101 Wednesday - Paganism

Introduction

This piece will try to speak about many Pagans; we, its authors, do not try to speak for anyone other than ourselves as individuals with any sense of authority. We do make some attempts at describing others, but these are not applicable to all Pagans and are definitely not prescriptive in any sense. Paganism as a general category has no hierarchy or centralized authority, and many sub-groups prefer to work through consensus, which makes it even more difficult to make accurate broad statements. Each one of us contributing will use her own situation and experience and beliefs as examples; we will try to differentiate between that and any statements about broader Paganism. Please do not take our positions to be authoritative or normative for anyone else. Here, we use the term Paganism to refer to the new religious movement(s) that scholars have mostly dubbed neo-paganism. The common usage among people who are part of that movement drops the prefix and adds a capital, so we follow that practice.

Paganism is better understood as a sheaf of religions with various similarities rather than a single religion or group of religions that branched off from a single source. It would be more appropriate to compare Paganism to Abrahamic monotheism in general, rather than to a single group of religions like Christianity. There are many types of Pagans, some of whom are as different from each other as Jews are from Muslims. Different Pagans draw on different cultural sources, and have widely varying types of observance; one Pagan may not have the first idea what to do at another Pagan’s ritual or observance.

And those practices are important. To people raised in a culture where Christianity’s forms are largely dominant, it is easy to get the idea that a religion is defined by its beliefs. Like many other non-Christian religions, Paganism is much more practice-centered than belief-centered. This may make it seem more like a way of life or philosophy than a religion, but it is similar to other non-monotheistic approaches. As an example, a Pagan whose practice is based on reconstruction of ancient Egyptian religion and a Wiccan who works with the Egyptian deities may both venerate Isis, but they will generally understand themselves to be practicing different forms of religion due to the substantial difference in how they approach her. Conversely, Mary Kaye belonged to a group in which theist views of Isis as a literal goddess and atheist views of her as an archetype or symbol coexisted amiably, held together by commonality of ritual practice.

Scholar of religion Stephen Prothero uses a four-part model to talk about the basics of religions. He says that most religions identify a problem, offer a solution which is also the religious goal, provide techniques for achieving that goal, and have exemplars of people who have achieved that goal. (God Is Not One: The Eight Rival Religions that Run the World – and Why Their Differences Matter, HarperCollins, 2010, p 3.) In most forms of Paganism, we might apply that model in the following way: the problem is isolation, the solution is living in relationship with people and the world around us, the techniques provided are a vast array of means for connecting and fostering relationships, and the exemplars are our companions, especially those who are successfully living in healthy relationships with their world, including non humans and possibly forces, powers, and deity or deities.

Not all Pagans have earth-based practices and beliefs, but this is the most common factor among most people who label themselves Pagan. There are many other groups who identify or are identified by others (accurately or not) as Pagan or quasi-Pagan because of their similarities to other common features or practices of Paganism. For most of this 101, though, we’ll be talking about the most common types of Paganism in the English-speaking world today, grouped into three very loose categories: people who identify as primarily Pagans; Wiccans, and Witches and varieties thereof; and Druids, Heathens, and other people whose practices are largely shaped by inheritances from or reconstructions of particular cultures.

There can be a lot of overlap between these approaches and their practices. They tend to share the approach of building relationships outlined above, and share many techniques, but the types of relationships they seek to build may be influenced by their stance within one or more of these approaches. Pagans who don’t see themselves as Wiccans may use Wiccan rituals or ideas but not be particularly concerned with building relationships with deity in the way Wiccans usually do; Heathens often look to build particular relationships with family and with creatures such as land-wights, while Druids and people focusing on reconstructing ancient practices may be more concerned with historical and archaeological evidence about previous practices.

Laiima on being a Pagan

Currently I am a hard polytheistic Pagan and an animist. When I began having relationships with deities, I first experienced them as archetypes within me. Some of them now manifest in some fashion outside my head. Some are female, some are male, and I'm not sure what Medeine is, although I use female pronouns for hir. I'm drawn to prime numbers of three and above. I don't like polarities, and unitary ideas squick me. I'm all about multiplicity, complexity, and nuances.

Paganism fits me because it encourages experimentation, innovation, and evolution. Tradition and dogma don't constrain my choices, but my ethics are rigorous about respecting the rights of others, no matter who they are. I'm aware that I act at various scales, and that my boundaries at each scale may differ. My community is the whole world.

Many people describe their approach to the environment as stewardship, but I find that viewpoint problematic because it takes for granted that humans know best, and should be running everything. My guiding principle is neighborliness, and I consider everyone I meet -- rocky, wispy, leafy, scaly, feathery, slimy, furry, hairy -- to be my neighbor. My body is a neighborhood where most of its cells are not human, so cooperation, respect, and pluralism begin at home. My religious practice, such as it is, revolves around asking questions like: What can I create with my neighbors that they could not do alone? What can I do for my neighbors that they cannot do for themselves? How can I appreciate and respect my habitat, and perhaps enhance it? How can I make the best use of what my body can do? How can I respect, honor, and celebrate life, death, and mystery?

Literata on Wicca

Wicca, to me, is distinguished from other forms of Paganism mostly by particular worship practices like casting a Circle and calling the Quarters/Elements, and usually an emphasis on deity having both masculine and feminine forms, or other types of polarities, whose interaction and intercourse creates the world. The most straightforward way that this is usually interpreted is as a solar and lunar deity pairing. Wiccans who believe in gods in some sense vary between soft and hard polytheism. Soft polytheists see these figures as “the” God and Goddess, making them syncretic figures that nearly all mythological deities can be understood as aspects or avatars of. Hard polytheists hold that all deities have independent existences and should not be treated as aspects of each other. As Mary Kaye pointed out, it is also perfectly possible to be an atheist Wiccan and to understand deities as metaphors or as Jungian archetypes or aspects of the self.

I am a panentheist. I think that there is one Spirit and many deities. My understanding is a sort of middle polytheism. In practice, I work with both the syncretic God and Goddess and with historical or invented (“found”) deities, and treat them, especially long-established historical ones, as independent. I’ve been known to say that I emphatically do not want to be the person to tell Kali she’s “just” an aspect of the one Goddess. My personal metaphor is that Spirit is an ocean, in which we all exist, and specific deities are currents.

Wiccans may share a ritual meal and make offerings like food, drink, flowers, or incense to their deities. Many Wiccans worship around the time of the full moon, and at the eight Sabbats that make up the Wheel of the Year. I practice daily devotion and other regular rituals; that varies tremendously from person to person. I also make it a practice to connect with the world around me and to celebrate it and my body; since I live in a densely urban area, I have to go to a nearby park to do this, but I dream of the day I’ll be able to have a little patch of a garden for my own worship space. Many Wiccans have a deep relationship with their setting and its natural cycles. Some of what I love best about Wicca is that it helps me value and celebrate the world and my body.

Some Wiccans do magic. Many who do construct their own spells using bits and pieces from others’ magic, from medieval to early Renaissance ceremonial magic, and from folk magic. Many Wiccans pray, as well, and prayer and magic can coexist and even be used cooperatively. One way to think about magic is as a prayer that is acted out in ritual drama. On the other hand, a pantheist or panentheist who sees all consciousness as connected (as most Wiccans seem to, at least to some degree) might do magic by using the connection that all consciousness has within itself to affect a situation, rather than by working through a divine intermediary. I have compared this to “dialing direct” rather than making a phone call relayed through a satellite; I apologize if anyone finds that metaphor trivializing.

Starhawk, a famous Wiccan author, wrote that she could use the phrase “sophisticated non-mechanistic psychology” as equivalent with magic, but she prefers the implications of the word magic. (The Earth Path: Grounding Your Spirit in the Rhythms of Nature, HarperCollins 2005, p 26.) There is some cross-fertilization between Paganism and the New Age, parapsychology, and New Thought movements, but many Wiccans would agree with Starhawk and understand magic in more psychological and religious terms.

Wiccans also do a lot of work with divination and healing. Many Wiccans see themselves as primarily healers. That can take lots of forms, from gardening, to herb craft, to massage, to Reiki. Divination may or may not be understood as magic, but it is common for Wiccans to have tried one or two or several forms. Tarot is very popular, but other methods include rune casting, scrying, using pendulums or dowsing rods, and more.

Wiccan ethics emphasize individual responsibility and choice. Although it is not well articulated, many Wiccans believe in something loosely described as karma, and may believe in reincarnations that are affected by one’s karma, as well as events in this life. (Some, if not many, Wiccans draw on Eastern religious concepts with varying fidelity to the original ideas.) The most common statement of ethics quoted in Wicca is the Wiccan Rede, which says “An it harm none, do as ye will,” meaning that if an action causes no harm it is up to the individual’s discretion. The vague phrasing of this leads to a wide range of opinion about harm and permissibility, causing many individuals to develop their own elaborations.

Mary Kaye on Wicca

A common though far from universal practice among Wiccans is “drawing down” or “invoking” a deity, spirit, or archetype into a practicioner. For example, in a ritual for the feast of the dead Mary Kaye's public-ritual group generally invoked a chthonic (underworld-associated) goddess such as Hecate or Ereshkigal into a senior ritualist who would then officiate at the ritual. As usual among Pagans, views on the meaning of this ritual element vary: it can be seen as mainly symbolic, as literal spirit possession, or (perhaps most commonly) as something in between. My own experience as a practicioner is that (in contrast to Vodoun practices) there is no interruption of consciousness or memory, but there is a definitely altered state of consciousness.

