Open thread AND Board Post, July 27 2012

Irregular Business

Treat this as an open thread.
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Regular Business

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---

 

The Board Administration Team
(hapax, Kit Whitfield and mmy)



Comments

[chris the cynic]

My birthday is on the third. I honestly don't know if there's any plans, but if anyone will be in the southern Maine area around the third give or take as many days as you like, and would like to meet me in person, say something and we'll see what we can work out.

[Anonymus]

Happy early birthday, Chris!

[Froborr]

Happy week-before-your-birthday, Chris!

[victoria]

Is it possible to get an estimate on when/how long the appropriate thread will be open?

it's taken me a couple of days to catch up on all the comments, and now that i'm up to speed the thread is closed. i'm not able to be online as often as i'd like, so it would be helpful to have a general sense of when there will be time to comment so i can try to be online during that time.

[cjmr, who is HOME!, on her son's netbook]

*tries to figure out how close south-central MA is to southern ME in driving hours/minutes*

Happy Friday before your birthday, Chris!

[The Board Administration Team]

All posts are now open to comments, except the "Further Changes" post, which will remain closed.

Discussions of present and future community standards, moderation policies, etc., may continue on the "At Patheos: NRA: Marchons, marchons!" thread.

As a reminder, comments that focus on re-hashing past conflicts and grievances will be considered de-railing and deleted with a yellow card.

[kisekileia]

If people would like to see something happy and adorable after all the difficult discussion lately, here is the story of what is so far a successful attempt to save a species of utterly adorable pygmy rabbits.

[sarah]

Happy birthday, Chris!

@cjmr: if it's really southern ME, probably 1-2 hours. My brother's near Kittery, which is on the border, and that's how long it takes to get there from w'boro.

[cjmr, on her son's netbook]

1-2 hours wouldn't be that bad--we went that far last weekend to go to Napatree Point and Mystic Aquarium...

[chris the cynic]

@cjmr: if it's really southern ME, probably 1-2 hours. My brother's near Kittery, which is on the border, and that's how long it takes to get there from w'boro.

Greater Portland area, which Google tells me is a bit under 50 minutes from Kittery on average, and about 56 minutes away given current traffic.

I'm so used to being from a small state that it's easy to forget that southern Maine is still pretty big, especially by New England standards.

-

I figure that unless you're going to be in the area anyway, the drive will be too long for it to be worth it, all you'd get out of it is meeting me. I can't even promise cake.

[cjmr, on her son's netbook]

It's not the Maine part that would be the problem--it's the circumnavigating the Greater Boston metropolitan area part.

[cjmr, on her son's netbook]

Chris, how far away are you from here? (I'm not even going to attempt the html.)

http://www.visitportland.com/sabbathday-lake-shaker-village-maine-va5-c2801.aspx

[sarah]

Ah, yes. Even without the Big Dig anymore, Boston's a pain to drive through. I think we usually skirt around it, but I'm never the one driving, so I can't really help you there.

[chris the cynic]

The Shakers in Shaker Village on Shaker Village road?

There was a time when I could give you an exact time that it took to get there in my mother's car from my house (a lot of places we went together required driving right by there) now I'm left with the internet I'm about 30-45 minutes south of there according to Google. (Or ten hours on foot, they tell me.)

When I say greater Portland area, I mean that I walk into Portland on a regular basis. I actually live in South Portland, city/town across the estuary.

[cjmr, on her son's netbook]

Darn. According to Google time our house to arbitrarily selected point in S. Portland is 2h50m. And it actually underestimates circumnavigating Boston, ime.

[chris the cynic]

I didn't expect that anyone would be able to make it anyway. I just figured that on the off chance someone would I didn't want it to not happen due to me saying nothing.

[cjmr]

Sorry.

[chris the cynic]

It's not a problem.

[Froborr]

So, apropos of nothing except that this is a completely open thread, I had a rather shocking experience this morning. I've been rereading all the Discworld books for the last six weeks or so (though I took a break of about a week to read Grant Morrison's Supergods, which was... interesting), and I'm up to Men at Arms. And right there, on page 34, where I'd never noticed it before... was a rape joke.

How did I never notice it before? And how did Pratchett--someone I look up to immensely as a moral thinker--think that would be funny? Ugh.

[Timothy (TRiG)]

That's weird. And very unlike Pratchett. I don't remember it: I'll go look it up.

TRiG.

[Froborr]

In case your pages are numbered differently, it's in the scene where Vimes is thinking about the health and love lives of the member of the Night Watch, and it involves Nobby Nobbs.

[Froborr]

I am not sure whether or not to hope it's something unique to the American edition...

[Leum]

Men at Arms is one of his earlier books.

