head with my depression, even though I know I have had both at the same time. (I've ended up an agnostic fairly content with her agnosticism--it's such a relief to be able to say, "I really don't know. And I don't think anyone else does either. Okay, well, then, here we are, let's live life as we can.") But your post really describes my experience of depression well, even so. Thank you.

Vashti says:
I tell people for me it's f__ing boring. 1)I'm totally self-absorbed worrying about myself and my mental state and 2)the same tapes keep playing in my head ad nauseum. Yes, I have been in situations where I realize I'm having trouble just speaking to someone.

Oh, wow. I may have to copy this and email it to my girlfriend (who's also been depressed but it's hitting me more these days). So fscking boring is right!!

Andrew Glasgow, one can certainly be in a position where one doesn't really feel that the religions one has been presented with are useful, or that one has not really had personal communication with the divine, and also feel that one wishes one did, or that one does feel some vague sense of...Something Out There, or Universal Awesome Amazingness, or, or something. It might not be as specific as concrete spiritual beliefs, but it can still be a thing that when it's gone, you miss it. Like a light in a room down the hall has gone out, that you were using to read a novel by, perhaps. It's not "believing in what you believe is untrue", but rather a sense of losing something undefinable. At least, that's how it has been for me.

[Literata]

{{Leum and other people feeling depressed or isolated}}

Actually, I have a wacky theory that one of the best ways to describe depression is a complete lack of sense of connection, especially to the divine/deep meaning of the universe/etc. One of the things some psychoactive drugs do, in certain settings, is give people a sense of a deep spiritual experience or connection to the divine or to the oneness of all things. Entheogens, psychoactive drugs that do this, have been used by cultures for thousands of years for this and related purposes. Current research is also suggesting that there may be some uses for entheogens in treating depression. (Do not use this as the basis for any experiments on yourself!) If one of the ways entheogens help depression is by restoring something lost, that suggests to me that the sense of oneness/meaningfulness/connection to the divine/however you experience it may be one of the things that's "missing" in acute depression.

I certainly know that my experiences with depression include feelings of disconnection and possibly a feeling of having been deserted by the divine. Leum, thanks for starting this fascinating conversation.

[Amaryllis]

Leum - thanks for posting this. It gives me much to think over.

In the meantime, I'm so glad you're still with us, and I hope your recovery continues to go well, and that you find the connections you seek.

[Ross]

Part of recovery from depression, I believe, is seeking to find again a sense of awe and joy in the wonders of the universe, a sense of connection to others, and maybe even a sense of connection to the divine, if such a thing exists.

I didn't much care for 'Laws of Illusion', but this line reminded me a lot of the refrain from 'Bring on the Wonder': Bring on the wonder Bring on the song I pushed you down deep in my soul for too long.

[Choir of Shades]

Having never had an experience with the divine, and accepting that there was no "God" (I'm an anti-theist agnostic, aka what most people just out of Christianity think of when they say they are atheists) came at a very young age for me, so it never really figured into my depression. I will say that a loss of connection did figure into my depression. My more recent bout was caused by a lack of direction in my life under increasing pressure to have that direction decided, and so I felt...adrift; and my first bout was around when half my family said I would be better off dead (this wasn't the depression talking, they actually expressed this opinion to me, and one individual said he was willing/wanted to enact it himself; with the exception of that one individual, who has isolated himself from the rest of the family so he can be bigoted against myself and his own son off on his own, most of my relatives have...mellowed). My first bout of depression was hardly boring (fearing for your life usually isn't), but my second bout...yeah it was very boring.

[Andrew]

Much sympathy. So hard to walk the line so as to have an honest and accurate (and yet somehow HELPFUL) perspective on oneself, when that self is so marked by depression. I don't see depression as a merely cosmetic problem - to some extent it is destructive to our not merely *feeling* ok and worthwhile, but actually *being* okay and worthwhile.