The examples above reflect another aspect of Wicca, which is that it often works with deities from a variety of religious traditions, in contrast to reconstruction-based groups which generally consider only the deities of their own region or tradition. A single Wiccan group may well invoke the Greek goddess Hecate at one ritual and the Sumerian goddess Ereshkigal at the next, though the deities invoked in a single ritual are more often drawn from the same tradition. They may or may not consider Hecate and Ereshkigal to be manifestations of a singular Goddess; individuals in the same ritual group may in fact disagree on this point, reflecting the lesser importance of theology compared to ritual practice common in Paganism. Wicca as a whole is thus a radically syncretistic religion, freely incorporating elements from almost any available source, though not all individuals or groups are syncretistic.

Alsafi on a druidic path

"Druid" comes from roots meaning "wood wise." For my purposes, I try and look back to what is known and (more often) what can be inferred regarding the religious framework of the ancient Celtic peoples--in my case, specifically the pre-Christian, and where possible the pre-Roman, Welsh. (My maternal ancestry is mainly Welsh.) These bronze- and iron-age people had a tightly woven social fabric, and the druids were an essential part of that. Roman writers described the druids as being both priests and natural philosophers--to me, this indicates an understanding of religion as not only important in fostering community, but also in nurturing education and understanding of the natural world. For me, druidism is a means for bringing people into (to borrow the language of Buddhism) right relationship, not only with each other, but also with nature and the ecological systems of the planet we all share. I think of this as the "wood" part of being "wood wise."

This right relationship has to start with understanding, and so education, observation, and compassionate open-mindedness are necessarily a part of druidic philosophy. No one can be wise who is not willing to learn. As our ancestors did, modern druids must look to the natural world, as well as to the stories that we humans tell each other, for wisdom. I seek, in my practice, to reclaim the closeness that everyone once had (whether they wanted to or not) with the cycles of nature. As I learn more, I find that I see these cycles echoed over and over again; not only in the seasons, or the life-cycles of plants and of animals, but even in our behaviour--the actions we repeat in our lives until we learn a new way to approach a problem, or the ways in which we interact with one another.

Animism and ancestor veneration are part of my druidic beliefs and practices as well. For me, all things have a spirit of their own, which is both unique to them and yet a part of a larger whole, which encompasses the universe and disregards time. That I don't fully understand how this works is something I struggle with, but on good days I'm perfectly okay with the knowledge that I can't understand it, because it's so much bigger than I am. One of the results is that I believe (in a soft way) in a spirit world that is probably unreachable from where I am, and may only exist through the memories of the living, but that is very close to us, and closer at some times than at others. So offerings, especially of food, to the dead and to the other spirits that share the world with us, are a part of my spiritual practice.

For me, it can be hard to look into my life and say, "This thing that I do is a practice of my druidism. This is a ritual I perform," mainly because of the way I approach being wood wise as a life practice, rather than a religious framework. I mark and keep the four Celtic fire festivals (in Welsh tradition, Calan Gaeaf, Gŵyl y Canhwyllau, Calan Mai, and Calan Awst--the probably more familiar Irish names are Samhain, Imbolc, Beltane, and Lughnasadh), usually with food and fellowship. And I am mindful of the seasons. The way the light falls, and the feel of the wind on my skin are as different from midsummer to late summer as they are from summer to winter, but noticing the difference requires us to slow down and give nature our full attention. I sing, I spin fibre into thread, I make stories, I plant seeds, I cook, and where I can, I heal. I notice, I honour, I remember, I learn, and if I'm asked, I teach. For me, all these things are at the heart of druidism. Where it brings us into right relationship with each other and the world, it works. And where it works, it's magic.

Conclusion

Where do you find Pagans? You might be surprised: they may be hiding in plain sight in the parks and gardens, at the “New Age” bookstore or just about any bookstore for that matter, at the bead shop, the rock shop, and the craft shop, at the Renaissance Faire and in the bar and leading the PTA. We can assure you that Pagans aren't hiding under your bed and there's not a Witch squashed under your house, but they might be just about anywhere else.

Most Pagans may be “hiding in plain sight” for a couple of reasons. Sadly, it’s still not safe to identify as Pagan in many settings. Pagans borrowed the idea of being “in the closet” about one’s identity from the QUILTBAG community, except we refer to it as being “in the broom closet.” Legal recognition for Paganism, especially in America, is advancing, but very slowly. Paganism’s lack of central organization and almost inherent dislike for hierarchy make this more challenging, and laws against religious discrimination don’t protect people who aren’t recognized as part of a “real” religion. Mary Kaye and her spouse, Wiccans in the US, were delayed for over a year in their attempts to adopt a child by institutional unease about their religion.

The other reason is that Paganism generally does not encourage evangelism. Paganism’s inherently pluralistic nature (many deities, many relationships, many areas of the world) means that many Pagans think of religion as a very personal journey, and therefore they do not assume their approach or practices are appropriate for everyone or even accessible to everyone.

Although we’ve described contemporary Paganism as largely earth-centered, there are other groups who are not earth-focused who are often self-identified as Pagans or lumped in, accurately or not, by others. Usually these groups are Pagan in that they draw on one or more of the same strands: the Golden Dawn and its offshoots are descended from ceremonial magic and the Western esoteric tradition, for example. Followers of Thelema draw heavily on that tradition as adapted by Aleister Crowley, and some of Crowley’s ideas have influenced some forms of Wicca, in turn. Postmodern ideas of experimenting with magic and psychology are at the root of Discordianism and chaos magic(k), so practitioners of those approaches are philosophically more similar to Pagans than just about any other tradition.

There are also long-established religious traditions like Hinduism and indigenous Native American systems that may see Paganism, with its polytheism, pantheism, and panoply of practices, as a natural ally. Many Pagans reciprocate that feeling, and Pagans have often stood in solidarity with such groups to help defend and expand the rights of religious minorities, especially ones that don’t fit easily into the expectations of mainly monotheistic cultures. Afro-Caribbean religions like Santeria, Vodoun, and Candomble also have commonalities with European-based Neo-Paganism, and some of them identify as Pagan. Some groups also work with Pagans to protect religious liberties, as they are some of the most often misunderstood religions active in the Western Hemisphere today. These groups, especially Native Americans and First Nations, also have disagreements with Pagans whose careless syncretism becomes cultural appropriation or misrepresentation of the original traditions, especially since Pagans tend to be relatively privileged in non-religious ways.

If you want to learn more about Paganism, we’ll be discussing recommended resources in the thread and will add them to this piece in its semi-stable form, but the biggest recommendation we can make is to go straight to the source! Go outside, get to know your corner of the world. Connect with plants and animals, with your land and sea and sky. Go inside: meditate, and reflect on your beliefs, feelings, and memories. Read mythology, remember old wives’ tales and good luck charms, and most of all, live in loving relationships with yourself, others, and your surroundings.

 

--Co-authored by Literata, Laiima, Mary Kaye, and Alsafi, with Lonespark's advice

---

The Board Administration Team
(hapax, Kit Whitfield and mmy)

Comments

[Froborr]

This may make it seem more like a way of life or philosophy than a religion, but it is similar to other non-monotheistic approaches.

Can we change "non-monotheistic" here? Because Judaism also heavily emphasizes practice, which is why you can get atheist practicing Jews like (most of) my family.

[Literata]

What would you like to have it say instead, Froborr? I was thinking more of a comparison to religions like Buddhism (often non-theistic) and Confucianism, but I do understand. Maybe we could rephrase to make it positive instead: "....more like a way of life or philosophy than a religion, but similar features are found in many other religions."

[Josh Enigma (the Transhumanist)]

Very good article, but it left me with a lot of questions. To clarify where I'm coming from, I am the atheist/agnostic humanist (and a strict materialist), the skeptic, the linguist and the socio-historian (also a follower of the Enlightenment, especially in its French Continental form.)

1. It was my understanding that Wicca wasn't paganism precisely. I've had a friend who was Wiccan, and he stressed to me once upon a time that it was not paganism. My guess is that the situation is far more nuanced than that, given the way the article above includes Wicca. Does anyone else have any opinions on this?

2. My big question is this: in a world that's as scientifically progressive as ours is, with so much of the world explained, how does one go about being a pagan and keeping the old deities alive? Thor's not responsible for lightning and thunder. Lightning is caused by static build up between two clouds that's released suddenly (experiment: shuffle your feet across a carpet and then touch someone. That's the process that creates lightning, only on a much larger scale), and thunder is the rapidly expanding superheated air around the lightning bolt. With that knowledge, where does that put a deity like Thor? What purpose does he have? (I'm only picking on Thor because he's the first deity to pop into my head, and the deity of a concrete phenomena. I could just as easily focus on Jupiter, although Jupiter/Zeus started out as a god of lightning and thunder but, through character development, become something a little more). It seems to me like it would be more difficult for pagans to use the "god of the gaps" argument that Christians have adapted to, because a - they've got more than one god/dess and b - those god/dess(s/es) are attached to phenomena that has been almost completely explained (some notable cases notwithstanding) by modern technical and scientific advancement. Also, does modern technical advancement impact paganism in the sense that it leads to the creation of new roles for older deities (for instance, is a new god created wholesale to explain certain quantum phenomena, and electrons would be the new domain of Mercury? Or am I totally missing the point?)

3. I've seen atheists say things like/similar to "yeah, well, Zeus might not be too happy with your choice" to Christian fundamentalists while they claim their god is the only god, with the double implication of a. they're wrong for assuming their god is the only god and b. that Zeus doesn't exist and neither does God. What's the pagan take on this?

An explanation of my seemingly erratic capitalization of "god": when god is used as a title, I lower case it. Always. So if I'm talking about the Abrahamic god, It's lower cased. If I'm talking about Greek gods, it's lower cased. Now, God is also the name of the Jewish god (Adonai, YHWH, Elohim, and a half dozen others also work, but God is the one everyone recognizes). Because that's technically his name, it's a proper noun and therefor capitalized.