Trigger Warning: racism, sexism, misogyny, possibly transhumanism, racefail (including blackface), and probably a whole lot more that I haven't thought of, TBAT please add as needed

Someone, probably a very well-intentioned person, has written the ultimate (in the words of my friend): How Not to Write About Racism: A Practical Demonstration. It's called Save the Pearls, a dystopian future books where white people are horribly oppressed by PoC, especially black people. Link will start a Youtube video immediately featuring a white woman in what is essentially blackface.

[cjmr, on her son's netbook]

*wanders off to find Men at Arms*

[Mike Timonin]

Huh. He's right - it's a reference to Cpl. Nobbs.

[Rowen]

Two questions.

1) Has anyone here read Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle? I'm halfway through the first book and it's taken me ALL SUMMER and I don't know if I have the will to go on if it's not going to get a plot or something soon.

2) I'm borrowing the book, and when it's in my bag, the edges get kinda smooshed (it's a hardback, btw), anyone have any tips/suggestions to help avoid this?

[cjmr]

Can you make a cardboard sleeve to put around it when carrying it? Or wrap it in a small towel or piece of fabric?

[chris the cynic]

With Respect to what Leum is talking about, (TW:racism, sexism, misogyny, forced mating, racefail (including blackface)) Ana has started a thread about it, for those who don't understand the first post (because it references a previous thread) depizan is saying that the only response that comes to mind is profanity.

[chris the cynic]

TBAT, am I getting spamtrapped?

I was trying to let people know that Ana has a thread up at her site discussing what Leum brought up, I wasn't hit with any captcha, I was just told the comment posted, but it's not showing up.

[chris the cynic]

Ok, I have absolutely no idea what happened right there. I swear I checked and double checked and triple checked, and there was nothing from me there.

[kisekileia]

@victoria, I think the comments on that thread are being opened when TBAT members have the time to devote their full attention to the thread, and closed when TBAT members are not available to do that. If you have something to say and find the thread closed, I suggest copying and pasting your comment to a Word document or something similar, and posting it when the comments open again.

[The Board Administration Team]

@chris the cynic: TBAT, am I getting spamtrapped?

You may have been an one of TBAT found you in there and freed you.

Do we have permission to remove the duplicate comment?

[chris the cynic]

Do we have permission to remove the duplicate comment?

Yes, definitely.

[The Board Administration Team]

@victoria: Is it possible to get an estimate on when/how long the appropriate thread will be open?

If you go by eastern Daylight Savings Time the thread usually closes around 10 at night and opens between 9 and noon the next day.

That is obviously subject to things including (but not limited to): it takes longer to run errands during the Olympics, the car is in the shop and "what do you mean they want to run even more tests on me?"

[Rowen]

Hrm. I'm not sure a towel would help. Right now, what's happening is that the corners are getting crushed, which is causing parts of the cover to get frayed.

The other problem is that if the series isn't worth it, I'm tempted to just say to hell with it and not worry and give it back to my friend

[Timothy (TRiG)]

Rowen, I keep a cloth bag inside my satchel. Books in there are rarely damaged.

TRiG.

[Slacktivite]

TW/CW: sexually transmitted infection, self-blame

It may be obvious who I am, but I don't want this going out with my name attached. Earlier this week, I found out I have gonorrhea. I'm getting treatment (yay for drop-in sexual health clinics!) but I still feel absolutely lousy about the whole thing. I'm pretty sure I got it when I was too drunk and self-hating to have safe sex, which gives me the chance to beat myself up hard over my perceived failures. I also feel filthy and contaminated, even though logically I know I shouldn't, conditioning is hard to break.

Any good thoughts and so on would be appreciated.

[Pummelwell]

1) Has anyone here read Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle? I'm halfway through the first book and it's taken me ALL SUMMER and I don't know if I have the will to go on if it's not going to get a plot or something soon.

Shut it down.

CHRONO-STRUCTURAL SPOILERS:

It can be helpful to think of it as Books 1-8, published in three volumes.

Books 1-3 are all setup. Books 4-5 are the point where hope meets gravity, and 6-8 are the fallout as everything crashes back down to earth in varying states of combustion.

Much depends on if you're invested in seeing how the hell everyone got to where they are at the start of Book 1. If you're at a point where reading's actually taking willpower, you should probably stop.

The Baroque Cycle can be very rewarding, but so can juggling geese. YMMV.

[Mmy]

@Slacktivite: Uncloaking to say that I am sending good thoughts in your direction.

[hapax]

Please forgive this personal comment:

@Slacktivite: I am sending internet {{hugs}} and positive thoughts your way. Anyone can make a mistake; it takes a good and mature adult to take responsibility and repair the harm.

[Amaryllis]

@Slacktivite: All good wishes for your physical and health.

and if it helps, I have no idea who you are.

[lonespark]

Slacktivite,
All the good wishes in dealing with your health problem.

