Given Names

Names have power. Our ability to specify how we should be addressed is especially precious to people who are systematically or situationally less privileged. There has been a long history of people with more power or more privilege using more familiar names or forms of address, like dropping titles, to create a sense of intimacy without the permission of the other person.

The power of names has been on my mind recently, both online and face-to-face, in part because I have had some encounters at the intersection of names and power. My partner is a member of the US armed forces, so I often go onto military bases where my ID is checked. Most of the time, an MP or a civilian security contractor simply looks at my ID and wishes me a good day. Usually the service members will address me as "ma'am," and the contractors don't use any form of address.

But there's always an exception. Recently, a contractor handed my ID back and said, "Thanks, [LegalFirstName]," in a tone and with a smile that were not-so-subtly sexual. At first, my gut churned with a familiar mix of fear and shame, but then a flare of anger leaped up. How dare he? I summoned up my iciest smile and thanked him in a voice that implied I wished he would satisfy his desires alone with a Brillo pad.

I was angry because the guard was in a position of power over me, and that exacerbated the fear and shame that I felt in response. Plus, he knew from the form of my ID that I am married to a service member. As I processed my reaction, I realized that the contractor had also made me feel uncomfortable in a situation where I usually felt relatively safe, including about names and forms of address.

The military has rules governing how people address each other, obviously. Even for people not in uniform, like spouses and children, it’s pretty easy to figure out their probable status, and most service members err on the side of caution with extra politeness just in case that’s actually an admiral in civvies. While those rules are based on a hierarchical power structure, their predictability gives me a certain amount of comfort. I realize that this is in itself a privilege, since my preferences largely track with the military system, but it’s comfort nonetheless.

The military system also puts a veneer of politeness over even awkward interactions. Elizabeth D. Samet, a civilian who wrote about her experiences teaching English at West Point, described how a simple response like “Yes ma’am” can carry emotional implications from joy to fury encoded in nuances as subtle as the scale in a tonal language. Nearly everyone who spends time in the system learns those implicit signals, but the veneer of politeness gives me the option of disregarding the emotional content if I need to.

Not all conventions of names in the military are dictated by explicit protocol, though. In the Air Force, nearly everyone has a “call sign,” a short nickname that is often a pun on the person's actual name (a Col. Colby had the call sign "Cheese") or has a hilarious story attached ("There I was, in a bar in Itaewon…..and that's why my call sign is TwoDogs."). In the AIr Force, even officers of widely differing ranks will often address each other by call sign. Especially for pilots, being addressed by their “real name” is actually an insult because it is disregarding an indication of a coveted status, much as calling a professor or a doctor “Mr.” or “Mrs.” is a slight.

None of this, though, explains away the sense of invasion that I had experienced with the contracted security person. When I mentioned my disturbing experience to LitSpouse, he pointed out that some people, especially women, may prefer their first names over being addressed as “Mrs. HisLastName.” I agreed, and said that the issue of defining our own names is an ongoing conversation. In this instance, though, with the sickeningly inappropriate mixture of sex and power, I was proud of myself for not succumbing to shame or fear and responding in a way that affirmed my own power.

Another example of the way men can use women’s names to imply or assert power over them popped up in a fictional context not too long after that. In an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, the Enterprise has encountered a planet where the gender roles are reversed: women are bigger, stronger, and it is regarded as simply natural for them to hold power in both public and private. The crew on the ship are coming down with an ailment, and eventually Lieutenant (junior grade) Geordie LaForge is left in command. When Lieutenant Tasha Yar calls up to the ship from the surface, she says, “Enterprise, this is Lt. Yar.” LaForge responds to her - his superior officer - by saying, “Yeah, Tasha, go ahead.”

It’s such a subtle thing! I had seen this episode a half-dozen times and never noticed it before. This was a much less difficult situation than the one I had been in; after all, LaForge’s tone is entirely congenial and we know that he and Yar get along well. Spouse pointed out that officers within one rank of each other can drop titles and address each other by first names, if the more senior one allows, although this varies by service culture. Since LaForge is technically in temporary command, he might even sort of outrank her.

But my point remains: Yar contacted the ship using standard protocols, and a male she outranks responded by publicly disregarding formality and using her first name - and only hers. I wouldn’t have minded if he had said, “Yeah, Tasha, this is Geordie, go ahead.” With the somewhat paradoxical rank/command situation going on, if he wants to ignore formality, it would be polite to use his first name as well, and really, he needs to identify himself anyway, since the away team doesn’t know why such a junior officer is in command. Using his own first name would put them on an even footing. Using hers only - and in public on the bridge - is a subtle power dynamic. That it occurred, probably unconsciously, in the midst of an episode devoted to questioning gender roles only goes to show how deep this issue runs.

In the real world, names can be about a lot more than rank or titles. This article gives more explicit examples of how a "real names only" policy on social networking sites has the potential to make those sites much less accessible to people who choose to use a created identity rather than their legal name. For people whose created identity is a form of protection, like those engaged in potentially dangerous social activism, further enforcement of these policies could force them to choose between the advantages of online communication and the very real risk of personal harm.

Names have power. I don’t have any easy answers to how we should address each other in public, but I do think that one of the ways we can use our increasingly technological web of communication to break down old patterns of privilege, rather than reinforcing them, is to allow the use of pseudonyms, especially for social networking. The civilian world is even more complex than the military in terms of how names and titles have meaning and power. In these settings, especially for less-privileged people, the ability to give only the names we choose is a precious right.

As I’ve grown more self-confident, I've made a practice of smiling gently at people in public situations, much more so than I used to do. I think of it as a way to mitigate the dehumanizing grind of urban crowdedness. For the most part, this has had very positive results: people smile back, and sometimes they even look a little relieved or pleasantly surprised at this recognition of shared humanity.

But there’s always an exception: one man smiled back at me and complimented me on my smile. I thanked him and turned away. He called after me, "What's your name?" with just a touch of insinuation in his voice. I kept walking. He tried to sound more plaintive but came across as more threatening when he called again, "Can I get a name?"

I didn't give it to him.

--Literata

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Comments

[Irina]

Using someone's name without having been given it explicitly is a power game in my book. Also, people who call me by LegalName, and aren't my relatives or part of officialdome, have got it wrong-- I haven't gone by it for thirty years or so, more than half my life.

[Irina]

And of course I have to make a typo in the very first comment-- that's "officialdom".

[Froborr]

Using someone's name without having been given it explicitly is a power game in my book.

So very much yes. This is why it creeps me the hell out when I go to the grocery store, use that stupid tied-to-your-name-and-phone-number card you have to use to get the "savings,"* and then they decide to compound the humiliation of the experience by addressing me by name. It's apparently some kind of incredibly misguided attempt to seem "friendlier," but all it does from my perspective is encourage me to use the automated check-out.

*Don't even get me started on what a scam THOSE are.

As for the linked article, I remain rather confused as to how a site like Google+ can possibly enforce a "real names" policy. I mean, it's not like they ask for government ID, so how can they possibly tell whether you're using you're real name or not?

If it's what I fear, and they have a bot combing through accounts deleting people whose names are insufficiently common,* that sounds like a discrimination suit waiting to happen.

*Almost certainly meaning, "Common in the U.S." and probably meaning, "Common among American WASPs."

[Irina]

Uh, Google+ has asked some people for government ID. I'm staying outta there, even though my common name is unremarkable enough to pass.

[Brin]

Oh look, italics.

Or not.

[Laiima]

Thank you for addressing this loaded topic, Literata!

I have had a love-hate relationship with my LegalFirstName since I was a small child. Around age 12, I devised a shortened form of it (with a unique spelling) that I decided I would go by with family. Over time, I gradually invited certain intimate friends to also use it. But it was a *very big deal* to me that the nickname only be used by people *I* gave my permission to.

When I got married, Spouse routinely called me by Nickname in front of his parents, and I assumed that was why they started calling me that. I didn't like it, because I'm not close to my in-laws, but I never said anything. And when I've tried to explain how names can be markers of various levels of intimacy, no one ever seems to know what I'm talking about.

Fast forward nine years of resentment, to a trip with my in-laws to visit their distant relatives. My mother-in-law introduced me to these people who are strangers as Nickname, not FirstName. I was livid, but felt I could not say anything. (It was on this trip I found out that Spouse's family ascribes to the idea that only blood relatives count as family; if you marry in, even if you are the parent of children, you are still not family.)

I seethed for weeks, and then I wrote my in-laws a very angry letter about how they had no right to call me by Nickname, since I had never granted my permission. (It turns out that Spouse had told them they could, and he never thought to tell me.) My letter caused an uproar that permanently damaged our relationship. Now they don't call me anything, or they gingerly use FirstName.

I realized years later that part of my rage came from wanting my own parents to stop calling me Nickname, and feeling like I couldn't say that. So unconsciously I used my in-laws as a proxy for dealing with those feelings. I've spent the last nine years wondering if I should apologize, and knowing I cannot. Because my father-in-law doesn't respect consent anyway, and if I apologize, he'll feel vindicated for his scorched-Earth response at the time.

Now when I meet new people, I hardly know what to tell them my name is. I've seriously considered dropping my first name entirely, and just going by my last name (which I designed myself, and is not a family name).

[MaryKaye]

When I was in high school I was very non-athletic, but I still had to take PE. One term I signed up for "Recreational Games", which turned out to have exactly two kinds of students in it: a lot of jocks who took every PE class they could get, and a couple of non-jocks who thought it would be easier than the alternatives. (Softball, ugh. Gymnastics, eek! I was not flexible as a teen at all.)

This made for an incredible amplification of the "last chosen for your team" dynamic. It could have been awful, but the group somehow found some accommodations, and one of them was names. I was Myrtle for the entire term; no one EVER called me MaryKaye in that context, even people who called me that in other classes. I don't know how this happened--someone must have called me that and it stuck.

I was surprised how much this helped. Myrtle's role was to be lousy at sports, but somehow that was a lot less personal, and I could laugh at it. I got my revenge, too, when we each had to teach a sport, and I made my big crowd of jocks play Hug Tag. "You'll be parents someday, you ought to know how." I didn't improve my athletic abilities at all--that had to wait for fencing in college and martial arts much later in life--but I got through the experience without scars, and I truly think not being MaryKaye made it easier. It was probably my best high school gym experience, in fact.

Names can be like masks, and a name change can have some of the same power as putting on a different mask. This is behind a lot of the weird societal controls over names--if I recall correctly, the upthread Irina lives in a country where she cannot change her given name without an enormous fight, and I will speculate that this is an expression of a deep-seated feeling that people who want to change their names are up to something, are destabilizing and suspicious. Pagans often take magical names to mark initiations--it's a powerful symbol. (So I bite my lip and use the names I'm asked to use, even though I find it hard to call someone RavenWolf with a straight face.)

[Phoenix, whose name is Phoenix]

This piece is incredible. Within my own identity, I have two legitimate first names. Names that people call me on a regular basis, names I respond to as my own. Names that are mine.

My legal name is one, of course; it's my given name which my parents picked for me, which I spent a number of years attempting to deny, and which I now see for what it was: a gift offered in love. I have reclaimed it as my own, but it was initially chosen for me by someone else. My only choice was in whether or not to accept it.

So while I have come to feel not only acceptance but great affection for my given name*, it does not hold the same power as the name I chose for myself and took on as my own. It was, for years, the name I went by at work - I still have friends surprised by the sudden knowledge that it isn't my "real" name - it is the name I always have and always will write under.

This split identity thing has caused me some weird problems and uncomfortable moments at times (usually in the context of being asked to explain why I didn't go by my given, legal name to a particular person whose business it was not). But I've come to terms with it. Having one name would make things simpler, but it would also be less true. Both names are me. They have claimed different parts of my identity for themselves.

Though I currently go by my legal/given name in most circles, it warms my heart greatly when someone calls me by my chosen name - especially if it's not how they normally address me. It shows, I think, a certain respect for a different, rather private side of who I am which, by its very nature, doesn't get nearly as much recognition as the side belonging to my "proper" name.

Good on you for refusing to allow these men to have access to your identity through your name. In one situation he knew your name and used it in a way to which you did not consent, and in the other you denied him access altogether - but in both situations, you refused to allow them to dictate your actions.

Well done, and thank you kindly for the powerfully-written reflections.

*I began to feel especially fond of it after spouse-elect and I got together; my legal name is the female version of his name, and I saw that as an expression of our natural intimacy. We were one before we were even born. At least that's how I like to think of it.