[Froborr]

I like that phrasing, Literata.

[Josh Enigma (the Transhumanist)]

#2 should say ^ Christian Creationists.

[Froborr]

To clarify where I'm coming from, I am the atheist/agnostic humanist (and a strict materialist), the skeptic, the linguist and the socio-historian (also a follower of the Enlightenment, especially in its French Continental form.)

I think you mean *an* atheist, *a* skeptic, etc. You're certainly not the only one around here.

[Josh Enigma (the Transhumanist)]

Right, my apologizes for using the wrong pronoun.

fwiw, it was a failed attempt to be poetic.

[Literata]

Josh, thank you for the questions. As for your friend who said that Wicca wasn't Paganism, well, that's hir position and/or understanding. As I wrote, I classify Wicca as a subset of Neo-Paganism, broadly understood.

For the second one, I'm not sure, but I think your question might boil down to something like, "What are god/dess/es good for?" I for one do not hold to a "god of the gaps" understanding of either science or more complex issues. My relationships with deity are based on the deities as personalities, not just personifications.

For me, incorporating scientific understandings makes my worship more meaningful, not less. I look at the Moon and call her "the Lady," (that is, the Goddess), and at the same time, I know that men have walked on her/its surface. That is amazing to me, and increases my sense of wonder without making me think that my idea of the Goddess is irrelevant. I see symbolism in the natural world as adding another layer of meanings, not competing with mechanistic meanings or explanations.

Does that at all address what you were asking about?

[The Board Administration Team]

First of all we would like to thank the Co-authors of the Paganism 101 for all the hard work they have done.

Second, we will make changes in the posting as the co-authors work them into the original text and email those changes to us. This may take some time.

[Lonespark]

Josh, I appreciate your picking on Thor because I was going to contribute to this and got pressed for time.

Ask two Pagans a question, get four to five answers, and that might be a conservative estimate, with people who don't practice in more than one tradition. There are many different concepts of Deity amongst Pagans...and religious people generally...

My big question is this: in a world that's as scientifically progressive as ours is, with so much of the world explained, how does one go about being a pagan and keeping the old deities alive?

As scientific knowledge advances, that DOES NOT MEAN that religious knowledge retreats. Or at least it doesn't have to.

Ok, I started typing a big long answer post and I started getting emotional about it plus also there's family chaos erupting, so I'll have to get back to it later.

The first point I would make is that polytheists don't have one-to-one correspondences between gods and phenomena. To do that is to reduce the majesty, the complexity, the mystery, the...complexity of myth and mystery and folkways ancient knowing to a bunch of cardboard cutouts with labels, to something that would barely be acceptable in a halfway decent role-playing game.

As a Heathen I consider the gods my kin. I'd be annoyed on behalf of my human relatives if people tried to pigeonhole them and boil down their character to something so reductive. That goes for the relatives I don't get along with, as well as the ones I like...

[Lonespark]

Oh, this one I can do.

3. I've seen atheists say things like/similar to "yeah, well, Zeus might not be too happy with your choice" to Christian fundamentalists while they claim their god is the only god, with the double implication of a. they're wrong for assuming their god is the only god and b. that Zeus doesn't exist and neither does God. What's the pagan take on this?

The particular thing you're mentioning it, done the way you're saying, is pretty offensive from a Pagan perspective. But most of us are in no hurry to deny the existence of the Christian God. I lot of Pagans have had bad experiences with Him or especially His fan club and therefore don't like Him, but others work with Him, or with angels or saints...

Ok, I guess maybe I don't really know what you're looking for here.

[Lonespark]

I'm chewing on what Literata said. As a Pagan scientist, I love thinking about that kind of question, but I have a hard time getting my thoughts organized and communicating effectively.

[Froborr]

Coming at it from the atheist side, I also believe in non-overlapping magisteria. I don't believe in, but have no trouble imagining, a world in which everything we know about science is true, but it is *also* true that our universe is a subset of a larger reality we can't (yet?) detect (if our universe is "nature," we can call this reality "supernature") in which gods do their thing. To riff on your example, our universe could be a simulation in a computer, and Thor is the programmer charged with monitoring, maintaining, and regularly updating the weather subroutines.

Again, I myself don't believe in any of them, but I'm sure there are countless ways in which one can construct models in which both a particular flavor (or many flavors!) of Paganism are true or potentially true, while preserving modern science, just as for any other religion or family of religions.

[Josh Enigma (the Transhumanist)]

Literata - let me see if I understand then:

For you, it's a matter of symbolism writ large on the natural world, correct? The moon holds a specific personality to you, one that you've anthropomorphized into the shape of a goddess, but at the same time it doesn't compete with existing knowledge that the moon was formed when a runaway planet formed between Earth and Mars and slammed into Earth in the early solar system.

Does the galaxy and other stars hold specific personalities, as well? Do you look at Alpha Centauri, Algol, or the Triangulum Galaxy, and ascribe different personalities to them too? I guess what I'm asking is it it all aspects of nature, or just certain aspects of it?

That's actually a pretty cool way to look at the world. I never thought of it like that before. :)

[Froborr]

(Sorry, my comment at 02:59 was directed at Josh Enigma.)

[Phoenix]

I have nothing useful to add and no particular questions at the moment (which might change later as I digest the article) but I wanted to thank all the co-authors very much for writing it! This is fascinating stuff, and I am enjoying reading about the secrets of the broom closet.

[Literata]

Josh, I would actually come at it from the other direction: I work with, relate to, and sometimes even believe in certain deities, and I see their symbols appearing in the natural world as well as in other experiences. So yes, but I don't usually start with the natural phenomenon, I usually start with the personality.

Since I am both panentheist and middle-polytheist, it is true that everything in nature is part of deity or imbued with deity, not just certain aspects of nature. I would be perfectly willing to believe that a different galaxy has its own spirit, patron, or personification, and if I worked with a certain aspect of nature long enough, I expect I'd get a relationship with him/her/it, or would create one.

One other thing I'd like to mention: what about idealizations, such as Freedom/Liberty, or, say, Love, or Death? I'm working with some other Pagans right now on projects that involve worshipping/praying to a personification of Freedom/Liberty. I think that's a pretty good basis for a goddess, as an abstraction that is complex and important.

I should note that in nature it's not just things that I see as aspects. I will talk about and work with the spirit of the season, or the Element of Water, which is tied to the season of fall and a bunch of other stuff (caps to separate from elements like gadolinium and from water in the mundane sense).

[Literata]

Phoenix, I'm glad you enjoyed! Not so secret anymore, but have fun, and ask whatever occurs when it does.

[Josh Enigma (the Transhumanist)]

@ Lonespark: Hope things get better for you.

No, you answered that question well. I haven't personally been guilty of doing it, but I've seen other atheists throw that around. I'll remember to bring it up in the future that it's offensive to certain individuals.

I saw something interesting the other day and this brought it up, so I figured I'd ask: apparently some sect of Hinduism has taken Jesus and included Jesus as just one of their gods/aspects of god, making Jesus another aspect of Brahman. Anyone ever met any pagan groups, or know any pagan groups, who've done something similar*?

*Louisiana Voodoo/Haitian Vodou springs to mind immediately because God, Mary, and Jesus are important figures: traditional African animism + Catholicism + new world folklore = a really strange blend of faith that's uniquely American in the same way that Jazz is. However, both forms of Voodoo/Vodou are actually the opposite of what I'm talking about - native gods got assimilated in Christianity, in much the same way Coptic Christianity assimilated the ancient Egyptian gods and identified Mary with Isis, and Southern Hoodoo assimilated African traditions with Protestant Christianity. I'm talking the reverse, like what happened with the particular sect of Hinduism I brought up.

[Josh Enigma (the Transhumanist)]

Quick correction: I added Haitian Vodou after I typed that last paragraph, but forgot to remove the analogy to jazz or the "uniquely American as..." (which I used because I was talking about Louisiana Voodoo and thinking about Southern Hoodoo). Oops.

[Lonespark]

I would be perfectly willing to believe that a different galaxy has its own spirit, patron, or personification

I thought that was a really interesting idea that came out of the movie Avatar. That movie had...problems...but it was still a cool idea.

[Literata]

Pthalo, in a new place, one generally starts by finding an open ritual and attending it. (There are Pagan and Wiccan networking sites that I know of, and I'm sure lots that I don't know about for practitioners of other paths.) In general, open, publicly advertised rituals are supposed to be structured in such a way that someone coming in from a different tradition or experience (or none) can follow along. That's one of the challenges of open rituals. From there, if I wanted more community, I might network with people until I found a comfortable group to join or found friends who wanted to start one of their own.

[Leum]

I have a question that I'm not quite sure how to phrase. Maybe, how do you perceive/conceive/interact with your gods? I have a Wiccan friend who sees and hears her gods on an ongoing basis (they're just around her no matter what she's up to), but I know others perceive their gods only during rituals. MG has said that she doesn't claim her gods exist outside of herself. Etc. So, is it common to think of the gods as having independent existence, and what does that mean? Sorry, think of this entire paragraph as one question with subquestions there primarily to illustrate the overall question which I don't know how to put into words.

[Lonespark]

As for finding groups, in my experience it's easy to find other pagans...just go to the local(ish) pagan store, or a Meetup... (And that is my BIG HONKING PRIVILEGE talking, because I have lived in places where that works.)

But finding a group to actually practice with can be tricky. I had an absolutely wonderful Heathen Fellowship in Phoenix, and I have not find anything here yet, but I haven't devoted a lot of effort to looking...and I do stuff with my local UU church, which is good for community and social action and such but spiritually doesn't work for me at all and OMG they do worship INDOORS!!!

