At Patheos: TF: We defy augury

Fred Clark has posted a new Left Behind post, We defy augury, at Patheos

Excerpt:

Our stories need heroes because we need heroes. The heroes don’t have to win. They don’t have to succeed in changing anything or saving anyone. But they have to try. They "have to go forward, groping their way through the darkness, stumbling perhaps at times," and try to do what good lay in their power.

When Buck here announces and demonstrates his unwillingness even to try he surrenders any claim he might have had to being a hero in this story.

This story has no heroes.

[from Fred Clark, TF: We defy augury, April 11 2011, posted at Patheos.com]

Commentators who would like to share their responses to the new post with all of Fred's fans (old and new) can cross-post to both boards.

Comments

[Coleslaw]

Fred makes some interesting observations about the meanings of "wrath" that I wish he would expand on in future posts.

[Ruby]

Hard to be a hero when you think that everything has already been laid out in advance and you have to let Satan do what he's foretold to do, lest you mess with the plan.

[Mmy]

I wish Fred had made it clear that the story about the man and the woman at the truck was from the last episode of the last season of Joss Whedon's Angel, (Not Fade Away.) That episode, that season and one can even argue that television show was about the very thing he is discussing -- how to be a hero in a world when one has no assurance that what one does will make any difference.

[chris the cynic]

I've been meaning to make more of A Word Without God (honest I have) but I just haven't gotten to it. As a result this has been sitting on my computer untouched since December 30th of last year because I haven't yet written the story that leads up to it. Even so, I doubt there will ever be a better time to share it than right now.

-

There is a story, often told. The details are seldom the same, because the story isn't the kind that needs consistent details. It always takes place on a beach, always after a storm, and always in the morning. The storm, it seems, had pushed the water onto the land much farther than it would normally go, and when the water receded it left behind much more than it normally would. Doubtless there was seaweed and and crabs and periwinkles, but we don't really know because the story isn't about them. No, for this story what matters is the starfish.

The beach was littered with them. Hundreds if not thousands dotting the beach as far as they eye could see until the beach bent back way from the ocean and disappeared behind the houses that had been built on its border. Unlike the crabs that may have been washed ashore the starfish could not scurry quickly back to the ocean. They moved too slowly to save themselves and were drying out in the freshly risen sun.

It is at this point that a child is introduced. Let us say a little girl, though that is by no means certain. What matters is not her gender, or her race, or her creed. What matters is not her nationality, or her class. What matters is not her family history, or her friends, or her political views, if she is even old enough to have formed them. So all of these things are passed over in favor of what does matter, and what does matter is what she did. She walked along the beach picking up starfish and throwing them as hard as she could as far as she could into the sea. As soon as one was safely in the water she would move on to the next, and then the next. And so on.

Then another character walks onto the scene. An adult. I like to think he's an old man whose wrinkled face makes you believe that he is a font of wisdom earned from a long life in which he has seen it all. Sometimes I think he has a cane, others I think that a cane probably isn't a good thing to have on the loose sand of the beach. Sometimes I feel like he has a long gray beard, link Gandalf or Dumbledore, others I feel that he he is clean shaven. None of that matters. What matters is what he says. He sees the girl, throwing a starfish into the sea, running to the next one, throwing it into the sea, and continuing onward. He discovers that she is trying to save them, perhaps by asking her, perhaps he simply knows. Either way, he says, “There are too many of them, you'll never make a difference.”

For a moment the girl stops. She glares at him. It is a hard cold glare. A mixture of determination and utter contempt. Then she bends down, picks up a starfish, and throws it into the sea. She looks back at the old man. “I made a difference.” She pauses for a moment. “To. That. One.”

And the story ends. We don't learn how the old man responds, if he does at all. We don't know if either of them is changed by their encounter. We don't know how many starfish were saved and how many died. We don't know what becomes of the old man and the girl. We don't know anything like that because that's not what the story is about. The story is about that one, the starfish she made a difference to. The entire point of the story is summed up in the last seven words of dialog, because what the story is about is that to make a difference doesn't require massive numbers. The story is about the fact that making a difference isn't about nudging the needle from evil to good.

All that is required to make a difference is that you change one life for the better.

I use this story for shorthand. When someone asks me why we should try to distribute food when there are too many hungry people to have any hope of helping, I say, “Starfish.” When someone asks why we should try to tell people the truth about god and the Antichrist when there are so many people, and we'll never tell, much less convince, them all I say, “Starfish.”

When someone asks me why we're about to go on a rescue mission when we can never free all those who don't deserve to be imprisoned, I say, “Starfish.”

We can't do everything, we can't save everyone, but we can do everything we can for those who are in front of us. At the moment that is Jenny and her team. They were captured because they helped us find the hub, if not for us they'd still be safely undercover. That makes us about as close to them as can be. They're a cluster of five starfish that we're practically standing on we're so close. It would be evil not to help them return to the safety of the ocean. On the way we'll free as many others as we can. Or die trying. Dying trying is always a possibility.

[Mmy]

@chris the cynic: That was a very powerful and disturbing story. The image of the starfish on the beach is actually nightmare fuel for me.

[Andrew Glasgow]

I'm almost certain I read this in a comment thread here sometime in the past, but google searches have not been kind to me.

--
A priest, a rich merchant, and a grizzled old soldier were sitting at a roadside inn talking when word came that Ragnarök had begun, that Loki and the giants were winning in their battle against the gods, and that Odin, Freya, Thor, and all the others were sure to die.

The priest said, "Oh my... I wonder if Loki has need of priests? Perhaps I should immediately go and pledge my loyalty so that the new rulers of the world will find me useful.

The merchant said, "I'm sure the giants have need of gold -- I will offer them a generous tithe to buy my life."

The soldier said nothing, but picked up his axe and gear and walked out the door. "Where are you going?" asked the priest and the merchant.

"I go to die with Odin."

[Lila]

Yeah, but you know, you might as well TRY to thwart the destruction of the world. I mean, sure, it's supposed to be God's unstoppable plan; but if it's unstoppable, then nothing you do can mess it up--so you've got nothing to lose. Then if it turns out the destruction of the world ISN'T God's plan after all, you're golden.

(Shorter and much cleverer me: "It might be written differently somewhere else." "Where you can't read it." "In capital letters." "Twice." [I beg your indulgence if that's a misquote--I can't find my copy of Good Omens.])

