This week in The Slacktiverse, April 10 2011

This week's Blogaround:

Ana Mardoll continues her analysis/deconstruction of the Twilight series with a new post this week:

Twilight: Bad Books make Good Movies
As Bella struggles to describe her new classmates and their conversations, the reader is left with the problem of deciding whether Bella’s words and descriptions are meant to be taken definitively or connotatively – and whether or not Bella understands the difference. Come help us determine the exact meaning of “overly helpful” and whether or not the very concept is an oxymoron!

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Sarah posted posted the second part of her "what I think about when I think about faith," which deals with her college years and her transition from evangelical to Catholic.
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Sharon Autenrieth put up a post at her blog called "The Rat That Roared: Terry Jones". Sharon discusses the power the internet gives to otherwise insignificant people to amplify their voices and influence, comparing Terry Jones specifically to Yertle the Turtle.
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The poster who now blogs as "the former conservative" published a number of posts this past week: a recommendation of a blog and podcast (someone actually doing something good); three deconstructions of blogs written by fundamentalism women (totally missing the point, more hatefulness, because a woman is basically a walking baby machine); and continued his deconstruction of The Savage Nation.
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This week, Literata participated in a lobbying effort to protect women's access to affordable health care, including the right to reproductive choices that include abortion. In addition to her overview, she wrote about the spiritual aspects of her efforts and the strength that can be found in weakness, the practical details of what lobbying was like, and some lessons she learned about being interviewed.
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This week Kit Whitfield published a new post, Unbearable art, a defence of The Devils. This 1971 Ken Russell film about blasphemy and power is still a subject of controversy and has yet to be officially issued as a DVD. __________

This week at Heathen Critique, Ruby continued the dissection of Soon. In Chapter 9: St. Stephen, Paul finds a Christian martyr.

This week's In case you missed this

Timothy (TRiG) writes: In Mississippi, Only 40% of Republicans Approve of Interracial Marriage. However some people do change their minds. Louis Marinelli, bus-driver for NOM, now approves of same-sex civil marriage (unintended side effects, I now support equality, nom damage control)

 

This week's Things you can do

Commenter Samantha C. writes:

A friend of mine, Randy Pierce, is getting a team together for a walk-a-thon to support the New Hampshire Association for the Blind, an organization that helped him tremendously when he lost his own sight several years ago. I'm walking with them and trying to raise some funds. The main team page is here; anyone can donate to the General Team Donation page. Since Randy's personal foundation is called 20/20 Vision Quest, a lot of people are donating $20.20, or variations thereon. Any donations would be greatly appreciated.

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Sarah writes: The National Religious Campaign Against Torture has a petition out to get the US to ratify the Optional Protocol to the Convention Against Torture (OPCAT). Info is here.
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Alien Booknose writes: USUncut.org are planning nationwide actions for tax day to protest cuts in government programs while major corporations evade taxes.
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Kit Whitfield writes: Avaaz.org has posted the following statement: Wikileaks whistleblower Bradley Manning is being subjected to brutal torture in a US military prison, part of a broader effort to silence and intimidate those behind any further leaks. The government is split on Manning's abuse. President Obama cares about the US global reputation -- a massive global outcry can push him to stop the torture: sign the petition here.
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Timothy (TRiG) urges fellow denizens of The Slacktiverse to sign this petition:
It would appear that the position of the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement is that the appropriate penalty for overstaying a visa is a death sentence. I disagree. More detailed information about Joseph Sekajugo Bukombe, a gay man facing deportation from the United States to Uganda, can be found at the Box Turtle Bulletin.

 

 

 

__________________________________________________________________________________

The Board Administration Team
(hapax, Kit Whitfield and mmy)



Comments

[P J Evans]

We seem to be having an invasion of comment spam (or something resembling it).

[The Board Administration Team]

A large number of spam comments resurrecting old threads have been deleted by TBAT.

Thanks for the heads-up, P J Evans.

[Albanaeon]

So in a funny, but in a better than crying way, the Florida ACLU is running an "Incorporate My Uterus" campaign on the theory that the only way to protect the rights of people with female reproductive organs is to make them a business. Given that the current crop of Republican representatives definitely value Mammon over Jesus, it just might work.

http://www.incorporatemyuterus.com/

Hey everyone. Coming back after a couple weeks of medical fun. After having most of my torso readjusted into its proper place and beginning treatment for hypothyroidism, I am feeling much better. Almost weirdly so. I got used to being in pain and down that being normal feels abnormal.

[P J Evans]

Y'all are welcome. Don't know what they were trying to do - there seemed to be no payload to them

[Karen, who needs to write a new blog post]

Albanaeon, glad to hear you're getting better. Pain is no fun.

I'd like to beg the indulgence of Slactiverse to complain about my older son, who had started to actually do all his homework and make good grades, only to fall away again this semester. His science teacher actually gave him an extra weekend on the final exam project. GAG! I'm genuinely afraid that he's ruined his life before he turns 13 by this kind of irresponsible behavior. Seriously, I have never missed a deadline or assignment in my life. The product may not have been great, but it was always completed on schedule. How does a person get like this?

[Albanaeon]

Thanks Karen. Pain is no fun.

I wouldn't worry too much about your 13 year old just yet, because I personally did much the same thing when I was his age. The major contributors were stress as we were moving at the time, boredom from classes I was too smart for, and, well, becoming a teenager and suddenly knowing everything, being hated and misunderstood by everyone, and the only thing often on my mind was sex. Things leveled out pretty quickly a few years later. Give it some time, but keep your eye on things too. He may need to work some things out and appreciate some help now and then, but nothing too heavy-handed since it is his life he's trying to figure out. At least that is what worked for me. YMMV. I'd say not to worry, but it's rather impossible, as a caring parent, not to, but really, High School is really wear you need to focus on the grades and assignments and such to get into college. But even then, there are a variety of routes to get there, even if grades are not perfect. My mother dropped out of high school, had me, went to community college, became a nurse, later went back to get a bachelors on a VA scholarship, and became one of the top rated nurses in the state.

[Karen, who needs to write a new blog post]

Thanks, that's encouraging.

Trigger Warning: verbal child abuse

My husband is zero help on this point, because he gets so very angry at Andy. No hitting, but a whole lot of screaming, and I don't think screaming helps much. So, I don't tell Steve about Andy's bad grades, but I don't have any support with Andy. At least Andy's teachers like him, while at the same time thinking he's disorganized.

Edited (at Karen's request) to add trigger warning.

[Samantha C]

Karen, is it at all possible that Andy has an attention disorder? I don't have it myself but a friend of mine with ADD has vented to me so many times about the way he just can't manage to get things together, on deadlines or not, without his medication. I don't want to leap toward a medical solution obviously, but if he's otherwise a likeable student and if he isn't blowing things off on purpose, it might be worth looking into.