[Literata]

Irina, I agree, but what counts as "being given it explicitly" is variable. Another area of serious power disparity that I thought about but didn't address in this post is in medical care. Patients and caregivers have to work through these issues on a regular basis; some institutions have policies, some don't, and some people are jerks no matter what.

Personally, I suspect the contracted security critter used to work at some place where they evaluated security staff on whether or not they stated the person's name, just to test whether the security people had actually looked at the content of the ID and not just the form. That still doesn't explain or excuse his tone.

Froborr, I don't think it's a bot, but yes, there is some unarticulated standard of 'normal' going on here. I don't know whether my pseudonym would pass, for example.

Laiima, thank you for sharing that difficult story. I'm still juggling different names in different places myself, and prefer some of them that way, so I know where you're coming from.

[Irina]

if I recall correctly, the upthread Irina lives in a country where she cannot change her given name without an enormous fight

Not an enormous fight (any more; they've relaxed the rules recently) so much as ridiculous expense. If I ever get really rich I might do it. Usually it's easier to use CommonName for everything except officialdom, and tell relatives what my name is but let them call me what they like. It's the explaining that irks me, but it's not worth all that money to me to end that.

[Sixwing]

This is one of the reasons I use an obvious, glaring pseudonym, actually. It's a self-chosen name. It, like a minimum of two before it, reflects part of my personality that I want it to reflect. It is also very silly, and hard to respond to without cracking a smile; that's part of its function.

I become deeply uncomfortable when addressed by name in person, especially inserted with no apparent rhyme or reason mid-sentence. I know it's based on an attempt at connection or intimacy or some such, but it doesn't work at all.

I remember that Star Trek episode. I thought they'd done it intentionally - that Yar's offhanded treatment by the Enterprise crew was a deliberate and thoughtful contrast to the deference of the male locals.

But then the second half of the episode happened and proved me wrong. >:(

[Asha]

I had been teaching English in Japan for the past two years, and I went through something similar but not sure I handled it quite so well.

The Japanese teachers did not ask how I wished to be addressed. Instead, they just started using my given name without any kind of honorific attached. While this wouldn't have bothered me if the other two teachers I worked with went by the same formula, it did bother me because they had the status as adults that was conferred by "Mr./Ms./Lastname" I was simply called by my first name. I should have corrected it early on, but didn't. I really dislike being called just by my given name in a professional situation. However, Ms. + given name feel just fine to me.

I wish people would just ask about these things. Ugh.

[Amaranth]

Asha, your story caught my eye because I read a lot of manga and watch anime.

I know very little about Japanese culture and social norms beyond what's presented in anime (which really isn't much), but it's my understanding that the Japanese have an extensive and clearly-defined system of addressing each other based on family, status, familiarity, and such. How one might address a spouse is very different from how one would address a friend or acquaintance, which is again different from how you'd address a coworker or fellow student...which is *again* different from how you'd address a boss or authority figure.

Am I right in that calling someone by their first name without their permission is, in Japanese culture, a terrible faux pas, if not an insult? That doesn't seem like something a local would do without knowing full well what it meant.

Or is the titles business not as big a deal as all that?

[Froborr]

"You'll be parents someday, you ought to know how."

Thanks for that dose of breeder privilege, it really classes up the thread. /sarcasm

*

It just occurred to me that I was 14 when I started going by "Froborr" online--it's been my nom de net for more than half my life. Even my fiancee occasionally uses it, especially when we're talking about Internet- or fandom-related stuff.

This post and thread made me think about her--her given name has very strong connotations (in fiction both the name and its most common derived nickname are almost always used for characters that are cruel and domineering, and most people seem to have similar expectations on it in real life), while her nickname (which is a contraction of her real name) is pretty close to unique, so doesn't carry that baggage.

It's funny. Possibly because my given name is a three-letter monosyllable and fairly rare, I've never had a nickname. But far from encouraging bad behavior, I find that as Froborr I can make an effort to be my best self. Back when I was 14, Jed was a complete jackass, a deeply cynical, arrogant, logic-bomber libertarian jerkass.

But Froborr, increasingly, was different. Froborr was who Jed *wanted* to be, and what Jed really wanted, even if he couldn't admit it to himself, was to be part of a community.* Since then I've basically become that Froborr, and now Jed is a somewhat cynical, lazy, self-doubting, nuker liberal jerkass. Progress!

*Ah, RPGFFSMB. How many of us wild free-ranging nerds did you socialize?

[Froborr]

@Asha and Amaranth: A co-worker of mine did a year of teaching in Japan, and he said the parents did the same thing to him. According to him, it was definitely a deliberate insult.

However, given that the Japanese rules on titles of address are extremely complex, I'm not sure if it would still be an insult if a coworker with seniority did it.

[MaryKaye]

"You'll be parents someday, you ought to know how."

Thanks for that dose of breeder privilege, it really classes up the thread. /sarcasm

It didn't occur to me that it would be read that way, as I am a parent and not a breeder myself. But I'm sorry for not thinking it through more carefully.

What I think I was trying to say to my long-ago classmates is, "Someday we will be out of this environment, and it will no longer be unthinkable that you have something to do with children." I'll stand by that message, if not by the way I phrased it.

[Deird, who cares about names]

Fascinating topic!

I have always been very picky about my name - specifically, about its spelling and pronunciation, and nicknames. I want my name to be spelt and pronounced correctly (and always point out when someone has done it wrong), and I don't like any conventional nicknames for it.

Having people regularly say "Oh, you don't have a nickname? Well, I'll call you Mary." was infuriating (especially since Mary is a name with VERY BAD associations for me), and led to me coming up with my own nickname ("Maz", which eventually morphed into "Mez") just so they wouldn't give me nicknames I didn't like.

These days, I have a different name from each person in my family: to Dad I'm "Maryanne", to Mum I'm "Mandy-Lou", to sister 1 I'm "Maz", and to sister 2 I'm "Deird"...

I was surprised how much this helped. Myrtle's role was to be lousy at sports, but somehow that was a lot less personal, and I could laugh at it. I got my revenge, too, when we each had to teach a sport, and I made my big crowd of jocks play Hug Tag. "You'll be parents someday, you ought to know how." I didn't improve my athletic abilities at all--that had to wait for fencing in college and martial arts much later in life--but I got through the experience without scars, and I truly think not being MaryKaye made it easier. It was probably my best high school gym experience, in fact.

*nods*

I have a really hard time getting criticism/advice (on singing and acting, specifically) from one sister (too many years of history, inevitably leading to loud arguments), so one day we invented "Miss Esmerelda". Miss Esmerelda looks like my sister, but is actually a totally different person who is not related to me at all, and doesn't have that long history of inevitable arguments, so I can take criticism from her much more easily...

[Froborr]

@MaryKaye: That's fair, and thank you.

I hereby unilaterally declare peace. =P

[Froborr]

@Deird: That's a fascinating idea. My fiancee and I did something similar with our third roommate, Invisi-Hippo.* My fiancee comes from a family where the first response to anything going wrong in any way is to find someone to blame and yell at them, with the goal of making sure you do it before anyone can blame/yell at you.

I find this less than productive and refuse to play. I have thus begun deflecting her immediate "Something has gone wrong, you're the only other person in the room, therefore I yell at you" instinct by blaming Invisi-Hippo. It's starting to work, and occasionally I've caught her responding to some minor incident with a shout of "Dammit, Invisi-Hippo!"

*Who is, as the name implies, an invisible hippopotamus. Great roommate, very quiet, almost don't notice zie's there.

[[Phoenix]]

I really dislike being called just by my given name in a professional situation. However, Ms. + given name feel just fine to me.

@ Asha [et al] - I've always wondered how people deal with this when it comes up. I've never asked someone to address me more formally - as far as I know, I've never even corrected someone on my name at all, unless you count asking people to call me my full legal first name as opposed to a shortened version that I used in high school and now despise.

(You'd think I'd have to correct people constantly given the two-names business, but actually I tend to accept whatever name people decide to call me as long as, if they choose my legal name, they use the full version rather than the shorthand I mentioned in the previous paragraph. A lot of people don't even realize I have two names, although sometimes I'll explain it when I'm really hitting it off with someone, particularly online.)

Anyway, I think I'd be really uncomfortable asking someone to call me Ms. Lastname or Dr. Lastname instead of [Firstname]. In a situation like you described, I might couch it as "Please address me the way you do the other teachers here so it doesn't seem odd to the students," but if someone randomly decided to use my first name in a professional setting even though Ms. Lastname would be more proper and I'd strongly prefer it... I just am not sure how I'd handle that.

Do you simply say "Please address me formally in the classroom/office"? That sounds so cold. Particularly if you're a doctor asking to be called Dr. Soandso. Not that you don't have a right to ask for it, I just think I would feel awkward and rude doing it (even though, really, the rudeness is on the other person for assuming informality is okay when zie barely knows you and you're in a professional setting).

[J. Enigma (the Transhumanist)]

This may just be me, but "breeder" seems like something of an insult. I don't have children of my own, but I would like to some day, and to be referred to as a "breeder" seems rather demeaning, especially to the women involved. It may just be me, though.

[Julezyme]

Ever since I can remember I have been correcting people about my first name. I'd introduce myself as JuliAAAAA and still a good percentage of the time people would call me JuliE. Not that there's anything wrong with the name Julie, necessarily. But it is a distinct name that is not mine. And I am emphatically *not* a Julie. It chafes. It doesn't fit. It is not me.

The only people who I didn't correct were my aunt and (older than me) cousin; this was because it didn't matter that I didn't like it, they would persist in calling me that. Now I try to
understand this as them having special pet name for me. But I think, and always dud think, it had more to do with my aunt wanting to call me that because she just wanted to, and not caring that it wasn't my preference and I strenuously hated it.

Jules - fine. Jules is short for Julia. But Julie - no.

Actually, I didn't like my name when I was younger. This is because where I grew up it is pronounced Jool-ya, or even Joow-ya, which is quite ugly sounding. I think I was in, or close to being in, college when I realized I could pronounce my own name with three syllables. Wow! I thought; that's kind of pretty! Then I went to Scotland where I became "Jillia" and England where I motives into "JewLia". I liked these women much more than poor little old Juwya, whose last name is another, similar, story I won't go into now.

Names. Serious power.

[Literata]

Froborr: I love Invisi-Hippo. Great solution to the problem.

As far as titles go, my father dearly wished he could resurrect the pre-WW I German title system. His students in German classes had to call him Herr Professor Pastor Doktor [LastName], and my mother was Frau Professor Pastor Doktor [LastName]. The wife always got her husband's titles, but it was very clear that they were not hers because they retained the masculine endings. His mother was Mrs. HusbandsFirstName HusbandsLastName until the day she died. So I grew up being familiar with an extremely elaborate system as well as various contemporary degrees of formality. I'm comfortable with many different degrees of formality, but I'm probably more aware of them than most.

The plus side of this is that one, navigating some military situations is a breeze ("Oh, it's simple, you write LTC So-and-so, PhD (ret.), obviously."), and two, when I had a professor in grad school who I really didn't like - he was a lousy teacher - I simply got around it by always calling him "Dr. BadTeacher" instead of "Prof. BadTeacher." In the old German system, there are a lot more PhDs than there are professors, so being a professor is a significantly higher honor (which I was not acknowledging since I thought he wasn't living up to it). It neatly made me feel better without hurting anyone else.

Phoenix: In certain situations I would have no problem saying, "Please call me Mrs. LastName," and when I get my PhD, I am darn sure going to say "Dr. LastName, actually, not Mrs." It depends, and tone can do a lot to make it sound less aggressive or rude, but yeah, I would say that if I felt like it was needed.

[Amaryllis]

In a hurry, but there's always time for a poetry link.

The reference to Samet's book reminded me of William Matthews' experience with A Poetry Reading at West Point:

Question and answer time.
"Sir," a cadet yelled from the balcony,
and gave his name and rank, and then,
closing his parentheses, yelled
"Sir" again. "Why do your poems give
me a headache when I try

to understand them?" he asked. "Do
you want that?"

You can get a lot across with a properly placed "Sir!" or "Ma'am!"

[Froborr]

J. Enigma's right; I apologize for using the term "breeder."

I find I don't actually have a term for that--what is a non-offensive term by which to call out that particular kind of privilege (that is, the assumption of society that everyone will produce offspring, or that if you don't you're immature)? "Parental privilege" sounds... wrong, for reasons I'm having trouble articulating, but is that the preferred term?