[Amaryllis]

@chris the cynic: keep writing. You have a real gift for this.

(And I have a starfish as a login icon on one of my systems. Thanks for the reminder! "Starfish.")

[chris the cynic]

Yeah, but you know, you might as well TRY to thwart the destruction of the world. I mean, sure, it's supposed to be God's unstoppable plan; but if it's unstoppable, then nothing you do can mess it up--so you've got nothing to lose. Then if it turns out the destruction of the world ISN'T God's plan after all, you're golden.

Because my self promotion is shameless, I once wrote a story where Buck tried to be a hero but was still mostly LB Buck.

Entire story spoiled in two sentences, with a third sentence of explanation:

The fact he actually stopped Nicolae broke his brain. The fact HE stopped Nicolae brought him back.
(Buck operates on narcissism, the realization he had thwarted God's plan rebooted his system.)

[hidden_urchin]

@ chris the cynic

That was really a great story at a time when I really needed to hear it. Thanks for reminding me about what's important.

[Cliff]

So my sister joined a fairly extreme evangelical church a while back (she's got stories about people speaking in tongues, things like that). We were talking about it, and somehow we got onto the topic of the Antichrist.

I asked her, if the Antichrist is prophesied by the Bible, ie he shows up at the tail end of God's plan for the Earth as revealed to man, then how can he be evil? (Mind you, this was long before I found Slacktivist and began to understand that the popular conception of the Antichrist is fictional.) If you oppose the Antichrist, then you oppose God's Master Plan, and that seems to be antithetical to Christianity. I would think.
She said she would have to go talk to some people at her church, and then never brought it up again.

So basically what I'm saying is that Fred went back in time three years, read my mind, and returned to write a blog post about it today.

[Ian]

chris the cynic -- that was well told.

mmy: The image of the starfish on the beach is actually nightmare fuel for me.

I'm curious as to why. I can think of several possible nightmares. Here is the silliest:

Penta Pentasdottir hit the beach at high tide, riding the storm. With agonizing slowness, she edged her way up the north face of Pebble Beach. It took hours to reach camp one -- just a puddle of rainwater, but it offered a brief respite from hypoxia and a chance to refill her ampulla. There was no time to rest, not with dawn fast approaching. She knew this was not the first attempt to solo climb Dungeness Claw IV, but she knew it would be the first to succeed.

Hours later the heat was becoming unbearable, but with the Western Cwm already behind her she was a dash ahead of schedule. One last push would put her on the summit. Her radially symmetric mouth was locked in a grim smile. It was then that she felt The Hand. Her tube feet were wrenched from the rock, flailing helplessly. She felt the acceleration in her gut, then found herself hurtling through empty space.

Nausea. Vertigo. Eyeless, she could not know where she would land. If she struck dry ground her broken body would be food for the gulls; if she dropped in the deep water, far above the safety of the shadows of the ocean’s floor, the sharks and otters would be waiting. Worst of all was the fear of drifting to the bottom and landing feet up. She had just a few seconds before her fate would find her, but that was time enough to throw out her limbs and laugh – she’d never dreamed she’d climb so high.

Why doesn't anyone ask the starfish what they want?

[Asha ( EHHH??)]

Slightly OT, but I have just started into "Percy Jackson and the Olympians," and I'm already feeling... uneasy, about it. There is the implication that only those with divine blood can effect the world in any meaningful way. It's part of the reason that I could never finish Harry Potter, either. Mere mortals can't fight back. Muggles are the playthings of the special ones, of the gods, or in this case God. Here are Buck and Rayford, whatever else they may be, but normal humans. (Ish. I doubt L&J sees them as such.) Yet they just sit there and wallow in their helplessness and it makes me ill. While realistically, yeah? Average Jane can't do it all by herself, but I like to see normal people overcoming the odds in my fiction. That's why I read fiction. I want to see them try. But not because they are 'special,' in that they are born that way. Just because. I liked Animorphs for that particular reason. These were kids who had hell thrown at them and struggled and found allies and fought back.

It's another reason I dislike Twilight: regular people suck. And not just as a vamps snack, either. There are no exceptional humans. And any time I read that, it just makes me howl.

[Jarred]

So my sister joined a fairly extreme evangelical church a while back (she's got stories about people speaking in tongues, things like that). We were talking about it, and somehow we got onto the topic of the Antichrist.

Speaking in tongues does not necessarily equate to extremism, nor is it limited to evangelical churches. (The charismatic movement hit just about every Christian denomination at one time or another.)

This is not to say that I doubt your sister's church was extreme. I'm simply pointing out that your example of something that made it extreme was poorly chosen.

[Jarred]

It's another reason I dislike Twilight: regular people suck. And not just as a vamps snack, either. There are no exceptional humans. And any time I read that, it just makes me howl.

I can sympathize with it. I had a similar problem with The Incredibles, especially the couple times when they brought up the idea that "everybody's special" means that "nobody is special." It seems to reinforce that idea that the only way to be someone of value is to be "better" than someone else.

[Rowen]

I've said this before, but this is one of the reasons why I really like China Mieville. His characters and settings are fantastic, but the main characters are almost always normal(ish) people thrown into chaos. In fact, the latest one I read, the main character didn't become special until the very end.

[Mmy]

@Rowen:

I am embarrassingly under read in respect to Mieville. I was excited to start The City and The City and found the world building interesting. Unfortunately I found the book/writing rather flabby as I continued and, believe it or not, found the denouement rather predictable.

Is there a different Mieville book that you would recommend?

[Nick Kiddle]

//Slightly OT, but I have just started into "Percy Jackson and the Olympians," and I'm already feeling... uneasy, about it. There is the implication that only those with divine blood can effect the world in any meaningful way.//

Embittered cynic that I am, I see that as accurately representing the world we live in. Or, to put it slightly more constructively, it's often the case that only certain kinds of people drive action in fiction or have their stories told. A book like "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time" is special and recognisable because it has a clearly neuroatypical protagonist - and that's extremely rare. There are all kinds of artistic reasons for it as well as the social ones, but I wish we had more stories like that.

[Amaryllis]

I liked Animorphs for that particular reason. These were kids who had hell thrown at them and struggled and found allies and fought back.

Well, but, the kids in Animorphs may have started out as regular people, but they didn't stay that way for long. And the war for Earth went on between them and the Yeerks, without, IIRC, much/any involvement of regular humans, who were mostly oblivious to the fact that their world was under siege.