[chris the cynic]

@Slacktivite

All the good wishes I have.

which gives me the chance to beat myself up hard over my perceived failures. I also feel filthy and contaminated, even though logically I know I shouldn't, conditioning is hard to break.

I have no idea if this would help for you, if it wouldn't never mind, but some people when they get in a position like that can break the conditioning by thinking about if they'd feel the same way about someone else in the same situation.

[lonespark]

Yeah, that advice has worked for me in the past. I would never treat a friend or virtually anyone as badly as I treat myself.

[Mike Timonin]

Rowen - I found the second volume to be much much better than the first, but I really liked the first volume, so YMMV. Stephenson is known for really long, heavily descriptive books - Cryptonomicon has a several page scene about reprogramming a computer's LEDs to talk in Morse code, and a lot of readers found it a bit much. If you like the characters you've met thus far, and care about what happens to them, push on, otherwise, there's no sin in not liking a book.

Slacktivite - I have no words. Hugs if you want them.

[Rowen]

TRiG,

What kind of cloth bag?

Everyone else,

I've been finding I like it in spurts. Like, ok, the first part about Issac Newton and his little friend . . . at first I was LOVING IT, and then it took me a week to get through the last 100 pages.

Then Jack showed up. REALLY COOL! Then Jack and Co split up and it's getting into . . . ugh territory again.

For the record, I've liked long drawn out series. Well, some. I love Tad Williams Otherland series, but got tired of the Wheel of Time halfway through Fires of Heaven.

[St. Jebus]

@ Rowen Lol. I had the opposite reaction - I love the Wheel of Time series immensely, but I couldn't get through Otherland at all.

@ Slactivite Like many others, I have no words. Hope you feel better.

[P J Evans]

I like some of Stephenson's books, but not others. The Baroque Cycle and Cryptonomicon didn't work for me. Obviously, YMMV.
(I like Anathem. Fortunately it's only one (large) volume.)

[Kit Whitfield]

Brief uncloaking to send sympathy to Slacktivite. That's horrible bad luck; I hope you have a quick recovery. And try not to beat yourself up too hard, though of course that's easier said than done. Just take care of yourself; you need your own compassion right now.

[Caravelle]

@slacktivite : All the hugs in the world.
In another muddle-headed attempt to offer a different perspective on the off-chance it might help, well... gonorrhea is a disease. It's like you caught a cold because you kissed someone hello (possibly less of a risk in countries and genders where you don't do that...). It's like, yeah, I could have stopped in my tracks when they said "don't kiss me, I have a cold !" instead of going "whatever, I'm not worried about that" and kissing them anyway, so it's clearly my fault, but it's just an ill-advised action, not a morally salient issue that speaks to my worth as a person.
Or like when I broke my arm climbing up a slide while my brothers slid down. Again, totally my fault and my idea, but it's more of a "laughing at my past stupidity" and "learning my lesson for next time" thing, not "I'm a horrible person and deserved this".

The only difference with gonorrhea is that sex is involved.
(that said I've been stupid regarding safe sex too in the past (are we detecting a trend here ? :p), and if I did find out I had an STI (you at least were responsible enough to check) I probably would feel like you do. But that doesn't mean I should)

[Slacktivite]

Thanks everyone for the good thoughts. Thanks especially to the TeaBats: it really means a lot that you would "uncloak" just to give me a message of sympathy. Thank you.

//I have no idea if this would help for you, if it wouldn't never mind, but some people when they get in a position like that can break the conditioning by thinking about if they'd feel the same way about someone else in the same situation.//
//I would never treat a friend or virtually anyone as badly as I treat myself.//

I can recognise that in myself, but it doesn't help me to break the conditioning. If anything, it adds another layer of self-blame - "This is a completely illogical and unreasonable way to feel, why can't I get over myself already?" Feelings are messy and complicated.

//In another muddle-headed attempt to offer a different perspective on the off-chance it might help, well... gonorrhea is a disease. It's like you caught a cold because you kissed someone hello (possibly less of a risk in countries and genders where you don't do that...).//

Funnily enough, that was the exact analogy my friend offered while she was driving me to the clinic and I was beating myself up in the passenger seat. If I caught a cold and potentially gave it to my new girlfriend, I might be worried for her but I wouldn't feel dirty. But just because it's sex, our culture instils all these habits of shame.

[Froborr]

Everyone else has given the advice I would, so I shall just give sympathy and well-wishes, Slacktivite.

[chris the cynic]

I can recognise that in myself, but it doesn't help me to break the conditioning. If anything, it adds another layer of self-blame - "This is a completely illogical and unreasonable way to feel, why can't I get over myself already?"

Sorry. I've got nothing left to offer but unconditional love and support. You have my best wishes, you have my sympathy, you have my empathy.

Wish I had something else to give.

[Froborr]

So, again, since this is an open thread, a question: Can anybody think of a tradition in which a 9- or 900-spoked wheel is a significant symbol?