I have gotten more involved with The Troth, which is a national Heathen organization, and I am hoping to meet up with a local steward one of these months. I did go to Eastern Mass. Pagan Pride Day last September. That was wonderful and I met some really amazing people but they had come there from far afield around New England. Hopefully most will be back this year...

Also I hope Izzy will pop in sometime.

[Literata]

Thanks, Lonespark - those are all good points. UU churches and the local Pagan/New Age bookstore are major hubs for networking. There is one established Pagan community center, more centers owned or run by specific groups across the country, and efforts to get other community centers going. Those will be a big help if they are successful. Pagan Pride Days are also wonderful; I made lots of connections at the last one I went to and am really looking forward to this year's.

Leum, that's a good cluster of questions. I have had different kinds of experiences; I don't claim to be able to demonstrate the existence of my deities outside myself. I have, however, had meaningful experiences where somebody else could have observed at least part of what was going on. Tarot is the easiest one to point to. (And not every encounter I have with Tarot is like that.)

As I develop deeper relationships with them, I "know they're there" in much the same way that I know what mood my partner is in when he's sitting across the table from me. It's a synthesis of almost undetectable inputs that is something of a black box even to me.

[Rakka]

Josh: understanding something doesn't mean it's any less awe-inspiring.

Knowing that the lightning strike was caused by an explainable phenomenom takes away nothing of its beauty and power. Knowing the rock of the pebble in my palm first crystallized four billion years ago, was subjected to vast heat and pressure and eventually rising upwards to fracture and be broken and smoothed down by the ice age, takes away nothing of its beauty and quiet internal strength. (Because yeah, I love rocks. Especially agates. They're little dreams of stone.) If anything knowing the mundane reason for something is enhancing the experience.

I try to post on Finnish old faith when I get my thoughts and writing more organized.

[Froborr]

I don't claim to be able to demonstrate the existence of my deities outside myself.

If you could, would they still count as deities? I've always thought that was the primary difference between "god" and "sufficiently advanced alien"--no matter how advanced, the alien is bound by the limits of the material and thus testable; the god is not and thus not testable.

[Lonespark]

Leum, your question one is a challenging one. I have had profound, meaningful, sometimes ecstatic moments of numinous connection with the gods and alfar and disir that certainly no one would describe as "supernatural," and it makes me feel like yelling, in response to Josh's question about science fact, "THAT'S MISSING THE POINT!"

I used to live in rural Indiana and deer would run through the backyard, in the gold-hazed summer mornings and the brilliant-colored-cripsness of autumn eve, and I could feel the presence of Frey, and the deer-folk, and maybe alfar too...but that's what I call them, now. If you have other names for the Divine, or the bits of it that my soul was knowing then, it makes no difference, as long as you don't deny my right to pray and honor my gods and ancestors as I see fit.

[Literata]

I don't know, Froborr, but they would definitely start suffering from god of the gaps at that point, so maybe you're right.

Rakka, I would love to hear more about that.

[Froborr]

@Rakka: I completely agree. Reality has a tendency to beggar our imaginations; the world is full of mind-bendingly awesome stuff way bigger, cooler, and more complex than any human could dream up.

[Izzy]

Thanks! And, good time for me to finish up writing and check blogs. :)

Personally, my belief system is best described as...I'm not sure. "Solitary eclectic sometimes-focused animisticish WTFery," is the phrase that comes to mind. Less solitary now--I'll get to that in a bit--but even so, there's no one Pagan subgroup or tradition with which I really identify. Literata's statement that there's one Spirit and many deities probably applies to my beliefs as well; I'm inclined to think that deities are manifestations of the Spirit just as people are, or stars, or starfish. By inclination, I'm pretty syncretistic, though I'm working out how to reconcile that with concerns about cultural appropriation. (Love what I have read about Hinduism, and would like to know more about Voudoun, but do not want to be That Girl and step on anyone's toes.)

I'm probably the least "practiced" of the Pagans on here, actually: I started off in the SoCal boonies, trying little exercises out of Scott Cunningham, got The Spiral Dance in high school and experimented there, both very irregularly and on my own, and then didn't do anything much until about two years out of college, when some friends of mine and I formed a small group with one of our old professors. Now we meet every month, both to talk and to do some magical practice, and I've done some one-on-one work with two of them as well. I've also gone to a bigger and more official ritual with one of my friends from that group, and have started trying to commemorate the Wheel of the Year in some small ways when on my own.* Something of a skeptic at heart, I find that the results I get consistently surprise me.

Although I've had contact with people channeling deities, and it's been awesome, my own practice doesn't tend to lead me that way. I have at times--either in meditation, in ritual, or walking down the street--had the very strong feeling that there is Something, and it is There, and it is Good. (And it is also me, in some ways.) I'm also drawn to particular symbols--fruit, stars, turtles, snakes, owls--and I'm not sure if that's part of anything or not.

I have no problem including Jesus as part of Er, Uh, Stuff, I Guess? but I don't know if the Christians I know would be okay with it, so I generally don't bring it up. I believe he probably *was* divine-in-some-way, or in touch with the divine, and sacrificing yourself is a pretty well-established tradition, so...cool.

And yeah, nothing I believe really competes with scientific knowledge at all, at least as far as I know.

*I am not very good at this. I am not very good, in the absence of other people, at remembering *any* significant dates, and tend to celebrate things like birthdays "oh, whenever."

[Izzy]

And by "that way" I mean "toward perceiving the divine in a personified way". I like studying the archetypes, though.

Rakka: Ooh, yes!

I went to a RenFaire this weekend, and a lady there was doing fortune-telling by means of stone selection. The effectiveness of fortune-telling is a whole other subject--though I felt like I spent my money well--one of the really cool parts of the process was that she did know the geological history of the stones she had, and used that for symbolism as well as the color, cut, and so forth.

[Lonespark]

Knowing that the lightning strike was caused by an explainable phenomenom takes away nothing of its beauty and power. Knowing the rock of the pebble in my palm first crystallized four billion years ago, was subjected to vast heat and pressure and eventually rising upwards to fracture and be broken and smoothed down by the ice age, takes away nothing of its beauty and quiet internal strength. (Because yeah, I love rocks. Especially agates. They're little dreams of stone.) If anything knowing the mundane reason for something is enhancing the experience.

Yes.
What rakka said.
YES.

I often fall back on "Just because you can explain it doesn't mean it's not a miracle," from Small Gods, but that's a bit flip for certain conversations, and doesn't really get at the awe and wonder and mystery. I get it from my religion, and from science, and from poetry and...

[Lonespark]

And and and Thor is married to Sif and she makes the crops grow and and lightning and nitrogen fixing and cool right?

[MaryKaye]

I have occasionally perceived what I take to be direct messages from divinity. The messages are words--I think in words, it's the natural way to communicate with me, a more visual or kinesthetic person would probably have a different experience--but there's nothing close to "hearing voices".

Usually I have done something to enable this contact. One of the most vivid came about seven days in to nine days of daily prayer to Kuan Yin, asking for help on a particular problem. I was aware of a brief, pointed, very concrete statement from her. My reaction was "oh gosh, of course, that's true"--so of course the information could have come from inside of me, but if so it manifested itself in a very external way.

I am comfortable treating that message as divine contact because it passed my personal tests--it was true, it was morally sound, it was compatible with my understanding of the divinity, and it was something I didn't know until I heard it.

(I've told this story before, but basically I was praying to find peace in a social group where I was very unhappy. Kuan Yin said, "I cannot give you peace because peace is not what you want," which suddenly made me realize that the whole attempt was misguided and I needed to leave the group. I had thought I wanted peace, but no, I wanted the situation to be *made right* and that was not going to happen. So I did leave, which from the available evidence was the right decision, and I haven't regretted it.)

The other experience of the presence of the gods has mainly been with invocation, and is much harder to describe. The most powerful mystical experience I have ever had came after being invoked as the Lady in a high summer Oak King/Holly King ritual (the ritual transfer of the year from waxing to waning). I was walking through the green park, and very briefly but intensely I understood that if I chose I could let go of my identity as Mary Kaye, even my physical identity, and walk away into trees and grass and sky. I understand this as a parting gift from the Lady, perhaps similar to whatever happened at Eleusis that left initiates unafraid of dying.

I don't find that Paganism and science conflict for me in practice (I am a research geneticist) because they are not addressing the same thing. "The agouti coloring in deer involves the same genes as in cats" and "Deer are sacred to the Lady of the Greenwood" are just not going to come into conflict. I don't see the gods as explanations of natural phenomena; I see natural phenomena as symbols or manifestations or aspects of the gods. I do find that some scientific truths--particularly the genetic commonalities of life and the origin of heavy elements in past supernovas--are profoundly meaningful for me in a religous sense as well, but if someone proved tomorrow that we were, say, wrong about the supernovas it wouldn't affect my faith, only take away a particular mode of appreciation.

[MaryKaye]

Kevin Maroney wrote in an internet post many years ago that one common Pagan attitude toward borrowing from Christianity could be expressed as follows:

"All the goddesses are One Goddess, including Eve, Lilith, and Mary. All the gods are One God--except Jehovah, Jesus and Satan."

In public ritual groups this has pretty much been my experience, although I would add that a lot of Pagans will happily work with archangels. The only time I have ever seen Jesus addressed in circle, it was to ask him to look after his followers in a prayer after some great disaster, maybe 9/11--that is, explicitly as "their god" and not "our god".

In my coven practice individual coven members have a lot of past issues with Christianity, but when we got to the Devil card of the Tarot, we did rituals addressing that archetype just as we had with the others (including the angels of the Lovers, Temperance, and Judgement). We've never had occasion to do ritual to Jehovah or Jesus, though.