I prefer to think of that kind of fiction as something of a metaphor; not so much "Desperate times require desperate remedies" (as Guy Fawkes didn't say). But more like, "The hour brings forth the man*" (or woman, or boy or girl or starfish or centaur, as the case may be). That is, in desperate times, some people rise to the occasion in a manner that Exceeds Expectations. Act as heroes, in fact. And Harry Potter and Percy Jackson and the Young Wizards and so on, all fit that template.

It seems to reinforce that idea that the only way to be someone of value is to be "better" than someone else.
As an aside to the main post, Fred comments that

We encounter a similar ambiguity with the deadly sin of pride. That word, too, refers both to one thing that is necessary and virtuous and also to another thing that is vicious and evil.

There's a difference between the kind of pride that says, "I'm better than you," and the kind of pride that says, "I can be better than me."
Better, that is, than my own worst impulses; better than my self-doubts; capable of doing the right thing; worthy of love.

Which is a kind of value that doesn't depend on comparisons with anyone else.

I didn't see The Incredibles: would you say that it was, metaphorically speaking, about developing and using your own unique capabilities, or establishing a ranking system for who's better than who?

---
*Yes, I know:
"It is said that the hour brings forth the man. He was the kind of man that is brought forth by devious and unpleasant hours."
Pyramids
You get that kind, as well as your heroes, sometimes.

[lalouve]

My take on God's plan to end the world is that so far as I know, my part in God's plan is to clothe the naked and feed the hungry. There was no exception made for those whom God might have made naked and hungry (which, incidentally, I don't believe He does); if God's commands to me happen to go against His convoluted plan for the apocalypse, I fail to see how that is my problem.
Also, Starfish is the name of Rutger Hauer's help organisation: http://www.rutgerhauer.org/rutgerhauer.org/index.php

[Rowen]

@Mmy,

The City and the City took me forever to finish, especially since it was such a short book. However, I really enjoyed Perdido Street Station (and I feel it's his most. . complete work) and LOVED the Scar despite its very obvious flaws. Iron Council could have been worth the trudge, but he made some very odd choices.

[Jarred]

I didn't see The Incredibles: would you say that it was, metaphorically speaking, about developing and using your own unique capabilities, or establishing a ranking system for who's better than who?

It wasn't about developing unique capabilities at all. It was about a family with superpowers living in a time when all supers were required to go into hiding, led by a father who remembered the "good old days" of saving the day and wished to have them back.

The "everybody is special means nobody is special" came up twice in the movie (that I recall):

1. The first time was spoken by Dash Incredible, a young boy who was frustrated by the fact that he had to hide his superspeed (this meant his parents wouldn't let him try out for sports because they his competitive nature would get the better of him and cause him to show off his powers.)

2. The second time was by Syndrome, the archnemesis in the show. At the beginning of the movie, Syndrome (who then called himself IncrediBoy) was a boy who admired Mr. Incredible and wanted to be his sidekick. Mr. Incredible dismissed the boy, because he had no superpowers. So the boy grew up, created all kinds of incredible gadgets that made him appear to be super-powered, and decided to become evil in order to get revenge on his old idol. His plan was to give out his technology so that "everyone would be super, therefore making no one super." (Relatively, obvious.)

I should also note, after more thought, that my issue isn't so much with the movie, but with a friend or two who latched onto that phrase to prop up their own pre-existing idea that they needed someone to be better than.

[Lonespark]

Hey you guys!
This is off-topic from everything, but I just found out about this artist's work and it's kind of blowing my mind, and especially this painting (hope the link works right):

http://kentmonkman.com/works.php?page=painting&start=27

[Lonespark]

This one is cool too.

http://kentmonkman.com/works.php?page=painting&start=23

They're probably all cool. I have different degrees of understanding the various allusions and layers of meaning...

[bluestar]

I've been lurking for a while, but this is my first comment. Fred's post about heroism and the starfish story as well as the other comments have really given me encouragement to do whatever good I can at a time when I needed it. Thanks.

[Albanaeon]

Funnily enough, way back in my college days, I actually used something similar to Lewis's ideas that Fred used in his post to get a pair of missionaries (really self-righteous and irritating ones. You would think that harassing people around their lunch time at college would be a self-defeating strategy) to go ahead and say that God was evil, since we couldn't have an objective measure of "good" from an infinite being, but by our limited standards, killing everything definitely was an evil act. They were stopped in their tracks briefly, then realized that everything I had said or used wasn't in the Bible, and, reassured of their rightness, continued to try and convert me. Needless to say, I wasn't exactly impressed.

[Ima Pseudonym]

chris the cynic: I love love LOVE your 'A World Without God' stories. You have a real genius for evocative and symbolically powerful scenes, and for little, unsettling details that make your pieces altogether more visceral, disquieting, and hard to ignore than the typical apocalypse story. I really like that you've included so many vignettes along with (and as a part of) the main narrative - it really gave me a sense of a world that has become a horror and of the people trying to survive in it.

Okay, I'll stop gushing now, but I'm with Amaryllis on this one: you've got a real knack for this. I'd love to read more of your stuff.

(Also, "starfish"! I'll have to remember that one.)

[Vermic]

I asked her, if the Antichrist is prophesied by the Bible, ie he shows up at the tail end of God's plan for the Earth as revealed to man, then how can he be evil? (Mind you, this was long before I found Slacktivist and began to understand that the popular conception of the Antichrist is fictional.) If you oppose the Antichrist, then you oppose God's Master Plan, and that seems to be antithetical to Christianity. I would think.

I think about this problem every time there's a movie like "End of Days" where the plot is about preventing the biblical apocalypse. It's generally accepted without argument that, hey, everyone knows end of world = bad, therefore stopping it = good. But as we've seen, it's more complicated than that. If the Bible, and every other source that predicts the apocalypse, also says that it's God's will and ultimately a good and necessary event, on the far side of which lies universal bliss, on what grounds can you really stand in opposition to it?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's totally reasonable for a hero to say, "Screw ultimate destiny; decisions like that are above my pay grade, but if I can prevent the deaths of billions then that's what I'm gonna do." I just wish the moral quandary was acknowledged more. Very often it's presented that God is on the side of preventing the apocalypse, which seems backwards.

It would be interesting if the Antichrist gets blown up or whatever, and the last shot of the film is the hero looking around at this fallen, corrupted, stinky world (that being the state the world is generally supposed to be in when the apocalypse kicks in), and the hero's like, "Well, thanks to me, this craphole gets to keep spinning like this for another few thousand years. Um, yay?" Credits!