See, I had this dream last night where a woman (pretty much your generic adventure-movie Woman of Action, I'm not even sure if she had a name) and I were searching the desert for the corpse of God, which had been buried there millions of years ago. Satan, who was God's former second-in-command and heir, not particularly evil, and looked like a very fit blonde man in a nice suit, was trying to convince us not to, but we ignored him. At the end of the dream we found the corpse, which was a 900-spoked wheel a mile across, and just before I woke up I remember thinking, "Shouldn't that have been nine spokes?"

I tried Googling, and while I found eight- and twelve-spoked wheels in Buddhism, I have found nothing about nine-spoked wheels. Any ideas?

[Brin]

Well, my first thought was those angels shaped like wheels, but they don't appear to have specifically nine spokes. Maybe they do in one of the depictions under "Ophanim in popular culture", I don't know.

Get well soon, Slacktivite.

[The Board Administration Team]

All posts are now open to comments, except the "Further Changes" post, which will remain closed. Discussions of present and future community standards, moderation policies, etc., may continue on the "At Patheos: NRA: Marchons, marchons!" thread. As a reminder, comments that focus on re-hashing past conflicts and grievances will be considered de-railing and deleted with a yellow card.

[Froborr]

@Brin: Good thought, but I couldn't find anything on them having nine spokes. Likewise with Wanyudo, the Japanese fiery wheel spirits, nor could I find any references to Ixion's wheel having nine spokes.

I do, however, have enough wheel-related mythical beings to name a whole fleet of flying saucers... if only I had a story to put them in...

[lonespark]

Something something nine worlds something? Nine days/nights on the tree? Our gods die & presumably leave corpses...IDK.

[chris the cynic]

Nine choirs of angels in the

Seraphim
Cherubim
Thrones
Dominions
Virtues
Powers
Principalities
Archangels
Angels

model.

If you were considering each of the choirs to represent an element of the person of God, but not the whole, then a nine spoked wheel would get the symbolism. Each spoke is a choir, all are integrated into the whole but they do not complete the whole but are rather included in it, as symbolized by the wheel itself encompassing the spokes.

Thus God is like all angels, includes elements of all angels, but is something more as well.

That said, that only works as an attempt by me to interpret the symbolism, not as a preexisting symbolism already in use because I just took "Nine choirs of angles" and "Nine spoked wheel," and put them together the best I could off the top of my head.

Thus it isn't an answer to the actual question asked.

[chris the cynic]

"wheel with nine spokes" (minus motor to make sure we're not talking about a car or dirtbike or something) does get about half a thousand hits on google, some of which look religious. Unfortunately I do not have time to look through them at the moment.

[Froborr]

You know, that could work. The dead god would be Ymir, the nine hundred spokes are nine worlds connected at the axis* mundi, Ygddrasil... whole dream ends up a sort of Norse-Gnostic hybrid that way. Definitely interesting.

*Ba-dump-pscch.

[Froborr]

Ooh, nine choirs of angels is also a possibility!

[The Board Administration Team]

Just a reminder: although the normal rhythm of posting has been disrupted this week we will still be posting "This week in the Slacktiverse" this week. Submissions to that post are still being accepted.

[The Kidd]

@Froborr: you might be interested in some of the kabbalistic depictions of the Sephirot.. Although there are ten emanations, they are often depicted as a "tree" which can also look like a nine spoked wheel, concluding in a protruding Malkut.

[Slacktivite]

//Wish I had something else to give.//

You've already given more than I asked for, and maybe as much as anyone can give in these circumstances. So thank you, and don't worry.

[Froborr]

I'm somewhat familiar with the Sephirot, but I don't recall every seeing a depiction that looked particularly wheel-like to me...

[A Slacktivite Pseudononymized]

(Posted pseudononymously for personal reasons)

I know we're getting close to thread necromancy at this point, but I've been working on something I wanted to talk about for a week and change now, but the recent policy issues took precidence. Also, I've had to try several times running to write this because the shape of the problem keeps changing, and it's not quite linear.

(Warning: references abortion, motherhood, marriage equality, domestic abuse)

My wife has a friend who, after her second marriage and then her third engagment ended unhappily, moved across the country, changed her name, and moved in with a new boyfriend. Now, my wife frequently reblogs things on facebook (I don't know if they call it that on facebook, being generally against most social networking myself) about motherhood and about liberal causes and political positions. A couple of weeks ago, her friend sent her a message saying that my wife's postings were hurtful to her, what with her "constant" talk about motherhood (the friend recently discovered that she's infertile) and her "ignorant" political views and her support of the ACA (this included a cheap shot about how if our child were to be severely ill, "government death panels" would decide his fate). Shortly afterward, my wife received an abusive, bullying message from the friend's boyfriend claiming that my wife was uninformed and ignorant, and knew nothing of the founders' views on separation of church and state or the role of the federal government, calling my wife an idiot and also calling her a bad catholic for her support of gay rights, legalized abortion and mandated birth control coverage.