I also don't understand what's so "gag" about a teacher offering an extra weekend. It sounds like Andy's actually being fairly responsible, if he was able to go to the teacher, explain his situation and be given the extra time to complete the project. That sounds like a kid who's well on his way to doing well in high school and college, not someone who's ruining his life.

[kisekileia]

Karen, my first thought upon reading that was ADHD. ADHD can make it pretty much impossible to manage time, and the fact that Andy went to the teacher on his own initiative to ask for extra time suggests that he might not be being irresponsible deliberately. An ADHD kid cannot necessarily explain that they are making an effort, because being consistently told you're not making an effort when you are results in not being able to tell whether you're making an effort or not. An ADHD kid may also pretend to be slow or disinterested because being apparently unwilling to do things is less embarrassing than being unable to do them. If your son can't hand anything in on time, is dreamy and spacey, and has major issues with responsibility and attention in other areas of his life, please consider having him assessed for ADHD.

[kisekileia]

@Albaeonon: My sympathies. Hypothyroidism can really mess with your quality of life--I've had it at least since I was fifteen, and before treatment I would wear a cardigan, fleece jacket, and winter hat in my parents' 73-degree house. Remember to keep getting the blood tests done every couple of months until your TSH is under 2 or 3. There's some evidence that a TSH level in the 3-5 range is not actually normal, despite some labs counting it as normal, and I have found a significant difference in quality of life (especially cold tolerance) between a TSH of 4 or 5 and a TSH of under 2. Once your medication dose is at a level that gives you a stable TSH under 2, you can drop the frequency of blood tests to once a year or so. If your symptoms aren't completely gone at a TSH under 2, and you have good prescription drug insurance, you may want to consider a T3 supplement (i.e. Cytomel) along with your T4 supplement (Synthroid/Eltroxin/levothyroxine). You should be able to get to the point where you feel fine.

[kisekileia]

@Karen: Okay, I just saw your second comment. If your husband is dealing with the situation by screaming at your son, you NEED to get your son assessed for ADHD. If Andy does in fact have ADHD and his disorganized behaviour is therefore not voluntary, your husband is being emotionally abusive by screaming at Andy for behaviour that is outside Andy's control. People with ADHD frequently develop depression and anxiety for exactly that reason--we're blamed, berated, and punished for behaviour we can't stop. It is extremely emotionally destructive and the situation needs to be addressed, both with assessment and, if necessary, treatment for Andy and with family therapy with an ADHD-experienced therapist if Andy is diagnosed.

[Amaryllis]

@Albanaeon: Sympathies, and welcome back.

@Karen: more sympathies, and I wish I had some practical advice to offer. But if I knew what to do, I'd have done it then.

I can tell you that screaming absolutely doesn't help. I can also tell you that keeping things from your husband/Andy's father is going to put you into an impossibly stressful position, and it won't do any of you any good in the long run.

Maybe a re-evaluation for ADHD -- I think you've said he's been evaluated previously? -- and some family counseling will help. And I'd say to try it now, while Andy is still young enough to cooperate and his relationship with his father hasn't been irreparably damaged.

[Ruby]

Hey Karen--

I am not a doctor or a psychologist or anything, but I want to suggest a non-medical possibility--could Andy just be rebelling/acting out? Or is it possible that he's been "giving up" because he feels too much pressure or is overextended? It's very, very easy to be overworked and overtired at that age, and to feel that every little thing you do will have lifelong consequences. If your husband is screaming and you're feeling that he's ruining his whole life, maybe he's internalizing feelings that the situation is hopeless and he's a failure at age 13.

[Amaryllis]

Yes, whether or not Andy fits the criteria for ADHD, any family counseling needs to be focused on how to help him manage himself as he is, and how to strengthen the relationships between the three of you. It's not about "fixing" him as if he were a broken appliance. Because that never works either.

I'll be thinking of you.

[hapax]

{{{Karen & Andy}}}

I think I've mentioned before that we have been having very similar issues with our fifteen year old son.

He has been evaluated for depression and ADHD, with a diagnosis of neither -- although one therapist told me frankly that the "normal" adolescent brain would be considered borderline pathological by the standards of an average child or adult, so who can say?

As it is, we have been stressing some of the non-pharmacological management techniques that can be effective with both, to some result: insisting on daily sunshine, regular physical activity, and routine, discipline, and checking up to make sure he stays "on track".

These have been ... well, it's better. It's certainly more positive and less fraught than yelling and punishment and long "talk-talk-talks".

And I'll be honest, a lot of the improvement has been all of us -- both son AND parents -- taking a good hard look at ourselves, and learning to see him for who he is, good and not-so-good, instead of who we think he *ought* to be.

I'll be thinking of all of you.

[Timothy (TRiG)]

I'm still less than impressed by Louis Marinelli's current position on gay rights, but he has at least accepted that there's a difference between civil marriage and religious marriage. He still hasn't properly apologised for his rhetoric, which was actually more vicious (before he joined NOM) than most of that coming from NOM at the time.

TRiG.

[Karen, who needs to write a new blog post]

Thanks guys. Steve won't go through with a formal ADHD evaluation. Andy was tested in 4th grade as "borderline," but not bad enough to require medication. He was tested for depression but cleared from that one.

hapax -- doesn't surprise me that adolescent brains don't work like either kid or adult brains. I'll be sending good thoughts your direction as well.

Thanks, guys. Just knowing typing about it has made things better.

[Amaryllis]

@Karen: do you mean that Steve won't go through with an evaluation for himself, or with family therapy, or that he won't go along with it for Andy? Because, and I'm speaking from experience here on things I wish I'd done, you may have to disregard his wishes and have it done anyway.

Ignoring potential problems only makes things worse.

Excuse me if this isn't tactful, but I've got something I have to do Right Now, and I don't have time to consider.

[kisekileia]

If your husband is refusing to have your son evaluated for ADHD, he is refusing to provide necessary medical care. That is neglect and abuse. If that's what's going on, you need to get the evaluation done anyway, and seriously consider how you can best fulfill your moral obligation to protect your son from your husband's abusiveness.

(Yes, I'm nuking and probably being insensitive. I know. I just feel really strongly, bordering on triggered, about this, because I know exactly what it's like to be a kid whose parents won't acknowledge that her behaviours are caused by ADHD rather than deliberate laziness. And I think it's important to shake awake parents of teens with psych issues so that they get their kids the help they need.)

[Caravelle]

Karen :

I'd like to beg the indulgence of Slactiverse to complain about my older son, who had started to actually do all his homework and make good grades, only to fall away again this semester. His science teacher actually gave him an extra weekend on the final exam project. GAG! I'm genuinely afraid that he's ruined his life before he turns 13 by this kind of irresponsible behavior. Seriously, I have never missed a deadline or assignment in my life. The product may not have been great, but it was always completed on schedule. How does a person get like this?