Another line that is hard to walk is captured in the question, "How is trying to form spiritual beliefs that you believe to be untrue supposed to help your depression?" That's a great question. It's not true that you can turn to spiritual beliefs to help yourself out of depression. Their truth or falsehood is actually secondary. There are no simple ways to help oneself out of depression - you need help. The critical question embedded in our spiritual searches is, "Is there anyone out there, or in here, who can help me?" If there was a God who was reaching out to us in the people and resources (and, yes, DRUGS) outside of us, and also alive and trying to heal what is broken inside of us, that has huge implications for the state of our hope in living with depression.

We can expect it to be a hard line to walk, and we can expect ourselves to stumble, because a sincere inquiry into the truth is something people generally find depressing, even when they're not clinically depressed! The possibility of the existence of God is something with enormous hopeful power. However, to reflect on the hiddenness of God, which may mean the nonexistence of God, creates whole new landscapes of potential pain. Spiritual growth is interwoven with all kinds of complicated phenomena (like organized religion) that are often no fun to engage with. I get very tired of hearing about the escapism of religious people. We all struggle with escapism. There is nothing intrinsically escapist about spiritual journeys. For some of us, we lack a proper introduction to hard and cold realities of life until we meet God. (Depression claims, loudly, to introduce us to the hard and cold realities of life, but it lies.)

You're right, depression teaches us that our intuitive sense of the presence OR absence of God is not trustworthy. Having damaged and distorted senses does not in any disqualify you from the right and need to search, however. The good news is that a search for God is a dance with two participants. And a great dancer (as God is) can compensate brilliantly for the awkwardness of her partner.

[Lila]

Wow, so much of this sounds familiar...in my case, add that I've lost several friends in the past 2 years (three murdered, two died from cardiac problems). I can no longer convince myself that there's always plenty of time to get back together with friends who don't have time for me now.

[Literata]

Andrew: "...depression teaches us that our intuitive sense of the presence OR absence of God is not trustworthy." I would argue that it teaches us that sense is not infallible. Saying it's not "trustworthy" implies the sense might be wholly useless; I think that sense still has value, as you seem to argue in the rest of your statement.

"And a great dancer (as God is) can compensate brilliantly for the awkwardness of her partner."
Bravo!

[Rodeobob]

I'm an atheist, and I have depression problems. A lot of this post resonates.

"How is trying to form spiritual beliefs that you believe to be untrue supposed to help your depression?"

It's a function of Aristotle's value ethics: when you walk among the giant Redwood forests, it's quite appropriate to feel a sense of awe and wonder. It's also appropriate to feel a sense of gratitude at being able to witness such a thing. But gratitude to who? Aristotle's position was that it didn't matter who you felt gratitude to; what was important was that you, as a functional human being, are capable of feeling gratitude when appropriate.

One facet of depression is a limited emotional range, a difficulty in experiencing emotions outside the range of "I feel terrible" to "I feel numb". Cultivating a sense of awe & wonder temporarily moves the person outside of that narrow emotional range. It prevents the depressed person from normalizing the depressed state, and gives them a tool for positive emotional stimulus.

Something that has helped me in the past is Cognative Behavioral Therapy, which argues that motivation and rationale follow action instead of preceeding it. The CBT approach, whether it's exercise or writing or painting or whatever, is to do first, even if you don't feel like it, and let motivation follow after. When we're talking about a depressed emotive state, having a tool to feel differently and using it, is more important than whether or not the foundation for that tool is rational or not. Once you're out of the depressed state, then you can address what "spirtuality" means, and whether it means a belief in a higher power, a creator, or just an ongoing sense that underneath it all, the universe really is an awesome place.

[MadGastronomer]

It's not true that you can turn to spiritual beliefs to help yourself out of depression.

Except, of course, that people do. So you might want to watch your general-second-person-plurals there, bub.

[Mink]

Rodeobob: CBT has been of especial interest to me lately because it appears to be the one technique that I have tried over the years that seems to *work* for me.

[Mmy]

Just received an email from Pius Thicknesse. He waves HI to everyone.

His dad's condition has stabilized somewhat but he still needs help with such as shopping. Pius is fully in the PhD grind right now so between his dad and his research he doesn't have a lot of time to spare on the net.