@Phoenix: My fiancee comes from a background in which Ms. + [Given name] is the default form of address to an adult woman who is older than you and whose given name you know.

For me, I will generally just use whatever someone introduces themselves as unless/until they tell me otherwise. If someone says, "Hi, I'm Dr. X," I'll call them Dr. X. If they say "Hi, I'm [given name]," I'll call them that with no title.

As the first sentence of the section on names in the AP Style Manual (at least the edition current when I was in college) says, "People have a fundamental right to be addressed as they prefer to be addressed." (Followed by about five inches of caveats, clarifications, and exceptions, most of them inspired by Prince.)

[Phoenix]

This may just be me, but "breeder" seems like something of an insult.

@J. Enigma - I've never heard it used as anything but an insult, mostly against (as you said) women who have a lot* of children. I don't think I've ever heard a man referred to as a breeder. For me, it brings to mind images of breeding female animals - cows, sheep, pigs, etc. - who have no real purpose after they're done popping out babies and are either retired (if their owner happens to be fond of them) or killed. It's very much an insult - I'd have a hard time hearing it any other way from anyone.

*This appears to be totally subjective depending on who is doing the judging, since my friend with one whole kid has been called a breeder more than once.

[MaryKaye]

I presume Froborr was fully aware that "breeder" is insulting and used the term in order to draw attention to what s/he saw as unconscious privilege, namely my assumption that of course everyone will someday be a parent.

I don't ask my college students to call me by title, though most of them do anyway. I don't feel insecure in my authority in that setting so the informality doesn't worry me. If my authority were more tenuous I would insist on the title, and wouldn't feel particularly awkward doing so: "Professor K, please." We do insist that our 6-8 year old martial arts students call the person teaching them "sensei" no matter who it is, because this helps fend off "You're not my REAL teacher" misbehavior.

The one thing I will correct EVERY TIME is if you call my male colleagues Doctor or Professor and call me MaryKaye or any variant on that. If I am MaryKaye the famous guy in the next office has to be Joe. No exceptions.

Incidentally, I was at a small scientific meeting, far from here, when a speaker had occasion to say, "You know, I've noticed that there are only three people not present who we all refer to by their first names without explanation: Joe [Felsenstein], Eric [Lander] and Jesus." There was general laughter, as it was perfectly true and seemed to say something about the people involved.

[Lila]

"Breeder privilege". Check.

Froborr, you've succeeded where Mabus failed.

Later. Or maybe not.

[Lonespark]

The only context I've ever heard "breeder" in before was as a snarky way for gay people, often snarky old queens in movies, to refer to straight people. Regardless of whether the straight people were or could be parents, I think. An insult, but not one with much power outside a particular marginalized culture.

[Froborr]

I presume Froborr was fully aware that "breeder" is insulting and used the term in order to draw attention to what s/he saw as unconscious privilege

Yes, which is no way to behave, and I apologize.

"Breeder privilege". Check.

Froborr, you've succeeded where Mabus failed.

Later. Or maybe not.

Huh?

Especially the second line, what does Mabus have to do with anything?

If you're upset with me for using that term, I accept and deserve that, and again, apologize.

If you're questioning whether such privilege exists, however? Yes, yes it most definitely does. It's not as pronounced as, say, white privilege, or heterosexual cismale privilege, but it's still measurably real.

I don't think I've ever heard a man referred to as a breeder.

I most definitely have. And yeah, the term pretty much gets applied to anyone with any offspring.

[Froborr]

@Lonespark: I've definitely heard childfree people using it as an insult for parents. I've been (as recently as, oh, half a dozen posts up this thread) childfree people using it as an insult for parents.

I really ought to know better, especially as I'm marrying someone who doesn't want to be childfree and therefore probably won't be childfree in five or ten years or so.

[Ruby]

Irina: Uh, Google+ has asked some people for government ID. I'm staying outta there, even though my common name is unremarkable enough to pass.

Facebook asked me to do the same thing. As a result, I have decided to allow my account to remain permanently "locked" from everyone, including myself.

[MaryKaye]

I can see the rationale behind asking for a legal name, namely that you have (generally speaking) only one of those. People who change identity constantly to avoid either social censure or actual blocking are a real problem in many online environments (as the recent Montreal events make clear) and insisting on a legal name might be some help in clearing that up. Of course, one approach to that would be to insist on the legal name but never, ever display it without permission. (Same way this site asks for my email but does not display it.) Would social network users be okay with that? I am on neither Google+ nor Facebook myself, so I have no horse in this race.

[Phoenix]

I find I don't actually have a term for that--what is a non-offensive term by which to call out that particular kind of privilege (that is, the assumption of society that everyone will produce offspring, or that if you don't you're immature)? "Parental privilege" sounds... wrong, for reasons I'm having trouble articulating, but is that the preferred term?

I don't know if I'd consider that privilege so much as generally judgmental/rude. I guess it might be a form of privilege if you had children of your own and were assuming that everyone could when you said that everyone should but, actually, I've heard people with no children (by choice and not by choice) express a similar opinion*. How tongue-in-cheek and/or universal it was meant to be, I can't say, but the idea that everyone would ideally have children hardly seems the exclusive territory of people who do have some.

As you said, it's a (really icky) societal assumption. I don't know if that always translates so neatly to some sort of privilege. But I'm open to being corrected.

And obviously, exposure to this particular assumption is anywhere from annoying to agonizing no matter what name you give it. I imagine it's especially painful to hear that you should be having kids if you can't, or haven't found the right partner and consider that a prerequisite.

I consider inquiries about a couple's plans to have children extremely intrusive in almost all social circumstances.

@Phoenix: My fiancee comes from a background in which Ms. + [Given name] is the default form of address to an adult woman who is older than you and whose given name you know.

Having just watched The Help**, I find this a tad squicky but if it's how everyone addresses each other rather than how "lower class" individuals speak to "upper class" individuals, I suppose it's all right.

*Usually something like, "Having children is what women are born to do" or "having children is a privilege of marriage." Blech.

**Totally awesome movie that I have not been able to cease marketing. Rather aggressively.

[hapax]

Froborr, I believe your Inviso-Hippo is kin to Misty The Hypothetical Elephant -- invoked when my children go into a long string of "maybe this will happen", "maybe that will happen", and I respond "Maybe the Invisible Elephant flying around the ceiling will land on my head!

Re names -- this article really resonated with me when I first read it, because I have so many names that I really think of as separate people. Surprisingly, "hapax" is NOT my legal name, but is a person who does about a third of my online business. Another third is done under another pseudonym, and my legal and professional work is done under the name "FirstInitial MiddleName Lastname."

"Lastname" is very different from "SpouseLastName", but I magically turn into "Mrs SpouseLastName" when -- and ONLY when -- dealing with official business concerning my children. "Ms LastName" is for official business. "MiddleName" is for friends and coworkers. "FirstName" is used only by immediate family members. "NickName" is only for friends from college (including Spouse).

But, as I said, these are ALL DIFFERENT PEOPLE -- they have different interests, different acquaintances, different writing and speaking styles, different clothes even. It is literally physically painful for me to imagine them getting mixed up; if my siblings, for example, were to call me by MiddleName, it would actually *hurt*. This is one of the reasons I avoid FaceBook, and similar social media that insist on seeking out and tying all these people together -- the better, I assume, to sell me something.

On the plus side, telemarketers or other "fake friendlies" almost always address me as "FirstName SpouseLastName", who is a nonexistent person, and I have no trouble telling them so.

[Laiima]

@Phoenix, I saw "The Help" and liked it, with a lot of caveats. For a movie supposedly about "the help", it sure gave a lot of screen time to the white people who were the actual protagonists. And there were a lot of problematic tropes in the movie too.

Why was it that only the African-Americans risked anything? and were the only ones to show moral courage? but somehow the movie wasn't actually *about* them.

I liked the idea of the movie, but it fell far short of what I hoped for.

[hapax]

I find this a tad squicky but if it's how everyone addresses each other rather than how "lower class" individuals speak to "upper class" individuals, I suppose it's all right.

Hmm. In the Southern US culture that I'm most familiar with, "Miz* Firstname" is how children address adult females with presumed but limited authority (Sunday School teachers, or parents' friends, or in my case, librarians, but probably NOT schoolteachers above primary grades, physicians, pastors, police officers); or adults would address older adult females who have achieved a certain deference due to age or expertise or forcefulness of character, regardless of their respective "class".

I would never refer to my Director as "Miz J." It would be "J." if we were chatting, or "Mrs. C" (or possibly, "Director C") in her professional capacity.

But the circulation clerk who has worked here for twenty years and knows everything there is to know about inter-library loan is always "Miz V."

*Which has no connection besides phonetic similarity to "Ms"

[little pink beast]

Names, and the rules for giving them and using them, fascinate me. There are Some Things I don't feel comfortable calling by name out of respect, or out of a feeling that naming them brings the wrong sort of presence into my life/awareness/something... (say, the Lady of Cats, the Wanderer, the Giant-slayer, the One-handed, or Sleipnir's Dam...)

The other things about names for me... I'm transgendered. I haven't managed to get my legal name changed yet, because of a whole bunch of different things that get in the way, and so every time I have to deal with anything official, it's yet another reminder that officially, the real me doesn't exist, that most of society just doesn't recognise me as being myself. It can really wear a person down.

There's more I want to say, but the thoughts are all jumbled up and won't come out cleanly right now.

[cjmr]

"Parental privilege" is why the adults in the cjmr household are allowed to eat food at the computer desks, but the children are not.

[Phoenix]

@Phoenix, I saw "The Help" and liked it, with a lot of caveats. For a movie supposedly about "the help", it sure gave a lot of screen time to the white people who were the actual protagonists. And there were a lot of problematic tropes in the movie too.

@Laiima - Ooh goody, I've been dying to discuss this movie with someone.

Better ROT-13 this just in case. Trigger warning for racial marginalization and some talk about the movie (no spoilers).

Unir lbh ernq gur obbx? V'z nobhg n dhnegre jnl guebhtu vg, naq vg fjvgpurf orgjrra Fxrrgre, Nvovyrra naq Zvaal (nyy jevggra va svefg crefba). V gubhtug gur zbivr qvq n greevsvp wbo bs nygreangvat orgjrra gurve inevbhf crefcrpgvirf nf gurl jrer yvivat gurz (zber Nvovyrra naq Fxrrgre guna Zvaal, ohg gung'f n angheny yvzvgngvba bs svyz, naq gur grafvba orgjrra Nvovyrra naq Fxrrgre jnf snagnfgvpnyyl qrirybcrq naq cbegenlrq).

Naq fcrnxvat sbe zlfrys bayl, V qvqa'g xabj n ybg nobhg jung gur Fbhgu jnf yvxr va gur fvkgvrf. V nccerpvngrq frrvat n ybg bs fprarf jurer gur juvgrf jrer va gurve ryrzrag, orpnhfr vg nqqrq fbzr urycshy pbagrkg sbe ubj pbzcyrgryl gur oynpxf jrer orvat znetvanyvmrq.

Why was it that only the African-Americans risked anything? and were the only ones to show moral courage? but somehow the movie wasn't actually *about* them.

V qba'g guvax gurl jrer gur bayl barf gb fubj pbhentr ng nyy. Tenagrq, Fxrrgre jnf gur bayl juvgr va gur zbivr jub jnfa'g n entvat pbjneq* - ohg V guvax ure npgvbaf pbhag sbe n ybg, pbafvqrevat ubj vaperqvoyl hayvxryl vg jnf gung gurve fgbevrf jbhyq unir orra gbyq sbe fhpu n ynetr nhqvrapr jvgubhg fvtavsvpnag nffvfgnapr sebz n juvgr crefba ng fbzr cbvag.

Guvf qbrfa'g pbzr npebff fb zhpu va gur zbivr, ohg va gur obbx Nvovyrra vf (ng svefg) nccnyyrq ng gur irel vqrn bs punatvat guvatf. Vg'f uneq gb fnl vs fur qvqa'g jnag gb gel orpnhfr fur gubhtug gurl zvtug trg jbefr vs fur qvq, be orpnhfr fur fvzcyl qvqa'g guvax vg jnf cbffvoyr, ohg fur unq mreb vagrerfg va funxvat guvatf hc jvgu Fxrrgre - rira yrff guna fur qvfcynlrq va gur zbivr.