[JessicaR]

@Jarred The Incredibles is the Pixar film I have the most trouble with, even more than Cars. There's a lot in it I like, but the unspoken message that some people are naturally our betters and we should accept our place in the pecking order sits very poorly with me. And there's the character of Dash. Dash is a hateful little brat, and worse as the scene showing how he was using his powers to play tricks on his teachers he has the beginnings of a dangerous bully. Dash is a very good example on how virtue alone is not enough of a check on untold power, and how just because you take up the mantle of hero doesn't make you one.

I love Wall-E so much more for it's message of how we may be small but we can all do something to better the world, robots and humans alike.

[hapax]

Very often it's presented that God is on the side of preventing the apocalypse, which seems backwards.

IIRC, Asimov had a story in which an angel with a fondness for us people managed to get the apocalypse *postponed*, because gur Raq Qngr jnf fpurqhyrq cerpvfryl sbe n cnegvphyne lrne -- naq vg pbhyqa'g unccra hagvy nyy bs uhznavgl nterrq ba n fvatyr pnyraqne.

[Deird, who needs to rewatch]

Average Jane can't do it all by herself, but I like to see normal people overcoming the odds in my fiction. That's why I read fiction. I want to see them try.

That's one of the things I like about Avatar: The Last Airbender. There are plenty of "non-special" people around, and they still do stuff. Often, they even beat the "special" people.

[Jason]

eye-talics

[Deird, who isn't awake yet]

Sorry, early in the morning...

[interleaper]

I understand TBAT are now empowered to deal with this sort of thing.

However, I'm curious to see if the old ways still work.

[Froborr, who has too many things to do]

@Deird: Ye cats, yes. Sokka and Suki are more than capable of keeping up with their super-powered compatriots, and Ty Lee is potentially the most dangerous person in the show.

I also really like how, in several incarnations of the Justice League, Batman is the most dangerous of them and the one all the others are afraid of.

I love The Incredibles, but I read it rather differently: It's about not hiding your talent under a bushel. I think it's significant *who* says "When everyone's special, no one is," specifically the villain and the brat. These are not depicted as reliable narrators, so I don't think we can take it as given that the movie agrees with them.

@chris the cynic: I love that story! I will need to remember to read more when I'm less busy.

@Ian: I like your story, too! I'm especially impressed that you whipped it up that fast in response to this thread.

[Brin (not Meir)]

Re: Asimov

Nyy bs uhznavgl? Nf V erpnyy, vg pbhyq rnfvyl (fubhyq vg orpbzr arprffnel) or vagrecergrq nf nyy perngherf, vapyhqvat gur aba-fncvrag barf. Whfg gel rkcynvavat gb na ncuvq rira gur pbaprcg bs n pnyraqne, yrg nybar pbaivapvat vg gb hfr n cnegvphyne bar.

[The Board Administration Team]

@interleaper: However, I'm curious to see if the old ways still work.

Yeah, the old way still works and it is always appreciated if someone steps in so that comments don't get lost in the "italics blur" before a member of TBAT swings by.

BTW, if anyone is interested -- the reason way </em> works better than </i> is that TypePad uses the former rather than the latter in its own flavour of HTML for designating italics.

[MercuryBlue]

Also at Patheos, another brilliant person who insists all of us stressing over impending Tax Day are in fact stressing over being shot if we miss Tax Day. *beats head on desk* Taxation is NOT ARMED ROBBERY FOLKS.

[chris the cynic]

I also liked Ian's story.

@Vermic

I have seen a movie where the goal of the protagonist was, basically, to bring about the apocalypse. Sort of. I only saw the end of it, so I might be a little off on the details. (I think it was one of the post-Walken made for TV Prophecy movies.)

As I recall it went something like this:

[I don't think it's worth rot13ing, it wasn't a good movie or anything. Anyway, spoilers follow.]

God was keeping a journal, I don't know why. The pages would magically fill with prophecy or truth or whatever as it became relevant. It came to the attention of some rebel angels that God was planning this whole apocalypse thingy. They thought this was bad because afterwards human beings would be elevated and be good and happy and ... damn it that's just wrong!

Some background might be appropriate here, the thread running through all of the Prophecy movies is that there were two rebellions in Heaven. First Lucifer tried to overthrow God and was defeated and cast out. The second war was about humans, angels, and the relative positions of the two. Lucifer put it like this, "Other angels have made this war because they hate you, you and all humans. God has put you in His grace and pushed them aside." The lead rebel said this, "I don't wanna be a god Simon. I just wanna make it like it was, before the lie. When He loved us best."

The second war never ended. It dragged on for thousands of years.

That's the context the movie I'm talking about finds itself in.

The apocalypse would end the stalemate, people would be elevated to what God considered their rightful place, and the rebel angels would lose. Humanity would win. So the rebels wanted to stop the apocalypse at all costs. Part of the mythology of the setting is that war in Heaven prevents human souls from entering, so at this point they've been effectively keeping humans down for thousands of years, the prospect of all of that being overturned in an instant is unbearable.

Ok, so, back to the plot. God has a diary, I don't know why. There is a woman who keeps it safe, I don't know why. When the time comes the diary will say the name of the antichrist (who is a small child at this point in time.) The rebel angels want to learn that name and kill the (small child) antichrist thus preventing the apocalpse and keeping all human souls far, far away from Heaven.

The woman goes to Lucifer (I think it's Lucifer) for help (they have some kind of history) and Lucifer helps because the apocalypse sounds like a great idea to him. (Every damned soul in existance being sent to Hell all at once instead of having them trickle in one at a time? Wonderful!) It is never established why God has given him a management position, or why God intends to continue letting him administer Hell after the world ends. Or why he wants more souls in Hell, for that matter.

In the end, the bad angels (at least the ones trying to get the diary) are stopped, the page about the antichrist ends up separated from the rest of God's diary, and it drifts on the wind until it is picked up by the small child who will some day be the antichrist. He reads it.

No idea what it says, maybe it's a contract from God, "If you bring about the apocalypse, I will give you pie."

The credits roll.

Or something like that.

[Mmy]

@MercuryBlue: Also at Patheos, another brilliant person who insists all of us stressing over impending Tax Day are in fact stressing over being shot if we miss Tax Day

Interesting to "look south" at this issue. Canadian taxes aren't due till the end of April and we go to the polls (federally) May 2.