[Albanaeon]

A hard post for me right now, being in the middle of some pretty massive hormonal imbalances. Hate to say it, but in someways I preferred being depressed. At least then, I knew what to expect. I hate wondering if the next medication will get things right, get things worse, or do nothing while I swing from near euphoria to near despair in minutes. How can you define "you" if "you" swifts so quickly?

[David Foster Wallace, "Infinite Jest", Page 73]

From a very good book:

“When people call it that I always get pissed off because I think depression sounds like you just get really sad, you get quiet and melancholy and just like sit quietly by the window sighing or just lying around. A state of not caring about anything. A kind of blue kind of peaceful state… Well this”—she gestured at herself—“isn’t a state. This is a feeling. I feel it all over. In my arms and legs. My head, throat, butt. In my stomach. It’s all over everywhere. I don’t know what I could call it. It’s like I can’t get enough outside it to call it anything. It’s like horror more than sadness. It’s more like horror. It’s like something horrible is about to happen, the most horrible thing you can imagine—no, worse than you can imagine because there’s a feeling that there’s something you have to do right away to stop it but you don’t know what it is you have to do, and then it’s happening, too, the whole horrible time, it’s about to happen and also it’s happening, all at the same time.”

[Leum]

Thanks everyone for the comments! I'm going to respond to some comments individually, but please don't be offended if yours isn't one of them.

Ms. Grayduck: I'm a pretty agnostic person who is attached to a liberal United Church of Christ church. The way I figure it, I can be a member because I think Jesus was a pretty cool guy, and even if I'm unsure about everything else, I at least have a community to ask questions of. It's been a very important community for me. So I guess I'm saying that you might like a faith community as a forum to ask questions. Thanks again for being so brave, this isn't an easy topic to discuss.

I would like to find a faith community like that, and preferably one with a person willing to counsel me individually. Does anyone have suggestions on how to approach at pastor/priest/rabbi of a congregation you're not officially involved with for counseling? I've been attending services at the synagogue irregularly and really like the rabbi, but not sure how to (or if I should) approach him.

vashti: Having struggled with depression myself on and off since childhood, I can sympathize. I tell people for me it's f__ing boring. 1)I'm totally self-absorbed worrying about myself and my mental state and 2)the same tapes keep playing in my head ad nauseum. Yes, I have been in situations where I realize I'm having trouble just speaking to someone.

I found the same thing, tapes endlessly replay in the head so much that I could tell I was going to go into a crisis several minutes before I did just based on what thoughts I was thinking at the time.

ripheus: I remember feeling that lack of hope in anything better you described, the knowledge that as bad as things were, this was it, there was no heaven or God or anything of that sort to make it better, and it made me miserable.... but it was probably realizing on an emotional level that I had value apart from my relation to God, and that I owed it to myself to make things better here and now.

Finding value is an interesting one. It seems like it should be possible to feel value from inside and from peers, but I agree with the chaplain I talked to who said that self and others are all fallible. It would be nice to have Something Else out there, but I doubt there is. Hence my dilemma.

@Andrew (whose comment was too long and too full of gems to be posted except in full and that would take up too much space): I agree that the idea of Someone greater than the self there to help and support is comforting. But I don't feel any sense of that Someone. I've never had a divine experience, so it's hard to know how to reach out to something I'm not even sure exists. I don't feel like God's dancing with me, let alone making up for my missteps.

[Mink]

mmy: Thank you for passing that on from Pius! I'm glad things are pretty stable for him now, and I do hope he can finish his PhD.

[Froborr]

Finding value is an interesting one. It seems like it should be possible to feel value from inside and from peers, but I agree with the chaplain I talked to who said that self and others are all fallible. It would be nice to have Something Else out there, but I doubt there is. Hence my dilemma.