Naq qba'g sbetrg, Fxrrgre evfxrq wnvy gvzr gbb. Ng yrnfg nppbeqvat gb gur olynjf va gung ybiryl yvggyr znahny nobhg zvabevgl pbaqhpg, rira vs vg jbhyqa'g arprffnevyl unir orra rasbeprq.

Gung orvat fnvq, V sryg yvxr gur pbhentr bs gur oynpxf tbg n terng qrny bs fperra gvzr. V yrsg gur zbivr ersyrpgvat ba ubj zhpu vg zhfg unir gnxra sbe gurz gb svanyyl fcrnx hc, zber guna V yrsg ersyrpgvat ba ubj uneq vg zhfg unir orra sbe Fxrrgre gb evfx ure erchgngvba.

Vg sryg gb zr yvxr gnxvat gur svefg fgrcf gb fgbccvat cerwhqvpr jnf n wbvag rssbeg ol obgu oynpx naq juvgr. Vf gung jung lbh'er bowrpgvat gb? Fubhyq vg unir orra cbegenlrq zber nf na rkpyhfviryl oynpx rssbeg?

*Jvgu gur cbffvoyr rkprcgvba bs ure juvgr rqvgbe, V fhccbfr.

Ryvmnorgu vf gur orfg rknzcyr bs jung V zrna jura V fnl gur erfg bs gur juvgrf jrer entvat pbjneqf. Fur qvqa'g fgevxr zr nf n cnegvphyneyl pehry crefba ba ure bja, ohg fur nyybjrq fbpvrgny cerffher gb ehyr ure ubhfrubyq naq gur jnl fur gerngrq ure uryc. Fur chg ure erchgngvba nobir ure qnhtugre'f arrqf naq, creuncf, ure bja pbaivpgvba nobhg jub Nvovyrra jnf naq jnfa'g.

Gung jnf pbjneqyl va gur rkgerzr, nyy gur zber fb orpnhfr vg qvqa'g frrz fb onq nf jung Uvyyl jnf qbvat. Ohg tbvat jvgu gur sybj vf ubj guvatf tbg gb or gung onq va gur svefg cynpr.

[cjmr]

Since we're discussing "The Help"--movie, or book?

[hapax]

hee, cjmr, there's that.

Although my usual response is, "Because if I screw up, I can afford to fix it."

[Phoenix]

But, as I said, these are ALL DIFFERENT PEOPLE -- they have different interests, different acquaintances, different writing and speaking styles, different clothes even.

@hapax - Egad, I have trouble with two and they dress the same! How on earth do you do this on a regular basis?!

About to take off for the day, but can't wait to resume this tomorrow. Definitely coming to work now :o)

[Phoenix]

@cjmr - I referenced the book and the movie in my ROT-13'd response but I'm not done with the book yet.

[Phoenix]

@[-]- As I said, I'm about to take off but I look forward to reading that article tomorrow and maybe discussing it further. It's probably pretty obvious from what I wrote @7:42 that I'm not black and have some privilege blinders in play here. Thanks for the link and the summary!

[Laiima]

I have not read the book, I have only seen the movie. Given what I saw in the movie, I thought I would do better to read books written by African-Americans themselves, which I have done a lot of lately. The way they write their own history is markedly different from how white people write about them.

[Brin]

we really feel unsafe being google-able. [...] And we're the only one in the entire world who has this name (at least, the only one with any presence on the internet, but the mix of ethnicities in first / last name are such that it's unlikely there are many more people on the planet with this exact name.

Same here, both the unique name* and liking not showing up on Google. The only thing you get Googling my legal name is Mom (giving the surname) talking about other people who happen to share my first name, and that's the way it should be.

*In my case, it's because of hyphenating a (in my culture) common name and a rare name.

Weather website: At 8:00 PM radar shows strong to severe thunderstorms moving eastward through or toward the regions. These storms are capable of producing damaging winds large hail and torrential downpours. There is also the risk for a tornado. Monitor weather conditions and take immediate safety precautions if threatening weather approaches.

Eek. Maybe I should go hide in the basement. I've already unplugged my laptop.

[Laiima]

@Phoenix:
Fxrrgre evfxrq ure erchgngvba naq cbgragvnyyl wnvy gvzr, lrf, ohg Nvovyrra, Zvaal, naq gur bgure znvqf evfxrq gurve wbof/yviryvubbqf, fnsrgl, naq yvirf. (Jura ivbyrapr bpphef va gbja, gur ohf qevire znxrf nyy gur Nsevpna-Nzrevpnaf trg bss gur ohf, naq gnxr gurve punaprf. V jbhyq thrff gurl jrer ng yrnfg evfxvat encr, vs abg zheqre. Naq V jbhyq thrff gubfr evfxf jrer bzavcerfrag va gurve yvirf, ohg abg va Fxrrgre'f ng nal gvzr.) Qrsvavgryl abg rdhny evfxf. Naq ng gur raq bs gur zbivr, Nvovyrra ybfrf ure wbo va fhpu n jnl gung ure yviryvubbq vf pregnvayl guerngrarq (vs fur vf oynpxyvfgrq ol Uvyyl sbe fhccbfrqyl orvat n guvrs, jub ryfr vf yvxryl gb uver ure?).

Zrnajuvyr, Fxrrgre ehaf bss gb Arj Lbex gb gnxr n terng wbo! V ernyyl ungrq gung fprar jvgu Nvovyrra naq Zvaal hetvat Fxrrgre gb tb.

Puneybggr, Fxrrgre'f zbgure, abg bayl oernxf gur urneg bs Pbafgnagvar, ohg erchqvngrf ure naq sverf ure, qrfcvgr ure nqinaprq ntr, naq fur qvrf fubegyl gurernsgre. Puneybggr yrneaf ure yrffba, nsgre Fxrrgre pnyyf ure ba vg. Ohg Pbafgnagvar vf fgvyy qrnq.

Puneybggr chyyf enax ba Uvyyl gb qevir ure njnl va funzr, ohg fur qbrfa'g npghnyyl pbaqrza ure orunivbe ba zbeny tebhaqf.

V pbhyqa'g znxr urnqf be gnvyf bs gur fhocybg jvgu nyy gur zvfpneevntrf. Ohg V qvq ernyvmr gung Zvaal vf gbyq "fur unf n wbo sbe yvsr", ohg gung wbo vf jnvgvat ba juvgr crbcyr unaq naq sbbg sbe 8-12 ubhef n qnl. Qvq gur Sbbgrf ng yrnfg qbhoyr ure jntrf? Gerng ure yvxr na rdhny? V fnj ab fvtaf bs vg.

Naq jub pbhyq zvff gur flzobyvfz bs gur cbbe oybaqr gbqqyre tvey, naq ure oynpx znzzl? Fbzrubj jr arire fnj Nvovyrra'f fba juvyr ur jnf fgvyy nyvir. Jr fnj Zvaal'f puvyqera, ohg jr arire urneq sebz gurz ubj gurl sryg nobhg gurve zbgure orvat njnl sebz gurz. V org gurl pevrq sbe ure gbb! Qvq nal bs gur znvqf grnpu ure bja puvyqera gung gurl jrer 'xvaq, fzneg, naq vzcbegnag'?

[DS]

TW: Metaphorical use of physical violence, references thereof.

wrt: The Help, I thought it was barely half a step above The Blind Side. That is to say, I didn't like it - just like pretty much every other civil rights movie I've ever seen, it's all about the heroic white protagonists rescuing the saintly, gentle, downtrodden black underclass out of the goodness of their hearts, and that wasn't the way it happened at all. In general, I avoid anything with the word 'empowering' in it, or that could be described as such; it always comes off as insincere. Like the phrase 'a slap in the face.'

wrt: Names, oh my goodness, when I was a teacher in China, this was a constant, constant battle. It was the school's unofficial policy that all teachers were to be on a first-name basis with their students, but I wasn't having that - I was always Mr. X (obviously, substitute real surname there) with all the children.

My problems only increased when I tried to explain to the local staff that in good English, all children address all adults formally, and that they weren't supposed to be 'Jenny' or 'Lily' with the kids, but rather 'Ms. Lai' or 'Ms. Wong.' Like swimming up a waterfall, that was. I was so happy when one of the kids took to it... But it was just the one.

Of course, in all the situations I got into, apparently the preferred form of address from an adult to a child was 'little friend.' Whenever I spoke Chinese, I just skipped that and called them 'child.'

And I could also discuss the never-ending apocalypse that was convincing my father not to call me by diminutive pet-names, but that's a story for another day. For me, the battle to get adults to use my real name, rather than calling me 'sweetie' or 'darling' was such a long one, to say nothing of getting past bad nicknames in school, and such a triumph in the achieving (the old man had to /die/ before it was finally stamped out) that I'm elated whenever I am addressed properly.

Ehh, we all bear our burdens.

[Lunch Meat]

For the first eight or so years of my life, I was the most common diminutive nickname of my first name. Eventually I got tired of that, as there is just no way to make it sound mature, and there was a child on TV who went by that name that I absolutely HATED. My mom is still allowed to call me that, but pretty much no one else (which doesn't stop people from doing it, because it's "cute" when I get upset). In high school, my best friend started calling me "Lunch Meat", and it stuck. It's now my internet name at pretty much every site, because it's a) simple and easy to spell and remember, and b) almost never already taken. As for other nicknames, I have a few that my friends use sometimes that are not the common obvious nickname of my name, but by and large I really prefer my given name. I can't even imagine my Husband calling me by a nickname (other than "sweetheart", "dear", "precious", etc) and me liking it. Likewise, I don't have any nicknames for Husband. Legally, I am Firstname Middlename Lastname Husbandlastname, and I'll accept Mrs./Ms. Husbandlastname, but I would be really weirded out by someone using either of my two middle names. They're like...keepsakes, in storage. Not for using.

[Laiima]

@DS, when Spouse and I got to the movie theater and I saw it was packed, mostly with white women of a certain age, my heart sunk. And from the conversations we heard on our way out of the theater, a bunch of those women must have read the book, possibly in a book club, and didn't seem to know much about the history of civil rights in the US. As you say, it was not at all white people ceding power out of the goodness of their hearts to poor dumb black people.

Lately whenever I look at the mass media, I'm looking for racial, ethnic, and cultural diversity. But I'm mostly seeing white people everywhere. I'm sick of white people everywhere. I want to hear stories from perspectives totally different than my own, where people that look like me are *not* the protagonists, and maybe don't even appear in the story.

After all the reading I've been doing about civil rights, I cringe in embarrassment about the completely ignorant things I remember saying to my black coworkers in Indiana. I had no idea there was so much stuff I didn't know. Oh, I thought I was enlightened, but I was a darn fool.

[Amaryllis]

@hapax - Egad, I have trouble with two and they dress the same! How on earth do you do this on a regular basis?!
I second the question!

I've been using the same first name, the one my parents gave me, since I outgrew my toddler nickname. Every calls me by that name (except for the one aunt who occasionally, all these years later, still lets slip that baby name; it's kind of cute, actually).

On line I'm mostly Amaryllis, who is not quite the same person, but alas has no better fashion sense than her alter ego.

My daughter, on the other hand, has several names/identities-- and at that, I bet I haven't heard them all. Nor is the name we gave her the one she prefers to think of herself as, although she answers to it for us. In fact, she would rather not have us use any of the names her real-life or on-line friends call her: we're not part of those parts of her life.

@Julezyme, if you're still around, since you're willing to talk about your name-- how does one pronounce it? I've never know whether to call you Jule-ZIME or Jule-ZEEM or Julezy-me.

Re books by women of color: I'm not sure whether we're counting non-Americans, or how much my opinion as a "white woman of a certain age" is worth. But I'm currently making my way slowly through Nathacha Appanah's The Last Brother. Slowly, not because it's difficult, but because it's too good to hurry through. Credit to both the author and the translator, it's like reading a poem in prose, the kind of poem that "bears witness" in simple clear language.

After the end of the world
after death
I found myself in the midst of life
creating myself
building life
people animals landscapes

this is a table I said
this is a table
there is bread and a knife on the table
knife serves to cut bread
people are nourished by bread

man must be loved
I learnt by night by day
what must one love
I would reply man
-Tadeusz Rozewicz, tr. Adam Czerniawski

(Huh, two poems in one thread? That's what happens with these posts about language; but I'll stop now.)