In my private practice the only time I've had occasion to address the God in whose name I was baptized, it was to ask for release from that baptism. To my surprise, the experience was much like addressing a Pagan god, though I don't think I was really wholeheartedly open to hearing the answer. I really needed a particular answer, and in my experience that mindset is poison to any form of divination or prophecy.

[Leum]

I have another question, one I can more easily put to words? How do those of you who are (or plan on becoming) parents raise your children? With most religious traditions, there are pretty set ways to introduce young people into the community, but paganism seems much more personal. You choose your gods, the way you worship, etc. Is is even possible to raise pagan children?

[Deird, who has been away for a short while]

Thor's not responsible for lightning and thunder. Lightning is caused by static build up between two clouds that's released suddenly (experiment: shuffle your feet across a carpet and then touch someone. That's the process that creates lightning, only on a much larger scale), and thunder is the rapidly expanding superheated air around the lightning bolt. With that knowledge, where does that put a deity like Thor? What purpose does he have?

(Disclaimer: I am not a Pagan.)

Who says it has to be one or the other? It's perfectly possible to know all about the physical effects that cause thunder and lightning, and also know that Thor is present in the thunder and lightning and causes them to happen.

Much like I believe that my God can heal people in ways that would also be explainable as "just" medical facts.

[Literata]

[Disproving certain scientific ideas with symbolic meaning] wouldn't take away my faith, only take away a particular mode of appreciation.

To which I would add, "and possibly present others."

Mary Kaye explained both drawing-down and her experience of it and the presence or co-presence of deity much better than I could begin to try to. Thank you, MK. Another thing I will add is that in one ritual where I was personifying/drawing-down the goddess as she oversees the harvest, I said something that wasn't in the script, that I didn't know I was going to say before I said it, and it was perfect. That was a powerful experience of divinity for me.

[Izzy]

@Literata: Yes--I've had that happen as well. There wasn't a script, but I said stuff without knowing what to say, but also feeling like I needed to say it. It was very strange and very powerful.

[Laiima]

@Rakka, Count me in as another person eagerly awaiting whatever you might write about Finnish mythology or religion.

@Leum, I started experiencing gods sometime after I had discovered Jungian archetypes, and was working through which ones might apply to me. So for instance, Demeter is an archetype. And I was raised by someone who hated her own inner Demeter, so I had to work through lots of complicated feelings before I could discover that I really do have a bit of Demeter inside me. But Demeter doesn't talk to me, and she remains an abstraction to me.

Ereshkigal is someone I did not go looking for, but you could say she found me. She first manifested in my life during an Aquarian month. (Following the model of the book, Making the Gods Work For You, I use the astrological months to think about various deities and qualities.) Aquarius is said to be ruled by Saturn and Uranus. Neither of those gods do much for me, and I was looking for more goddesses anyway, when I realized that Ereshkigal seems to work the same way. And ever since then, she's been a big part of my life. Her personality is distinct from mine, but I do get a sense, often, of what she thinks of my situations, and what she would like me to do [prune, most often].

Like Lonespark, Literata, and MaryKaye, I experience natural phenomena as themselves, but also as having a deeper reality. I consider myself a scientist, and I think Paganism deepens my appreciation of the mystery and complexity in the world. They do not oppose each other.

[Steve Morrison]

I try to post on Finnish old faith when I get my thoughts and writing more organized.

That would be fascinating, especially since I happen to be reading the Kalevala just now (in the old John Martin Crawford translation from the Internet Sacred Text Archive, and I'm also trying to proofread it a bit).

[Laiima]

I have issues with my Catholic upbringing, such that I started the process of negating my baptism, but now I'm not sure I want to go through with it.

In any case, even when I was Catholic, I was a henotheist, rather than a monotheist. So I've always believed in multiple gods. (The Biblical Yahweh would hardly need to warn the Jews away from worshiping other gods if there weren't any other gods.) There were many times when I found myself at a Catholic Mass, and expected by my (idiosyncratically Catholic) mother to "keep up appearances" and accept Communion even though I was a Pagan. I spoke to Yahweh in my head, apologizing for the necessity but reminding him that while what I was doing was against church rules, going against *my mother's* wishes would truly bring tangible fearsome wrath down on my head. I figured he understood parents and children. He's not a god I would worship again, but I think we have mutual respect.

I don't have any issues with Jesus. I don't venerate him, but I do see him as a divine child figure. Mary was always much more important to me than any of the male trinity. But she gets such a raw deal in Christianity, and I prefer female gods who are powerful in their own right. (If my hard polytheism is wrong, and all goddesses are one, I think she'll understand.)

I recently realized I retain a relationship with St. Francis of Assisi who would've been my confirmation saint if that had been allowed. He has been sort of a mentor to me since I was a child, and he can't really be replaced, so he remains in my pantheon.

[Literata]

Laiima, that's interesting about St. Francis of Assisi. My partner and I once did a joint ritual for healing some kittens who were very sick, and he (culturally Catholic) called on St. Francis, and I called on the Goddess as Lady and Mother of all animals (and other beings). The ritual felt right at the time, and the results were very good, so I think St. Francis might be a bit of a heretic at heart himself. :) Or at least very cooperative.

[MaryKaye]

Leum writes:

I have another question, one I can more easily put to words? How do those of you who are (or plan on becoming) parents raise your children? With most religious traditions, there are pretty set ways to introduce young people into the community, but paganism seems much more personal. You choose your gods, the way you worship, etc. Is is even possible to raise pagan children?

Well, a Wiccan would teach Wiccan ritual techniques, the seasonal holidays, basic magical techniques, and the tools for the kid to find their own deities. At least that's what I've seen other Wiccan parents do, and we have third-generation Wiccans in the local community. I have also seen a lot of "here are tools to educate yourself about comparative religions".

We did childrens' observances at some of the public Pagan events. I don't think they were great--we needed someone with more gift for such work than we had. Mainly they were season-observance rituals with relatively little theological content. (The spring equinox egg hunt was a reliably successful example, except for the year we accidentally hid some *raw* eggs.)

My son was an atheist when I first met him, and remains so. We negotiated a position of mutual tolerance. We do a few seasonal rituals with no theistic content, particularly a New Years' sweep of the house and ceremonial lighting of the new year's fire. I wish we would do more, but schedules are hard for us right now--so often we get to, say, Midsummer's Day and I don't have the energy or he doesn't have the tolerance, and I don't want to push it.

[Josh Enigma (the Transhumanist)]

@ Rakka - I never said that, and never meant to suggest it. Just because I know where the moon came from and according to leading theories and that the light the moons shines is not its own but the sun's doesn't make it any less beautiful.

@ Froborr - we have to disagree. I do not feel that reality puts a damper on imagination - if it weren't for reality there would be no imagination at all, because we'd have nothing to compare our fantastic against, thereby making it fantastic.

@ Deird - I'm a materialist; I prefaced my comment with that. I don't think in black and whites, but if I have an explanation for something that's material and makes sense that I can reproduce, I feel no need to attach something supernatural onto it to only further the mental gymnastics required to justify it. Saying there's the presence of Thor in lightning and thunder leads me to ask whether or not Thor is also present in my computer screen, the power lines, the light-bulb in my room and in all of the flashlights all over the world, and anything else powered by/affected by electricity/electrons (including sunlight; photons are nothing more than messenger particles thrown between electrons).

[Literata]

Josh, just FYI, there are some Pagans who would agree with all of the potential presences of Thor that you mention.

[MaryKaye]

Josh, one thing the main article mentioned that I think is helpful is "what is the point of this religion?" and the answer "connection". If lack of connection is not a problem for you, then you won't find solutions to it useful or interesting. I think the vast majority of Pagans do not expect everyone to be a Pagan, precisely because it's a set of solutions to a problem not everyone perceives.

In general, I'd say Pagans who see Thor in the lightning interpret that as telling them something about Thor--not something about lightning. And would say, whether you also see Thor in your computer screen is up to you. Is it illuminating to do so? Does it further your connection to that god? --Do you *want* a connection to that god? Because if not, it's moot. I just ignore Hera. I don't look for her correspondences, I don't explore her myths, I don't pray to her or do ritual to her. I don't feel I have anything to gain by doing so, so I just don't. And I would regard taking that attitude toward *all* gods as perfectly reasonable.

[Josh Enigma (the Transhumanist)]

Let me un-step the line and mention that I'm not trying to come across as hostile, and I apologize if I am.

Thanks for the answers to the questions; I appreciate them. I'm interested in trying to figure out why people come from the positions that they do; if there pagans who would agree with all of my points, or it's a connection, then it's something I learned I didn't know before.

I *do* have a hard time wrapping my mind around this. Thanks for the patience, even if I have come across hostile or conceited.

[chris the cynic]

Saying there's the presence of Thor in lightning and thunder leads me to ask whether or not Thor is also present in my computer screen, the power lines, the light-bulb in my room and in all of the flashlights all over the world, and anything else powered by/affected by electricity/electrons (including sunlight; photons are nothing more than messenger particles thrown between electrons).

I get the impression that you see this as a problem. If that is correct, could you explain what is problematic about these questions?

[Laiima]

Having gods personify certain energies can be a way of interacting with them in a meaningful and respectful way. Thor isn't in my pantheon, but I do have a god of problem-solving/troubleshooting, and when I'm dealing with a challenging puzzle that I'm not sure how to solve, thinking there is a being who specializes in such things can sometimes be helpful.

But like MaryKaye said, if you're not looking for connection, maybe none of this is relevant.

[Froborr]

@Josh: That's not what I was trying to say; I should have just quoted Haldane: "The world is not only queerer than we imagine; it is queerer than we can imagine." We think we have imagined wonders, but the wonders you can see through a telescope, or a microscope, or just stepping outside and paying attention, are greater still.