For me, this is where relativism came in handy. Nothing has a value; it has a value to me, a value to you, a value to Alice, a value to Bob, and so forth. (Any of those might be zero, of course.) Only Alice can truly know its value to Alice, and its value to Alice has no necessary bearing on its value to Bob. It doesn't matter that all these people are fallible, because there are *no wrong answers* to the question, "What is the value of this?"*

Now, I said no *necessary* bearing. It is still common for Bob to value something more because it matters to Alice, and Alice matters to Bob. So of course the values of others can impact your values.

But ultimately, if you want to feel that you are valuable, you need to find your value to yourself. That usually requires getting a sense that others value you, and maybe a religion that talks about a supreme being that values you is what you, personally, need to get that, but it's still only the first step.

*There are no right answers, either, because unless you add "to ____" to the end of it, it's a meaningless question.

[Jason]

I miss Pius. )-:

[MaryKaye]

In my own faith tradition there are a lot of tools of spirituality that are not beliefs but techniques. I have known atheist Wiccans who did not believe in anything specifically supernatural, but who found meaning and benefit in celebrating the cycles of the year and of human lifetimes. There's a body of techniques built up that various people have found useful in making those connections--in feeling in tune with the cycles of the natural world rather than alienated from them, and in accepting and working with the cycles of one's own life rather than being blindsided by them or constantly trying to deny them.

I regard the idea that spirituality is mainly a belief as a dangerous misconception pushed by some brands of organized religion. I've seen firsthand that some people benefit from techniques of spirituality--from meditation, dance, contemplation, vision quests, divination, energy raising, chanting, etc.-- independent of their beliefs about the gods or the supernatural.

For people interested in reading about this I would recommend Starhawk's _Truth or Dare_. Her earlier books are very feminist-Wicca-centric and if you don't share her beliefs can be alienating, but I feel that in this one she's mellowed and become more universal in her thinking.

I know that I have had ritual experiences which did not demand a supernatural explanation of any kind, but which were really powerful in promoting my emotional and spiritual wellbeing. I am thinking particularly of the outcome of a ritual which gave me a several-hours-long taste of what it would be like to be free from the burden of guilt I've had since childhood. I know now what I might be aiming for: I'm not there, but I've at least seen it. Without the ritual techniques I wouldn't have even that much. It was a ritual working specifically with personal archetypes, and a theist and a non-theist might well have approached it exactly the same: it doesn't matter whether the Fairy Queen and the Jaguar and the Regent have any external reality, it was still really useful to haul out that internal reality and see it so clearly.

[Froborr]

@MaryKaye: I'm spoiling the likely topic of my next Slacktiverse submission, but I feel much the same way about many Jewish traditions, especially Passover. I know the story of Exodus is almost certainly completely made up, but the ritual matters to me, both for what it symbolizes and also the way it marks a particular spot of the year.

[Leum]

@MaryKaye: thanks for the recommendation. Just ordered it from Amazon.

[Amaryllis]

More or less related: I see by the paper (now there's an expression young ones won't have heard!), that is, in the New York Times, that "groups representing atheists and secular humanists are pushing for the appointment of one of their own to the chaplaincy, hoping to give voice to what they say is a large — and largely underground — population of nonbelievers in the military."

Which would be interesting. The idea of an "atheist chaplain" does seem counterintuitive, but at least it'd serve as a needed counterbalance to a chaplain corps that's apparently 90% Christian.

[Leum]

An atheist chaplain would be great. Someone who can explain how to relate to the universe without God would be nice. I was pretty disappointed with all the folks at Friendly Atheist who dismissed the idea. People without God have spiritual needs too, and it's best to get them from someone with spiritual training. Not that I object to Christian chaplains by any means, the three I interacted with on the psych ward were all very good about not pushing any particular form of religion on me.

[Lila]

I would totally support the appointment of atheist chaplains. (No, I'm not an atheist.)

[CZEdwards (who was CSHolocene)]

Here's the big reason for atheist chaplains: within the military, one's superiors can look at one's medical records, including psychotherapy. If a service member (and zir spouse or children) is having problems, and seeks therapy, this can affect the service member's chances of promotion. But if the service member seeks pastoral care (and many chaplains handle marriage, family and personal growth issues) that has the "privacy of the confessional." (This can backfire -- had my mother gone to the base shrinks and said "My husband is abusing me," instead of trying to work through the chaplain's office, it's more likely something would have been done... Or not. The 1980s pretty much sucked for domestic violence intervention.)