For Americans who can pick up Canadian channels -- the first (English) leadership debate is on tonight at 7 EDT.

[hapax]

@Brin (not Meir) -- that would have been an even BETTER ending, no question. But it would have been wildly out of character for Asimov.

@ chris the cynic -- now you are making me think about the awesome HELLBLAZER story arc, in which Heaven and Hell are both gung-ho for the imminent apocalypse, and only John Constantine foresees that whichever side wins, humanity is bound to lose.

Of course, being Constantine, his solution manages to leave both sides more p*ssed off at him than they are with each other.

[hapax]

Don't talk to me about taxes. I just realized this week that the bank completely FUBAR'd my statements, and I'm frantically filing extensions on everything.

(Bank representative: "I don't know what those numbers mean, either. But I'm sure your tax preparer can figure it out."

Me: "Oh, yes, I'll just drop all these forms off with my accountant, then. Right after the chauffeur fetches the maid back from running the chef's errands."

Sheesh, the dude is looking RIGHT THERE at how much money I have. He seriously thinks I can afford to pay someone to do my taxes for me?)

[depizan]

@Froborr These are not depicted as reliable narrators, so I don't think we can take it as given that the movie agrees with them.

The movie may not intend to agree with them, but there are two things (possibly three) that make that not so clear. The first is that, unless I'm remembering incorrectly, we are shown no gadget-heroes, but at least two (and possibly all three) of the villains shown are gadget-villains. So, if you use science to go beyond your human limitations, you turn evil? (The possibly three is the fact that superheroes could be forced to retire and not be heroes. This seems utterly impossible in a world where there are super-powered supervillains. So... all powered people became heroes? Because they are better than the rest of us?) The second is that Dash (the brat) is allowed to race against normal people at the end. That's not a race! It's a forgone conclusion! Have sports meets for super people, sure, but having super people compete against non-super people is not a competition.

So... which is it movie? Are we all supposed to be our best and not hide our lights under bushels or are some people just better?

[Deird, who can afford a nice merlot]

Sheesh, the dude is looking RIGHT THERE at how much money I have. He seriously thinks I can afford to pay someone to do my taxes for me?

I pay my brother-in-law. In wine.

[Andrew Glasgow]

@Deird: Better than being paid in gum.

[Lila]

Nick Kiddle, have you read The Speed of Dark?

[alienbooknose]

Hapax: ugh, sorry about your tax woes. sounds awful.

[Nick Kiddle]

//Nick Kiddle, have you read The Speed of Dark?//

I haven't, although it looks like a book I'd enjoy. I guess I'll add it to the long list of "books I'll be sure to read if I ever get the opportunity". (Time and money both conspire against me reading all the books I'd like to.)

[depizan]

On the subject of the TF:

These books really amaze me (and not in a good way). Not only do they feature a god better suited to the Cthulhu mythos or Warhammer 40k (the chaos gods thereof, that is) but their "heroes" well be less heroic than the average person reading the books. Buckyboy would have nothing to lose in telling the President that Nicky Pennines is the Antichrist, or at least in trying to save the President's soul. There is no reason for him not to try. He's saved. What is the Antichrist going to do to him? The absolute worst he could do is kill him, which isn't really that bad, considering he's saved, so all that will mean is he'll miss out on the Antichrist's reign. But even that isn't likely from what we've seen. So, when faced with a choice between doing something good with no real risk and doing nothing, Buckyboy chooses... doing nothing.

I'm not sure whether I'm more horrified by Ellenjay's version of God or their version of good.

[chris the cynic]

Lila, someone somewhere said it went like this:

“But it might be written differently somewhere else,” said Crowley. “Where you can’t read it.”
“In bigger letters,” said Aziraphale.
“Underlined,” Crowley added.
“Twice,” suggested Aziraphale.

But I don't actually know where my copy of Good Omens is, so I can't check.

[Mime Paradox (formerly The Other Ian)]

Frobbor:

I also really like how, in several incarnations of the Justice League, Batman is the most dangerous of them and the one all the others are afraid of.

I don't know; while it's made for good stories, it's gotten to the point where Batman does have a super-power: being Batman. People who aren't Batman may train just as hard, but will be relegated to second place because they're not Batman. It's one of the reasons I don't like The Brave and the Bold much: the format and tone takes the "Batman=God" up to eleven, to the point where it's unbearable.

[Cliff]

This is not to say that I doubt your sister's church was extreme. I'm simply pointing out that your example of something that made it extreme was poorly chosen.

Fair enough, I don't have a lot of experience with churches or the charismatic tradition.

How about this:
She's mentioned that they inveigh against the theory of evolution, and the time she talked me into going, the pastor used atheists as a boogeyman in his sermon.

Also (and this is only tangentially related):
They passed out little slips of paper with Scripture on there, but the quotes had parenthetical insertions in them. Is that customary?

[Ruth (otherwise known as alfgifu)]

They passed out little slips of paper with Scripture on there, but the quotes had parenthetical insertions in them. Is that customary?

I've never come across that before, but it sounds like it comes from the same school of thought that produces Bibles full of inserted text boxes with 'historical context' and 'inspirational stories' or sometimes explicit 'this is how you should read this passage' style instructions. That does seem to be mostly an evangelical phenomenon, at least as far as I've encountered it. Though the impulse is clearly more widespread - a few years ago, when I was a penniless student and decided that I really needed my own scholarly NRSV I ordered a hefty and rather expensive tome that called itself a study Bible. I was furious to find that the majority of the impressive footnotes were there to reinterpret each passage in the light of what I think might be liberation theology. Not that I necessarily disagree with the underlying principles (social justice, woo!) but I didn't buy the Bible to get the theology and it's sort of nails-on-the-blackboard to look down expecting perhaps an alternative way of reading the original Greek and to find instead a patronising little spiel about what the Kingdom of God really means.

---

Put me down as another person who is a bit uncomfortable with the recurring 'special people' theme in books, shows and films. I don't mind it so much when the implicit tension is acknowledged and allowed to drive the plot (e.g. Harry Potter), but it still leaves a sour taste in the mouth. It seems to come up a lot in stuff aimed at young people, perhaps because of the need to get adults out of the way so the kids can drive the adventure.