Which is not to say imagination has nothing to contribute!

[Josh Enigma (the Transhumanist)]

@ Chris the cynic: I don't see it as a problem.

[Izzy]

@Josh: My answer would be "Sure, why not?" to "Yes, absolutely," depending on my mood.

@Christianity/baptism: I was baptized Presbyterian, and have no problem with that, nor any particular wish to revoke it. My personal experiences with Christianity have been largely positive; while I have vast shouty problems with various sects thereof, I see the religion in the abstract as a perfectly good and equally lovely path. Just not mine.

[Brin]

Is it deliberate that the author line has a link to Literata's blog but not Laiima's?

Laiima has now gotten back to us and given permission to link to hir website.

[MercuryBlue]

Mary was always much more important to me than any of the male trinity. But she gets such a raw deal in Christianity

I've seen it said (probably on pandagon) that Mary is set up as the paragon of virtue, filling both the roles that a perfect patriarchal woman fills, mother and virgin. These roles being diametrically opposed, no one else can fill both roles, therefore no one can be a perfect patriarchal woman except Mary. Which has no bearing whatsoever on the conversation except that I think it's interesting. Other things I think are interesting: the idea that Jesus is the son of a god, a Roman god, probably Jupiter or Mars, and the idea that Jesus is the son of the angel Gabriel.

I have nothing to add to the rest of the discussion except that I'm fascinated.

[Literata]

Sorry, I didn't mean to be overly self-aggrandizing by approving a link to my blog. I just thought it was a good link for people who wanted to know more about me to be able to find easily.

MercuryBlue, I'd agree with what you're talking about completely about the impossibility of fulfilling all of Mary's roles in any human experience. And the comparisons between Jesus and Mithras are even more intriguing and potentially amusing, in my opinion. The more I look into mythology, the more complex I find it, at every level and every turn.

[Dash]

Thank you, everyone, for this 101. I am learning a great deal and enjoying these new perspectives. Rakka, add me to the list of people eagerly awaiting what you have to say about the Finnish old faith.

I have a question about offerings. I come from a Christian tradition, in which an offering is meant to be the giving up of something precious, something that it is a struggle to give up. I have the impression it is not the same kind of thing in any of the Pagan practices you have described. Could you talk a bit more about the function and practice of offerings? It seems to me that it might tie in with the notion of connectedness that underlies so much of what you have described, but I'm not quite seeing how it works or how it fits into your practice.

I hope that question makes sense.

[chris the cynic]

Other things I think are interesting: the idea that Jesus is the son of a god, a Roman god, probably Jupiter or Mars, and the idea that Jesus is the son of the angel Gabriel.

Is that last bit my doing? Whether or not it is, I will repeat what I've said before: Mary and Gabriel make an adorable couple.

-

@Josh

Ok. Thanks for clarifying.

[Izzy]

@Dash: There are two kinds of sacrifice in my practice.

One--which I don't use much, on account of the aforementioned not having done many group rituals--is more of a sacrifice in the "classical" sense. You dedicate a meal or whatever to a deity, but that doesn't preclude enjoying it yourself. It's more that you're specifically inviting the deity to be part of whatever-it-is.

The other is sacrifice as a way of producing altered consciousness. I might fast for a day, spend an hour with my hands bound, even be celibate for a period of time, but it's not either because the gods want me to do that specifically; rather, it's because going without those things makes me more aware of how they fit into my life and how I fit life around them, and also because any significant change in behavior can shift your consciousness, which is useful.

Cannot speak for others, of course.

[MercuryBlue]

Is that last bit my doing?

I think I got it out of Mists of Avalon, actually. Sorry.

[Samantha C]

So...This might be slightly off-topic, but it seems close enough and I trust this group enough to ask, and it seems like the paganism umbrella covers this.

I've been atheist/agnostic/areligious for a really long while now, but there were a choice couple of incidents when I was about 11 or 12 that made me believe, for a time, in the Greek gods (Hellenic Reconstruction, right?). And not knowing then that anyone else still followed them, and honestly being sort of made fun of by my (Jewish) parents for it, during a truly tumultuous identity time, I figured I'd grown out of it and left it as a weird phase in my otherwise non-religious life.

But...I'm coming to the point where I want to find out what people really do believe about them. I want to know if the things I perceived as evidence would actually be convincing to a real believer, if they were in-character I suppose...to re-visit the idea in general. And I was wondering if anyone here had any resources, books, forums (would be excellent, to talk to people personally) that might be a good starting point. I'm kind of scared that if I google out into the void, I'm going to make myself look like an idiot.

[Lonespark]

Saying there's the presence of Thor in lightning and thunder leads me to ask whether or not Thor is also present in my computer screen, the power lines, the light-bulb in my room and in all of the flashlights all over the world, and anything else powered by/affected by electricity/electrons (including sunlight; photons are nothing more than messenger particles thrown between electrons).

Yes, absolutely. Unless you're of the opinion that it's Odin, or Loki, or all of the above...

And I kind of feel like you're 'splaining about physics. Several of us are scientists.

[Lonespark]

Samantha C, I'm sure actual practitioners could help you better, but there are some good links at the end of the Wikipedia article.

MadGastronomer would be a slacktivite to contact on the subject?

[Lonespark]

The subject of raising children pagan has a ton of answers. Here's mine today:

I have no intention of raising children who share my beliefs. How could I possibly hope to control what they believe? But I want to make sure they know what I believe and what I honor my gods, ancestors, etc. So I read myths to them, and have them help me light the altar candles and incense and pour mead for offerings. I hail Thor or Skadi or Frigga, or pray for guidance from the disir, or help from Eir, or greet the landwights, when they can see and hear me.

Myth books with good pictures are invaluable, and I am always on the lookout for more. I am raising my kids as UU kids with a Heathen mom (and agnostic dad who just happens to name his livejournal account and most of his WoW characters from Norse myths). I take them to open rituals whenever I can, and shopping at Heathen and Pagan stores...

For a while I felt that my kids were at risk of becoming default-Christianish because we live with my Mom, so I stepped up more with reading and explaining and I feel that's going well and is fun. ("Loki, NO SWIPING!" etc.)

[hapax]

Thank you SO MUCH to all of the contributors to this article, and to the thoughtful discussion.

It is both informative and illuminating.

----

@Dash, I am hardly qualified to speak about Pagan belief and practice, but in Christianity, "sacrifice" doesn't mean "give up" but literally "make sacred" -- set apart as reserved for divine use.

Now under certain contexts, the divine is explicitly APART from me, and thus for me to set something apart means that I don't, can't have it.

But in other contexts, the divine explicitly becomes PART of me, or I am explicitly standing in the place of the divine. In that context, it is not only appropriate, it is in fact my holy duty, to make use of that thing sacrificed.

Thus the Christian consumes the bread and wine we offer in sacrifice. We take the money and time we "sacrifice" to God and then use it ourselves on tasks we believe God "calls" us to do.

Is this compatible with (some) Pagan understanding?

[Josh Enigma (the Transhumanist)]

Sorry Lonespark, not trying to. If you're a scientist that makes you a head and body above me, a proud graduate of Google and got his degree from Wikipedia Online University (on the subject of science, anyway. I'm a literature major, English teacher, and history teacher who really regrets getting his degree. I probably should've gone science because I love it so much, but alas, we know how that goes).

[Josh Enigma (the Transhumanist)]

^I'm not trying to.

[Lonespark]

Well, I'm an unemployed scientist right now, so I'm kinda touchy about it. Or, you know, everything.

[Josh Enigma (the Transhumanist)]

If you don't mind me asking, what's your field?

You might stand a good chance of employment if you go back and get a Bachelor's in education. The last few schools I've subbed for here in MI have hired science teachers (of which I am not. Oh no, I had to pick the dime-a-dozen degree...)

[Laiima]

Is it weird if I answer for Lonespark? We share a love of rocks, and I know she is a geologist. (I'm an unemployed geographer, but family & friends kept misremembering me as a geologist, due to that love of rocks.)

[Laiima]

@Samantha C, do you feel like you have to talk to someone who is involved with Greek gods? I know a fair amount about Greek gods, from a lifelong fascination with mythology. The Greek goddesses in my pantheon are Demeter and Kore. Oh, and Tethys. (I really need to make a list. I keep forgetting.)

[Samantha C]

Laiima, I'm not really sure. I do want to find information specifically from people who do worship them, but I don't know that exclusivity is a major thing. Anything might help, and I'm trying to figure out where to start. :) I really just want to talk to people who take it seriously, not as something weird and unheard of.

I should head to bed; I'll check in tomorrow but if anyone wanted to send anything my way at mockingdragon at gmail, I'd really appreciate it.

[Cliff]

Fascinating post, I really liked the description of your various individual stances on Paganism.
A lot of the time it seems like I run across generic statements like "neo-pagans cast spells and worship the male and female aspects of the Divine," and it always strikes me as being so bland that I usually decide to just stick to reading mythology.

Laiima's take on stewardship and Alsafi's description of being able to feel the difference between the midsummer sun and the late summer sun really struck home with me. I grew up in a very rural area and developed a close relationship with the natural world there (and yeah, I could feel the season change from summer to fall in September). Living in Phoenix I feel continually estranged from that.

[Rakka Salminen]

So, let's see if Typepad allows me to post this time...