Last night, my wife received a final message from her friend, saying how she no longer had time to be friends with peoiple who weren't interested in becoming "more informed" (she herself was becoming "more informed" thanks to real patriots like Glenn Beck (not hyperbole)) and who "thought the world revolved around mothers" and also making some digs about my wife hadn't made any extraordinary effort to keep in touch in meatspace (Neither had the friend but that's neither here nor there apparently), before blocking my wife on facebook. This morning, she found out that their other mutual friends (She was part of my wife's high school clique) where also blocked.

Now my wife is very upset. Even leaving aside having lost one of her oldest and dearest friends, the whole thing reeks of some form of toxic relationship and my wife feels like she's failing her friend by not being there to support her.

But none of this is why I bring it up. See, when the boyfriend called my wife a bad Catholic, for some reason that part really stuck with her. She reevaluated her life choices and came to the conclusion that she was a bad Catholic. And she's decided that she needs to become a good Catholic. Namely, she's decided that she wants to switch to "natural family planning." Now, my wife has never especially liked being on the pill, and I'd only be a little uncomfortable with the idea per se, but the fact that my wife has decided to believe that her eternal salvation depends on her method of family planning receiving the approval of a group of celibate men really upsets me (Also, this is one of those uncomfortable relationship asymmetries; It's not like I'm going to tell her that she has to take the pill). And it's impossible to discern how much of her position comes from what, because she's the sort of person who would never say that it's something she actually *wants*, it has to be "It doesn't matter what I personally want, we promised at our wedding that we would be open to the possibility of children and the church takes that to mean no contraceptives, so we promised."

She's also trying to bring her other positions more in line with the church's official position (Not all of them, thankfully): she's decided that abortion is "always morally evil but sometimes justified as the lesser of two evils and it should be left to the woman involved whether it's justified in her case," and she's moved from being pro-marriage-equality to "Government should get out of the marriage business and it should be civil unions for everybody," trying to get as close as she can to catholic orthodoxy without crossing the line into morally abominable.

She's been pushing me for my feelings or response on the subject, but I don't know how to respond to her; I don't really know how to express my discomfort in a way that is either pointless or unreasonable, and I feel like she doesn't *want* a response of "I don't like your positions on these issues but I respect your choice.": she either wants "You have chosen a positive good and are doing the right thing and I support you and will believe what you believe" or she wants "Here is a logical argument proving conclusively beyond the standards of reasonable doubt that your actions are incorrect here, therefore you should not do them but do not need to feel guilty about it since you had no choice in the face of this logical argument." (ie. an excuse to "get her off the hook")

[cjmr, on her son's netbook]

Pseudonomynized, I don't know what you are asking for, here. Advice? Support? Us to magically be able to tell what your wife is thinking/feeling?

I am not a marriage counseling professional. I am a wife who disagrees (across approximately the same lines) on these same issues, so take this advice from that perspective.

If your honest response is "I don't like your positions on these issues but I respect your choice," then that is what you should say, whether or not you think that's what she wants to hear. You don't have to believe what she does to support her in her choice, but if you don't intend to support her in her choice, that's something you need to discuss, up front, ASAP.

TMI Warning

Husband and I used NFP (and/or Fertility Awareness Method) for the middle 10 years of our marriage. It's not as easy as the books portray it--if you aren't both on board with it, it can make your marriage much harder.

[cjmr, on her son's netbook]

Somehow that second paragraph lost the phrase "with her husband" after the parenthetical.

[lonespark]

Having no advice to give, I offer support. It sounds like your wife has had a rough experience, losing a friend in a painful way, re-examining core values... Hugs (if wanted) for all.

[lonespark]

For all the many painful disagreements I do have with Mr. Lonespark, the only kind of ideological split we have is where he thinks using children to make political points is unconscionable.

(I respect it, but I don't agree. They can't consent like an adult can, but they are involved, anyway, whether it's healthcare or funding unemployment/foodtamps, etc... I guess it's best when they're at least old enough to understand, but I am all for taking your baby to the rally. I am not against having small kids signs, or using their images for posters, etc., but I do think that should be done carefully and considerately, and I realize it can be really exploitative.)

[cjmr]

Sorry, I just need to vent/rant for a minute.

I am getting SOOOOOOOO tired of having to 'snope out' every single (expletive deleted) multiply-forwarded piece of lying anti-ACA email that my parents/in-laws send me. But I have to, because if I don't they'll actually believe that (excrement-related expletive deleted). And we're only just heading IN to election season...

