At Patheos: TF: What if that was me?

Fred's new Left Behind post is up at Patheos.

Excerpt:

So bracket all of the ethical, logical and theological atrocities of this plot. Look past all those nagging concerns about physics, human nature and continuity. Just go with the story we are given. There’s enough raw material here for a few dozen epic disaster movies by the likes of Roland Emmerich or Jerry Bruckheimer. Sure, those directors may be hacks (fabulously wealthy hacks), but they know how to tell a disaster-movie story. When they destroy the earth every summer at a theater near you, they know enough not to make it boring.

....

I think there’s a connection here between LaHaye & Jerry Jenkins’ failure of story-telling and the appalling ethical failures of their characters. Both of these can be traced back to the refusal or the inability to ask that question, “What if that was me?” Because they never ask that question, the authors can’t be relied on to give us an exciting story that invites us into it any more than their characters can be relied on to give a rip about plane-crash victims or about their suddenly childless neighbors. Never asking that question is hostile to readers in terms of both ethics and story-telling, both character and plot.[by Fred Clark, TF:What if that was me, March 21, 2011, posted at Patheos.com]

Commentators who would like to share their responses to the new post with all of Fred's fans (old and new) can cross-post to both boards.

 

 

Comments

[Arania]

Nota bene: there are already a couple of concern trolls frolicking through Fred's TF thread. Be warned, or enjoy, as you see fit.

[Spalanzani]

Lazy double-posting:

Official Bruce Barnes Death Countdown: 92 pages

Unofficially Official Double Wedding Countdown: 69 pages.

Officially Unofficial Meet The Bride Countdown: 53 pages.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

His job was ferrying Nicolae Carpathia wherever he wanted to go, and for some reason, Rayford felt compelled to sublimate his wishes, his desires, his will, and his logic. God had laid this in his lap for some reason, and as long as he didn’t have to live a lie, at least for now he would do it.

Boy does that ever sound like a Message From Fred: "The Authors God had laid this job in his lap for some reason, and, for some reason, he was taking it". Not even two books in and they've already thrown in the towel when it comes to providing a coherent rational for the plot.

[Deird, who wants to hit something]

Have been battling the concern trolls.

Am nearly out of spoons.

Please send reinforcements hugs.

[Arania]

Deird, I am with you, my comrade. Let's huddle for warmth and radio for an air strike.

[P J Evans]

{{Deird}}

I saw those trolls. I think nuking them might be a good idea, at this point. (Put us out of their misery.)

[Ravanan]

*hugs Deird*
I was considering posting on the Patheos site, but good lord that wall of rather vitriolic comments is intimidating. 200 comments in 7 hours? Trolls be having a field day.

[victoria]

Deird, sending you hugs. i probably won't be able to continue following the thread, but i added my 2 cents worth of anti-troll.

[P J Evans]

I just added some more anti-troll to the thread, too.

[karpad]

Jaysis fuck. Just, goddamn that thread.

Haven't seen this much goalpost moving since the last time the Tigers beat the Huskers.

[/footballjokenoonegets]

[Jamoche]

When they destroy the earth every summer at a theater near you, they know enough not to make it boring.

I'm going to have to disagree with this - Emmerich directed 2012, and that was extremely boring.

[Raj]

Jamoche,

I am SOOO sick of the impending destruction of the Earth in all those fauxcumentaries on The Channel That Was Once The History Channel.

[Raj]

{{{Deird}}}

You ROCK!

[Lastwriter]

Long time lurker finally delurking to agree with what Jamoche said. Good lord. For a movie about the world ending, you'd think that 2012 would be interesting. The correct response to "apocalypse movie" is not "falling asleep halfway through".

(The correct response is "snarf down popcorn like a vacuum cleaner", btw.)

[Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little]

Gods help me, I put in my oar.

It came out... sticky. Why do I go back to rowing on this river? Whyyyyy?

[this post brought to you by Tortured Metaphors R Us]

[Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little]

re: Lastwriter's take on 2012 - have you seen the Movies in 15 Minutes version? Cleolinda is a star.

Have you not clicked already? OMG. Click it. clickitclickitclickit!

[MadGastronomer, who is very tired]

Hugs to everybody who's fighting the good fight over there (and who wants them). Good grief, what a mess.

[Madhabmatics]

You guys are right. Less "End of the World" shows, more episodes of ancient aliens.

*grabs popcorn*

[Firedrake]

I'm with greygelgoog back at the beginning: I think a valid alternative view is that L&J do ask "what if that was me"... and see themselves as the practically-Randite, selfish and self-sufficient "heroes" of their own narratives. No, they say, we need not care about the plight of the injured, the hungry or the oppressed: we've got our tickets to Heaven, so we'll just sit in our lawn-chairs and enjoy the show.

[Nenya]

Mmm, having read through all seven pages over there, it's nice to come over here and have that discussion not recapitulating itself. Maybe I shoulda read this page first. :)

I am deeply amused at all the motorcycle references, though. Somehow I imagine Raj and Izzy heading up the Apocalypse Motorcyclists for Cthulhu.

[Raj]

Nenya: Somehow I imagine Raj and Izzy heading up the Apocalypse Motorcyclists for Cthulhu.

You honor me on SOOOOO MANY LEVELS.

XOXOXO

[Literata]

{{{Deird and anyone else huddling for warmth}}}

[Coleslaw]

Battle Los Angeles was pretty boring, too. Normally I wouldn't have gone to see a movie like that, but it was filmed practically in our backyard. (l..A., LA, what's the dif?)

[Coleslaw]

The perils of posting on iPad. That was supposed to be "L.A., LA"

[Kit Whitfield]

Been reading the discussion thread.

Hoo boy.

Hugs to Deird.

Anyone want to discuss the post in a thread (ie this one) that doesn't have all that history?

[Rakka]

It's just wile over there. I have been lurking here for the LB dissections and only recently started to read the other posts (and comment) and still it pains me to see how different the general mood is at Patheos. Seriously. This blog is as safe place as any I've frequented and it's the commentariat who makes it so. Over there... not a chance. Hugs to all who need them.

