(Nearly) Open Thread, June 18 2012

The Ontario government has now added gender orientation to those list of those things on which one cannot discriminate (along with gender, religions, etc.)

From The Toronto Star, Ontario Human Rights Code amended to protect transgendered people:

The human rights code, which marks its 50th anniversary Friday, is now expanded beyond just prohibiting prejudice based on “race, ancestry, place of origin, colour, ethnic origin, citizenship, creed, sex, sexual orientation, age, marital status, family status or disability.”

It took New Democrat MPP Cheri DiNovo (Parkdal—High Park) six years and four attempts to get the amendment passed.

“I’m proud, so proud, to be an Ontarian and so proud to be a Canadian and so proud to be part of an assembly where we’re all on the same page about this,” said DiNovo, praising Progressive Conservative MPP Christine Elliott (Whitby—Oshawa) and Liberal MPP Yasir Naqvi (Ottawa Centre) for co-sponsoring her bill.

What right(s) do you think should be added to (or taken from) the laws of your own country?

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Comments

[MercuryBlue]

Will be or should be? 'Cause, should be, I'm voting for the right to have a pregnancy-capable uterus and not be legally disadvantaged by it in any way, but will be, looks like the advances we've made in that area in the US are going down.

On the other hand, DOMA and Prop 8 look to be toast as soon as Justice Kennedy gets at them.

[Nick Kiddle]

Looks like we'll be getting marriage equality, complete with it actually being called marriage instead of having verbose separate-but-equal words for everything, at some point soon. Not sure it makes up for all the backward steps on immigration and disability rights though.

[Mmy]

Wow, I don't know how that draft version went up -- with a totally confusing sentence.

@MercuryBlue: I was thinking what right SHOULD be next. People are welcome to chime in with "will be."

In Ontario the provincial† government also just passed legislation to assure that students who want to form gay-straight alliances can CALL the groups gay-straight alliances. This was part of the anti-bullying legislation. There are both public and Catholic school systems in the province (although tax dollars pay for both) and the Roman Catholic authorities said that if the bishop/trustees didn't want the name gay-straight they should be allowed to forbid it.

The premier (a Catholic himself) put his foot down on that.

† Note: this was originally "provisional" which kisekileia pointed out. Using my vast powers as a member of TBAT I went back and fixed it. Then I added this note for transparency. Those who wish to theorize about what quirk of my brain would lead me to type "provisional" for "provincial" have at it.

[kisekileia]

Mmy, I think you meant "provincial" rather than "provisional"?

[Mmy]

@kisekileia: Yup, thanks. Fixed it. :)

[Sorbus]

About damn time. Pity I don't live in Ontario.

I'd like to see more gender identity protections in the US. Not sure this qualifies as a "rights"-based issue (although I'd call healthcare a basic right), but I'd also like to see the complexities of USian health insurance reduced. (Given that I am currently wrangling with a few thousand dollars of medical debt due to a hospitalization that was coded by my healthcare provider as being due to "Gender Identity Disorder", this is an issue near and dear to my own heart.)

[Mmy]

@Sorbus: Well we (Ontario) are still a mile behind Argentina where after recent changes in the law:

Argentina has put in place some of the most liberal rules on changing gender in the world, allowing people to alter their gender on official documents without first having to receive a psychiatric diagnosis or surgery.

The measure, which won unanimous support in the Senate this month, would also require public and private medical practitioners to provide free hormone therapy or gender reassignment surgery for those who want it — including those under the age of 18.

from The New York Times, Transgender Advocates Hail Law Easing Rules in Argentina, May 24, 2012.

[Ross]

"or taken from".. Hm. More and more I find myself questioning whether we really need quite such rigorous rights to the accumulation of private wealth. (I've been doing a bit of writing in a post-apcalyptic setting recently and have been trying to think through the implications of a scavenger civilization whose highest law was "No one shall deny any good or service to any person whose life, or health depends on it, except if the granting should impose similar peril to the life or health of the holder")

I received my company's benefit statement today, and I noticed that the "relationship" field has codes for "Spouse", "Legally Married Same-Sex Spouse", "Child" and "Child of Same-Sex Spouse".

[chris the cynic]

I'd like the right to free healthcare for everyone in the county. (Obviously this would require some serious work on the implementation side, single player would help.)

It feels like there should be some blanket thing that covers a lot of things that tend to get added individually. Like, a properly constructed broadly applicable right not to be discriminated against on the basis of gender/sex seems like it should also prevent discrimination against the non-heterosexual, the non-cis, and the non-binary, and also have the result that things like marriage equality would just fall into place. If that feeling is accurate then I'd like that right to come soon.