I don't know anything about the ADHD everyone else is bringing up, and maybe this is socialist hellhole privilege speaking, but you've never missed a deadline or assignment in your life ? Good for you. I've missed plenty. And I did well at school despite it, and went to an excellent university, where I did less well but well enough, and after working in IT and teaching in Japan for a few years I'm now doing a PhD. I have issues but my life is very much non-ruined.

Two of my brothers aren't as lucky as me with academics and have had patterns of passing each grade by the skin of their teeth. The older one repeated a year in high school, then got into a good engineering school, where he repeated a semester, and he's now finishing it and thinking of what he'll do next, which includes quite a lot of good choices, including further degrees or good jobs. He is also a very well-balanced and bright individual. Very much un-ruined life too. (the younger brother is 14, so a bit soon to tell with him :) )

If you start worrying about your kid ruining his life because of bad grades a few missed assignments at 13*, how do you expect him to cope?

Relax. And tell your husband to relax, because to echo everyone else : screaming = not helping. Sure, it would be better if your son got better grades, and missed fewer deadlines and steps can and should be taken in that direction. But it's not the end of the world.

*!!!!

[Bobbe]

Can we get a trigger warning on Karen's original post for the verbal child abuse? I'm glad she can talk about it, and I respect her right to do so, but some of us need a warning before hitting that kind of thing.

I'm a lurker, hoping to join the community more. Thanks to TBAT for all their hard work in providing this space.

[hapax]

@Caravelle --

I certainly can't speak for Karen and her son, but there's a hella difference between "a few missed assignments" and sitting there watching and signing your son's math homework every night, and still seeing a string of F's on his report card because he somehow can't get them from his backpack to his teacher's desk.

There is a hella difference between "bad grades" and getting a call from school because your son's locker is literally bursting from the papers he never turned in, not to mention the food from all the lunches he somehow "forgot" to eat.

There is hella difference "a missed deadline" and a kid who is literally shaking so hard that he throws up at the thought of a long-term assignment.

These are the signs that Something Is Wrong Here, Yo. No, it isn't "a ruined life", not yet; but there if there is a simple biochemical problem going on, that we *could* fix but simply shrug our shoulders and say, "Hey, kids are like that", it very well *could* be.

[Deird, who still turned out fine]

there's a hella difference between "a few missed assignments" and sitting there watching and signing your son's math homework every night, and still seeing a string of F's on his report card because he somehow can't get them from his backpack to his teacher's desk.

There is a hella difference between "bad grades" and getting a call from school because your son's locker is literally bursting from the papers he never turned in, not to mention the food from all the lunches he somehow "forgot" to eat.

Ohhh... flashbacks to high school...

(I really wish I'd figured out I had ADHD before I hit uni.)

[Caravelle]

@hapax : I'm sorry, I completely missed those things. Where did Karen mention them ? I was reacting to "who had started to actually do all his homework and make good grades, only to fall away again this semester. His science teacher actually gave him an extra weekend on the final exam project." which on its own does not a ruined life before 13 make. Moreover, the fact that Karen says she's never missed a deadline or assignment in her life and that he's her oldest son makes me think she might have unreasonably high expectations. Which I think is perfectly understandable, I know my mother is continually baffled at the ways I'm different from her.

But if I'm missing facts it's obviously another story.

[kisekileia]

@hapax, if that's a description of your son's situation, and he's tested negative for depression and ADHD, the shaking at the thought of a long-term assignments sounds to me like there are some pretty severe anxiety issues going on that should probably be treated. Antidepressants are also the first-line meds to treat anxiety, so one may be worth a shot. There's also a drug called Vistaril (hydroxyzine) that is technically an antihistamine but treats anxiety as well, which is better established as appropriate for people under 18 than most psych meds are. Cognitive-behavioural therapy can also help anxiety a good deal. I hope you can get some effective help for your son, although it sounds like parenting-wise you are already doing well.

[Karen, who needs to write a new blog post]

Sorry, Bobbe. I'll be more careful in future discussions, including now. Trigger warning for those with verbal abuse issues.

Steve and the boys have a really good relationship, but for Andy's grades. Both adults were really good students in middle and high school. Steve was a slacker in college, but got into law school and made up for it there. I made my first B in high school and my first C in law school and am still ashamed of it. So, I'm not the best person to have a kid who skates by with B's and C's, and only then because he can ace the finals. I'm not all that organized, although I come from a family of several generations of people who can find their tax returns from 25 years ago, with supporting documents and who win arguments with the bank based on documentation. Steve's mother was neat to the point of obsessiveness -- I found all her handkerchiefs on a hanger in her closet, ironed, and she sent the khakis she wore to do yard work to be pressed -- and he's less severe than she was, but clearly there's a long way between knife-creased schmattes and forgetting vital deadlines. We're both litigation attorneys, so deadlines are really serious business. Consequently, neither of us has much capacity to understand how a person doesn't think of the timing of things.

I've read a lot about ADHD, and I am going to have Andy tested again. It seems like the principal symptom is a lack of awareness of time, and an inability to figure out how long any particular activity would take. I will avoid medication as long as possible, mainly because the side effects terrify me, but I'll certainly have the tests done. FWIW, every adult who has any contact with him thinks Andy is extremely polite and helpful, and his teachers recognize that he's bright and motivated, just scatterbrained.

I completed the questionaire for parents, and the questions horrified me. Things like "My child sets fires -- Often, Sometimes, Never" and "My family has had to get rid of a pet because my child abused the animal." I know there are kids like this, but really, the questions are terrifying.

[Lunch Meat]

When I was in high school, I basically stopped doing any assignments I didn't feel like doing, for several reasons--I knew I could pass (barely) with good test grades, I just didn't care about most of the assignments, and I was going through so much emotionally that school and homework were the least important things I could think of. Even without medical problems, the emotional life of a teenager is so confused that even two years older me couldn't really understand it. I felt like I was completely unattractive, like I was ruining all my friendships, I was confused spiritually, and the struggle between who everyone, including me, expected me to be, and the imperfect me I felt that I was, was really paralyzing.

I guess what I'm saying is it's important not to expect too much from teenagers. Feeling like you're failing just a little bit can make you want to give up completely, and no amount of parents' nagging, yelling, cajoling or adultsplaining can bring you out of that. Sometimes it just has to happen naturally. For me, I was an A student until high school, and my senior year especially my grades plummeted. What really helped me was taking a year off to work before going to college. That way I learned a new work ethic. I think if I'd gone straight to college I would have done a loy worse.

[Albanaeon]

@kisekeleia (hope that's right...)

My TSH came back as 3.1, so technically borderline, but give I was highly symptomatic, the doctor went ahead and proscribed levothyroxin in a low dose and so far it helping quite a bit. Mood is starting to stabilize finally, and my energy levels are quite a bit higher. I've even started losing weight for the first time in years. However, it definitely not "perfect" yet, particularly in the few hours between doses, so more tests soon.