I came to Finnish old faith, suomenusko, the rather natural way of doing things and later on learning of their significance. The biggest problem is that the oral tradition started to be written down after centuries of Christian influence, and even the syncretic version of it was no longer alive in most places two generations after the wars. Kalevala is mostly rewritten by Elias Lönnroth, containing some legit pieces - mostly the origins of the world and fire and iron, and the great oak - but some of it is pure fabrication such as the whole Aino story and, I think, the bit in the end with Marjatta and Väinämöinen leaving. It's understood that the recurring chatacters in Kalevala - Väinämöinen, Ilmarinen, Joukahainen, Lemminkäinen, Louhi - are gods and not just mythical heroes.

Suomenusko is pretty animistic and shamanistic in practice. There is "väki", folk in everything. It's nonpersonified, but each thing has their own "väki", some stronger than others. People and hair especially have väki, and the word has connotations to strenght. "Luonto", nature/character is a representation of the ancestors in a person, but is likewise not personified outside of the person who has it. There are also gods and local gods, and the dead.

A lot of the gods are shown in Kalevala as heroes, but there are others - Lempo, goddess of fire, love, fertility, magic and death, and "Ukko" whose real name was probably Perkele (nowadays one of the names for Satan and similar to the lithuanian Perkunas) and who was apparently originally Baltic deity. Ukko was retconned into chief of gods but it's unlikely that was the case originally (here's my bias speaking). Lempo was also made into an aspect of Satan.

The local gods were those of the house, sauna, riihi, household, a hunter's cottage and other human-frequented places. Forest, water, rocks, fields and such also had their holders.

Sauna was, and still is very important place. "Löyly", the steam from sauna's stones also meant "henki", breath/spirit/life. Thunder-struck or driftwood logs were used for ritual saunas, depending on the purpose. Alder was especially powerful tree for rituals, because it "bleeds", the leaves don't change colour in the autumn and it grows by the water, so it's associated with Väinämöinen - the patron of water, wisdom and poetry. Rowan was also important and sacred tree. The rowan in the house's yard was never harmed and was often the tree food and drink were sacrificed to.

I feel that answers to living well are often best found close. It creates a connection to the ground you live on, and the living and dead people around you. The virtues important to suomenusko are ones that resonate well with me - honesty, moderation, cooperation. I haven't got a personal experience of the divine, not for lack of searching, and I am a fairly solitary and not that devout practicioner, but I do the things that feel right and for the time being that feels like the best way to handle spiritual needs. I would like to experience a deeper bond to reassure myself that I am on the right path but if it's not to be, then it's not.

[Amaryllis]

Lonespark: I did go to Eastern Mass. Pagan Pride Day last September.
I haven't finished chewing over the highly interesting article, let alone catch up with the comments.

I just want to say, I had to read that sentence twice, because the period after the "Mass." makes a helluva difference.

(imagining Pagan priests concelebrating with the archbishop...talk about your ecumenism...I think I need coffee...)

[Froborr]

@Rakka: That is fascinating. I especially like the part about trees, being a big fan of trees myself.

One question: "two generations after the wars." Which wars would this be? Or if you're not sure of the English name for them, what year?

[Literata]

hapax, that is completely compatible with most of my understanding of sacred and sacrifice or offering. Sacrifice is a loaded and often-misunderstood word, so I tend to use offering instead, but my understanding is very similar.

Rakka, thank you! I love World Tree imagery and stories too, and it's always interesting to find different trees or species in that role.

Amaryllis, once I stopped laughing, I realized that it's worth saying that the accidental connection you made is not necessarily a bad one. The Roman Catholic hierarchy would be horrified, of course, but many, many Pagans and Catholic both recognize that Catholicism is in some ways the most "pagan" of contemporary Christian denominations today.

[Dash]

Izzy and Literata, thank you for your answers.

Hapax, thank you for this:

in Christianity, "sacrifice" doesn't mean "give up" but literally "make sacred" -- set apart as reserved for divine use.

I would want to specify that in some varieties of Christianity (not just "in Christianity"), “sacrifice” has what amounts to a technical meaning (albeit one justified by its etymology). And for nonChristians who are trying to figure out what the heck we’re talking about, I tried to be specific in referencing the particular variety of Christian tradition I came out of, in which “sacrifice” has the same meaning it does in ordinary 21st century US American English: giving up something (generally something that is difficult to give up).

I used the word “offering,” which is what Literata used, in part for accuracy and in part because the two words have somewhat different resonances in “low-church” Christianity. But I’m not quite sure how to be specific about those differences.

But if I’m reading the replies correctly, it sounds like the various Pagan associations with offerings is very much like that in the variety of Christianity hapax was referring to. Or "what Literata said."

(Personal note: I remember when I was learning about Roman Catholicism, what was most attractive was actually the borrowings from local Pagan traditions. In other words, the part Catholicism didn't share with the Christian traditions I was familiar with.)

[Josh Enigma (the Transhumanist!)]

@Froborr:
I can only guess, and I hope Rakka will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going wing it with either the Northern Crusade (1200s; Swedes make Finland part of their empire) or the two Wraiths; the Great Wrath and the Little Wrath (1714-1743; Russia v. Sweden; Russia conquers Finland several times).

[Brin]

Amaryllis: I just want to say, I had to read that sentence twice, because the period after the "Mass." makes a helluva difference.

(imagining Pagan priests concelebrating with the archbishop...talk about your ecumenism...I think I need coffee...)

I'm not sure the coffee would help. I don't drink coffee, but that didn't stop me from having much the same reaction.

[Dash]

@ TBAT:

Second, we will make changes in the posting as the co-authors work them into the original text and email those changes to us. This may take some time.

Would it be possible to let us know when the authors believe the changes are more or less complete so we can reread the post? It is asking too much, I suspect, to ask that you put a message in the discussion to tell us a substantial change has been made, but a final or near-final "go and reread" would be helpful.

[alsafi]

Re: the links in the attribution, TBAT was kind enough to ask us all what our preferences were as far as linking to our websites, and we all chose whether to link or not, so it wasn't a case of them overlooking anyone, but rather of responsiveness to our individual wishes.

Late to the party on the scientific explanation vs. religious explanation, but I'll add my voice to the rest saying that a religious understanding of natural phenomena is, at least for me, a way of adding a layer of symbolism and meaning. Druidism is explicitly pro-science, after all. My religious views neither take away from or change my understanding or appreciation of scientific explanation. It's like the difference between reading a story and enjoying it for the story, then learning more about symbolism and reading it again to appreciate the use of symbols, then learning more about story structure and word use and reading it again to appreciate how the language all fits together to make it work. I can appreciate an oak tree without knowing anything about biology or botany, or about symbolism or magic, but either approach only deepens my appreciation, and having both only means I have more ways of appreciation.

Sacrifice... I think we use one word to cover several different concepts about sacrifice. One is "giving up something meaningful," and I see that as being like Izzy talks about, where the goal is to make myself more aware of how this thing/activity fits into my life. I sometimes will also use this as an indicator of seriousness--I want a certain good in my life, and here is a thing I am willing to give up to get it (which is sometimes just a straightforward time swap, and sometimes is more complicated than that). Another is the "setting apart," or what Izzy called the "'classical' sacrifice," where a meal is sacralized, and then enjoyed mindfully. To my mind, the third is a "gift" sacrifice, where something is set aside, burnt, poured out, or in some other way given to the gods or spirits and not used by the giver. For these, it's not really important what the item means to me. What matters is that it's something that I think the entity receiving it will like. I wouldn't give almonds to my grandfather's spirit--he hated them in life. But Rhiannon of the Birds would probably appreciate them, crunched up small and scattered for the wrens.

[Lonespark]

Cliff, I hope you either find peace with living in Phoenix of move somewhere that feels more right to you. Have you had a chance to check out any open rituals in you area?

[Dash]

"And I kind of feel like you're 'splaining about physics. Several of us are scientists.

Josh, not to pile on, but several of us, both here and on Slacktivist/Patheos, are also linguists or people with significant linguistic training. If you're going to claim that title, ... well, word to the wise.

[Dash]

Posting too much today--sorry, everyone--but it just occurred to me that the "low church" varieties of Christianity very carefully distance(d) themselves from what they see as the Paganlike elements of the Christian tradition. The result is that they lack, as far as I know, a process (other than simple announcement) whereby something is made sacred. It is, in my view, a real loss.

I don't know enough about the Unitarians to say much, but my understanding is that much of what they do actually restores the notion of the sacred by means other than announcing, "we are now doing sanctified things."

[Rowen]

My personal view of science! vs. gods is something akin to my VERY limited perception of the Dreamtime, or more like "Things that happen on a spiritual or a mythical plane." So, Queztalcoatl might not have been gliding above the waters at the Big Bang, but in the mythical realm, He was. I remember reading something dealing with ancient Rome (I can't remember if it was something written during the time or part of the Masters of Rome series, but I remember someone talking about how they knew enough to know that Olympus didn't exist in the real world, but maybe it did on a spiritual level).

[Lonespark]

Ooooh, linguistics! Fun!

And actually that reminds me of what Izzy was mentioning regarding Afro-Diasporic religions. I feel very drawn to learn more about Haitian Vodou especially. I have a partially-enacted plan to learn Kreyol as a step in that direction, and for other reasons including my general-purpose love of languages, the more diverse the better. I want to read everything I can and learn everything I can and give respect and honor to the lwa in any situation the warrants it, and be the best ally and supporter I possibly can...

Ok, I'm losing my train of thought. But the point is I know I'm an ignorant fool when it comes to those traditions, and even if I learn a lot it will still be outsider knowledge and it would be rude and arrogant to give impressions otherwise, but at the same time I think it's sort of a duty to learn about and stand up for traditions that are at least as complex and beautiful and powerful and meaningful and full of wisdom and worth preserving as mine, where there's a major difference in the respect accorded by mainstream US society, due to racism and other vile prejudice.