*deep cleansing scream*

*deep cleansing breath*

Sorry, vent/rant over. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

[kisekileia]

I'm not sure if this would help, Slacktive Pseudonymized, but I ultimately abandoned conservative Christian views about homosexuality and premarital sex because I came to the conclusion that they weren't compatible with what Jesus explicitly said was one of the two greatest commands of Christianity--the command to love your neighbour as yourself. I became pro choice several years before that because I saw Psalm 139 used as a Biblical argument against abortion, read the psalm, and came to believe that describing the process of fetal development as "knitting together in the mother's womb" indicated that the development of an embryo into a person was something that took place gradually over the course of pregnancy. I was an evangelical Protestant, though, so with your wife there's the added hurdle of what the Catholic Church says.

[A Slacktivite Pseudononymized]

@lonespark: Part of the reason this is so uncomfortable to me is that we started out very close ideologically, but over a fairly short span, she's made a sharp turn toward orthodoxy while I've made a somewhat more gradual move to apostasy.

if you aren't both on board with it, it can make your marriage much harder.

If it's not too personal, could you speak a little more about that? My wife says she's done "a lot of research" and has bought a book, and seems to be presenting it as something that will primarily be a lot of hassle for her.

(I actually did do my own research years ago on the subject, because I thought it might be a good part of a defense-in-depth strategy coupled with other methods, but most everything I found at the time was some more or less verbose form of "Don't").

[lonespark]

TBAT, I'm guessing the pseud. person doesn't want a blog link from their name there?

[cjmr]

Content Warning: really frank discussion of sex and Natural Family Planning

TW: mention of unintentional pregnancy

"If it's not too personal, could you speak a little more about that? My wife says she's done "a lot of research" and has bought a book, and seems to be presenting it as something that will primarily be a lot of hassle for her."

I'm going to be as general as I can here, and if you want to ask deeper questions we can see about exchanging email addresses somehow. I'm not going to go any further into my own sex life than I feel comfortable with on a forum where the general public can see it (so not very).

How hard NFP can be on a marriage, and especially one where the two parties didn't enter into the marriage both having an NFP-mindset in the first place, has to do with two things--the amount of abstinence involved and the couple being on a different page WRT how conservative they want to be following the rules (the more you want to avoid pregnancy, the more conservatively you have to follow the rules).

Abstinence:

1. One reason that couples (well, women, actually) are advised to learn NFP during their engagement is that (the program assumes) they aren't having sex yet so the woman will have several months to learn to chart, to get familiar with what her cycle looks like, and to figure out where in the cycle she is ovulating, without the interference of seminal residue and or lubricant to mess up the cervical mucus signs (CMS). If you are learning NFP (from an instructor) while already sexually active, it is recommended that you remain abstinent for a minimum of two months while this step is accomplished. Some methods of NFP do not rely as heavily on CMS and don't require this step. (We had used Fertility Awareness Method previous to learning NFP, and I was not just coming off hormonal contraception, so I was comfortable only charting for one month.)

2. There will be a period of abstinence each month, and, depending on how regular the woman's cycle is (and how long) it can be up to 2 weeks. That it can be up to 2 weeks really isn't focused on in the materials. The more conservative you want to be following the rules, the longer the monthly period of abstinence will be.

How conservative to be:

The fill-in-the-blank question you need to answer here is, "If [wife] were to get pregnant this month due to method- or user-error*, it would be _____________." How you fill in that blank will determine how conservative you want to be. Every NFP method has its own set of rules.

The Sympto-Thermal Method (the one we used) divides the cycle into three phases. Phase 1 is from the beginning of the woman's period to 5-8 days afterwards (depending on the woman and which set of End of Phase 1 rules you use). Phase 2 is from the end of Phase 1 to 3-4 days after peak-CMS and the temperature rise occurs. Phase 3 is the rest of the cycle.

If you want to be REALLY conservative while using STM, you have to abstain for all of Phases 1 and 2. That's where the 2 weeks I mentioned above comes in. If you are postponing pregnancy but wouldn't mind if one happened, only Phase 2 is abstinent, and you can use the most liberal interpretation of the rules.

Ideally, the couple is supposed to ask each other the above question each month and act accordingly. If you aren't on the same page with the answer, that can (obviously) cause marital friction.

------
*'Method-error' = the chart says it is definitely a safe day, but pregnancy occurs anyway

'User-error' = the chart says it is questionably a safe day, but you have sex anyway

[cjmr]

TBAT--there is spam between my post above and lonespark's last one

[Also Anonymous for Reasons]

@Pseudo: I have no advice, but lots of sympathy and well-wishes.

TW: Description of Depression

My own relationship of several has just entered what is either a very bad patch or the last long run-up to break-up. There's no apparent cause; my SO just says zie feels like zie loves me less than zie used to and isn't sure anymore if zie wants to stay in the relationship.

I'm still not feeling it much. Life is very gray today, and I feel like there's a constant gravitational pull trying to drag me into fetal position. I've had a few fairly vivid fantasies of self-harm, but with no inclination to act on them. Regardless, the cumulative effect has made working fairly difficult today.