What's the difference between LB-God's and the Antichrist's mind control? Is it just a tiny bit unnerving to Ray to Somehow(tm) know that he must accept this job and also Somehow(tm) know it's not the Anti-C but C's will. One and the same, I guess, for what it's worth to humans.

[Literata]

For God so hates the world that he is sending back his only begotten Son, that whosoever beholdeth him shall perish from frickin’ laser beams out of his mouth.

That bit made me laugh. God the Father as Dr. Evil was too much, and spot-on for these authors.

As for what to do to prepare...I dunno if it's just me, but I would tend to try to band together with anybody I could find with similar goals. I get the feeling that's not what L&J would do, though.

[Rakka]

Banding together is the solution for people who are capable of cooperation. This situation is difficult though - even if I and mine survived for the seven years we'd be killed in the end anyway, only to suffer for an eternity because of the whims of a nasty little tyrant.
If it were an "ordinary" end of the world scenario I'd focus on survival and hightailing it to a place where we'd be able to grow food, hunt and gather and not be dependant on scavenging or stockpiled food. Reaching a stabilized, subsistance level survival by gathering, agriculture, fishing, hunting, making clothes and tools and such thirty years down the road and ensuring a reasonably comfortable continued existance for our initial enclave's descendants would be the ideal, helped as much as possible with what technology and medical stuff was left. (Being a living history hobbyist gives a certain edge in post-apocalyptic world.)

But here? It's a seven years and then bam. I'd probably refuse to believe the crap, try to survive and get nailed by TurboJesus in the end for being such an unrepentant sinner.

I was thinking, just some days ago, about how much would I share of what we have stockpiled if some disaster were to strike. If I was with the people I trust, then I wouldn't hold back, but if it were just a random collection of people? Then I'd probably share most of what we have stockpiled (or what I happened to have on me) but I'd probably stash a little somewhere. Such behaviour is not good, as it encourages everyone to hold back, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't do it.

Apropos, The Road was a really good postapocalyptic movie, but it bugged me how only the, hm, not-nice people (pnaavonyf) were cooperating with each other. Anyway, warmly recommended.

[Ross]

{{Deird}}

Y'know, I see a pattern here:

Fred: [poor word choice]
Slactivite: Fred, that was a poor word choice
Concern troll: How DARE you get OFFENDED! *I* Wasn't Offended so clearly you are wrong!
Slacktivite: Intent isn't fucking magic
Me . o O ( Well, he kinda has a point, I don't think this particular word choice should have been a big deal) <- By now smart enough not to post because I can see where this is going
Concern troll: You're over-sensitive! [insert hate-filled vitriolic spew full of dog whistles and bingo squares]
Me . o O ( Oh. Right. WHy do I keep forgetting that this always happens.)

(Techincally, I was right back in step 4. It shouldn't have been a big deal. It shoulda been [accidentally hurtful thing], "Ouch!", "Sorry. Will try not to do that again.", "S'okay, thanks." It's the *concern troll* who made it be a big deal by going off on the person who got hurt.)

Also...

kinda think that being hurt by things that shouldn’t hurt one is bad manners.

is the funniest thing I've heard all day.

---

Btw. It occurs to me that we could probably knock up a bit of javascript to have a button on the page or something that automagically rot13s stuff, which might be handy for folks who can't install extensions to do it for them. I could write one if you like.

[MercuryBlue]

Seven pages of comments there already, and trolling. Oy. Considering whether to wade in.

[MercuryBlue]

Never mind. Patheos seems to be down.

[Coleslaw]

As for what to do to prepare...I dunno if it's just me, but I would tend to try to band together with anybody I could find with similar goals. I get the feeling that's not what L&J would do, though.

L&J are in a tricky position. They assume they are going to be raptured, so asking themselves what they would do if they were left behind is like me asking myself what I would do if I were participating in an orgy and the police showed up. (At the same time, their opinion of non-believers is such that they couldn't write the book from the point of view of real non-believers who have been left behind. So they had to create a strange hybrid of people who were non-believers but not only became instant converts after after the rapture, but also had all of the Bible knowledge and church smarts of the RTC's who were raptured.)

So asking "What if that was me?" is tantamount to asking, "What if I get left behind?" and they just aren't going to ask themselves that.

[Literata]

Great point, Coleslaw. I wonder if that's one of the things Fred meant but didn't quite say clearly.

[Johnk]

They can't even ask "What if this happened to people?" If they can't even imagine their characters as people, how can they imagine them as themselves? While Rayford and Buck are proxies of the authors, they're not as fully-realized as even Lahaye and Jenkins themselves.

[kcs_hiker]

when does anti-trolling become trolling?

oh wait are you calling the original poster who started the whole thing by complaining about Fred's use of the word "insane" a concern troll?? No?

[The Board Administration Team]

@Ross: Btw. It occurs to me that we could probably knock up a bit of javascript to have a button on the page or something that automagically rot13s stuff, which might be handy for folks who can't install extensions to do it for them. I could write one if you like.

That would be exceptionally helpful, thank you very much.

[Nev]

His job was ferrying Nicolae Carpathia wherever he wanted to go, and for some reason, Rayford felt compelled to sublimate his wishes, his desires, his will, and his logic. God had laid this in his lap for some reason, and as long as he didn’t have to live a lie, at least for now he would do it.

This passage, in which the hero's nebulous, inexplicable motivations conveniently line up with the authors' prearranged plot points, reminded me of something out of the Turkey City Lexicon…but on reading through the whole thing again, I can't decide which term applies best. I was probably thinking of "Fuzz":

An element of motivation the author was too lazy to supply. The word “somehow” is a useful tip-off to fuzzy areas of a story. “Somehow she had forgotten to bring her gun.”

but "You Can't Fire Me, I Quit" and "Dischism" could work too.