When I sat down to write for that audience myself it was one of the first things I decided I wanted to avoid at all costs (along with the 'useless adults' trope and the tendency for plots to be driven by mechanics such as prophecy or mcguffin hunts rather than character choice). I don't know how well I've pulled it off, because I've also tried to stick to a world which is very much like our own and that means limiting the number of characters who have access to magic. I've done my best to design a universe-mechanic that could include anybody.

[personal gripe time] Got another rejection letter from an agent yesterday. Sigh. [/personal gripe]

[Asha ( EHHH??)]

@Nick Kiddle:

To clarify: it bothers me that being a specific category of human makes you heroic is what bugs me. From "Percy Jackson and the Olympians" you have only the half-bloods who are capable of changing the world. I have nothing against Percy himself, but there don't seem to be any normal humans with a hat in the ring. In Harry Potter, there were no heroic muggles that I recall. A person's moral character and their personal achievements are not the same "You are one of the XYZ people. For no other reason, you are awesome. These are the ABC people and they don't count." It just grates on me.

I agree with why Avatar: TLA was so awesome- being a prince didn't mean you were necessarily better than the peasant, and the princess could be a truly horrible bitch. The characters were fleshed out and did not fit a type.

While people might get unexpected abilities, it's the implications that they have this attributed status without much work involved that bothers me. Real life might be like that, but it just bugs me and feels like a disservice to your characters.

[Dragons in Dungeons]

I think in alot of ways we're seeing a resurgence of what may as well be termed the 'anti-hero' meme.
During the 80's this generally took the form of ultra-violent heroes who had nothing to offer society besides witty one liners and a trail of corpses in their wake.

Turn to the 2010's and the anti hero meme takes the form of heroes who simply do nothing! (Not exactly high brow but I just finished reading the Deep Gate Codex, and was struck by how apparent this was, the main character did absolutely nothing, and in fact was killed by the 3rd book, making no impact at all on the story, the secondary character merely existed to kill things the hero was incapable of dealing with - a neat handing over of the torch of "anti hero"). Now the interesting thing about all this is the author wasn't even a poor writer! Indeed his supporting cast were vivid, believable and compelling, but all of those who would fill any role you would describe as 'central' to the plot were blank canvases, doing nothing of interest beside walking through the story.
(It is perhaps worth pointing out that the author of the deepgate codex is one of the writers of the Grand Theft Auto's dialogue, so perhaps the blank nature of the hero is a symptom of computer gaming, allowing us to project our own motivations upon them?)

[sarah]

@hapax: Yikes. Tax problems = :(

My work put me in the wrong tax bracket, and so when I was doing my taxes, I realized that I owe a lot of money this year because they haven't been taking out enough. Cue frustration and a need to grumble at HR or whoever (though I like our HR person. It's probably not her fault).

[MercuryBlue]

Asha, can we not use the word 'ovgpu'? Please? No matter how much it looks like she deserves it. Also, I have the impression that Azula is mentally ill, and we really don't need to be stigmatizing mental illness any more than we already are.

[Jason]

(It is perhaps worth pointing out that the author of the deepgate codex is one of the writers of the Grand Theft Auto's dialogue, so perhaps the blank nature of the hero is a symptom of computer gaming, allowing us to project our own motivations upon them?)

Its interesting that you should mention that. I came across a thread in one of BioWare's forums saying that Commander Shepard from Mass Effect was a dull, uninteresting character who has very little character development and all the supporting cast in the game is much more developed and interesting while the protagonist is rather dull other than being a hero or anti-hero as the player chooses.

I personally never found Shepard any less interesting than anyone else in the game which has great characters.

Then someone responded that Shepard is your character. If you find Shepard boring, its the fault of your own imagination. Then I realized that I had a preconceived idea of what I wanted the character to be like when I was choosing responses for her in dialogue and making decisions for her, I was doing them in the context of what I personally wanted the character to be like and she had motivations that I was personally assigning to them that weren't actually in the game, so basically all of her character development, motivation, and to a certain extent some of her backstory exists entirely from my own imagination..........and I didn't even notice until it was pointed out to me. That's pretty cool.

[Jon Maki]

Just a drive-by to mention that today is the birthday of everyone's favorite ("favorite") creator of hateful, Christian fundamentalist sequential art-based propaganda, the one and only Jack T. Chick!
Jack turns 87 today, which is a long, long time to have to wait for The Rapture...
Also of note is that Jack's birthday is shared by Ron "Hellboy" Perlman, which means that I've got representation from both Heaven and Hell on what is also my birthday.
(Sharing a birthday with Chick is amusing; sharing a birthday with Perlman is awesome.)

[Vermic]

@Ruby: lest you mess with the plan.

This phrasing makes me imagine LB's God as Hans Gruber from Die Hard, which ... actually would answer quite a lot of questions.

@chris the cynic: Wikipedia suggests the film you saw was The Prophecy: Uprising, or possibly it's follow-up The Prophecy: Forsaken. (Wow, Kari Wuhrer's still acting! The things you learn on the internets.) I never saw any of the Prophecy movies -- they always seemed to me like Terminator ripoffs, only with angels and Christopher Walken. Come to think of it, that sounds pretty awesome; why haven't I seen them yet? To the Netflix-mobile!

The Prophecy movies seem to hinge on the discovery of a previously-unknown extra chapter of Revelation which contains some additional dire predictions ("And lo, I did see five movies approach, and Christopher Walken followed with them"). That plot device might be a biblical-thriller subgenre in itself; I think Stigmata was all about a lost Gospel that the Catholic Church was trying to conceal.

[hapax]

Happy birthday, Jon Maki!

[Hyp]

Happy birthday, Jon Maki!

[Raj]

The origin of The Starfish Story.

I've been known to pick up earthworms stranded on pavement and throw them back onto grass/mud.

[Jason]

@Jon-

Just a drive-by to mention that today is the birthday of everyone's favorite ("favorite") creator of hateful, Christian fundamentalist sequential art-based propaganda, the one and only Jack T. Chick!
Jack turns 87 today, which is a long, long time to have to wait for The Rapture...
Also of note is that Jack's birthday is shared by Ron "Hellboy" Perlman, which means that I've got representation from both Heaven and Hell on what is also my birthday.
(Sharing a birthday with Chick is amusing; sharing a birthday with Perlman is awesome.)

Happy Birthday.

I'm not so sure that Jack Chick counts as representation from heaven. Although I think there will be Chick tracts in heaven, but only because heaven won't be heaven without something good to snark on.