[Timothy (TRiG)]

I really must check up on the progress in Ireland on gender-recognition. Last I heard, the legal environment for trans people here was extremely tricky, with very little proper recognition, but there was some legislation in progress. I really must find out how that's going. I am not at all plugged in enough to what's happening in this country.

a properly constructed broadly applicable right not to be discriminated against on the basis of gender/sex

That makes sense to me, chris. Isn't that what the South African constitution (which I recently learned was written on a kitchen table in Dublin) has, which is why a court there found the right to same-sex marriage? I should check that, too.

***

In terms of progress I'd like to see, I want a referendum here to amend the constitution to remove the religious oaths which need to be sworn by judges, the President, and a few others. They have to swear by "Almighty God", so it's monotheists only.

TRiG.

[Mmy]

amend the constitution

Of the Republic of Ireland?

All praise the power of the internet -- I just went out and looked at how embedded that is in the constitution of Ireland. Wow.

Little known fact (to most Americans) the word "god" does not occur in the Constitution of the United States.

[Froborr]

Most Americans, alas, do not know the difference between the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence (which uses "God" and "Creator" (both capitalized) once each), or that the latter, while a statement of principles by mostly the same people as the former, is not actually part of the law of the land.

[chris the cynic]

Disturbingly, this lack of understanding of the US' founding documents extends to some of the lawmakers themselves.

[Mmy]

@chris the cynic: Disturbingly, this lack of understanding of the US' founding documents extends to some of the lawmakers themselves.

cue dorkingly misinformed or intentionally misleading things said by Newt Gringrich

[Froborr]

...dork...ing...ly..?

*tries to figure out what that might mean*

*shies away in terror*

[Mike Timonin]

Given the semi-openness of this thread, I'd like to take the opportunity to wish you all a happy solstice (although, I gather, that doesn't really happen until this evening? I'm really not clear). I am wearing my new tie-dyed shirt and my newly shorn beard to commemorate the beginning of summer. And now, we're going to the wading pool. Because it's frickin hot here.

[Mike Timonin]

And happy winter solstice to our Antipodean friends, of course.

[Mmy]

@Mike Timonin: I'd like to take the opportunity to wish you all a happy solstice (although, I gather, that doesn't really happen until this evening? I'm really not clear). I am wearing my new tie-dyed shirt and my newly shorn beard to commemorate the beginning of summer. And now, we're going to the wading pool. Because it's frickin hot here.

We have both a humidex and a smog advisory here. It was 34 Celsius (93F) before 9 AM.

Since I have asthma this is the type of day I do not go outside.

[Izzy]

Happy Solstice indeed!

And yeah, it's...a shade too warm for me here, which is saying something.

[Froborr]

Yeah, it's over 90F today, supposed to hit 100F tomorrow. That's a good 35 degrees above the temperatures I'm built for.

[Will Wildman]

Hooray for solstices all 'round. (I like the sound of solstii, even though I know it's wrong.)

I was looking up the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms yesterday so that I could double-check the 'notwithstanding clause' for a blog post, and discovered (or perhaps rediscovered) that it starts with "Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law". That's about a paragraph before the bit about "freedom of conscience and religion".

The things we learn, eh.

[cjmr]

The kids and I did sunprints as a solstice activity (at noon, before it got too hot).

We're also going to make a graph from now to Winter Solstice with the sunrise/sunset data, so I need to get everything all set up for that.

[MercuryBlue]

Triple digits Fahrenheit here. So much for my daily walk, unless I go walking at quarter past midnight.

Also the software system in which we do all the work here is down. *sigh* bored.

[Mike Timonin]

I don't think we actually hit triple digits, but it was a close thing. Free wading pools are nice, and walking back, with wet clothes, was much nicer than walking down.

[Literata]

Yay, happy solstice!

TRiG, yikes. Here in the US, oaths sworn by military members traditionally end with "so help me God." Some people - including people in the military lawyer's offices (JAG) - will tell you this is legally required. It's not. But it keeps turning up. Sigh.

On a similar note, when LitSpouse was going to be involved in a ceremony involving such an oath, and he asked whether it was required to have an invocation, he was told that "oh, yes, such things are traditional and are totally necessary." He said, fine, I'll have my wife the priestess perform the invocation to the Wiccan Goddess. Suddenly someone discovered that invocations aren't actually required, and nothing more was said. The things you learn!

[Ross]

Seriously, it is so hot out today that the National Weather Service is using their "The sun is angry and wants to kill you" icon (Note that it's so hot that the URL of the image uses the subdirectory "wtf") instead of their "sunny" icon.

[Nick Kiddle]

//It feels like there should be some blanket thing that covers a lot of things that tend to get added individually.//

I read the US Constitution* a while ago, and I was very struck by the wording of the amendments that extended voting rights. Rather than saying "this group, hitherto not allowed to vote, is henceforth allowed to vote" they're of the form "the right of citizens ... to vote [...] shall not be abridged ... on account of [characteristic]". I thought that was an elegant way to do it.