[Coleslaw]

@Ross

I'm not so sure that I would characterize the discussion in that way. I think if you are going to postulate that "intent is not magic", that should apply to Lori's intent in raising the issue to begin with as well as to Indignation's defense of Fred. Lori's intent was not to be The Spokesperson for ALL Mentally Ill People Everywhere Whether They Like It or Not, but her post pushed Indignation's buttons just the way the use of the word "insane" pushed Lori's. I don't see one of them as being more right than the other. Sometimes people just disagree. Given that Indignation acknowledges* a mental illness, I wonder if hir rigid viewpoint and militant style of advancing it might not be a manifestation of that mental illness.

When I hear the word "troll", I think of someone who is deliberately trying to derail a discussion, not someone who advances an unpopular idea in an unpopular way.

*I'm trying to think of a word that does not imply making a shameful admission. If "acknowledge" doesn't work, I am open to suggestions.

[Coleslaw]

I wonder if hir rigid viewpoint and militant style of advancing

I didn't mean the view itself, but the rigidity in arguing it.

[Kit Whitfield]

Given that Indignation acknowledges* a mental illness, I wonder if hir rigid viewpoint and militant style of advancing it might not be a manifestation of that mental illness.

Whoa whoa whoa now. Seriously. Seriously.

Here's what we don't know:

1. What mental illness Indignation suffers from.
2. Whether said illness is being treated with medication.
3. Whether said illness is being treated with therapy, and if so what kind.
4. Whether said illness is likely to make somebody rigid in their thinking.
5. What kind of person Indignation is aside from the mental illness.
6. That Indignation is telling the truth and expressing his/her real opinions at all.

Here's what we do know:

1. People with mental illnesses can be extremely reasonable in internet discussions.
2. People without mental illnesses can be extremely unreasonable.
3. People with mental illnesses are often stigmatised because too many people conflate 'mentally ill' with 'unreasonable.'
4. People in marginalised groups often have their identity used to undermine their credibility.

Not cool, Coleslaw. Not cool.

[Mink]

Good heavens. The concern trolls are out in force on Patheos. That's a shame. :( {{{Deird}}} and all those fighting the good fight. :( It's like some people just enjoy kicking over sandcastles.

For what it's worth, I did enjoy and appreciate Madhabmatics' post on Jinn; it was very informative!

[Coleslaw]

Here's what we do know:

1. People with mental illnesses can be extremely reasonable in internet discussions.
2. People without mental illnesses can be extremely unreasonable.
3. People with mental illnesses are often stigmatised because too many people conflate 'mentally ill' with 'unreasonable.'
4. People in marginalised groups often have their identity used to undermine their credibility.

I don't see how what you say contradicts what I said. I said "I wonder if . . .", not "This is definitely so". Far from thinking Indignation's credibility should be marginalized, I think the person should be listened to (not necessarily agreed with, but listened to).

Not cool, Coleslaw. Not cool.

If there is one thing I have learned at the ripe old age of 63 it's that I'll never be one of the cool kids, and I'm okay with that.

[victoria]

Whoa whoa whoa now. Seriously. Seriously.

What Kit Whitfield said. PLEASE, let's not go there, it's too early in the day for me to give up spoons over another rehashing of Why It's Not OK to Make Stereotyped Assumptions Based on Someone's Mental Health Diagnosis.

[Kit Whitfield]

I said "I wonder if . . .", not "This is definitely so".

So what? The implication was clear: you were pathologising behaviour that you didn't like based on no knowledge at all of the person or the illness.

Let me rephrase 'Not cool' in clearer language:

Shame on you.

[Jarred]

If they can't even imagine their characters as people...

I think this is an important thing. This isn't a story about the people. The characters in the story (with the possible exceptions of the Mary Sues, but I suspect that's even up for debate) are actually just props. The story isn't about how they face the disaster, it's about the disaster itself and showing how awesome and "just" God is by creating all these disasters.

No one really cares what might happen to the furniture when the big disaster strikes. And to L&J, the people in their post-Rapture world are just more furniture.

[Mmy]

what Kit and Victoria said

[Kit Whitfield]

Indignation appears to have flounced. I'm no doctor, but reading hir exit screed, there's nothing in it that suggests mental illness to me. Just standard That Guy On The Internet-ness. World's full of 'em.

If anything, I'd point to this as evidence that mental illness sufferers are normal people. Normal people vary, and some of them are jackasses.

--

Coleslaw, let me address you in personal terms.

I recently made public on Patheos that I'm currently suffering from postnatal depression - which is to say, I have a mental illness.*

I'm also a person who gets into disputes with people. Sometimes, I dispute in a very determined and intransigent way because I'm certain that I'm right. Sometimes I advance my case forcefully.

Sometimes I am a person vulnerable to the statement 'I wonder if hir rigid viewpoint and militant style of advancing it might not be a manifestation of that mental illness.'

It's got nothing to do with the depression, of course. I'm an intellectually assertive, opinionated person. Always have been, since long before I ever had a baby. But if you wanted to dismiss, discredit, disrespect and degrade me, I've made enough public that it would be extremely easy to do so.

And as long as we consider it acceptable to pathologise behaviour purely because we find it objectionable, it will remain easy.

I don't like the argument Indignation was making or the terms zie used, but it was a disgracefully disrespectful way to talk of hir. It just goes to show: disclosing a mental illness lays people open to attack - inappropriate, stereotyping, prejudiced attack - and the attackers will shrug it off.

In making that statement, you undermined me. You undermined everybody on this board who has publicly disclosed that they've ever suffered from a mental illness. You owe us an apology. Or at least, some of them may not want one, but I certainly do.

*I'm okay, before anybody asks. I got some Sertraline out of the doctor and am feeling myself again. I'll have to take it for a few months at least, but I'm one of the lucky ones: I think this is going to lift off me and stay off.

[hapax]

For what it's worth, I did enjoy and appreciate Madhabmatics' post on Jinn; it was very informative!

Would somebody mind cutting and pasting, or providing a link?

I'd like to read that, but I bailed out of that cesspool quickly.

[Literata]

Jarred, do you think it be more accurate to say that the only way L&J really ask "What if that was me?" about their stories is to ask "What would I do if I were God?"