[Ruby]

hapax: Re names -- this article really resonated with me when I first read it, because I have so many names that I really think of as separate people. Surprisingly, "hapax" is NOT my legal name, but is a person who does about a third of my online business. Another third is done under another pseudonym, and my legal and professional work is done under the name "FirstInitial MiddleName Lastname."

Heh, I'm just glad I'm not the only one. I use "Ruby" and another name for online stuff, "FirstName MiddleInitial LastName" for professional stuff, plus at least two "gaming" names for yet more online stuff that is strictly related to gaming. And if I ever get the novels published, I'll use yet another name that I have yet to determine.

So complicated. :D

[Froth]

I changed my name the day I went from my parent's home to university. I picked up my keys under #oldname, said goodbye to my parents, and introduced myself to my new housemates as #nickname. When the dissonance of using #oldname got too much, and I'd been using #nickname almost exclusively for three years and knew I was comfortable with it, I got myself organised and signed a deed poll. So now I'm #legalname, which shortens to #nickname, which is what I always wanted.

It's complicated, because it ties in to gender as well as other things. I wanted to shed #oldname because it was the name I had been abused under for years and I didn't want those associations every time I heard my name. I love the fact that #nickname is highly unusual, sufficiently so that it is not obviously gendered. You'd probably guess it was female, but it wouldn't be a huge surprise to hear it with male pronouns, because it's a word that is not usually a name at all.

#Legalname gets used on official forms, by my doctor, and to explain #nickname when people ask. It's lovely to be able to say "Oh, it's short for #legalname" and have people accept that as an answer. I couldn't do that with #oldname. Of course, the honest answer is that #legalname is long for #nickname, but that's not an answer people need to understand.

People still ask me what #oldname was when they find out I changed it. I never tell them. They don't need to know. Somehow the people who ask don't like to be told that it doesn't matter, and that stings - it's them telling me that my name isn't really my name, that only what my parents chose for me counts, and that they don't respect me enough to care what I want to be called.

[DS]

@Laiima, the only civil rights movie I've ever enjoyed was Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, and the reason I enjoyed it so much (aside from its one massive, glaring plothole that everyone who's seen it already knows about) is because, in the end, nothing is solved by it. The two parents are forced to confront their subconscious racism, and ultimately they get over it and resolve to be better people - and that's it. They don't turn around and liberate the black community with their new-found understanding, nor do they stare down a bunch of evil white bigots on behalf of their new best friend, or any other chintzy Hollywood garbage.

Instead, they change their attitudes, welcome Sidney Poitier, acknowledge - and this is the best part, they acknowledge that even though their hearts are now in the right place, even though they know in their heads what's right and what's wrong - acknowledge that it's a stretch and that Sidney Poitier has a long, hard road ahead of him, and offer to support him how they can - and let him go off and walk that road.

In my ideal civil rights movie, the only white protagonists would be one couple, who got shocked by the inhumanity of the thing, and shakily pledged to the leading black protagonists that they would help however they could, and then /never appear in the movie again,/ save perhaps in crowd scenes, or maybe there's a meeting held in their house or something.

[Asha]

When I finally called the other teachers on it, they said they thought it was how Americans preferred to be addressed. I didn't mind being "given name-sensei" some of the teachers called me by my given name without any kind of honorific at all.

I returned the favor. They got the idea.

[Laiima]

@Amaryllis, I have nothing against "white women of a certain age", as I am practically at that age myself. What I was trying to get at was something like, if I'm going to see a movie in the theater about a sensitive subject and most of the audience is one sort of person (even if it's the sort of person I am), I'm probably not going to like the movie. If the theater is packed and there are *all sorts of people there*, my chances of liking it are better.

When we went to see Harry Potter, I not only hated all the previews, but I had to close my eyes through 3 of them because of excessive violence. I had supposed that the previews for The Help might be more to my taste, but they weren't. A bunch of dumb romantic comedies, and then War Horse (again). 'Cuz nothing says heartwarming Christmas experience like a movie about World War I, and horses!! (has Steven Spielberg ever made a movie with a female protagonist? how about trying that, before yet another story about a small boy hero? just a thought.)

[Amaryllis]

@Laiima: yeah, I figured you meant something like that. But I do in fact hesitate when recommending books about or by members of groups to which I don't belong-- as in, it reads really well to me, but what do I know?

But on the other hand, and again not directed at you, I do, I suppose, reflexively bristle at the implication that because a work is popular with a particular group, it's probably not any good. Especially if it's a category to which I belong, or have belonged, or might belong.

Did I say I wasn't going to quote any more? Oh well. In an otherwise affecting poem, Czeslaw Milosz talks about the kind of poetry he doesn't like:

A connivance with official lies,
A song of drunkards whose throats will be cut in a moment,
Readings for sophomore girls.

Hey, just a minute there, Mr. Milosz! One of those things is not like the others.

I don't go to movies much, but from what I hear, there are not a lot of films out there where women, let alone middle-aged women, will see themselves. So it's a pity that this particular movie seems to have fallen short of what it could have been.

Come to think of it, the last movie I saw was also the latest Harry Potter. I hated all the previews too. And why they have to be so loud, I don't know either.

[Irina]

Googling LegalName gets, on the second and third pages of results (I didn't look any further, and it will probably be more of the same) a couple of posts on a mailing list in which I actually explain how and why I came to use CommonName instead of LegalName. Written at a time when I wasn't concerned about showing up on Google because not everything automatically ended up on Google then, or I'd probably have taken that into consideration. Also, a page from a classmates site where I'm listed as LegalFirstname MarriedLastname-MaidenLastname (which is my default officialdom identity; that's okay).

Googling CommonName doesn't find LegalName until very, very far down, and if anyone wants to go to all that trouble just to find out something that isn't a secret I wish them much pleasure doing it.

It's not as if there's anything touchy about LegalName, or the connection between it and CommonName, as there is for many other people who use a different name in public. It's just that-- well, this person isn't me any more. The bad associations of LegalFirstName (it rhymes with just about every rude word in my birth language and got me bullied a lot) have worn down by now, but I don't feel addressed by it. In fact when I was in a waiting room a while ago and the nurse called out LegalName because that was on the forms, it took a while to register because I was reading and it didn't hit the "someone calls me by name!" override.

I do like and use MaidenLastname again, more or less to honour my father who died a couple of years ago.

[Nick the Australian]

Star Trek: TNG is an odd one when it comes to names. They actually use first names rather a lot -- Geordi La Forge, Tasha Yar and Deanna Troi are each almost always called Geordi, Tasha and Deanna, even when they're on duty. I would have said that it was only the more senior officers who don't get addressed by first name on duty -- i.e. Captain Picard, Commander Riker, and Doctor Crusher (who is a Commander) -- but Wesley Crusher is also mostly "Mr Crusher" when he's on duty and he's the most junior of them all. (Data and Worf, of course, each have only one name.)

[This Wicked Day]

Literata, thank you for this post, and thank you (though it's a small detail) for the title. I like "given name" as a noun phrase because it foregrounds the fact that names are something bestowed on us - that they don't just come magically attached when a child is born. And there is at least some social acknowledgement that gifts can be unwanted or unsuitable no matter how well-intentioned the giver (whereas there seems to be much more resistance to changing or getting rid of aspects of oneself that are seen as innate.)

I have a very rare first name and a common last name; as far as I know, I'm the only one. I do show up on Google, but it's mainly old scores from the sport I did as a kid and a few university things - my online identity as TWD is not linked to any of the real-world stuff, and that's how I like to keep it. Also there was an early twentieth-century author/illustrator who had my names among others (MyFirstName MyLastName AnotherName AnotherName) who accounts for a lot of the Google results. Usually you have to go through at least two pages of her before you get to me.

Offline I'm FirstName LastName pretty much everywhere, but my partner goes by three different names at work, to his family and among friends, and they are three distinctly different bits of his life. There's some overlap between the family and friends brackets, but he's said that he can't imagine being called MiddleName at work or FirstName by friends - it would just be /weird/. We aren't married and don't own anything or have bank accounts jointly - don't show up together on anything official, I believe - so I haven't yet been addressed with his surname ... but it's probably only a matter of time.

[Literata]

Nick, that actually seems kind of reasonable to me - the mid-level officers are all sufficiently established in their rank/identity and simultaneously comfortable to go mostly by first names. IIRC, when they go up in rank - as in the episode that highlights the challenges of the process for Troi - there's a subtle change in the level of deference/titles. I always thought Wesley was called "Mr. Crusher" to remind him that he was supposed to be in "adult mode" on duty.

TWD: I'm glad you liked it. I picked that title after having already written the last line, and I love puns/multiple meanings.

[Punkyfins]

@Julezyme: "Ever since I can remember I have been correcting people about my first name. I'd introduce myself as JuliAAAAA and still a good percentage of the time people would call me JuliE. Not that there's anything wrong with the name Julie, necessarily. But it is a distinct name that is not mine. And I am emphatically *not* a Julie. It chafes. It doesn't fit. It is not me."
This made me laugh, because with me it's the exact opposite. People don't seem to *get* that it's not Juli-ah, but Julie. *chuckles* Julia was the name of our queen mother! There's nothing wrong with the name, but it isn't mine. Jules, fine. Jule also fine. But why make it Julia?

I'm usually referred to as ms legallastname as i don't use my title. (By which i mean my own last name. I'm not the marrying kind, but even if i were: i'd still keep my own name). Friends colleagues and so on call me Julie (or abbreviations thereof like Jule or even Jules, both of which i rather like because they're not so very woman-specific).
Here, people sometimes use the diminuative. It doesn't exist in the English language but translates as "little-firstname" which is kinda, well, gross. It's comparable to calling someone named 'Gwen' 'Gwennie' which is way too familiar. Unless there is a *very* good reason to do that: it's totally innapropriate. And it's usually done to women and with a rather horrid subtext.

Online i'm called Punkyfins (or abbreviations thereof, like Finsey or 'Fins neither of which i mind). This here is an exeption in that i normally insist being adressed by my online moniker when, well, online. I don't like people using my given first name. This is for rather obvious privacy reasons, because i don't want a future employer pouring over my political and social views.

Thank you for the article, a very good read and very insightful. Particularly because i have the rather horrid habit of giving people nicknames. It's out of affection, nothing more, but it isn't a good habit and your article @Literata is very clear on why. Thank you for the insight.

[Lonespark]

I haven't read nor seen The Help, and don't plan to. I wonder if seeing the movie would be kind of good in the sense that then movies with roles for black female actors would make some money. But I don't know that the money people would look at it that way, and clearly it doesn't need my help. But my mom and her friends have all read it and liked it and won't stop talking about it and AAAAAARGH.

I found a super-excellent antidote to this be finishing Filter House by Nisi Shawl. I originally started it in an effort to read more super-awesome scifi and fantasy, and of course it delivers there and the stories are so incredibly brilliant and well-written and the characters and and and...ok, so maybe squee isn't a helpful review, it's supposed to be substantive squee. It's a powerful work and hopefully required reading in some places.

[Lonespark]

I also have a project to increase the diversity of my scifi/fantasy reading. So far in service of this I have read

The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms and The Broken Kingdoms by N. K. Jemisin and I cannot wait for The Kingdom of the Gods to come out.

Brown Girl in the Ring by Nalo Hopkinson.

Racing the Dark by Alaya Dawn Johnson.

Silver Phoenix: Beyond the Kingdom of Xia can't remember the author, got it from the library but I think there's a sequel coming and I'll buy that.

King Maker by Maurice Broaddus.

Of course most of those are the beginnings of series so now I have a really bad case of OMG WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?!?! I'd recommend all of them. Several are a bit more horror than I normally go for. More happy-ish endings than not, though.

[Amaryllis]

Just passing through...

For a nonfiction look at the civil rights movement and the lives of black women, there's At the Dark End of the Street, by Danielle McGuire.

Adding to the sci-fi/fantasy diversity list, Nnedi Okorafor's adult novel Who Fears Death (with trigger warnings for every horror you can think of), and her YA novels, Zahrah the Windspeaker and Akata Witch.

Also, Rick Riordan, of "Percy Jackson" fame, has a new series based on Egyptian mythology with a pair of mixed-race siblings as protagonists. I've recently read the first in the series, and I have mixed feelings about it, but at least it's a change from the familiar Greek myths and European folklore.