Atheist and non-religious service members and their families have the same issues everybody else has -- deaths in the family while on deployment, marriage crises, battle fatigue and trauma stress -- and quite often, these issues just don't get addressed. When my partner was in Iraq (first time we tried that adventure) he identified as Pagan. The chaplain deployed with their unit made a point of regularly checking on all of the Protestants in the unit, but ignored my partner and the other six in his unit who weren't Protestant. That made their year in the desert much, much harder. If there are more non-Christian (of all types) chaplains, it won't make the problems go away, but it means the rest of the chaplaincy will have to address and accept the differences.

[Froborr]

I think, with the shifting demographics of the American population, either we're going to have to have about half as many chaplains as soldiers, or we're going to need to start having multi-faith chaplains.

[Leum]

Theoretically, chaplains are trained to provide pastoral care regardless of religion. As I said, the chaplains at my hospital were more than capable of ministering to someone outside of their faith tradition.

[MadGastronomer]

Theoretically, chaplains are trained to provide pastoral care regardless of religion. As I said, the chaplains at my hospital were more than capable of ministering to someone outside of their faith tradition.

And yet, every military pagan I know has complained of the treatment they get from Christian chaplains, who try to convert them, harangue them, ignore them, or otherwise treat them badly.

Outside their faith traditions? Maybe, as long as it isn't too far outside their faith traditions.

[Literata]

Theoretically, chaplains are trained to provide pastoral care regardless of religion.

The difference between theory and practice is greater in practice than in theory. I'm currently co-leader of a Pagan open circle on a local military base, and was very, very lucky to get a chaplain who actually believed in the concept of caring for members of all religions to help me get it established. Now that he's moved to another base, we're having a heck of a time getting another chaplain to be our official sponsor. (Sponsor doesn't have to be of the same religion; that's why lay leaders like me exist. But some chaplains just aren't comfortable sponsoring a Pagan group.)

Someone very high up in the Chaplain Corps recently said that there would never be a Pagan chaplain because they just weren't needed. In fact, there have been efforts since the late 90s to get a Pagan chaplain which have been stymied at every turn.

The point about confidentiality and the need for chaplains can't be stressed enough, either.

[Neohippie]

Wow... this post just explained something I tried to explain about myself in comments a while ago... I think it was that one about perceptions... and I believe I failed miserably to explain myself.

This is pretty much what I meant about depression making it hard for me to know whether to believe in the divine because it skews my perceptions so much (I have trouble believing in the love other people have for me, let alone God(s)!). Even after having had spiritual experiences (that's the best way I can describe such experiences anyway), later my depression can always say I was just imagining things so it didn't mean anything.

Bascially, when I'm in a good mood I'm a pagan. When I'm depressed, I'm an atheist. Not to say that all atheists are unhappy people, just that this is how it works for me personally. (Though my mom who raised me is an atheist of the "religion is stupid" sort, and pretty much taught me that there is no God, and she knows this because the world is too crappy for there to be a God.)

I'm trying to get myself to do some kind of Pascal's Wager type thing where I just go with being a pagan, which makes me happy, so that even if it's all silliness at least I'll have a happy life before I die and disappear into nothing. Better than being "right" about being an atheist, but being miserable during my short life.

But that's easier said than done.

[Kristin]

I would totally support the appointment of atheist chaplains. (No, I'm not an atheist.)

I'm not sure how an atheist chaplain would be much different from a secular grief counselor, for example? Or a social worker who works one-on-one with the patient and the family in terms of palliative care? I don't really understand what an atheist chaplain would be. Would there be some kind of philosophical orientation? Familiarity with secular conceptualizations of "the good life" to draw upon when working with patients and families? I'd think something of this kind would need to be involved in order for an atheist chaplain to have work not already covered by other types of counselors. I know that there are quite a few atheists in Unitarian Universalism, so perhaps some kind of advanced degree from one of their schools of ministry could prepare some one for this kind of work?