[MercuryBlue]

*I'm okay, before anybody asks. I got some Sertraline out of the doctor and am feeling myself again. I'll have to take it for a few months at least, but I'm one of the lucky ones: I think this is going to lift off me and stay off.

Glad to hear it, Kit!

hapax, hold that thought, I'm going in. (Nothing else to do. I gotta learn to work slower.)

[MercuryBlue]

Gotta quote Andrew: I believe in Jinn and Tonnyx.

Ah, here we are.

Hahaha well that's opening a can of worms, but that really depends on a few things.

First, the idea of what Jinn are capable of varies a lot by country. The idea existed way before Islam and our religion doesn't tell us a whole lot about them so of course many people have their own idea of what's going on - in poorer areas you'll find people who believe they have malignant powers to give you sickness and whotnot, but if we go by what most Muslims agree on from the Quran and Hadiths we get:

A) Jinn are free willed and basically the equivalent of humans, and have some minor powers (appearing as animals like snakes and scorpions) as befits their being ethereal.
B) They are invisible. That's kind of silly but it's a big deal because it's accompanied by the idea of an invisible world that we aren't to mess around in - God empowered the Prophets to knock around in it, but it's forbidden to us. Likewise, Jinn are forbidden to mess around and try to goof off with us.

Basically the idea is, yeah, we could hook up with a Jinn and ask for favors, and some people might do that. The weird part is that jinn might come after us and ask for favors in the same sense, breaking that same taboo, for the same reason (we might be capable of things they are incapable of - like growing some delicious dates for those jinn nerds to try to steal from our gardens :argh:!)

But as for Jinn doing magic, that goes back to the free will thing - I mean Jinn aren't automatically magicians or anything just by virtue of being ethereal. They follow religions (I wouldn't call them "Human religions" because the idea is that religion is universal, either correct or incorrect, and dividing them into "human" or "jinn" religions would be a false distinction) which may or may not prohibit magic. A Christian or Muslim jinn isn't going to be doing magic for anyone because they probably would imagine it being sinful. They have the same capacity for "magic" that we have.

Maybe you could talk an Asatru jinn into it? Surely if we accept the whole Jinn thing in the first place there are going to be Asatru jinn, and Hindu jinn, and so on and so forth.

Like in Islam, this is why the Prophet always warned that Jinn lied. Not because they were a species of liars - they are just as capable of virtue as we are - but because any Jinn that tells you they know The Absolute Truth about religion for a fact is trying to con you, because they are just as in the dark as the rest of us.

But... then you get into the local variations, of which there are a metric tonne. Like some Muslims think that they can possess people*, others disagree, some think they can control the weather or crops or rivers or whatever, and others disagree with that. The thing is, though, that if you meet a Muslim that does think that they can be summoned to do magic, it's not going to be like some hermetic "Aha, the seals of solomon" type thing, it's going to be more like

"This jinn can give someone one heck of an EVIL EYE and they won't be able to see it moohahaha"

or

"My personal jinn (the Qareen I mentioned earlier) can talk to this other person's and get the dish on what they did in the past"

so tl;dr Yeah it'd be more like what you said (a Christian believing people can summon demons) and less like "dude i'm gonna rub me a lamp and force this jinn to grant me a wish / make me a magic carpet."

*There's a hilarious video of a "professional exorcist" in Egypt who is convinced that the Christian Jinn of the city have a plot to possess a bunch of people and force them to convert to Christianity.

[Jarred]

@Literata: Jarred, do you think it be more accurate to say that the only way L&J really ask "What if that was me?" about their stories is to ask "What would I do if I were God?"

I hadn't really thought of that...I think you might be on to something there.

[Lucia]

At the risk of getting flamed up one side and down the other...

I didn't see any problem with Fred's use of the word insane until it was pointed out, I think because I don't hear/read the word as referring to mental illness, at least not in current discourse. (If I were reading Jane Eyre it would be a different story.)

Some other terms I might use to characterize views that I find completely at odds with reality and/or people holding those views: crazed, mad, wacko, nuts, wingnut(ty), loony, lunatic, a few sandwiches short of a picnic, not wrapped too tight. If referring to actual mental illness or a person with mental illness I would say (has) depression, (has) mental illness, bipolar, or some other clinical term describing the specific mental illness.

I wouldn't want to hurt or offend anyone, and I've learned not to say lame or spaz or retarded (that last one used to be politically correct but has now been replaced with developmentally disabled). But... language is so rich, and the tendency to use metaphor so strong, it's hard. Should I try to avoid offending second-year students, or lovers of aquatic birds?

I know, I know, privilege check. I go back and forth on this. I'm working on it.

(Fwiw, my brother suffers from depression, my son is developmentally disabled, and I am very fond of loons myself.)

[MercuryBlue]

Sickening thing for the day: http://thecurvature.com/2011/03/22/louisiana-law-forces-many-sex-workers-to-register-as-sex-offenders/

[MercuryBlue]

views that I find completely at odds with reality and/or people holding those views

That conflation right there? That's problematic. There's something to say about the rest of that paragraph, too, but I'm not the one to say it, at least not till I figure out where my words went.

Your effort at improvement is however appreciated.

I haven't quite learned not to say 'lame'. I don't say it in text, unless I really mean to say it, because text I can and do edit before posting, but the other day I was talking with someone and realized half a sentence later I'd said 'that's lame'.

Um. What do second-year students have to do with anything?

[Literata]

MercuryBlue - I think Lucia meant the insult "sophomoric."

[MercuryBlue]

Ah.

[Will Wildman]

What do second-year students have to do with anything?

'Sophomoric', I'm guessing. I don't know about the standard use of that word, but I think it'd be good to have a term that means 'the kind of vast ill-formed creativity and variable insight that is common among new university students who believe that their intro-to-stuff courses have empowered them to Know Truth'. We probably don't have a single word for that yet.

If I ever start a blog, I suspect that I would have a recurring feature on 'here is why this commonly-used word may be problematic; let's look for some other options'.