[RodeoBob]

First thought on names: I worked in the 2010 U.S. Census, and one of the lasting elements from the training I got was a very simple concept: the Census workers were to go to the house, and ask the person to identify themselves. We were not to make assumptions about race, age, ethnicity, or gender. If a 6'6" bald, masculine man with skin the color of coal answered the door and identified himself as "Tiffany VonStoot"*, a Russian female, then that is what we wrote down! That basic concept ("You tell me who you are, I do not tell you who you are") remains impressed upon me. At my day-job, we have a "Deborah" pronounced 'De-Bohr-a'. That's who she is, according to her, so that's what we call her, without a second thought.

Nicknames are an extension of this: you have the basic right to be called by whatever name(s) you want to be called, and conversely, have an expectation not to be addressed by names you don't like.

Second thought: my ex-wife was Latino, and she was named after an Aztec goddess. Living in Southern California, it wasn't a big deal, but when she moved out of state to live with me in a much whiter area, her name constantly drew attention. "Wow, what an unusual name!" followed by "How do you say it?" followed by "What does it mean? Where is it from?" I very quickly came to see that those kinds of questions are a form of white privilege. Five years after moving here, she was still getting those questions on a regular basis whenever she paid for anything with a credit card, or had to make an appointment with her legal name. (doctor, vet, etc.) My takeaway was simple: a person's name is the word you use to speak to or about them, and you have no right or expectation to know if its anything more, especially in casual company. My day job, in addition to a DeBorah, also as a Jerusalem and a Psyche. I have never felt the urge to ask either of them the origins of their names, or what they "mean"; those are their names, and that's all there is to it. Remarking on an unusual (to you) name is a way of othering someone, and I'm trying not to do that.

Third thought on names: I watched "An Evening with Kevin Smith", and one thing that stood out for me was how Kevin Smith spoke to and with his longtime friend and collaborator Jason Mews. When speaking to each other, they made frequent, almost exclusive use of the honorific "sir". Not in a mocking or sarcastic way, just "Excuse me, sir, would you mind grabbing that water for me? Thank you sir!" It was a good illustration: here's a guy famous for writing dick-and-fart jokes, happy to be seen with a chip on his shoulder or bucking the system, and with his close friend, he uses a formal, respectful address. Along the same arc of thought, years ago I had a college professor who insisted academia had become too casual, and required that in his class, everyone (teacher and students) would be addressed by their last name, along with Mr. or Ms. It was an interesting environment, no less so for being community college where my classmates ranged from 18 to 65 but where everyone was "Mr. Jones" and "Ms. Smith". My takeaway from these two elements is that formality, not as custom or ritual, but as deliberate choice, can communicate a degree of respect and regard quickly, effectively, and easily.

On a personal note, I have a nickname (not my handle here) that I've been using for around half my life; I've never given it much thought, except that it's what people call me. Well, it's what people who I choose as company call me. (as compared to family and co-workers) How that 'identity' connects to who I am, and how I earn a living, and what presence I have on-line versus in real life... those are questions I'm just not interested in tackling.

*The name used is completely fictitious. Any personally identifiable information I may or may not have learned during my work as a Census worker is confidential, and any exotic names I saw I cannot reveal until my 115th birthday, as I swore an 80-year oath of confidentiality. I can tell you that on at least one occasion, asking about gender got a response of "well, legally or...?", to which the reply was "You tell me who you are, and I write it down. I don't tell you who you are."

[Froborr]

You tell me who you are, I do not tell you who you are

I love it.

[Izzy]

Interesting stuff!

All three of my names are reasonably rare; my first and last get misspelled a lot. (My first also gets changed to "Elizabeth" on a semi-regular basis.) Perhaps because of that, or perhaps because I play a lot of LARP characters, I don't really care what people call me*: I've had Isabel, Izzy**, and, briefly, "Red". That last one was cool; made me feel rather like a secret agent or something.

I also deal with pseudonyms--not so much because I have a problem with what I write, but because my actual last name sounds harsh for one of the genres I write in. So I'm Isabel Cooper for romance and Isabel Kunkle for YA and short stories.

I cannot actually keep a straight face, or at least avoid rolling my eyes, when confronted with "RavenWolf" or "SilverMermaid". That's one of the reasons I tend to avoid big pagan gatherings: there are always a few of those, so I prefer to stick with people I know will not force me to pretend to take that sort of thing seriously. If names are important enough to change yours, they're also important enough that you shouldn't get the new one from the sort of inspirational art you find at highway rest stops.

I use first names for most of my acquaintances, including work, but titles for anyone I don't know very well who's older than me or in authority, unless asked to stop. There are a couple people, like some of my ex-teachers, who I wouldn't feel at all comfortable calling by their first names.

And the military title thing interests me: I'm currently playing a CPO in a space marine kind of game, and all of the other PCs are Lieutenants or higher. It definitely changes your attitude to address someone as "sir" all the time--and really helps me get in character.

*As far as nicknames. "Baby"...no. The chick from Dirty Dancing can have that.
**My maternal grandmother, on hearing my mom's decision on my first name, responded with "You can't name her that! People will call her Izzy!" in horrified tones. Apparently that sort of nickname was Not Done in her era.

[Laiima]

@Lonespark: Have you read Octavia Butler?

[Froborr]

@Izzy: I struggle with that, too. I've had teachers *ask* to be addressed by their first names, and it's really difficult to comply!

Teacher-student is the only situation in which I have that issue. For everything else, either I'm happy to call you by whichever name you prefer and either no title or a title of respect(Mr./Ms./Mrs./Professor/Dr., maybe some others I'm forgetting).

"Sir" and "ma'am," however, are part of the spectrum of titles of deference, rather than respect (they are, I think, the lowest level, with the highest being things like "Your Majesty" and "Your Eminence"), and I will not use them except ironically or under duress.

[Froborr]

@Izzy: Oddly, my grandfather (who I'm assuming is probably roughly the same generation as your grandmother--born around the time of WWI?) was also nicknamed Izzy, in English anyway. (In Hebrew his nickname was Idor, both from the same name, Isador).

[Rodeobob]

On being called "RavenWolf" or "SilverMermaid"... I'm not saying you can't pick your own name, but you probably shouldn't pick a name for yourself that wouldn't pick for someone else. Some of the best nicknames are those that lie in the middle ground of "people who know me thought this up" and "I can accept and embrace this".

Froborr, I understand your perspective about "Sir" being part of the spectrum of titles of deference. I guess intentionally chosing to use those titles with my peers (with whom no deference is expected nor offered) would be an "ironic" use (not a *sarcastic* use!) that shows some affection and regard, especially if they return the usage in the same spirit.

[Froborr]

but you probably shouldn't pick a name for yourself that wouldn't pick for someone else

This rule probably doesn't work for me, as my ideas of good names for children run to things like "Hat Elbow Blue" and "Sir Bahamut de Alkirk Jones III".

[Phoenix]

I have a feeling this wasn't posting due to length. So this is... not my first try, and if it appears more than once I will self-surrender to the sheep.

@Laiima (more Help discussion; if the ROT-13 is bugging anyone else, I'd be more than happy to drop it):

Fxrrgre evfxrq ure erchgngvba naq cbgragvnyyl wnvy gvzr, lrf, ohg Nvovyrra, Zvaal, naq gur bgure znvqf evfxrq gurve wbof/yviryvubbqf, fnsrgl, naq yvirf.

V'z abg nethvat gung gur evfxf jrer rdhny. V guvax vg'f cerggl boivbhf gung gurl jrera'g. V jnf bayl cbvagvat bhg gung Fxrrgre gbbx evfxf naq znqr fnpevsvprf gbb, naq gur ynggre vapyhqrq ure svefg oblsevraq rire (nygubhtu, nf lbh cbvag bhg, vg qbrf raq orggre sbe ure guna vg qbrf sbe gur znvqf; snve cbvag gurer).

Zrnajuvyr, Fxrrgre ehaf bss gb Arj Lbex gb gnxr n terng wbo! V ernyyl ungrq gung fprar jvgu Nvovyrra naq Zvaal hetvat Fxrrgre gb tb.

Gur guvat nobhg orvat n wbheanyvfg, gubhtu, vf gung lbh graq gb nvz sbe gur ynetrfg cbffvoyr nhqvrapr lbh pna trg - naq gung tbrf qbhoyr vs lbh'er jevgvat ntnvafg guvatf gung n ynetr ahzore bs crbcyr unir vagreanyvmrq nf gehgu. Gurer'f n yvzvgrq qvssrerapr gung lbh pna znxr nf ybat nf lbh'er fghpx va Fznyygbja, HFN.

Fb vs V jrer Fxrrgre, V jbhyq unir gnxra gung wbo va n frpbaq gbb - abg whfg orpnhfr vg jnf gur orfg bccbeghavgl sbe zr crefbanyyl, ohg NYFB orpnhfr gung'f jurer V jbhyq svaq n zhpu ynetre nhqvrapr sbe gur guvatf V unq gb fnl. Gur rqvgbe gung uverq ure xabjf fur unf n xanpx sbe fcbggvat gur qveg bs fbpvrgl gung ab bar ryfr jnagf gb ybbx sbe naq znxvat n pbzcryyvat fgbel bs vg. Vs fur'f n unys-qrprag rqvgbe, fur'f tbvat gb tvir Fxrrgre fbzr vzcbegnag cvrprf naq gur bccbeghavgl gb rnea na rkcbaragvnyyl ynetre ernqrefuvc guna fur rire pbhyq unir rawblrq va Wnpxfba. Vs Fxrrgre vf n unys-qrprag ercbegre, fur'f tbvat gb erpbtavmr gung bccbeghavgl sbe jung vg vf. Fur'f tbvat gb ernyvmr gung ure jbex svtugvat sbe pvivy evtugf unf oneryl ortha.

V jbhyq yvxr gb guvax fur xarj gung fur jnf va sbe n ybat-grez svtug urer naq jnf gnxvat gur arkg ybtvpny fgrc jura fur npprcgrq gung wbo. Abg gung gurer'f nal fhpu guvat nf n pbzcyrgryl nygehvfgvp zbgvir (rfcrpvnyyl jura lbh'er qbvat fbzrguvat gung unccraf gb pbeerfcbaq jvgu lbhe yvsrybat qernz) ohg V qba'g guvax vg'f vapbaprvinoyr gung gur bccbeghavgl gb pbagvahr fcrnxvat bhg ntnvafg bccerffvba cynlrq vagb ure gubhtug cebprff naq V guvax Nvovyrra naq Zvaal jrer jvfr rabhtu gb frr vg gbb. Fur unq qbar nyy fur pbhyq qb gurer; gvzr gb tb funxr guvatf hc fbzrjurer ryfr.

Puneybggr'f npgvbaf jrer pregnvayl qrcybenoyr. Ohg V guvax gung gur zbivr qvq n tbbq wbo cbegenlvat gurz nf qrcybenoyr. Fur frrzf gb haqrefgnaq gung ure npgvbaf ner irel pbjneqyl - rira gunaxf Fxrrgre sbe oevatvat pbhentr onpx gb ure snzvyl, zragvbavat gung fbzrgvzrf vg fxvcf n trarengvba. Vg qbrfa'g rkphfr jung fur qvq (naq qvqa'g qb) ohg ng yrnfg fur fnj ure bja pbjneqvpr sbe jung vg jnf - gung'f gur svefg fgrc gbjneq orpbzvat zber pbhentrbhf.

V qvq ernyvmr gung Zvaal vf gbyq "fur unf n wbo sbe yvsr", ohg gung wbo vf jnvgvat ba juvgr crbcyr unaq naq sbbg sbe 8-12 ubhef n qnl. Qvq gur Sbbgrf ng yrnfg qbhoyr ure jntrf? Gerng ure yvxr na rdhny? V fnj ab fvtaf bs vg.

Ernyyl? V gubhtug gur fprar jurer Wbuaal naq Pryvn znxr ure qvaare naq nfx ure gb fvg naq rng jvgu gurz ng gurve bja gnoyr jnf n pyrne fvtany gung gurl gubhtug bs ure nf na rdhny naq vagraqrq gb gerng ure nf fhpu. V qba'g erzrzore guvf orvat rkcynvarq va gur zbivr ohg va gur obbx, Pryvn qbrf va snpg nterr gb cnl qbhoyr jung Zvaal znqr ng ure ynfg wbo ($2/ue gb Uvyyl'f $1/ue). Gunaxf gb gur vapernfrq jntr, Zvaal jnf npghnyyl jbexvat srjre ubhef naq znxvat zber zbarl guna fur qvq ng Uvyyl'f. Fur unq ragver jrrxraqf bss.