Speaking of which, I have to say that I really appreciate having civilian doctors and good insurance. I actually talked to the doctor, not just filled out a form. He didn't question if I was just making everything up and he listened to me. He started working on the problem immediately instead of giving me a bottle of Vitamin M (motrin for the civies) and telling me to call back in two weeks, which inevitably turned into five as you couldn't get an appointment in less than three weeks no matter what. They called me back with test results instead of letting them float in la-la land for weeks. And all this (four appointments and three prescriptions) cost less than $100.

Which brings me to my next point. How many people out there are just like me. More or less debilitated by something that is relatively easy to treat and really shouldn't cost all that much. In the last few days, I've gotten several house projects done that I was anticipating taking months, and still playing more with my son than I have been. How many people deemed "lazy" by conservatives and don't deserve to get health care are that way due to something beyond their control. I disagreed heavily with their position before, but now I truly understand how terrible their position is, because of how it creates and perpetuates their own prejudices in the first place, and then goes ahead and blames the victims for their own creation. Sigh.

[The Board Administration Team]

@Karen: do we have permission to add "Trigger Warning: verbal child abuse" to your original post?

@Bobbe: Thank you. We are still building the community here and therefore it is helpful to get feedback from people about things that need trigger warnings.

[Deird, who gives too much info]

Karen, as someone who got through high school with ADHD, here's what I wish would have happened:

- having a teacher recognise when I was getting restless and send me to the office to deliver a note (even a fake note) so that I could walk around for the few minutes there and back

- someone sitting down with me to go through how to write assignments - specifically, what the teacher wants to know, and what the end result should look like

- having someone point out that all those "Here's How To Study" tips (neat desk, quiet room, bright lights, etc) just didn't work for me, and that I should try something that did work regardless of how counter-intuitive it sounded (lying on the floor, loud rock music, natural lighting, etc)

- assignments being given to me with "Here Is The Point Of The Assignment" summarised somewhere in big bold letters - because I often didn't hear what the teacher was saying, and would take the start of the assignment and work really hard but veer off in the wrong direction, so I'd end up with a perfect assignment that wasn't what we were supposed to be doing at all

- instead of scheduling "study time" when I had to be studying, scheduling "break time" when I wasn't allowed to be studying under any circumstances (believe it or not, this actually works REALLY WELL for me - I'm now exercising the same way, by scheduling days when I am UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES to use my WiiFit, and it's making me want to use it whenever I'm allowed)

- being allowed to use an iPod during class (I use one all day at work) so that my brain had something extra to focus on instead of letting my mind wander away from class

- having scrap paper nearby so that if a random thought occurred to me in the middle of class, I could write it down on that instead of either writing it in my class notes or having it run around my head for the next three hours

Maybe some of those ideas might help.

Also, if you want to hear more about how ADHD brains work, I've written some stuff about it.

[P J Evans]

assignments being given to me with "Here Is The Point Of The Assignment" summarised somewhere in big bold letters

I suspect I'm not the only person who could have used something like that, even without ADHD. (Sometimes, it really is the teacher's fault.)
Adding my opinion that even an 'F' in junior high isn't the end of the world, and one won't hurt your future. (Been there, done that, have the report cards to prove it. And it was in my favorite class, too.)

[Karen, who needs to write a new blog post]

TBAT -- you have my absolute and complete permission to add any trigger warning necessary. I don't wish anyone to be harmed by my comments.

And to all, thanks for the discussion. It helps immensely to type about it in an objective forum.

hapax, I'm sending good thoughts to your family, especially your son. I know you are doing everything possible for him.

[Karen, who needs to write a new blog post]

Oh, and I have to point out that Andy didn't ask for the extra time; the teacher simply gave him an additional couple of days so that he doesn't fail the class.

[Ruby]

Caravelle: @hapax : I'm sorry, I completely missed those things. Where did Karen mention them ? I was reacting to "who had started to actually do all his homework and make good grades, only to fall away again this semester. His science teacher actually gave him an extra weekend on the final exam project." which on its own does not a ruined life before 13 make. Moreover, the fact that Karen says she's never missed a deadline or assignment in her life and that he's her oldest son makes me think she might have unreasonably high expectations. Which I think is perfectly understandable, I know my mother is continually baffled at the ways I'm different from her.

But if I'm missing facts it's obviously another story.

Yes, this exactly. If there's more to the story, then I apologize, but I did just want to volunteer that a semester's worth of "slacking" might not be a chemical problem, but could be caused by any number of temporary and/or environmental issues such as overwork, too many activities, too high expectations (from the child himself and/or from others), being overtired, etc.) Especially when Karen said...

We're both litigation attorneys, so deadlines are really serious business. Consequently, neither of us has much capacity to understand how a person doesn't think of the timing of things.

...that made me think of my brother, who completely baffled my father for years because of completely different personality styles and attitudes towards work/school/deadlines.* (Let me put it this way, for those familiar with the MBTI: ISFJ father, meet your ENTP son.)

*My brother, despite these differences in style, went to a great college where he got good grades and pioneered some brand-new projects, and now works in an industry dependent on timing issues. Which is all to say: age 13 is not usually the defining year of a person's life.

[Deird, who is irritated]

*raises hand*

Can I just point out that ADHD is not a "chemical problem", and I'm rather dubious about it being labelled a "medical problem" too?

I am not sick, and I do not need to be cured.

[Lunch Meat]

Sorry, Deird.

[Ruby]

Sorry, too, Deird.

[Karen, who needs to write a new blog post]

Let me add an apology, too Deird. I wish there were some better language, and for that matter better treatment, for mental states like ADHD and Asperger's, which, while they can be seriously annoying and do require some accommodations, aren't nearly as damaging as schizophrenia or bipolar or serious OCD.* (Andy's being tested for Asperger's. One wag in my office suggested that if he's positive as an Aspie, I should send the diagnosis directly to Cal Tech. No, I didn't find it particularly funny either.)

*I'm not having much luck expressing myself here. There are mental conditions that differ from the typical but which don't seriously impair those who have them in day to day life, especially if the patient gets treatment. Schizophrenics, on the other hand, can't live independently without very harsh medications and someone to monitor that they take the meds. Also, because the treatment is soooo very nasty, only those with truly debilitating conditions will get treatment; milder, less impairing cases don't get anything but still have symptoms that cause problems. My not-a-doctor opinion is that a lot of drug and alcohol abuse stems from attempts to self-medicate. That, however, is an entirely different story.

[MadGastronomer]

Let me add an apology, too Deird. I wish there were some better language, and for that matter better treatment, for mental states like ADHD and Asperger's, which, while they can be seriously annoying and do require some accommodations, aren't nearly as damaging as schizophrenia or bipolar or serious OCD.