I would kind of like it if we could reliably divide language so that 'insane' meant 'mental illness impeding rationality' and 'crazy' meant 'in opposition to sense', and there was a very clear understanding that 'insane' and 'crazy' were two totally different things, but I don't know if that's doable right now. (I'd also like it if the Athenian definition of 'idiot' could be the only meaning, 'one who is so focused on a minor issue or their own self that they refuse to consider the good of their society'. Again, probably can't get that one either.)

However, when I look at RTCs who choose to side with TurboJesus, or at politicians who fight progress because it scares them or threatens their power, I start thinking that 'cthulhic' could be a good word. It would refer to Cthulhu and other eldritch abominations of the cosmic horror genre, specifically the tendency for people who look at them or become totally detached from reality and start trying to end the world. It would mean 'knowing good and evil and choosing evil'. It means looking into the abyss, recognising that it is the abyss, and then going off to advocate for deregulating abysses, indeed, making abysses mandatory.

[Lucia]

I like cthulhic, although I don't think it's likely to catch on, because not enough people know the reference. The state of education in this country, o tempora, o mores, etc. But we do have sociopath/ic, which is close. (No one seems to mind potentially offending sociopaths, or people with antisocial personality disorder, or whatever the proper term would be.)

It's interesting to me as a linguist which terms go from purely descriptive to insulting to offensive, and which ones don't. I can say, for instance, "I was struck dumb with surprise," or, "that's a dumb idea," and no one thinks I'm being insensitive to people who are unable to speak. (As far as I know. The culture is constantly changing under our feet.) "Their protests fell on deaf ears" is a tricky one: some uses of deaf are considered offensive, others are simply descriptive, and others may or may not be offensive depending on how clear it is that you're talking about refusal as opposed to inability to hear.

Btw, yes, sophomoric was what I had in mind. I didn't mean to imply that it was associated in any way with mental illness, just that it's an insult that no one thinks twice about even though it speaks ill of thousands of people -- probably because it's something we all go through, becoming juniors eventually. I think of it as similar to juvenile or puerile, as in, "I can't help liking Dave Barry's brand of sophomoric humor."

[Dav]

No one seems to mind potentially offending sociopaths, or people with antisocial personality disorder, or whatever the proper term would be.

Hi there! This isn't just about offending sociopaths; this is about conflating sociopathy with a specific sort of awfulness. No, let's go with semi-made up words. Pleasepleaseplease.

[Johnk]

The use of the word "juvenile" to describe, say, bigotry or the kinds of things that certain unethical practices in big business and government reminds me of the use of the word "bestial" or "animal-like" to describe things like terrorism. Because, you know, mountain lions are always trapping themselves with bombs and wandering into coffee shops in Haifa, right? At least, they do it as often as 10-year olds start fraudulent hedge funds and teenagers pass legislation intended to intimidate abortion-providers and women seeking abortions.

[Will Wildman]

Lucia: I have encountered people who see problems with 'dumb' as it relates to muteness, although it is presumably situational (like most things). As Dav points out, I think it's mostly about conflation: if the implication is that a particular failing is comparable to having a particular trait (such as a disability). If I say climate-change-deniers are 'blind', that's not okay. If I say I am 'crazy' about etymology, I think I'm unlikely to hurt anyone.

[Sixwing]

Hi there! This isn't just about offending sociopaths; this is about conflating sociopathy with a specific sort of awfulness. No, let's go with semi-made up words. Pleasepleaseplease.

Seconded. (Or nthed, if someone beats me to it.)

Also, Johnk, yes. All of that.

[Mmy]

@Lucia: No one seems to mind potentially offending sociopaths,

I might not mind offending sociopaths but I would rather nervous doing so. Real sociopaths make very scary enemies.

[Deoridhe]

As an AsatruaR, I find the image of an Asatru Jinn universally charming. It reminds me of our wights and landvaettir, who are spirits all around us who we can't see but who we can interact with to make our shared world better (or worse).

I was thinking re: the question of "what if it were me," was that my first throught would be to finding a safish place with land and access to fresh water, and getting as many of my clients there as I can.

[Literata]

Deoridhe - interesting idea! That together with the above makes the whole idea of jinn more accessible and understandable to me. There are some places with stronger, or at least more obvious to me, spirits than others. I have also wondered at times about language/culture differences between me and different places and landwights.

You know, I think this points up another big lack in L&J's thinking. You and I and a lot of other people would respond to this crisis by trying to find a place where we can get our immediate physical needs met - land, water, food, safety, etc. We immediately realize that those needs aren't magically provided for by jinn or our wives or whatever other beings we've gotten to serve us. L&J don't think like that. I wonder if that's a combination of putting themselves in the position of God, as Jarred and I were discussing, and their lack of connection to their physical surroundings? I don't know if they're part of the "Fight the Green Dragon" crowd personally, but their subculture is the same one that produced that line of anti-environmental thinking. These guys aren't just certain that their physical needs can and will be met, they're not even interested in how those needs are met, or how those needs connect them with the land, let alone with other human beings.

[hapax]

Thank you MercuryBlue. That post was well worth the read.

(Must ... fight ... off ... plot ... bunnies....)

I dunno. If it were me; if I were absolutely convinced that the God I love was a vicious omnipotent toddler, and the world I treasure and all its inhabitants were doomed to seven years of unbelievable suffering and then to an eternity of GREATER torture or mindless Stepfordization ...

...y'know, I'm not proud of it, but it's very likely I'd try to beat that Not!God to it. I'd be like John at the end of CAT'S CRADLE, except DELIBERATELY (do I need to to ROT13 this for spoilers?) vasrpgvat gur bprnaf jvgu vpr-avar, gura serrmvat zlfrys ba n zbhagnva crnx bs n qrnq jbeyq, znxvat na bofprar trfgher gb Tbq.