Zvaal jnfa'g rknpgyl guevyyrq jvgu gur neenatrzrag ng svefg fvapr fur jnf fb fpnerq Wbuaal jbhyq pngpu ure va gur ubhfr, ohg fur jnf qrsvavgryl abg orvat haqrecnvq (eryngviryl fcrnxvat).

Nyfb, tvivat ure "n wbo sbe yvsr" jnf ab fznyy guvat, pbafvqrevat gur snpg gung Uvyyl unq ehvarq ure erchgngvba va gur rlrf bs onfvpnyyl rirelbar ryfr va gbja. V guvax gur snpg gung fur jnf crefban aba tengn naq gurl tnir ure n creznarag cynpr ertneqyrff vf n uhtr cbvag va gur Sbbgrf' snibe. Erzrzore gbb, Zvaal orpnzr n fvatyr zbz fubegyl gurernsgre. Sbe n fvatyr zbgure gung ab bar ryfr jvyy uver, thnenagrrq wbo frphevgl ng n uvtu-cnlvat wbo jvgu tbbq ubhef naq xvaq rzcyblref vf abguvat gb farrmr ng.

[Irina]

@Phoenix: @Laiima (more Help discussion; if the ROT-13 is bugging anyone else, I'd be more than happy to drop it)

Me not at all; I'm skipping this part anyway so that makes it easy to spot. (I know it's probably very important and relevant, but I don't intend to watch or read it anyway and two discussions at once is a bit much)

[Laiima]

@Phoenix: I guess my larger point is, I didn't really care what happened to Skeeter or any of the white women - I wanted to see a lot more about the maids. If all the black women's lives were the main plot; and Skeeter, Charlotte, Hilly, and the rest were minor subplots, I think I would've found the movie much more engaging.

[Phoenix]

@Laiima - there was more to my last comment which Typepad refuses to let me post, which is pretty frustrating but anyway, I can appreciate your point to some extent. I personally feel that the backgrounds of the maids got as much if not more attention than the backgrounds of the white women (we have no idea how Charlotte grew up, for example, yet we know that Aibileen's grandmother was a house slave) but I am planning to see the movie a second time tomorrow night and I'll be paying close attention to the things you've brought up here.

I'm disappointed that the film apparently wasn't as well-done as I first thought it was, but I still liked it.

Entreaty to Typepad... please let me post this? Pretty please?!

[MaryKaye]

Roleplaying is a great place to play with names.

I have a roleplaying character who is the daughter of aristocracy, but has claws and horns (indicative of something bad in the family tree) and People Like That are not aristocrats in her society. So she grew up (thanks to unusually tolerant parents) alongside her human-looking twin sister Lily, but not acknowledged as such, and she was just called "Blackie" as a nickname. I don't think she was ever given a legal name.

Lily is now the acting ruler of the city, and recently took public steps to legitimate Blackie and make her her heir. It's a period of severe civil upheaval, and Lily has taken ruthless advantage of that. Her position is currently so strong that no one dares tell her she can't have a devil-spawn as her heir--at least so far.

In the last playing session, another PC introduced Blackie to a ranking military commander as "Lady Blackie Varuna." Blackie's shocked reaction to this was really interesting to play through. She knew it intellectually but it's different actually *hearing* it, and to a stranger and potential enemy no less.

She pulled herself up straighter, spoke to him as she imagined Lily would have, and promptly made a series of rather bad decisions by trying to emulate Lily (she has neither the training nor the temperament to pull it off). It seemed clear that the character understood "Lady Blackie Varuna" to be quite a different person than "Blackie" and was having trouble making the transition.

She also trips over the fact that "Blackie" is a rather nickname-ish thing to be calling a noblewoman, and has been heard muttering "Lotus? Raven? Shade? Midnight?" to herself in an attempt to find a formal name--so far without success.

(It is initially obvious that Lily is the Good Twin; a little consideration suggests that things have been ironically reversed and Lily is the Bad Twin; in fact it's more complicated than that. Lily is the sweet-tongued diplomat who will read your mind while negotiating with you and then order you killed if she doesn't like what she finds. Blackie is her devil's advocate, happy to argue for mercy when Lily is being ruthless, equally happy to call for someone's death when Lily is being squeamish. Perhaps she is, deep down, the better of the two, though the amount of blood on those claws is appalling. In any case they're a team, and use the whole Good/Bad Twin thing to their advantage. They are neither of them nice people, though I love them dearly.)

[Phoenix]

As I'm reading the new comments, a question occurs to me for the parents on this thread: What would you do if your child disliked or even hated hir given name (not nickname versions of the name, but the actual name) and wanted to legally change it? Would you allow that? Would you accept the new name? Would it upset you? Would the child's age be a factor? Would you be able to explain it to relatives and friends without mocking hir choice?

My impression is that for many if not most parents, the names of their children are very, very carefully chosen and special. They often have particular meaning to the parents which is sometimes tied to their expectations for that child.

And I know that for my own parents it was pretty upsetting when I started using a different name* - which was understandable, and hope I didn't attempt to insist that they use my new name (I might have - I don't really remember- but I hope I didn't).

But while part of me feels like a person generally ought to accept hir given name, another part of me feels strongly (especially after reading this thread) that part of respecting the autonomy of one's child is letting them decide what name they want to use - and that may not be the name that you pick out for them.

Not being a parent, though, I'm interested in hearing other takes on this.

*I think part of the reason it was so upsetting was because it was a small aspect of a larger rebellion against them in which I was engaged at the time, after a lifetime of being the dutiful and obedient daughter. Obviously, I am completely fine with them using my given name today.

[MaryKaye]

When we were arranging to adopt my son, he wrote a twelve-point list of requests. One of them was that he keep his name intact. The social workers argued strenuously that we should not do this, as re-naming an adopted child is "claiming", but we stuck with my son's preference. As a result, the three of us in the household now sport three different family names, but it hasn't been too bad--less bureaucratic trouble than I expected. (The only trouble is that many people, hearing our standard phone greeting of "Lastname-lastname-lastname, MaryKaye speaking", assume we are a business.)

He also insists that his given name not be shortened: I hear other people calling him by the obvious nickname, but we never do.

If he decided to change his name I think we'd just go with it. He's had so many of his life decisions made for him by someone else, often badly, that we try to leave him as many as we can. (We've occasionally gotten burned going too far in that direction.)

I don't know how I'd feel if I'd been the one naming him, since I've never named a child. When my stepfather legally adopted me, the judge asked me if I wanted to change my first name at the same time, since it would be all part of the same job as changing my family name to his. I had not even considered this, and spent a couple of dizzy minutes trying to decide if I really wanted to be Llywella instead of MaryKaye. I decided against it, though. When I mentioned this to my parents afterwards I discovered that this decision would have encountered a lot of friction, but then, it *was* fairly frivolous--it's not as though anyone had ever called me that.

They did support my decision to be, at various times, Mary or MaryKaye, and my siblings' rejections of their nicknames (Benny and Gwynnie, no wonder, I would've too!)

[Dragoness Eclectic]

I always thought Wesley was called "Mr. Crusher" to remind him that he was supposed to be in "adult mode" on duty.

He's called that because "Mr." is the traditional form of address for a Midshipman (aka Academy cadet on his first cruise). It may also be used for Ensigns, I'm not certain about that.

[Phoenix]

The social workers argued strenuously that we should not do this, as re-naming an adopted child is "claiming", but we stuck with my son's preference.

Please tell me you're referring to the child's surname - I can't imagine the stress of trying to take on an entirely new first name that my new family got to choose for me as I was getting ready to embark on a new life, probably in a new town and school as well. I can see the logic in changing the surname (although I think you were quite right in respecting his choice not to change that one either) but dictating a new first name to an adopted child seems horribly restrictive and wrong to me.

You sound like a wonderful parent, by the way. I always enjoy reading about your son and the things you choose to share about your journey adopting him.

[Laiima]

I've been amazed (more like appalled) at how many times people hear the Nickname I go by and assume they know how it's spelled. I often sign it on cards and emails, and still they never notice they are spelling it wrong. Last year I got a personalized gift from in-laws, and my face fell when I opened the package to see the same misspelling. I really could not thank them for a gift I would never want to wear.

If I stop going by my first name, I will have to ditch the nickname since it's a diminutive of a name I've never liked; why drag it into a new life as someone else?

[Irina]

What would you do if your child disliked or even hated hir given name (not nickname versions of the name, but the actual name) and wanted to legally change it? Would you allow that? Would you accept the new name? Would it upset you? Would the child's age be a factor? Would you be able to explain it to relatives and friends without mocking hir choice?

We gave our three daughters three names each so they'd have something to choose from if they wanted a change from their use-name (first given name in every case until now). This was also what my parents-in-law did, while my own parents preferred one short name that couldn't be nicknamified -- a very bad choice as it turned out, and one that I wanted to avoid inflicting on any child of mine.

They're all in their mid- to late teens now and none of them has wanted to use a different name yet, not even a nickname (in fact only the middle one had a nickname briefly, as a toddler: her twin couldn't pronounce "Rebecca" and called her "Ebba", and we all took it up). If they did, it would probably be all right with me; after all, I changed mine, who am I to complain? I know that the name you're given is just that, a gift, that you can grow out of or dislike for any reason whatever. I don't know what I'd think if they wanted a name not in the set they've been provided with, but I'd probably get used to that too.

Changing one's legal name in this country is an expensive hassle, and they'd have to pay for that themselves! But other than financially, chances are that I'd support them in every way.

[sarah]

I work at a small college where all of the staff and faculty are pretty much on a first-name basis with each other, from the president on down. And a lot of the students call their faculty by their first names. I think it's slightly different because it's an art school, so most of the faculty are working artists rather than PhDs. The exception to that is our liberal arts department, and even that is pretty loose in terms of names. My students all call me by my first name.

I worked at a shelter for homeless women for a while, and some of the women called me "Miss Sarah," which was odd to me, because I was (at 23) a lot younger than them. If they called me "Miss Sarah," I usually called them "Miss [Name]" back, just to level things out. There were enough power imbalances (race, class, etc) working there without adding names to it.

Nicknames: my dad has a nickname for me that really only he calls me. In college people called me "Boston" (too many Sarahs). I had a friend in high school who called me "Tiny" because I was the smallest out of my friends.

[hapax]

@MaryKaye: seconding that I find inspiration and grace in your parenting stories. Maybe someday you'll feel like writing up a post for the Slacktiverse on the topic?

@Phoenix: What would you do if your child disliked or even hated hir given name (not nickname versions of the name, but the actual name) and wanted to legally change it?

We gave each of our children four names: two "first" names, and two "surnames" (only one of the latter was either of our surnames). We always told them they could "pick any two" whenever they wanted.

Since both Spouse and I chose to go by our middle names later in life, we're both pretty sensitive to the need to define oneself by one's name. I'd like to think I'd be perfectly fine with whatever my kids chose. (Although if one of them selected something like "Sphanx Da57er" I'd probably find it difficult to keep a straight face).

But while taking the importance of self-chosen names seriously doesn't mean that it's easy to break habits, either. My teenage son has recently requested that I not use one of my nicknames for him ("Bug") in public -- "although I like it when it's just us" he assured me earnestly -- and I can certainly see how it might open him up for all sorts of teasing, I really have to be careful at policing myself to keep it from slipping out.

(and now I'm looking at that last sentence and attempting to diagram it in my mind. Uggh.)

[Rodeobob]

What would you do if your child disliked or even hated hir given name (not nickname versions of the name, but the actual name) and wanted to legally change it?

My older brother hated the "formal" version of his name (Andrew) but liked the "short" version. (Andy) My parents allowed him to legally change his name when he was in high school. Amusingly enough, several years later, he had a new "chosen name" (Drue) that he goes by to this day, but his legal name remains "Andy".

Based on that, I'd say that while I have no issue with calling a child by their preferred name, wanting to legally change their name is something I'd delay until they were of legal age to do it themselves. With one clear exception:

If all we're talking about is a name, and we're talking about the legal identity on paper, that's one thing. ("Andrew" to "Andy") If it's a deeper issue, like... gender identity ("Andrew" to "Drusilla") then refusing to support that identity by making them wait until they're 18 seems unaccepting and borderline cruel.