And yet, while I can't speak for other conditions, there are people with bipolar who insist that they aren't ill or broken and don't need fixing, they just have some differences which need accommodating.

I am not one of these people, but I have met them.

[Dash]

Karen and hapax, very best wishes. Karen, your description took me right back: we've got someone in our family who sounds exactly like Andy, especially the age-13 experience. He's got ADD, and once the right medication was (eventually) found, did fine, although he still has to watch his patterns of distraction. But his high school and college were both skin-of-teeth affairs. Interestingly, to support Deird's point, he discovered his dissertation topic because of his ADD--someone without ADD would probably not have redone a something-or-other. (His being a field I pretty much don't understand, except that he was doing a lot of experiments and there was a something-or-other that yielded interesting results--but not obviously upfront. Or something.)

As others have said, 13 years old is not a predictor of success in life.

And, Deird, those links are great! I'm passing them along to another relative with ADHD.

[Timothy (TRiG)]

More things to do: Sign a petition: It would appear that the position of the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement is that the appropriate penalty for overstaying a visa is a death sentence. I disagree.

Box Turtle Bulletin

TRiG.

[Kit Whitfield]

And yet, while I can't speak for other conditions, there are people with bipolar who insist that they aren't ill or broken and don't need fixing, they just have some differences which need accommodating.

I am not one of these people, but I have met them.

What kind of accommodation are they thinking of? Because while I'm completely on-side with accommodating the harmless behaviours and adapting to certain things (you'd think, for example, that a bank account that could track spending patterns and issue some kind of alert if someone seemed to be going into a manic spending spree might be very useful), both manic and depressed states can result in antisocial stuff like getting into fights or destructive rages, and I don't think people should have to accommodate those...

[The Board Administration Team]

@Timothy: Done

[kisekileia]

I am completely OK with labelling ADHD a chemical/medical problem, and I would take a cure in a heartbeat. I think this is something that varies from person to person, depending particularly on how disabling the disorder is for the specific person.

Karen, your scrupulosity about deadlines and grades is not normal. It's how a small subset of people who happen to have brains that are very conductive to meeting deadlines operate, but it's not normal. The value judgment that needing a weekend extension for an assignment is GAG-worthy is equally abnormal. Imposing those expectations on a kid with ADHD--or Asperger's, since executive functioning (the brain's ability to plan and organize) is impaired in Asperger's as well, and even more impaired in the 70% of people with Asperger's who also have ADHD--is a surefire way to make the kid depressed, anxious, and even less functional than he otherwise would be. If Andy has AS and/or ADHD, the expectations that normal parents would impose on normal kids would be inappropriate, but the expectations you and Steve are imposing would be even more inappropriate. This is especially true since many people with those disorders really struggle in university and the job market. It is rare for someone with AS and ADHD to be the sort of super-high-achiever that you and Steve are, even if they are highly intelligent. If Andy has AS and ADHD, he will likely not have the sort of future that you are imagining for him, and you need to help him have the best life he can rather than expecting him to be like his parents.

People with Asperger's are also very sensitive to abuse, so if Andy has AS, that further increases the likelihood that Steve's behaviour is doing him severe emotional harm. Please seek out family therapy--if Andy is diagnosed with AS and/or ADHD, the therapist should be someone who is familiar with both--and insist that Steve go. It is essential for Andy's well-being that Steve's screaming be stopped. The therapist should also help all of you recalibrate your expectations for Andy so that they are reasonable for a teen with significant disabilities, which do, in fact, seriously impair people in day-to-day life.

To give you an idea of what that impairment is like: Before I went on medication that helps a little, I struggled to get to jobs on time. I cared greatly about being punctual, because I was raised by very responsible parents with overly high expectations for me, but that didn't make me any more able to do it. A really, really intense effort would usually--not always, but usually--get me to work within ten minutes of my start time. At my last job, I would go so far as to pay for a taxi from the subway station to my workplace instead of walking if I was running late, even though I would sacrifice my first hour's wage to do so--because I cared that much about being on time, but I just couldn't do it. Even with meds, I routinely screw up my scheduling for the day so that I have to miss social events I was planning on attending, or am hours late to those events. That is what life is like for someone with severe ADHD.

Also, Karen--PLEASE try the medication if Andy is diagnosed with ADHD. I have tried every ADHD medication on the market in Canada, and have for years been part of an adult ADHD support community online where many people have been on many ADHD medications. The side effects of ADHD meds are not horrific, and for most people with ADHD, meds are far more effective than any other treatment. It is inhumane to deny someone with ADHD the chance to try medication, since that is their best shot at relieving many of their symptoms. It won't make the person completely non-ADHD, but it will probably help quite a bit.

[kisekileia]

OMG. That should have been "a weekend extension is GAG-worthy". I am SO sorry for that typo. TBAT, could you please fix it?

[The Board Administration Team]

@kisekileia: Done.

[kisekileia]

Thank you.

[hapax]

@hapax : I'm sorry, I completely missed those things. Where did Karen mention them ?

Karen didn't. I was talking about *my* son, whose father also originally dismissed my concerns in exactly the same terms of "a few missed deadlines." (There were also some comments flying about the house on the order of "he's just lazy" and "he'll grow out of it.")

I was trying to make clear that situations that can sound at first glance to outsiders as relatively trivial, can actually be indicators of something much worse.

Or they may indeed be truly trivial, or a "phase."

But this is something that's hard for outsiders to know. Or insiders, either -- which is why a good objective evaluation by a trained professional is so critical.

@Deird -- I'm sorry if I sounded callous when I brought up the phrase "biochemical problem." Of course people vary greatly in brain chemistry, neurology, and plain old personality, and those aren't "problems" -- those are grace.

But it's a sad truth that some of the biochemical conditions that most impair healthy function, and are relatively easy to at least start treating, are also those that are most likely to insist "No, this isn't a problem, this is just how I am."

I should know -- I have one of them. :-(

[Ross]

I've noticed that pretty much across the board, many people have a strong tendency to consider the need to take medication as a kind of personal failure. Different people are different with respect to where they draw the line, but it's usually there. My wife is hardly ever willing to take painkillers (I'm talking tylenol here), and was very conflicted over birth control pills. Several of the diabetics I know feel that having to take pills means they are failures at diet-control, and some of those who need insulin feel that's a failure to keep it controlled with pills. My wife, again, lives in horror that she'll have to take pills for her cholesterol, because that means she is a bad person who can't eat right.