[Dav]

hapax, I was just considering whether it might be worthwhile gb tebj tvnag svryqf bs cbccvrf naq avtugfunqr fb gung crbcyr pbhyq unir cnva eryvrs be npprff gb uhznar(vfu) fhvpvqr vs gurl sbhaq gurzfryirf orvat gbegherq. V qba'g xabj jurgure gb ubcr gung gurl unq n zbzrag jurer gurl pbhyq npprcg Gheob!Wrfhf vagb gurve urnegf be abg; znlor V'q whfg bssre vg nf na bcgvba.

There's definitely some interesting theological implications; depending on what loopholes you might be able to exploit, it seems like there's numerous "damn yourself to save others" scenarios.

[Literata]

Interesting. If God turns out to be the Romans, except worse, do you join the Jews at Masada? I'd thought that too, but was too ashamed/concerned to mention it. And on that depressing note...has anyone around here read SM Stirling's Change novels, starting with Dies the Fire? I'm closely reminded of that scenario as well.

[Mink]

It actually makes for an interesting plotline. On the one hand, the Tribbles do their part to support TurboJesus's return, the Antichrist is busy happilly making mince of the world with his Deviltopia that starts out cool but gets blown apart around him courtesy of Wrath of God. Then the Day of Judgement comes, TurboJesus comes down, and there's this one little (or maybe not so little) stronghold where people are refusing to be called lambs or goats. And then there's the ultimatum: Nobody gets Heaven on Earth until everyone submits to judgement. And there follows the second battle of Har Meggido....

[deoridhe]

Literata: My UPG (unusual/unsubstantiated personal gnosis) is that landvaettir / beings like Surt and Ran / disir and alfar / other non-god spirits are much more immediate location based than worshipped gods and tend to stay more localized; of course, Ran has the whole ocean, theoretically, so maybe localized is the wrong word. I've been very interested in Shinto for this reason, since kami seem to be closer to what AsatruaR mean by "god" and "wight" than the more Roman and Christian senses of the words, where there are power demarkations between "god" and "everyone else". Shinto, like the Irish religion, is very location based and closed to outsiders, though, which means I tend to default to Japanese folk beliefs rather than Shinto per se.

The whole worshipped vs appeased demarkation, instead of a power demarkation, may also explain unspoken cultural differences I find between myself and the culture I'm in now, 10+ years into being AsatruaR. Briefly (I'm typing on a phone and it kinda sucks), I've found it much easier to hold a post-modern sensibility that we create our own language and culture, that cultural differences between cultures can exist without a hierarchial relationship between them, and that culture and words are deeply important as frameworks for understanding everything even while they are largely subjective and changeable. I would lay the genesis of this mindset on the doorstep of internalizing my religion more fully.

[Skyknight]

Looking at this quote:

What he had been learning from Bruce and his own study of prophecy indicated that the day would come when the Antichrist would no longer be a deceiver. He would show his colors and rule the world with an iron fist. He would smash his enemies and kill anyone disloyal to his regime. That would put every follower of Christ at risk of martyrdom.

You'd think Jenkins (and maybe LaHaye) would notice one slight problem with the last three sentences. Namely, they can easily be tweaked as follows:

God would show his colors and rule the world with an iron fist. He would smash his enemies and kill anyone disloyal to his regime. That would put every non-follower of Christ at risk of martyrdom.

(Well, maybe not the third sentence QUITE like that...) I'm not sure how Jenkins and LaHaye think that it's wickedness when the Antichrist does it, but not when God does it. Do they see ANY stricture that God is beholden to?! (Granted, this is coming from someone who isn't confident that omnipotence and omnibenevolence can coexist...)

[Lila]

I don't have the gumption to fight the good fight on Patheos--2 policemen were shot here today, one fatally, and the suspect fled to a location near where I work, giving me a good dose of the flashbacks--but I applaud and support those of you who are in the trenches. Thank you.

[Mmy]

{{{Lila}}}

I admit Patheos looks daunting to me. Not only are we having to fight the same fights all over again but something about the board's design itself makes it difficult for me to follow what is going on.

[hapax]

Oh, Lila. I'm so sorry to hear that.

Mmy, I have the same problem. I keep *trying*, but that font and the layout and the reading backwards just makes me tired and my head hurt.

[detroitmechworks]

Don't think I'll be posting over at Patheos any more. If I have something to say on Fred's stuff, I'll say it here. There are so many trolls over there that I don't want to give the appearance of doing it again.

And to EllenJay, at least IMHO, God is the ultimate badass cool dude who smites his enemies, and YOU DON'T WANT TO BE HIS ENEMY, DO YOU? It's fricking summer blockbuster action messiah, complete with redemptions for all his Jimmy Olsen buddies. (Ok, that last part was a little stupid, but that is kinda what these stories feel like to me. The adventures of Jimmy Olsen, except Jimmy does less crossdressing and hangs out with Lex Luther in this version.) (But that begs the question if Buck is Jimmy, who's Ray in this scenario?)

[Ross]

Offtopic: Here's a dose of fail that came to me today by way of the twitter hive mind:

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lie27aSpNo1qd458oo1_500.jpg

(Nongraphic, nothing overtly per se offensive, but possibly triggering in its accidental implications.)

[Amaryllis]

{{Lila}}
---
God would show his colors and rule the world with an iron fist.
No no no, that's not right. God/TurboJesus will rule the world with an iron rod! It's quite different! (And furthermore, a sharp sword will come out of his mouth: let's see Nicky Alleghenies top that.)

---
Have just looked at Slacktivist@Patheos and omigod! qwerty'daftie is back!
That's all that thread needed.

Yes, it's not that battles are any worse than we've seen over here-- it's just that it seems to be the same battles all over again. And I feel bad that I don't have the time or energy to fight them in any kind of "real time."
*looks admiringly but guiltily toward Deird*

@hapax: I admit the format is kind of off-putting, but I selfishly hope you'll continue to drop in over there occasionally, to leaven the place with your particular brand of Christianity.

[Nenya]

Jimmy Olsen did crossdressing?

[Ravanan]

Bah Crtl-C failed me when I reloaded the page. To make this shorter than I had it:

Where did the whole things with spoons come from?