[Rowen]

I still think of Ron Pearlman as either the Beast or sometimes that one guy in City of Lost Children.

[Rowen]

@Jason,

My brain keeps trying to put your sentence to music. Specifically, Eric Clapton's song, Tears in Heaven. ("Chick Tracks in Heaven?")

[Jon Maki]

@ Jason: Well, I was honestly leaning more towards Hellboy representing Heaven...

Thanks for the birthday wishes, everyone.

[Mmy]

This isn't really a "drive by" since I will probably be checking on the board off and on today.

My mother died a year ago today.

This weekend we held a family memorial to celebrate her life. In just over an hour my father is attending a mass in honor of her. My father met my mother in the early 1940s and though he is doing quite well he wakes up every morning to find that the object around which all his thoughts and emotions have revolved for over 60 years is missing.

[Jason]

@mmy-

condolences. )-:

[Froborr, who has too many things to do and is sick and keeps looking over his shoulder...]

You know, my brain's been eaten by the Slender Man Mythos for the last five days or so, and here's another setting where, faced with a completely hopeless situation against an enemy so incomprehensible you can't even be sure it actually *is* an enemy... and yet multiple different creators have all come to basically the same conclusion: People will still fight to save themselves and others. They'll doublethink and cognitive-dissonance themselves into believing they have a chance, even if the resulting strain puts them at risk of psychotic break... but they won't just roll over and do nothing.

[Froborr, who has too many things to do and is sick and keeps looking over his shoulder...]

My condolences, Mmy.

[Semperfiona]

Condolences to mmy on the anniversary.

---

Happy birthday, Jon Maki! It's mine too, though I'm not so much of a commenter yet.

[Rebecca]

"And lo, I did see five movies approach, and Christopher Walken followed with them"

Hee! Vermic, I always love your comments.

[sarah]

Condolences, mmy. Sending good thoughts your way.

[Jon Maki]

@Mmy: I'm very sorry to hear that.
April had always been "birthday month" in my family, with one of my sisters, my dad, myself, and my oldest brother all having birthdays within a roughly two-week period. Ever since my dad died, the month has been tinged with sadness because it marks yet another birthday that he didn't have. He would have been 76 on the third.
Hmm, and I don't seem to be doing very well with the "drive-by" thing myself. I suppose I should get on with the business of doing whatever it is I'm going to do today.

[syfr]

mmy, condolences.

Raj, I too am a worm-picker. I try to get them in a place where they won't drown, which is why they left the dirt for the concrete in the first place.

[Rowen]

In regards to Percy Jackson and Harry Potter, I feel that in those settings, the super special people are fighting against other super special people that I would probably not be able to stand against (i.e. Could I and a group of friends stand up to Voldemort? probably not, so I kinda don't mind not seeing what would be canon-fodder, unless it's really a part of the plot.) YMMV, though, and I do find that this type of trope can be really taken to extremes, especially when we start dealing with Unique and Special Snowflakes (I'm looking at you, Paolini . . .).

As for Avatar:TLA, I felt that the only "normal" person we kept seeing on a regular basis was the cabbage seller. Sokka and Suki both trained all the time, and started at an early age. To me, they're like those 15 year old Olympian athletes who go to school, train, sleep, and have been doing that since they were 2, and I don't view that as "normal" (normal, like it's not in the majority area of the bell curve of human experiences, as opposed to weird or freakish). So, in my mind, you had the Avatar, the bestest water bender, the bestest earth bender, the bestest swordsman, and the bestest female warrior, a flying six legged bison and a lemur thing going out on a traditional Five Man Band. It was Conan, but with Asian teens. Again, YMMV (that's not to say I didn't love the show).

[MercuryBlue]

(i.e. Could I and a group of friends stand up to Voldemort? probably not, so I kinda don't mind not seeing what would be canon-fodder, unless it's really a part of the plot.)

The Bakshi Solution by Tarkas. Implemented by wizards, mostly, but it's all Muggle technology. Sadly one must be a registered user of PhoenixSong.net to read the fic, but it's free registration.

Hope you're having a good day, Jon; hope you're not having too bad a day, mmy.

[Froborr, who has too many things to do and is sick and keeps looking over his shoulder...]

@MercuryBlue: Is that a reference to Wizards? I love that gloriously terrible pile of dreck!

[Jarred]

They passed out little slips of paper with Scripture on there, but the quotes had parenthetical insertions in them. Is that customary?

Probably not.

The one thing that did occur to me is that there is one paraphrased version of the Bible out there (I can't think of its name) that lists alternate meanings or synonyms, for a given word in parentheses of numerous passages. The idea here is that the authors of that version wanted people to understand how the original could be interpreted in a variety of ways and let the reader decide which specific understanding they felt made the most sense.

However, I don't get the impression that this is the kind of parenthetical insertion you're talking about.

[Jarred]

@mmy: My thoughts are with you.

[Froborr, who has too many things to do and is sick and keeps looking over his shoulder...]

@Rowen: I think the distinction is that Sokka and Suki and Batman aren't supernatural Chosen Ones, but rather the Choosing Ones. They are not inherently superior to other humans; they have just worked very very hard to develop certain skills, at the expense of time devoted to developing others. (This is especially clear with Batman when he's well-written; he has the emotional and social development of a small child in some areas, a teenager in others.)

To an extent this is true of Katara and Toph (I love love love LOVE that metal bending *isn't* a brand new magical gift that no one else has received, it's an intelligent application of well-established principles that no one else has had motivation and opportunity to figure out yet), but they started out with a supernatural gift most people don't have and developed it, as opposed to Sokka and Suki who started with nothing outside the normal range of human variation.

[MercuryBlue]

Froborr: *nodnod*

[kisekileia]

@mmy, I'm sorry to hear that.

In Harry Potter, I think the problems with the heroes almost all being "special" are mostly negated by the fact that much of what the heroes are fighting for is the idea that Muggles have worth too. It's true that almost all the important actions are carried out by "special" characters, but the people who aren't wizards (e.g. Arabella Figg, the Squib who keeps tabs on Harry while he's living with the Dursleys) or are somehow inferior as wizards (e.g. Hagrid with his lack of full training, Neville with his limited magical aptitude) are diverse and make their own valuable contributions to the world. In a world where some people have superpowers, a lot of the actions that drive society are going to be done by people with superpowers. It's reasonable to tell the superpowered people's stories when portraying such a world, and I think Harry Potter does it without denigrating the worth of other people.