Society as a whole has sort of decided that if you suffer from chronic pain and want to be medicated for it, you should be treated with the suspicion that you're a drug addict

My father-in-law is currently going through a bout of depression due to his diabetes, since, being an alternative medicine kind of guy, he'd placed a big stake of his sense of self in the idea that he could cure any physical ailment by working on his emotional issues and meditation on his crystals, and having spent three weeks in the hospital and losign a toe to diabetes he insists was induced by his "thinking he was too sweet" pretty much destroyed his faith in himself. Unfortunately, he still thinks that he can solve his depression by introspection and refuses medication.

ANd yet, ofc, hardly anyone thinks that if you have to take antibiotics, you're a failure. (Not no one, but it's rare enough that if I said "I'm not going to take medication for my diabetes, and instead rely on the strength of my willpower to control it," most people would say "That's great for you, good luck!" but if I said "I'm not going ot take antibiotics for my infection, and instead rely on the strenght of my willpower to control it," most people would say something ableist about mental illness)

[Ross]

(And by "across the board", I mean "across the breadth of society", not "across this particular forum which might be inaccurately described as a bulletin board")

[sarah]

[[Ross: I've noticed that pretty much across the board, many people have a strong tendency to consider the need to take medication as a kind of personal failure...Society as a whole has sort of decided that if you suffer from chronic pain and want to be medicated for it, you should be treated with the suspicion that you're a drug addict]]

Not just for chronic pain. I've been told, at various times by various people, that my taking meds for (fairly severe) depression makes me addicted or drugged up--which, therefore, makes me either a) unable to access my creativity, b) unable to reason properly, or c) both. Never mind that I was pretty much a wreck without the meds...

[Ross]

@sarah: Societal attitudes about mental health issues are so completely broken in general that you'd expect nothing less. If it's not okay to take drugs for weight loss, it might still be okay to seek therapy for i, but if it's depression, drugs are You Are A Failure, and therapy is You Are A Failure But At Least You Don't Need Drugs. Heck, with mental health, even "I admit to having this mental health issue, but I will take care of it myself without any outside help" is often considered a personal failing

(re weight loss: There is increasing evidence that bariatric surgery would do me a lot of good. It would make me lose weight, and in many cases it also reverses or reduces the symptoms of diabetes independent of weight loss, and yet it's an uphill battle even with *myself* to convince myself that if I had weight loss surgery, this wouldn't mean I was a failure as a human being. ANd that's not even considering the reactions of my peers.)

[Ellen Brand]

Ross- I'm naturally suspicious of bariatric surgery, and what information I can find shows that it has a high failure rate after some time, and the reversal of diabetes isn't permanent. But even if all of that's true, and not just me finding biased sources, it wouldn't make you a failure as a human being any more than being fat does. And it does work for some people, so here's hoping that whatever you choose to do works for you and makes you happy and healthy.

[Caravelle]

@hapax : I'm sorry about your son's situation and that your husband started out dismissing it. I hope things work out for him and your family. I understand why you'd respond the way you did but I still think you overreacted to my post. I can't know Andy's problems, but given Karen's reaction to the ones she chose to highlight and what she said about her own situation I still think my response was reasonable. And given most people responding to her suggested or assumed her son has ADHD I thought adding a different perspective would be a good idea. Given Karen's subsequent clarifications I still do.

[MercuryBlue]

Regarding the DDoS attack on Livejournal.

[MadGastronomer]

Ross: Not only is there a really high failure rate over time (upwards of 80%, IIRC), there's a really high risk associated with all forms of weight loss surgery. People die or have permanent health complications. If you're interested, I'll find you the references.

[Ruby]

sarah: Not just for chronic pain. I've been told, at various times by various people, that my taking meds for (fairly severe) depression makes me addicted or drugged up--which, therefore, makes me either a) unable to access my creativity, b) unable to reason properly, or c) both. Never mind that I was pretty much a wreck without the meds...

I am so hoping that such attitudes are slowly passing into the realm of "old medical myths of bygone days." I've written here in the past about how my grandfather's vision of Being A Man led him to deny that he even felt pain, much less needed medication to control it, despite being in the final stages of cancer. Maybe, like cancer being contagious, this idea will soon become quaint.

[Karen, who needs to write a new blog post]

Catching up a bit: I will certainly get any medication recommended by the doctor for Andy. He did manage to get the project in this morning as required, and he's eeking out a B minus in this class and math, with C minuses in two others, and one B plus. The infuriating thing is that when he turns stuff in on time, he makes A's. Easily. That's what makes me and Steve get so bleeding angry when he waits til the last minute or turns stuff in late. It's very painful to see him make lower grades than kids much less bright than he is because of punctuality issues.

Also, I am very happy to report that he doesn't have any other behavioral problems. (Well, his Dad and brother and he really like fart jokes, which I loathe with a fiery passion.) He's respectful, generally cheerful, polite, and really likes his subject matter.

[Amaryllis]

The infuriating thing is that when he turns stuff in on time, he makes A's. Easily. That's what makes me and Steve get so bleeding angry when he waits til the last minute or turns stuff in late. It's very painful to see him make lower grades than kids much less bright than he is because of punctuality issues.
Oh yeah, I know that one.

That's why-- forgive me for harping on it, but I wish I'd taken my own advice sooner-- a professional outside eye can help the three of you get to the root of the punctuality issues, and help you deal with the mismatch between your academic styles and your son's. Somebody to help you navigate that fine parental line between doing too little and doing too much.

Although sometimes I think you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. To a large extent, the kid is who he is. My daughter and my nephew have turned out to be very similar young adults, in spite of very different parenting styles in their two households, and different kinds of interventions during their school years. Delightful young people, both of them, but neither of them living exactly the lives their parents had envisioned for them back on that first day of kindergarten.

I don't mean to discourage you-- he sounds like a great kid-- just a recommendation not to drive yourself nuts, or let anyone else drive you nuts, trying to "just fix it!"

And I really don't know what that's all about, with boys and the fart jokes.

[chris the cynic]

I obviously can't speak for your son.

In my experience getting As is easy. Getting work done early is impossible. I could no more do an assignment early than I could sprout wings and fly. It cannot be done. It is impossible. Of the two I'd probably rather sprout wings and fly, but I've put more a lot more effort into getting work done before the last minute.

If I try to do something early it simply doesn't happen. Nothing happens. The day goes by. I don't think, I don't work, I don't move unless it's to stand up and move around to try to bleed off some pent up energy before the boredom and emptiness causes me to break down and scream.

There is nothing that I could do to waste two days with absolutely zero productivity more effectively than trying to get an assignment done three days early. If I were to actually try to do nothing I'd probably end up getting more done (it probably wouldn't be on the assignment, but it would at least be something.)

Anyway, as a result, when reading your description of Andy to me it sounds like he's doing the easy stuff easily and having trouble with the hard stuff. If my (non-existent hypothetical) child were doing that I wouldn't find it infuriating. It would bother me, because I would prefer that my (non-existent hypothetical) child get good grades, but it would seem fairly normal. Expected even. Getting As is easy, so he does it easily, doing anything other than waiting to the last minute is hard as (the fourth round of the ninth circle of) Hell, so he ends up waiting till the last minute and sometimes not making it.