Part of growing up is exploring your own identity, testing and changing boundaries, and that includes nicknames and different ways of being addressed. These "trial periods" are normal, common, and frequent, so my compromise of "the mail is still addressed to Andrew, but everyone in the family calls you Andy" feels like an appropriate middle-ground for a young person still defining their identity.

[Rakka]

Oo, names. I just recently got annoyed at a person who keeps using my legal first name in communication, when the only thing he has to support that decision is the From-field in email. In every social context we've met in I've introduced myself as Rakka, other people call me Rakka, and I sign my emails as Rakka. But no, can't take the bloody hint. Of course, a background in IRC-heavy social group leads to people using their IRC handles in face to face interaction as well, and personally I just can't remember most people's "real" names. And currently hanging out in a group with long tradition of bestowed nicknames, so...

I'm planning to use the expiration of my ID as an excuse to take Rakka as third legal first name. Then I wouldn't have to use l.f.n. as a handle for formal occasions and answering phone calls from new numbers.

Beloved has had hell lot more hassle with her name due to reason I'm not going to go into even here. As a result of that I'm very twitchy with people using old names of people who've gone through the trouble to legally change their names. It's nobody else's business to deny someone their chosen identity.

[Laiima]

@Phoenix, when I first legally changed my surname, my parents and various other family members let me know they didn't approve because they refused to use it. They made little effort to learn to spell it or pronounce it correctly. Some people in my extended family, including my father, almost 20 years later *still* cannot spell it or pronounce it correctly. It's not impossible to do either - strangers manage it. This is their way of registering their disapproval, and ignoring my boundaries/stated wishes.

My mother was ecstatic when I met the person who became my spouse, and she had no problem whatsoever calling me Mrs SpouseLastName, even though I told her I was not going to take his last name.

Some months ago, Spouse and I re-watched our wedding video so we could transfer it to another tape. Our videographer captured for eternity the notice outside our reception hall: "Wedding of Bride's name and Groom's name" was instead, "Wedding of Bride's-Family-Name (NOT Bride's Surname) and Groom's Name". My mother did that deliberately! I'm sure if I called her on it she would've protested, "it was easier for everyone this way!" but easier for who? I'm not sure my mother has yet figured out in some fundamental way that I am not in fact an extension of her, but a separate human being. She's probably still telling people how my wedding was exactly like the dream she'd always had of my wedding. It was nothing whatsoever like the wedding *I* dreamed of. Our wedding video clearly shows that my mother was the star of the day, and Spouse and I were like naughty children who kept sneaking in where they weren't wanted.

[cjmr]

I've told my children (well the two old enough to understand what it means at any rate) that they are free to change their names when they are adults, and their nicknames at any time. Also, when (if) they get confirmed they'll have the opportunity to choose an additional middle name for themselves (as long as it is a saint's name) that they can go by as well.

That said, I'd be a more than a little upset if they decided to change their first names since they all carry great meaning to me.

(So far cjmr's older daughter wants to change her middle name to that of her very much loved, now deceased, pet. We're hoping she'll grow out of this phase.)

[Phoenix]

@Laiima - Wow, that's awful. Considering other things you have posted about your mother... it's not altogether surprising. But WOW, all the same. Not a good wow.

My family didn't call me by my new name either - they still don't, nor do my pre-switch friends. In the case of my immediate family, I consider that their prerogative - partially because, well, they raised me as [Givenname] and partially because, as I mentioned, the switch came during an otherwise extremely difficult time for them - I don't think Phoenix was ever "their daughter" so much as the person who swooped in out of nowhere to take their daughter from them. The fact that I was living thousands of miles away from them and we were barely speaking when I became Phoenix did not help matters. Nor did my clumsy attempts to explain what was going on when I really didn't understand it myself, and wouldn't for many years to come.

Things in my family are good now, and I would certainly not wish to insist on being called by a name that is associated (for them) with so much pain.

With my friends - eh. I would've liked them to embrace my new name* and it hurt for awhile that they wouldn't, especially if they laughed it off. However, I've come to acknowledge that the way people know me counts for something too. It's not All About Me.

The people who know me as [Givenname]... they don't know Phoenix all that well. I've come to be okay with that. As I said, Phoenix is a more private sort. The people who met me as Phoenix knew a very different person than the people who met [Givenname]. That was a special time, and it didn't last that long. Since I currently go by [Givenname] again, the people who still call me Phoenix because that's who they know are very rare and special friends. But it's not like I don't have rare and special friends who call me [Givenname] too. It's a different relationship, for sure, but one is neither better nor worse than the other.

It's just different. And that's okay because these days I am at peace with the fact that I am fully Phoenix and fully [Givenname]. The tension that creates on occasion is part of what makes me who I am.

*Only one did - zie eventually switched back to calling me [Givenname] and that was fine with me - but I loved that zie called me Phoenix for awhile. We were living together at the time, and it was mostly thanks to hir that the name really took hold and "felt" like mine as opposed to some little game I was playing. Zie took Phoenix seriously, the only person during the transition to do so, and I never forgot that.

[Deird, whose middle name is her grandmother's name]

My impression is that for many if not most parents, the names of their children are very, very carefully chosen and special. They often have particular meaning to the parents which is sometimes tied to their expectations for that child.

I suspect that my family would be slightly more upset with the middle names being changed. Middle names in my family tend to have special meaning (like "Louis" or "Louise" being the middle name of the second child).

He also insists that his given name not be shortened: I hear other people calling him by the obvious nickname, but we never do.

My boyfriend's mother is "Lizzy" to her family, but has made it very clear that she dislikes being called that by people who haven't known her for several decades. At family functions, she's "Mum", "Grandma", and "Lizzy" to everyone there except me - and I very carefully call her "Elizabeth". And will continue to do so until she informs me I have Lizzy-rights.

[Kit Whitfield]

As I'm reading the new comments, a question occurs to me for the parents on this thread: What would you do if your child disliked or even hated hir given name (not nickname versions of the name, but the actual name) and wanted to legally change it? Would you allow that? Would you accept the new name? Would it upset you? Would the child's age be a factor? Would you be able to explain it to relatives and friends without mocking hir choice?

Well, I chose my son's name with love, so I'd be sorry if he didn't like it. But then, we gave him his name, which means it's his. And if it's his, he can do what he wants with it. His tastes are already different from mine at just under a year old, so it could happen. I'd just hope I liked his new choice - but if I didn't, well, I might say so to my husband, but I'd try to be gracious about it to him. I don't see it as something I'd have the right to allow or not allow; I couldn't control how he introduced himself to other people, nor should I.

It's the same logic we gave him his surname, actually. His full name is Nathaniel Rhys Whitfield Thomas, and of those, Whitfield Thomas is his official last name. I kept my name and my husband kept his, so we figured we'd give the boy both - but on the understanding that if he wanted to drop one of them later in life, that was up to him and we shouldn't compete or take it personally.

Basically, I see names like I see gifts: you hope they're liked, but if they're not, they're not, and it's just destructive to make a big issue out of it.

Mind you, I say this as the mother of a child who has a vocabulary of about four words. What I'll feel when he gets old enough to express his opinions in more detail remains to be seen.

[Froborr]

@Laiima: That kind of story is why NO ONE other than my fiancee and I is being permitted to make any decisions of any sort regarding our wedding. We've turned down some offers that would have saved us quite a bit of money (and, therefore, meant significantly less time spent saving) because we couldn't trust the person offering to respect our wishes.

[Phoenix]

Based on that, I'd say that while I have no issue with calling a child by their preferred name, wanting to legally change their name is something I'd delay until they were of legal age to do it themselves.

@RodeoBob - I like your take on this (including the circumstances under which you'd be inclined to make an exception) but a logistical detail occurs to me. If they're positive they want to change their name legally, it might be easier to do it while they were still in high school before they started opening bank accounts, applying for colleges, networking for future careers, possibly moving to a new state, etc.

Just a thought. For me, this might be outweighed by the desire to have my kids making as few adult-level decisions as possible until they were legally recognized as such. But maybe not. It would depend a lot on the reasons for the change, like you said.

[MaryKaye]

My spouse and I called our respective families and said "We're getting married in the municipal court in two weeks and would be happy if you could attend." This displeased my grandmother and his mother mightily, but I have never regretted it, because it meant we got to enjoy our wedding. My grandmother was looking at the lower level of the Space Needle (one of my cousins was married there) and...oy vey. I didn't want to do it, I didn't want to pay for it, I didn't want to watch her stress herself out trying to do either of those.

My mother-in-law struck back by inviting us to her place for the following Fourth of July and then revealing that she had invited all the relatives we *should* have had at the wedding--about twenty of them, all Japanese, a severe test of my not-so-good ability to tell Japanese people apart. But at least it was her choice and her clean-up problem, and not my wedding.

I didn't take my spouse's family name, partly because I'm a published scientist under my maiden name, and partly because being a European woman with a Japanese name seemed likely to be awkward. It probably made my initial rocky relationship with his mother a bit rockier, but again, it's more our business than hers. We never did settle what to name kids, but then it turned out not to matter.

My brother's daughter is Athena Mothername Fathername, which seems quite reasonable. I suspect *her* name crisis will be trying to get out from under "Teenybop," which is what she is called particularly when she is in trouble. She'll do it, though. She is a young woman of very strong opinions. (Actually very strong opinions run in my family, and adopted son fits in perfectly in that regard.)

So, short form, I totally agree that couples should (unless they *want* someone else running the show) make their own wedding decisions, and that relatives should pipe down about it. If relatives want a party where everything is done the way they like, they can throw a party, as my MIL did. That's fair. (I was croggled by it, but privately, because it *was* fair.)

[Phoenix]

I kept my name and my husband kept his, so we figured we'd give the boy both - but on the understanding that if he wanted to drop one of them later in life, that was up to him and we shouldn't compete or take it personally.

@Kit - I like that! Surnames are a whole different can o'worms. I do plan to take on husband-elect's surname* - I like it a lot, and I'd prefer our entire family have the same one. In his family, it's tradition to give the first son his mother's maiden name as a middle name. So that's what we plan to do, and it's great because my maiden name is a lovely, noble male name. I wouldn't like it for a first name because I prefer names that are a bit unusual, but almost any first name that we pair with [Mylastname] [Ourlastname] will have a great ring to it.

But if I were keeping my last name, I think I'd do it the same way that you are.

*This is where having two first names comes in handy - I already think of my legal name as [Givenname] [Hislastname]. It feels like my name, and I like it, and I can't wait to start using it for real.

But I still consider my maiden name to be Phoenix's last name. And since it's not my legal name, I can do that! I like the idea of having my maiden name continue to be attached to my chosen identity - for me, the choice to include the name I eventually chose to accept with the name I chose for myself is a way of coming full-circle.

[Froborr]

My fiancee and I have talked at great length about the surname issue. We considered going with double last names or hyphenation, but she was concerned that any hypothetical grandkids could end up with FOUR surnames, and that gets silly fast.* So, long story short, we've decided to portmanteau our last names into one word, and BOTH change our names.

Also, MaryKaye, that seems kind of odd about your MIL being upset about you not taking his name. My understanding was that in Japanese tradition, newlyweds take the name of one or the other family, but it's not necessarily the man's.

*Actually, now that I think about it, I kind of like the idea of people having a formal surname that's their ENTIRE KNOWN FAMILY TREE, and an informal (but official and legal) surname that they pick at some sort of coming-of-age milestone.

[MaryKaye]

My MIL worried for some time that I was simply stealing her son, and declining to take her name didn't help there. She saw him as a dutiful Japanese boy all the way up till the point where he moved in with me, failed some classes, and dropped out of college. I don't totally blame her for seeing me as the villain of that story, though I do blame her for not noticing the clinical depression and the fact that he had been forced into a major in which he had minimal interest. (That seemed to be par for the course for Asian students at Berkeley in 1985. Of the five Asian students in my social circle, four were in family-chosen inappropriate majors, and none of those graduated.)

We do have a portmanteau name, designed by my sister, which we use for goofy things like our local wireless network and occasional Christmas cards, but we've never seriously thought about changing our names to it. For one thing, there are all those publications; and for another, it sounds Japanese enough that it probably means something, and I don't know what. I would hate to be like those folks who get a cute Asian language tattoo and find out when it's too late that it means "egg drop soup" or "clueless sucker".

(This might be the place to ask: anyone know what "Kumato" would mean? Or, closer to the pronunciation, "Kyumato"?)