*I joked that this would make me better informed than 75% of US citizens. Lo and behold, one of the first things I saw on the internet afterwards was a US politician stating that the first amendment doesn't apply to Muslims.

[chris the cynic]

Jumped off a bridge today. Good thing to do when it's hot. The current was the strongest I've ever seen it though. I was swimming as hard as I could, which I did until I was exhausted (unfortunately it takes a lot less to do that than it once did) and all I could manage was to stay in place. Finally I had to give up, swim to the side, and come back upstream over land. (Then take forever to regain my breath.)

Later times I jumped off I didn't jump off the very middle, that made it a lot easier to get back.

Thermometer says it peaked at 91F here.

[gleomstapa]

At least 95 F here and humid. I mostly stayed in; maybe I'll go swimming tomorrow. (Though there are no bridges for which it's a good idea to jump off of.) I really hope this weather represents midsummer and not the beginning of summer.

Celebrated the solstice with coffeecake and music-making, and got to feed a baby goat in the bargain.

[MercuryBlue]

Eleven-thirty at night and still eighty-five degrees. Ugh. I wonder if there's water in the pool at the community center. There better be. Wouldn't surprise me if there's not, since they've only been promising us that community center and that pool since we moved in several years ago (and Mom is Not Pleased that the pool is backyard-sized, not community-sized), but there better be.

[Timothy (TRiG)]

Sorry, my Internet connection went weird last night, so I couldn't reply. Yes, the Constitution of Ireland. (You're right, Mmy: The internet is wonderfully handy betimes.) The preamble is very religious.

In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,

We, the people of Éire,

Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,
Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,
And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,

Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.

Bah!

The oath of the President is

"In the presence of Almighty God I __, do solemnly and sincerely promise and declare that I will maintain the Constitution of Ireland and uphold its laws, that I will fulfil my duties faithfully and conscientiously in accordance with the Constitution and the law, and that I will dedicate my abilities to the service and welfare of the people of Ireland. May God direct and sustain me."

The oath for the members of the Council of State is

"In the presence of Almighty God I, __, do solemnly and sincerely promise and declare that I will faithfully and conscientiously fulfil my duties as a member of the Council of State."

And the oath for judges is

"In the presence of Almighty God I, __, do solemnly and sincerely promise and declare that I will duly and faithfully and to the best of my knowledge and power execute the office of Chief Justice (or as the case may be) without fear or favour, affection or ill-will towards any man, and that I will uphold the Constitution and the laws. May God direct and sustain me."

Furthermore, Article 44 § 1 declares

The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.

The fact that Article 44 § 2 goes on to say

1° Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.

2° The State guarantees not to endow any religion.

3° The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.

might, by some, be regarded as something of a contradiction.

***

I really must read the US Constitution one day. I like that phrasing, Nick Kiddle. "the right of citizens ... to vote [...] shall not be abridged ... on account of [characteristic]" It reminds people that the right was there all along, and just previously went unrecognised. In fact, I remember hearing that the US Constitution makes a point that it enumerates rights, but does not create them. The rights themselves are considered to be inalienable.

TRiG.

[Froborr]

That's true about the U.S. Constitution, TRiG. The 9th Amendment* is probably the most important in that respect:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

*The first 10 Amendments, collectively known as the Bill of Rights, were added to the Constitution after it was drafted but before it was officially adopted, so are often considered part of the "original" document despite the name. They are where most of the discussion of rights occurs; most of the text of the Constitution proper has to do with setting up the structure and powers of the federal government.

[truth is life]

I really must read the US Constitution one day. I like that phrasing, Nick Kiddle. "the right of citizens ... to vote [...] shall not be abridged ... on account of [characteristic]" It reminds people that the right was there all along, and just previously went unrecognised. In fact, I remember hearing that the US Constitution makes a point that it enumerates rights, but does not create them. The rights themselves are considered to be inalienable.

Yes, that is a significant characteristic of the Constitution, to the point where some people originally did not want to even have a Bill of Rights because they were afraid (not without reason, as it turns out) that it would be construed as an enumeration of rights rather than specifically defending some (and strict constructionists should put *that* in their pipe and smoke it...). They were forced to add it due to public sentiment, which hadn't caught up to the sometimes rather sophisticated constitutional thought of the writers, and tended to still think in the old way. Of course, given the long-term utility of the Bill of Rights, it's hard to fault the public in that regard.

Also, the Constitution is quite short! I have a little booklet that has the text of the Constitution, the amendments, the Articles of Confederation, possibly the Declaration of Independence, and some various other things, and is still only maybe 30 or 40 pages long? (And these are very small pages). It's really not too much trouble to sit down and read.