I can offer no advice, but I want to add another voice saying to be aware that what is hard for some people is not hard for others, and what is easy for some people is nearly impossible for others. It may be that the reason he gets As easily but gets things in late is that getting As is easy for him and getting things in on time is much, much harder.

-

Verbal child abuse warning. I think. Maybe.*

Other than that, I have never heard of evidence, not even a single anecdotal story, that screaming at a child helps anything at all. I know that it can make things worse.

If you find something that works for him in the near future, please share it. Maybe it will help me (I'm still in college.)

*I'm honestly not sure what makes such a warning necessary and what doesn't. Is the mere mention of screaming at a child enough? Anyway, I figure it's best to err on the side of a warning.

-

Deird, I shall have to try scheduling break time.

[chris the cynic]

Er, I should probably add that the, "I don't think, I don't work, I don't move unless..." thing assumes that I manage to keep myself from getting distracted which is itself a miracle of sorts. Though given the results when it happens maybe something as positive sounding as "miracle" isn't the right word.

[hapax]

I understand why you'd respond the way you did but I still think you overreacted to my post.

Yeah, I think it's another case of "tone gets lost on the Internet."

*I* thought you might have been dismissive how what sounds like a minor problem could be a symptom of something major, and offered up my own family's situation to show what could lie behind "a few missed deadlines."

*You* thought (I think) I was getting angry at your perfectly reasonable suggestion that "Hey, don't immediately jump to the most serious possibility."

Looking back, I wasn't angry, you weren't being dismissive. We were both just trying to expand the conversation.

Pie?

[hapax]

Karen, I'm so glad to hear that Andy is, on the whole, a great kid (and honestly, those grades don't sound that bad to me, although believe me I DO get the immense parental frustration behind "but you could do so much better!")

But yeah, what is up with the fart jokes?

[Karen, who needs to write a new blog post]

I will PAY GOOD MONEY for an explanation of why boys love flatulence jokes so much, especially if the explanation comes with a cure.

[Karen, who needs to write a new blog post]

Also, thanks hapax. This discussion has reminded me that he's 12, and puberty generally sucks. He's neither a performer nor an athlete, which would have made these years easier on him, mainly by making them vastly harder on ME*, but he's also taking an entire Pre AP curriculum, which is harder than standard track. So, B's and C's would be a little higher in regular classes. Finally, he's one of the youngest kids in his class -- May 14 birthday -- so he's a little behind in social development. Specifically, he's buddies with girls still; he doesn't have a girlfriend. So, we're working on things. I will have the ADD tests completed, though.

*By forcing me to spend his entire elementary school years attending various sporting events and practices. Had Andy adored any particular sport I would have done it, but he didn't so I didn't.

[P J Evans]

That's what makes me and Steve get so bleeding angry when he waits til the last minute or turns stuff in late.

To some extent, that's normal for a teenager. I did it; my parents' reaction was to say that I got a half hour for milk, cookies, or whatever when I got home from school, then I had to do homework. No TV before the homework was done (at least what was due the next day). It wasn't punishment, it was setting priorities.

[Deird, who still has time management issues]

Getting As is easy, so he does it easily, doing anything other than waiting to the last minute is hard as (the fourth round of the ninth circle of) Hell, so he ends up waiting till the last minute and sometimes not making it.

Yeah, this.

I found it really easy to do things really well, but IMPOSSIBLE to do them on time. It's an issue of difficulty, not laziness.

[Karen, who needs to write a new blog post]

PJ Evans, Andy gets home usually half an hour to an hour before I do. He has a snack, walks the dogs, and starts on his homework. No TV or computer games until all that's done.

[Ruby]

Karen: Also, thanks hapax. This discussion has reminded me that he's 12, and puberty generally sucks. He's neither a performer nor an athlete, which would have made these years easier on him, mainly by making them vastly harder on ME*, but he's also taking an entire Pre AP curriculum, which is harder than standard track. So, B's and C's would be a little higher in regular classes. Finally, he's one of the youngest kids in his class -- May 14 birthday -- so he's a little behind in social development. Specifically, he's buddies with girls still; he doesn't have a girlfriend. So, we're working on things. I will have the ADD tests completed, though.

Karen, I'm wondering--do you think it's odd that he doesn't have a girlfriend but is buddies with girls? I consider it somewat unusual to have a girlfriend/boyfriend at that age. Speaking as a former girl of that age, my friends and I were much more interested in hobbies and hanging with each other. If we thought about romance at all, it was generally sighing over cute movie stars, not the smelly (and often, vastly shorter than us) boys our own age. It is a very odd age for everyone, I think. (Also occurs to me that my brother didn't have a girlfriend at that age, or indeed, until years later.)

PJ: To some extent, that's normal for a teenager. I did it; my parents' reaction was to say that I got a half hour for milk, cookies, or whatever when I got home from school, then I had to do homework. No TV before the homework was done (at least what was due the next day). It wasn't punishment, it was setting priorities.

I definitely needed "decompression time" after school at that age (um...and when I was younger than that...and older). Everyone has their own style and way of doing things.

[kisekileia]

Karen, Andy probably gets even angrier at himself than you get at him for not handing things on time. The more you get angry and disgusted with him, the more he'll get angry and disgusted with himself; the more he gets angry and disgusted with himself, the more he'll be intimidated by schoolwork and even less able to get it done on time. Just because he isn't punctual doesn't mean he doesn't want to be punctual. He may very well care about punctuality as much as you do--in fact, he probably does, because kids that age have usually internalized their parents' values fairly thoroughly.

Do not assume that meeting deadlines is easy. To do so with someone who is neurologically wired to be unable to manage deadlines is cruel. Chris the cynic's description is accurate for me, as it is for many people with ADHD. Raising a child to believe that something he cannot do is all important is a surefire way to destroy his self-esteem.

[Deird, who is internally punctual, organised, and queen of her own imaginary world]

The more you get angry and disgusted with him, the more he'll get angry and disgusted with himself; the more he gets angry and disgusted with himself, the more he'll be intimidated by schoolwork and even less able to get it done on time. Just because he isn't punctual doesn't mean he doesn't want to be punctual.

Definitely. I'm an internal neat-freak with a very messy desk.

I also managed to end up with depression in uni, because I was wanting so hard to get things done, but was "clearly lazy" (my words) because I was playing minesweeper instead of writing essays... ALL EVENING LONG. Realising that this might not be my fault was a profound relief.

[Karen, who needs to write a new blog post]

Ruby, I actually prefer that Andy doesn't have a girlfriend. I want him to be comfortable with girls as friends and save the romantic stuff for later. It really bothers me that so many parents allow that kind of relationship at such a young age.