@MercuryBlue *thump.thump.thump.* Sorry, that was the sound of my forehead against the nearest wall. I like the idea of a well-considered version of the registry (no sex workers, public urinators, or kids having sex with their own general age group) available to the police, but making them public always seems to lead to this. And even ignoring everything else, the idea of horribly punishing people after they have ostensibly served their time does not seem to me to be any sort of good.

@Skyknight I'll just point out to you Fred's numerous discussions of the overlap between the plans of God and the Anti-Christ and his discussions of how LHJ love absolute despotism with their masturbatory fantasy role model as ruler.

[Deird, who has spoons today]

Where did the whole things with spoons come from?

From The Spoon Theory. The term seems to have taken on a life of its own.

[Ravanan]

Ah thank you. Interesting read.

I've seen similar exercises, but most were in a slightly different vein (time management).

[Firedrake]

Given the situation as painted, I think it's fair to say that your broad choices are to go along with the NWO, to go along with the Supine Christians, or to fight.

If the Supine Christians are right, it doesn't really make any difference in the long term - either you'll become a lobotomised praise-bot, or you'll be in eternal agony, but either way you won't meaningfully be you any more. So you might as well fight, and do something worthwhile while you're still yourself.

And maybe they aren't right.

(Contrast Soon, where the NWO-alike actually has some - OK, lots and lots - of beneficial effects for what starts to look like everyone except the RTCs...)

[Literata]

Deoridhe, that's interesting - my UPG agrees with yours. The other relevant UPG I've had is that when trying to work with wights or other location-specific spirits, the more of a language/culture distance (I won't say barrier.) there is between us, the more my "sense" of them and of any communication is mediated by images/emotions rather than more specific or language-borne thoughts. I've also found that the more I know about the relevant culture, the easier it is for me, especially in terms of having accessible images in mind.

[Amaryllis]

UPG? What...oh hey! I can work Google!

Ah. "Unverified Personal Gnosis." Interesting. And if I weren't supposed to be working, I'd do some reading and thinking about how that compares with the Christian concept of "private revelation," and how grateful I am that, even when I was a more faithfully practicing Catholic, I didn't have to believe in anything coming out of Medjugorge, for instance...But, back to work.

(But if anyone wants to go on talking about djinn and landwights and such, I'll be fascinated to read it later.)

[MercuryBlue]

Ross: *wince*

Speaking of sex offender registries and sex workers, vg jnf ba gur arjf ba gur enqvb guvf zbeavat gung fbzr ASY thl tbg fvk zbaguf cebongvba (cyhf tbvat ba gur ertvfgel) sbe frk jvgu n frk jbexre jub vf abj friragrra. Fvk zbaguf cebongvba sbe jung, vs fur unqa'g orra pbreprq vagb orvat n frk jbexre (nf V'z qrnq pregnva fur jnf), jbhyq or fgnghgbel encr, naq orpnhfr fur jnf pbreprq, jnf nyfb bhgevtug encr.

*hates the world*

[Lonespark]

You people are too interesting! I have other things to do!

I am very interested in the local aspects of traditional religions. And I have much more to say about wights and gods and languages and geography and geology, but I have to go bring in the tricylces, etc. because it's supposed to snow again. Bah!

[Mmy]

@Lonespark: I have to go bring in the tricylces, etc. because it's supposed to snow again. Bah!

Speak it to me sibling!!

Yesterday I was seriously thinking of taking down the extra winter insulation we have over all the windows/doors/chimneys of our house. Last night we had freezing rain, today we are having ice pellets and they are talking of closing schools in a not-that-far-away-city.

Winter -- I am officially sick of it.

[Jarred]

I've been very interested in Shinto for this reason, since kami seem to be closer to what AsatruaR mean by "god" and "wight" than the more Roman and Christian senses of the words, where there are power demarkations between "god" and "everyone else".

I think this is common in a lot of Pagan traditions. I've heard similar comparisons being made between various gods and other spiritual beings of various Pagan traditions and the Loa of voodoo or the Orishas of Santeria.

[Rupaul]

@Amaryllis, can you say more about "private revelation"? Is this considered good or bad in traditional, or say Catholoic,
spirituality? For us Quakers, personal revelation is practically the core practice. I've heard that Mormons also believe in personal revelation. UPG is a new one to me; I will also google that!

[Literata]

Yeah, I like UPG because it gives us a format to talk about "this thing I felt/thought/envisioned" with an explicit accompanying statement that "this applies to me and I am not trying to exercise authority over you." When people's UPGs agree, that's reason for further discussion and comparison with other sources, and people or groups might hold tentative theories based on inter-supporting UPGs (Diana Paxson gives the example of multiple UPGs supporting the idea that Frigg likes the colors blue and white.), but none of it is a basis for telling other people they're doing it wrong. In fact, it puts almost equal emphasis on comparing, talking about, and thinking about disagreeing UPGs.

[MadGastronomer, who is very tired]

I've been very interested in Shinto for this reason, since kami seem to be closer to what AsatruaR mean by "god" and "wight" than the more Roman and Christian senses of the words, where there are power demarkations between "god" and "everyone else".

If by "Roman" you mean Roman Pagan, then that line isn't as sharp as you think, and there are many gradations between the Olympians and the small spirits of everyday things, all of whom are part of the continuum of the genius. Even the deeply legalistic religion of pre-Christian Rome is not unlike Shinto and Asatru in this.

[Brin (not Meir)]

>Winter -- I am officially sick of it.<

Totally. For a few days the snow had completely melted, and now it may as well be late January out there. The forecasters think it will last the rest of the week. I hate it when spring is put tantalisingly within our reach, then snatched away.

[MercuryBlue]

I was all set to join the complaints about the continuing winter, but you've got snow, so you've automatically got it worse than me.