[Rowen]

@MercuryBlue,

I don't think that scene would play out that way. It's been established in the HP books that spells can neutralize the effects of things like fire. However, firearms aren't mentioned, but by book 6, you find that simply killing Voldemort's body that way wouldn't kill him (and one of the rather interesting things about book 7 is how much they can't rely on magic, as it would be too visible/easy to trace and thus have to rely on their other skills).

Now, that being said, yes, Chosen One fantasies and magic worlds were technology is lying around being ignored do irritate me.

[Rowen]

@Froborr

That's one of the things that I really like about Avatar.

I think, though, the thing with Sokka and Suki and Batman and me is that when it's a normal human training all the time and having these great opportunities (Batman wouldn't be where he is if he wasn't rich), I sit there and think, "What did I miss out on doing nothing but gymnastics from the moment I popped out of the womb?" or worse, "I've never be worth anything since I don't super excel at something."

On the other hand, when I see someone like Katara or Aang, I think, "Wow, it would be cool to be gifted like that" while recognizing that their specialness is innate, rather then something I could attain, but am too "lazy" to do. I kinda feel like this is what stuff that says "Everyone is special," even if it falls flat on it's face. It's a way to try and NOT spend all your time comparing yourself to someone else who's had a whole different set of qualities and experiences then you and to recognize what you can do, as opposed to what you feel you can't do.

[Rachel]

@depizan:

The second is that Dash (the brat) is allowed to race against normal people at the end. That's not a race! It's a forgone conclusion! Have sports meets for super people, sure, but having super people compete against non-super people is not a competition.

IIRC, though, Dash didn't win his races, although he obviously easily could have--the ending shows him going for a believable-looking second place. Still a little problematic, of course, and there's no explanation as to why he doesn't go for a sport or activity in which superior speed isn't quite as much of a defining factor, but the reasoning in the movie is that this is the solution his family has come up with to give him some kind of outlet (whereas before, he just wasn't allowed to do anything, period).

[Rowen]

@Rachel

I think I just had a breakthrough. Of what's been talked about with that movie, I feel like that's the thing that bugs me, that Dash only does what he excels at. When he couldn't run around, his mom didn't encourage him to put that energy elsewhere, it was just "sit on your hands and be quiet."

OH, and as for normal people in books, Percy has two. His mom does play a role in the books, even if she does kinda get "the princess is in another castle" and Rachel Elizabeth Whatever does play a role.

As for other literature, I think that's why I liked the Time Quartet and the Dark is Rising. The Murrays and the Drews do a lot and are highly involved, even if they are "normal" people in an fantastical setting.

[Amaryllis]

This is a drive-by, just to say:

Happy Birthday, Jon Maki and Semperfiona!

and condolences to Mmy and family; my thoughts are with you.

[MercuryBlue]

Rowen: *shrugs* It's an old fic. Book 6 canon was not a relevant factor at the time of the fic's writing.

[MercuryBlue]

Wait, it's Semperfiona's birthday too? Happy birthday!

[Albanaeon]

Happy Birthday to Jon and Semperfiona here as well. And best wishes for mmy.

For me, I'd have to say that I am not as bothered with "special" people being called on to save the world. I mean, if we are dealing with the Dark God Voojoo and his horde of zombie pirate-ninjas, the heroes need some sort of edge to compete for me to find it plausible. Obviously it can be taken to extremes, where the hero(es) are the only one to get the upgrades that it gets a little silly. I guess it becomes sort of a balancing act. I like exceptional heroes, but only exceptional in a few things, and they still need to be relatible to the world and the people around them.

[kisekileia]

Speaking as someone who had both exceptional abilities (in academics) and exceptional difficulties (in social skills, attention, and physical skills--as well as having ADHD and Asperger's that were not formally diagnosed or treated until adulthood, I have seriously impaired physical coordination) as a child, it is a lot of fun to do what you excel at. I think I clung particularly hard to my ability to excel at school because I had so much difficulty in other areas, and because I received little to no help with those difficulties or even affirmation of the reality that the difficulties existed. Not having seen The Incredibles, I'm not sure whether this applies to Dash, but I know my intellectual arrogance as a child was partly an effort to maintain self-esteem in the face of other difficulties that received little help, understanding, and sometimes even acknowledgement from the people around me. I do, however--and did even as a child--enjoy music, which I'm reasonably good at but far from outstanding, so it's not like I only do/did things I excel(led) at.

[Froborr, who has too many things to do and is sick and keeps looking over his shoulder...]

Honestly? I think any well-trained modern military could handle an army of zombie pirate-ninjas. I mean, what threat does a zombie pirate-ninja pose to a tank? Or a bomber? Or a cruise missile?

[Raj]

HAPPY bIRTHDAY, Semperfiona and Jon Maki!

[Raj]

{{{{{Mmy}}}}}

[Albanaeon]

Umm... Honestly I was going in a fantasy, peasants armed with sticks sorta world, Froborr, but just to suit you, I'll go ahead and make them cyborgs as well.

[Lonespark]

Airborne cyborgs, I do hope.

I keep thinking this needs a lolcat poster:

"We're in yr apokalipz, defyin' yer awgrrreee?"

[Jamoche]

I sit there and think, "What did I miss out on doing nothing but gymnastics from the moment I popped out of the womb?" or worse, "I've never be worth anything since I don't super excel at something."

Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash:

Until a man is twenty-five, he still thinks, every so often, that under the right circumstances he could be the baddest motherfucker in the world. If I moved to a martial-arts monastery in China and studied real hard for ten years. If my family was wiped out by Colombian drug dealers and I swore myself to revenge. If I got a fatal disease, had one year to live, and devoted it to wiping out street crime. If I just dropped out and devoted my life to being bad.
Hiro used to feel this way, too, but then he ran into Raven. In a way, this was liberating. He no longer has to worry about being the baddest motherfucker in the world. The position is taken.

IIRC, though, Dash didn't win his races, although he obviously easily could have--the ending shows him going for a believable-looking second place.

Also consider the first place kid - he won that race with Dash right at his heels. Back when I did competitive stuff, I liked training with someone better than me because I'd push myself more than I would against an easy opponent and sometimes even surprise myself with how well I'd done. From the look on First Place Kid's face, he felt the same way.

[Semperfiona]

Awww! Thank you all for the wishes!