[MercuryBlue]

Please excuse me while I rant.

Apparently there was an incident in Seattle. Somebody helping out with a grade-school class wanted to give the kids a treat, namely plastic Easter eggs with candy inside. Teacher said fine, provided they're called 'spring spheres'. Cue uproar regarding political correctness, including from my mother, who ought, given that she, y'know, has an atheist daughter, to know that the whole world is not Christian. When she brought this up and went on her rant about "political correctness gone wild", and I pointed out that the teacher probably knew damn well that not everyone in the class was Christian (a thirty-kid class probably has four or five kids with no religious affiliation and another kid whose religious affiliation is not Christian), Dad yelled at me. So I got to spend the rest of the forty-minute ride home grinding my teeth loud enough I bet I woke Kit. Fun times.

Know what the stupid bit of this is? Mom's been going off about how stupid it is that my college's spring break is the week before the last week of class, except for the classes that are scheduling things tighter so as to finish before spring break. Thing is, I'm at a community college and many of my classmates are parents, and consequently we've got the same spring break as the local school districts, namely Easter week. And if the local school districts changed their spring break to anytime other than Easter week, Mom would be off on them for 'political correctness'.

[hapax]

Cue uproar regarding political correctness, including from my mother, who ought, given that she, y'know, has an atheist daughter, to know that the whole world is not Christian.

Y'know, my first thought was the same low-simmering rage I have at teachers etc. who give out candy / schedule parties during December --- a heckuvalot of their students ARE Christian, and observe the period before Christmas and Easter as penitential seasons, during which candy and treats are curtailed.

And don't get me started on kids who are diabetic / have allergies / don't really like candy that much.

But those concepts are apparently even more alien than non-Christian kids.

Why the heck are teacher's aides bribing kids with crap anyhow? What's wrong with, I dunno, *teaching* something? If you want to reward a class for a job well done, how about a free reading day?

[Brin (not Meir)]

And if the local school districts changed their spring break to anytime other than Easter week, Mom would be off on them for 'political correctness'.

Apparently, Canadians have this thing called "March break". Since they've already had it, it must not be Easter-based.
My breaks have always been based on the Jewish holidays. Fall vacation (Rosh Hashanah - November 1st or 15th, depending on how late Rosh Hashanah was), winter break (Hanukkah), spring break (Passover + preceding week (sort of: preceding week is Spring Cleaning Week)). It always rubbed me the wrong way knowing most people got Christian-based holidays regardless of religion.

[truth is life]

Know what the stupid bit of this is? Mom's been going off about how stupid it is that my college's spring break is the week before the last week of class, except for the classes that are scheduling things tighter so as to finish before spring break. Thing is, I'm at a community college and many of my classmates are parents, and consequently we've got the same spring break as the local school districts, namely Easter week. And if the local school districts changed their spring break to anytime other than Easter week, Mom would be off on them for 'political correctness'.

Huh, our spring breaks never coincided with Easter, and I am from the richest county in Texas (TM), so you know that there are plenty of arch-conservatives out there.

I also managed to end up with depression in uni, because I was wanting so hard to get things done, but was "clearly lazy" (my words) because I was playing minesweeper instead of writing essays... ALL EVENING LONG. Realising that this might not be my fault was a profound relief.

This sounds awfully familiar; replace ALL EVENING LONG with ALL DAY LONG, and writing essays with doing homework, and it would be spot-on. Last year it would have been perfect with no changes at all. Except for the depression part, I think. My belief in the unworkability of our own mental states, or rather our infinite ability to deceive ourselves, is conflicting with my observation that I don't feel particularly unhappy or upset, in general, only at times. And occasionally I can actually motivate myself to do enough things without putting the computer well out of reach.

[kisekileia]

I understand the importance of keeping schools secular, but I don't really feel comfortable getting behind the "spring spheres" thing. It comes across as a euphemistic rewrite of something that IS sectarian rather than as successful secularization. Everybody knows they're Easter eggs. The kids will probably all call them Easter eggs when talking to each other and telling their parents at home. The non-sectarian thing to do would have been to just give the kids some generic chocolate, not to try to pretend Easter eggs aren't Easter eggs. "Spring spheres" is a use of ridiculous-sounding politically correct language to whitewash a problem, not an actual solution. This kind of thing makes political correctness look bad.

[MercuryBlue]

The kids did call them Easter eggs.

[Froborr, who has too many things to do and is sick and keeps looking over his shoulder...]

@kisekileia: Don't get me started on "holiday trees." My (public, secular) high school had one every year, and every year there were two protests, one from Christians that wanted it called a Christmas tree, and one from non-Christians who wanted to drop the insulting word games and not have the stupid gaudy thing.

[Jason]

Spring spheres? Really?

Why not just call them "eggs"?

Also what are we going to start calling hidden things in DVD menus and video games?

[Raj]

Ishtar Eggs, anyone?

[kisekileia]

...And I was afraid I was going to get blasted for not being PC. I love this community. :)

@Brin: I grew up in Ontario, in public schools, and I can confirm that March Break is not Easter-based. It's just a holiday, one week long, usually in the third week of March. It also at least sometimes coincides with spring break at U.S. colleges, which drives up the prices if you want to use it for a vacation to the States, but it's nicely non-sectarian. At Easter we got Good Friday and Easter Monday off, but that was it.

[Rowen]

@Raj

Vernal Oblong Fertility Ovum?

[Rowen]

on second thought, that should be Oblong Multi-hued Vernal Fertility Ovum Shaped Totems.

[MercuryBlue]

Rowen wins.

[Caravelle]

Anyway eggs have nothing to do with Jesus. Aren't they blatant spring-y fertility symbols ? And as a cultural Catholic it's not my place say that "everyone" celebrates "Easter" so I can understand why someone would want to avoid the name (and I note that the US has "Spring break", which in secular-but-not-always-really France we call "Easter holidays") but still. We can at least keep the "egg" part.

Then again it occurs to me that this may be a transitional period. Between a time with overwhelmingly Christian cultural signifiers that are blatantly religious, to a time where those Christian cultural signifiers get secularized but are still blatantly Christian, culturally speaking, to a space where different cultures get a say... I don't know what these seasonal holidays will look like or how they will be celebrated in different countries two hundred years from now but I'm sure things like "spring spheres" and the culture wars are all part of the process of getting to whatever that will be.

[Caravelle]

And aren't I philosophical this evening...

[Madhabmatics]

@Jason

Bugs. :P

[MercuryBlue]

They're deliberately hidden, though. At least all the ones I know of are. 'Bugs' seems inappropriate, except in context of 'features, not bugs'.

[syfr]

But they're not spheres! They're not even spheroids! They're ... ovoid?

[Caravelle]

Oh, and too late but I don't like to leave things unaddressed : hapax, yay pie ^^