It's especially troubling because my SO is more-or-less completely financially dependent on me and I'm worried about how zie will live if we break up, and whether I will be able to live with myself if I turn hir out on the street.

[cjmr]

Also Anonymous, hoping for your sake it is 'just' a bad patch. Even relationships that are decades in duration have similar.

[lonespark]

Ugh, lots of tough times around. You're in my thoughts, Also Anon.

cjmr is certainly right that people get through those kind of things and stay together...but I don't know how much that helps. There's pain splitting up and moving on; there's also pain separating or drawing apart and eventually moving on with an altered relationship.

You're dealing with something difficult. Avoiding the fetal position takes a lot, so kudos to you.

I think probably you could live with yourself if you helped hir get on hir feet, by accessing whatever aid or support is available. Maybe it'd be easier to offer that help via email, or phone, or through friends or family? At least I feel like I'd sleep better doing it that way. Living together when it makes every day harder isn't worth it if you can survive at all apart.

[Raj]

@Slacktivite:

Sending good wishes and sympathy.

[Raj]

Happy birthday, Chris!

[Raj]

A very happy birthday to my dear friend Scylla (a.k.a. Thalia)! *HUGS*

[kisekileia]

I don't know if this is still true, but Planned Parenthood had a lot of interesting, very positive and respectful information about NFP on their website about ten years ago when I looked into it because I was dating a Catholic. Learning that completely changed how I thought about Planned Parenthood.

Also, Pseudo, does your wife have any medical reason to stay on the pill? The Catholic Church does allow people to use birth control pills when the hormonal/cycle regulation/other non-contraception-related effects are medically necessary, so if your wife derives some medical benefit to being on birth control pills besides contraception, maybe that could help her feel comfortable with the idea of staying on birth control pills.

[lonespark]

That is a useful suggestion I would not have thought of, kisekileia. Does the Church include mental health as a good reason? In my case the mental-health-appropriate method would have been something I didn't have to remember to take every day, but that's just me.

[kisekileia]

@lonespark, I think so.

When I was with my devoutly Catholic ex-boyfriend, we concluded that if we got married, it would probably be OK with the Catholic Church for me to stay on the pill if we got married because it helped my acne and menstrual cramps.

[cjmr, on her son's netbook]

Officially, according to everything I've read on the matter (which is fairly extensive), the Church says the condition for which hormonal birth control may legitimately be taken has to be something that is directly affected by hormonal levels, for example: uterine fibroids, ovarian cysts, etc. I know people who have gotten official dispensation for other things. Most people don't bother to get official dispensation.

[kisekileia]

In my case, the menstrual cramps had previously been bad enough that I couldn't get adequate pain control without serious narcotics (which I didn't have), and the acne had been completely unresponsive to almost everything else short of Accutane (which is really dangerous and which I can't take anyway due to allergies).

[Also Anonymous for Reasons]

Thanks all.

We had a long talk tonight. We both really don't want this to end and are willing to talk this out and work on it, so insofar as I am capable of hope (which is not far), I'm hoping.

Zie has also decided to start looking for a new job, either better paying or with longer hours, and scaling back to one class a semester instead of 2-3, so that zie can be more independent financially. We are also considering getting a one-bedroom; in hindsight getting a studio was a mistake, even if it was the only way we could afford to stay in the city without going into a slum. For this price we can find things in good neighborhoods in the suburbs that have actual rooms, with doors we can close when we need to. That might also help.

Finally, we're going to start going on dates again. With each other, I mean, not other people. Try to rekindle what we had a year or two ago.

Also I talked to my therapist. She asked if I need to go back on meds, and I answered, truthfully, "Almost, but not quite." She assured me my old psychiatrist (they work in the same building) is still available and can see me any time I need it, which helped a LOT.

[cjmr, on her son's netbook]

It sounds like you are both making positive changes.

[Also Anonymous for Reasons]

I hope so, cjmr.

[kisekileia]

Pseudo, I found something else that might help you. Here is an explanation, stated by a Catholic priest and quoted on the blog of a woman with, I believe, a doctorate in theology. Basically, there's a case to be made that under Catholic teaching, it may be permissible to follow one's conscience even when one's conscience disagrees with the Church--the Church just happens to be ignoring this at the moment.

[A Slacktivite Pseudononymized]

Also, Pseudo, does your wife have any medical reason to stay on the pill? The Catholic Church does allow people to use birth control pills when the hormonal/cycle regulation/other non-contraception-related effects are medically necessary, so if your wife derives some medical benefit to being on birth control pills besides contraception, maybe that could help her feel comfortable with the idea of staying on birth control pills.