[Ravanan]

@mercury That's nothing. The story's a little old at this point, but (warning MASSIVE trigger alert):

Onpx va 2006, gur fba bs gur Nevmban Fgngr Frangr'f Cerfvqrag, nybat jvgu n sevraq bs gur uvf (ntrf 18 naq 19) jnf n pnzc pbhafrybe ng n yrnqrefuvc pnzc. Va gur pbhefr bs gur pnzc, gurl raqrq hc ercrngrqyl fubivat oebbzf, synfuyvtugf, naq n pnar vagb gur erpghzf bs gur 18 11-14lb oblf yrsg va gurve pner, sbe chavfuzrag sbe fznyy fyvtugf (yvxr snegvat be znxvat n zrff) be fbzrgvzrf whfg sbe gur uryy bs vg. Gur fba'f sevraq nyfb nccneragyl pubxrq frireny bs gur oblf hagvy gurl cnfrq bhg.

Gurl jrer rnpu punetrq jvgu 18 pbhagf bs nffnhyg (abg frkhny nffnhyg) naq 18 pbhagf bs xvqanccvat fvapr gurl uryq qbja gur ivpgvzf ntnvafg gurve jvyy. Gur nethzrag jnf gung "jryy gurl qvqa'g VAGRAQ sbe guvf gb or frkhny nffnhyg, naq gurl nera'g [DHVYGONTf], fb jr'yy whfg punetr gurz jvgu nffnhyg." Ab, frevbhfyl, gur cebfrphgvat nggbhearl fcrpvsvpnyyl fnvq gung gur snpg gur pbhafrybef jrera'g tnl zrnag gurl qvqa'g qrfreir gb or punetrq jvgu frkhny nffnhyg. Gura ba gbc bs gung, gurl tbg n cyrn onetnva jurer gur Frangr Cerfvqrag'f fba cyrnq gb bar pbhag bs nffnhyg (erfhygvat va n cranygl bs 90 qnlf cevfba naq 500 ubhef pbzzhavgl freivpr), naq uvf sevraq cyrnq gb gjb pbhagf (180 qnlf cevfba naq 500 ubhef pbzzhavgl freivpr). V fhccbfr abj jbhyq or n tbbq gvzr gb abgr gung Nevmban Fgngr ynj qbrf ABG erdhver vagrag sbe frkhny nffnhyg, bayl gur npgvbaf. Nyfb lnl sbe qbhoyr fgnaqneqf. Gur cebfrphgvat nggbhearl rkcyvpvgyl fnvq gung vs gur ivpgvzf unq orra tveyf, gurl qrcnegzrag jbhyq unir cebonoyl punetrq gurz jvgu frkhny nffnhyg.

Raq erfhyg: gjb nqhygf jub nanyyl ivbyngrq 18 xvqf jvgu oebbzf, synfuyvtugf, naq n pnar naq culfvpnyyl nffhygrq gurz va gur zber genqvgvbany frafr, naq tbg bss jvgu 3 naq 6 zbaguf cevfba, erfcrpgviryl, naq 500 ubhef pbzzhavgl freivpr. Yrzzr znxr vg pyrne: sbe gurve pevzrf, gurl jrer fcrpvsvpnyyl ABG erdhverq gb ertvfgre nf frk bssraqref. Naq gur sngure bs gur svefg pbhafrybe, gur Fgngr Frangr Cerfvqrag, unq gur tnyy gb pynvz gung gur ehyvat jnf hasnve naq gurl jrer QVFPEVZVANGVAT ntnvafg uvf fba orpnhfr bs gur cbfvgvba bs cbjre gung ur uvzfrys bpphcvrq.

Citation 1
Citation 2

[Mmy]

@MercuryBlue: you've got snow, so you've automatically got it worse than me.

We have a "pizza size" satellite dish. Last night there was so much ice frozen on the surface that we lost our signal and mmyspouse had to go out to clean it off.

(One thing you can say about the old C-band dishes is that rain and snow didn't disrupt the signal -- but one pulls in very little on them now that everything has gone digital.)

[Dash]

Re trolls on the Patheos site: I don't think they've been worse than I've seen here. There are some people who want to raise issues that have already been dealt with here, and they need stuff explained to them again, but then, that's what those of us who are posting on Patheos probably have to expect.

My own sense--and this is purely my own sense of things, could be wrong, YMMV, all other customary disclaimers apply--is that the problem posters on Patheos respond best to brusque "get lost" statements (yay, Deird!), or one-time explanations followed by "we have explained this to you. Stop spouting the same nonsense" (yay, Lori!).

My thought about Indignation (the annoying person with rigid viewpoint) is that a little learning is a dangerous thing. I suspect Indignation had an introductory linguistics class at some point and really, really wanted to say that signs are arbitrary (true) but failed to note that they are used by humans to communicate, which means they necessarily also become fluid and nonarbitrary in that context. Truly sophomoric, in the sense of combining some wisdom with some nonsense. But mmy covered the issue of communication quite effectively in a post on Patheos.

[JE]

@Ravanan: That's horrible!

[Mmy]

@Dash: My thought about Indignation (the annoying person with rigid viewpoint) is that a little learning is a dangerous thing. I suspect Indignation had an introductory linguistics class at some point

That was my feeling too -- which was why I posted a "probably boring" and very pedantic response to hir. Zie seemed to learned a few things fuzzily and over generalized them to a completely inappropriate circumstance.

[sarah]

I just read through the Patheos thread. Oh, wow.

I'm another one of those with a mental illness. I appreciate Fred's changing the word, even though I kinda skimmed the post and didn't pick up on it the first time 'round.
The use of "crazy" and "insane" colloquially--it sometimes bothers me, sometimes doesn't. I often say that I'm "crazy busy," which I think is different than, say, conflating "crazy" with "evil." In any case, what I think has already been said a dozen times over.

[[Dash: I suspect Indignation had an introductory linguistics class at some point and really, really wanted to say that signs are arbitrary (true) but failed to note that they are used by humans to communicate, which means they necessarily also become fluid and nonarbitrary in that context.]]

Wooo deconstruction. Yes, this. I looked at his or her post on linguistics and had an "I don't think it means what you think it means" moment.

[sarah]

Also, not to be pedantic, but shouldn't it be "What if it *were* me?" Am I wrong? Did someone else already point that out?