[Kristin]

And yet, every military pagan I know has complained of the treatment they get from Christian chaplains, who try to convert them, harangue them, ignore them, or otherwise treat them badly.

This is a *big* problem in the military, as well as in prisons and hospitals.

[Literata]

Hmm - in my experience, Neohippie, it doesn't have to be a Pascal's Wager. You can be an atheist Pagan if you think, for example, that the actions of being Pagan are a kind of toolkit that you can use to work on yourself. I think that about a lot of things that I do: I don't have to believe that citrine makes me think more clearly by virtue of some kind of EM field, and I can know in the back of my mind that it's probably me "psyching" myself into self-confidence and whatnot. But it doesn't stop being magic just because you know how it works. And, if you approach it that way, it often does work, which makes it easier every time. And it is easier said than done - but it's possible.

[Lila]

Literata: it doesn't stop being magic just because you know how it works.

Word. Not magic, exactly, but I find this video to be an effective antidepressant, lasting several hours up to a day, with minor side effects (it tends to make me teary-eyed for a few moments). Placebo, schmacebo. It works for me, and I use it and other similar things when I need a lift.

[Leum]

I'm not sure how an atheist chaplain would be much different from a secular grief counselor, for example? Or a social worker who works one-on-one with the patient and the family in terms of palliative care? I don't really understand what an atheist chaplain would be.

Nothing, in theory, except that in the military conversations with chaplains are confidential, whereas medical records (including visits with counselors) are not and superiors can look at them. Also, as I said in my original post, counselors tend not to be trained in spiritual problems.

[Lonespark]

But it doesn't stop being magic just because you know how it works.

Aaaaand another opportunity to break out my favorite Prachett quote, the summation of much of my philosophy, and the thesis of my favorite pastor's candidating sermon:

"Just because you can explain it doesn't mean it's not still a miracle."

[ako]

Bascially, when I'm in a good mood I'm a pagan. When I'm depressed, I'm an atheist. Not to say that all atheists are unhappy people, just that this is how it works for me personally.

I think it can be the tendency for depressed people to gravitate to whatever idea makes them most unhappy? One of my friends has chronic depression and when she's happiest she's an atheist and when she's at her most depressed she believes there is a God and he's got it in for her.

For her, atheism is the belief that comes from a place of health, comfort, and emotional security, and religion means God wants to make her suffer. For someone who finds religious beliefs to be coming from a place of health and security, and atheism the thing that means everything is meaningless (or whatever it is you find bad or depressing about not believing), it makes sense that it would work the other way.

[Neohippie]

ako said: "For her, atheism is the belief that comes from a place of health, comfort, and emotional security, and religion means God wants to make her suffer. For someone who finds religious beliefs to be coming from a place of health and security, and atheism the thing that means everything is meaningless (or whatever it is you find bad or depressing about not believing), it makes sense that it would work the other way."

Yeah, that makes sense, especially if your conception of God is one of the nastier ones. I have a friend who's an atheist and was raised fundie Christian. Quitting believing in a God like the one out of Left Behind was liberating for her.

Literata said: "I don't have to believe that citrine makes me think more clearly by virtue of some kind of EM field, and I can know in the back of my mind that it's probably me "psyching" myself into self-confidence and whatnot. But it doesn't stop being magic just because you know how it works."

A friend of mine (another atheist, by the way) recently told me that there was some recent study out saying that placebos work even if you know they're placebos, which is NOT what I had always thought. (Which makes me lousy at doing magic because I'm afraid I don't believe in it hard enough to make it work, or something like that.)

Have you heard anything like that? Though, now that I think of it, I wonder if my friend was lying to me so that I'd think that placebos work even if you know that they are placebos, and therefore they'll work on me now... O.o

[alienbooknose]

I had read about that study a couple of weeks ago as well. Here's a good write up of it, including some of the limitations and issues: Evidence that Placebos could work even if you tell people.

The whole thing reminds of Pratchett (yet again) and headology.