Aside from a fairly irregular cycle, no. But I don't know that it would matter anyway; she's never liked being on the pill and says it kills her sex drive (I've heard of this, but I thought that the non-hormonal pills weren't supposed to do that). I think I'd be a lot more comfortable if she were to come out and say that she's never liked being on the pill and wants to get off of it instead of insisting on framing it as "What I want doesn't matter, this is The Rules."

@cmjr: Thanks. That makes things a little less scary (Or, less tactfully "There are married couples who have sex more than three times a year? Who'd have thought?")

I did have a little mini-revelation that bothers me, which is this: regardless of her motives, the aggregate of the entire situation makes me feel like she's trying to trick me into having another kid before I'm ready. Because our answers to that fill-in-the-blank question are pretty different. She's made it clear that she wants to have another kid right away. I've told her that I want to wait a couple of years (Not that just-at-the-moment is an option, as her cycle hasn't started back up yet). But since I don't have a good answer to "But why?", the question doesn't go away. And even if they're completely unrelated, it feels like there is a connection when the conversation goes, in order Her:"I want to have another baby as soon as possible" Me:"I want to wait a bit." Her:"But why?" Me:"Because that is just how I feel." Her: "Okay. But we should have sex more. Also I want to go off the pill."

I think maybe I'm getting close to having an answer to those "buy why?" questions, if I can figure out how to have the conversation without locking up.

[Froborr]

Her:"I want to have another baby as soon as possible" Me:"I want to wait a bit." Her:"But why?" Me:"Because that is just how I feel." Her: "Okay. But we should have sex more. Also I want to go off the pill."

You: Okay. I'll buy the condoms.

[cjmr]

"I did have a little mini-revelation that bothers me, which is this: regardless of her motives, the aggregate of the entire situation makes me feel like she's trying to trick me into having another kid before I'm ready. Because our answers to that fill-in-the-blank question are pretty different."

This is basically why we no longer use NFP or FAM. Husband is DONE having kids. I wouldn't mind if I were to get pregnant again. [TMI typed in and deleted several times] It was causing too much tension, and wrecking our relationship outside the bedroom as well. To make a long story short, we eventually decided that since I'd been responsible for contraception for the first 18 years of our marriage, he could be responsible for it for the next 18. (After which point, it shouldn't matter.)

I would really recommend, if you two decide to go forward with NFP, that instead of just learning it from a book you find a teaching/mentoring couple. Every method now has a website that can help you find instructors. Some Diocesan websites do, too, but not all of them. And you should participate in the charting/interpreting, not just wife.

[A Slacktivite Pseudononymized]

@Froborr: She dislikes those even more than the pill

@cmjr: That's a great idea. Hopefully neither one of us will find the idea of mentoring too uncomfortable.

[Froborr]

@Pseudo: To be honest, I think your wife's position here is entirely unreasonable--she is basically demanding to have sex on a particular schedule, without protection, regardless of her partner's wishes. You both have a right to set the conditions under which you are willing to have sex. If you're not both consenting enthusiastically, then IMO you shouldn't do it.

In your shoes, I think I would talk to her about your concerns about having another kid. Not in an accusatory way, just "I'm concerned that this idea is a recipe for having another kid before we're ready." NFP has a much higher failure rate than correct usage of the pill and/or condoms. No judgment there; it's just a fact. Whether she is intending it as a backdoor method of getting a kid earlier than you're prepared for, that is a reasonably likely result.

[sarah]

[[Froborr: NFP has a much higher failure rate than correct usage of the pill and/or condoms. No judgment there; it's just a fact. Whether she is intending it as a backdoor method of getting a kid earlier than you're prepared for, that is a reasonably likely result.]]

I don't have any personal experience with NFP, but I'll add this: every couple I know who's tried NFP has ended up pregnant. In most of those cases, they wanted kids anyway, so it wasn't as big a deal.

[cjmr]

Possible TMI warning

Our 'failure rate' has been the same when using NFP or FAM or condoms (0%). We've never gotten pregnant without actively trying (sometimes for months). But we followed the most conservative version of the rules of the most conservative method of NFP when we weren't actively trying. And we're fairly comfortable with periodic abstinence, which I know (from Catholic, NFP, and homeschooling discussion forums) can be an atypical experience.

-----

@Froborr--I agree that NFP should only be used by couples that are both 100% on board with it, but IMO that goes for *all* methods of contraception (or not using contraception at all), not just NFP. I'd go so far as to say *sex* should only be used by couples that are both 100% on board with the method of contraception being used (or lack thereof).

[Froborr]

@cjmr: Err... yes-ish? If the form of contraception being used only affects one partner, such as hormonal birth control, then it's only the decision of that partner whether or not to use it. On the other hand, misleading your partner about whether or not you're using birth control and what form you're using (or anything else that could change their decision about whether to have sex with you) is seriously wrong. And of course if either partner doesn't want to have sex, for any reason, then sex should not occur.