[Lonespark]

Oh, I meant to get in there that I have had somewhat similiar feelings about Judaism growing up. I was raised in a church that held combined services with the local Reform temple, so I grew up with feelings of connection and respect that leave me feeling keenly a lack of a seder, etc. And Old-Skool Unitarianism, which is somewhat preserved in New England UU churches, especially through connections with sister congregations Romania, ties into that too...To the extent that I'm comfortable honoring Jesus, it's as an ethical teacher in the tradition of Jewish thought...And Heathens often admiringly cite Jewish ideas of right living and success in preserving and adapting ancient ways.

[Josh Enigma (the Transhumanist! at work)]

@ Dash:
My training in linguistics is actually more significant than my training in science (but not SCIENCE! No, one is never trained enough in SCIENCE!). I'm naturally inclined towards languages (I taught myself Old English and Gothic with a scattered and basic knowledge of Modern German; I can also read Ancient Greek), but to know that there are others on this board who are linguists is pretty cool. If I ever need help, I know who I can come to, and it's at two-way street, so if you need help, I'll gladly offer it.

Part of it is the teacher in me, and part of it is the person who will see complicated stuff posted on boards but not want to speak up and ask for it to be broken down further for fear of looking silly (or who reads Wikipedia articles and wishes that they would post them in something resembling Modern English rather than technojargon). I know there are people out there who won't understand certain things (beyond just the posters; I'm pretty sure this page gets thousands of hits a day and not everyone who lurks here is a poster), I and try to break it down into simple terms for those who are like me; it's not any kind of condescension on my part, and if you know the material, I'm not directing it to you. However, part of the problem is that I'm not including a disclaimer that states I'm aware there are people who already know this. I'll be sure to do that in the future to prevent misunderstandings. :)

[Laiima]

@Dash, I agree about low-church Christianity. And I would add that, at least in my experience married to a person with a low church background, they don't have any sense of (religious) mystery, mysticism, or ecstasy. I've never been able to figure out how a sensitive/poetic/artistic person whose is raised low church finds anything to connect with.

Despite my problems with my Catholic upbringing, since meeting Spouse and hearing about low church things, I've been very grateful I was raised Catholic, and not low church. There are those Pagan syncretic elements as you mentioned; there's plenty of mystery, mysticism, and potentially ecstasy; there are the saints; there is Mary; and in some sense, the most important
(probably because I'm a visual artist), there are truly beautiful churches and ceremonies (stained-glass, statuary, paintings, mosaics; flowers, candles, incense, ritual garb).

Spouse actually considered converting to Catholicism, after we met, somewhat for the above reasons. (Later, the authoritarianism, and especially the cover-up with the priests, decided hir against it.)

[Laiima]

I recently read a book about keeping Shabbat, which was of interest not because I want to take up the practice, but because I was interested in the philosophy behind it, and how it plays out tangibly. And there seemed to be a lot to recommend it.

(I have not known many Jewish people in my life, but I did have a boss who kept Shabbat.)

[Izzy]

@Rakka: Oh, awesome! Thank you for posting that.

@Alsafi: I'd forgotten about the "gift" sacrifice, and good point. That one calls to mind the mostly-secular custom of "pouring one out" for an absent or dead friend when you're drinking with your other buddies.

Low v. high church: I wonder if it's entirely coincidental, now, that most of my Christian geeky friends are Episcopalian or Unitarian. :)

I grew up going to both Presbyterian and Catholic services--well, as much as I went to anything--and while I now am much closer to the Presbyterian doctrine in most respects, the Catholic services were much more symbolically interesting. (Although I am not thrilled with changing wedding vows from "in sickness and in health" to "in good times and in bad". Ugh. Or with what seems to be the Mandatory Boston Catholic Wedding Song, "God Bless This Couple," which has to be sung in its entirety during an already-two-hour Mass while certain of the couple's cousins try not to fidget and wish Mom weren't quiiiite so good at the guilt tripping.)

But then, I suspect a number of people who were/are low-church Christianity might have different opinions, or know about some symbolism that I managed to overlook, or something.

[Laiima]

@Rakka, that was wonderful - thanks! Suomenusko seems to have a lot in common with Romuva, the pre-Christian Lithuanian religion. I've had to try to imagine what Baltic mythology would be like without the patriarchal whitewashing, which insists the gods are much more important than the goddesses.

In my experience with Medeine, in particular, zie is not fixed as female, although she is known as a goddess of the forest. I get the sense hir gender identity is quite fluid. I really like that. In fact, I've thought of looking for other gods with fluid gender identities, because that helps me recognize gender diversity, and be more inclusive in my thinking about real people I might meet.

[Lonespark]

Re Low and High Church:

To some extent I think folks drawn to mystery and ecstasy and raised Low Church look for those things elsewhere. I think I know of, say Presbyterian Masons (If that's totally a contradiction in terms I'm sorry for being confused) or Elks and of course the military offers a lot of pagan-ish traditional ceremony in many contexts. The non-Pagan folk I know who (outside of church) pour drinks for the Beloved Dead, the Unknown Soldier and Those Left Behind But Not Forgotten are all military or ex-military...

[Ross]

I don't know if this is universally true, but in my experience, it seems like one of the pervasive incorrect conceptions people have of Paganism is that self-professed Pagans "don't really" believe the things they espouse. That is, I think that a lot of people think of Pagans as being rather like the earlier described "atheistic Jews" who don't actually believe in God, but practice the rituals anyway because the act of performing the rituals satisfies some need in them (For the RTC crowd, the assumption is usually that the particular need Pagans meet is "to give the finger to the Real True God" -- but I think the perception includes people who are not of that particular bent). There's a kind of cultural assumption that if you ask someone why they're a (insert particular pagan religion), the set of expected answers might be something like "These rituals are fun" or "it makes me feel connected to nature" or "it helps me relax" or something, but not "Because I believe in the truth of this set of supernatural premises"* -- only monotheists are allowed to use "I believe it because it's True" as their reason.

I don't know if that has any relationship with historical views, but I do recall back in college the professor in my Ethics class asserting that by Aristotle's time, if you were a cosmopolitan Greek, you didn't "really" believe in the hellenic gods in anything more than the most abstract of senses, but you still did the rituals because it was part of the shared cultural experience (Not sure if the professor was right or just didn't have a better answer to a question along the lines of "Well wait a second, based on what we learned of ancient greek religion, isn't this bit of Aristotle technically heretical?")

(* All that said, I was talking with an expat from London who had been living in Italy for some time, and he expressed surprise at the idea that Catholics, on balance "really" believed in God -- he'd always assumed that God was a kind of vestigial organ in Catholicism, and that modern catholics all just went through the motions as part of an appreciation for the art and architecture and history and pomp and circumstance. His mind was entirely blown by the idea that, with the possible exception of the clergy, anyone believed that stuff)

[Rakka Salminen]

Froborr: The Winter War and WW2. Until them the family structures were pretty much the same as in any other agricultural societies and the little rituals were kept alive. After that the industrialization really kicked off along with the change in the family structure, and only the "summer holiday traditions" of pouring beer to sauna's holder and midsummer love spells transferred to the now-30s generation. That and the preceding Age of Enlightenment seemed to do the largest damage to the living tradition, in my opinion. Not a history expert by any means.

Literata: in suomenusko the world tree is birch. Oak is apparently a Baltic loan, but birch is commonly held to be the world tree in Fennic tribes. Birch is also very common tree in the typical Finnish forest, while oaks only grow in the southern coast.

[Izzy]

@Ross: I've encountered similar sentiments among the Protestant side of my family. I mean, they'd probably all say they believed in God, if asked, but...one doesn't *talk* about that.

One goes to church (or expresses the intention of going to church, and regret that one just didn't make it this week) and celebrates Christmas and Easter and so forth, because that's What Is Done. And saying grace before dinner is fine, particularly on celebratory occasions. Nobody really talks about belief or God or Jesus, though. That would be...awkward. And uncomfortable.

In my more flippant moments, I've phrased the beliefs of Dad's side thusly: one believes in God, one has the appropriate cocktail before dinner, and one keeps up a good credit rating. But nobody gets too *enthusiastic* about any of the above, except for that one uncle everyone tries to avoid at Christmas.

[Lonespark]

We are talking about gender-shifting/gender unspecified gods, and ealier we were talking about the Moon, so...

I have struggled to find a relationship to the Moon as a Heathen. Sunna I know and love. I have honored her in public rituals, and in the offhand "Hail Sunna, risen, glorious," when I'm faced with a particularly awe-inspiring sunrise. (Which would be all sunrises, mostly, since I'm rarely awake then.) But Mani remained a bit of a cipher.

I read some essays where Heathen folk said they related more to the moon as female, because yeah, he's "The Man in the Moon," but that twenty-eight day(ish) cycle is hard to ignore. And that kind of just made everything more twisty in my brain...But then the other day I was thinking about how Moon and Night seem more liminal; Sun defines day, and the calendar, and the seasons, and is so measurable and reliable, though of course still unpredictably powerful... But Moon weaves in and out of that ordered time, adding dimensions to it. A full-moon night is different from a moon-dark night, and Moon is involved with lots of other complex, important stuff like tides and the specific concentrations of different elements on Earth and so forth... (Not to mention that whole nefarious plot involving Admiral Zhao...)

So now I've come to think that with a being of such Mystery, gender would pretty much be beside the point. To a certain extent I feel that way about most gods and wights. But when liminality is an important part of a spirit's Being, fluidity and defying conventional definitions become yet more important. So I think I'm gaining a conception of Mani as a possibly-male spirit deeply connected with cycles that effect women and can be used to connect with mysteries of the Divine Feminine. Maybe. My understanding is a work-in-progress at this point.

[Froborr]

@Rowen: Though I myself am a semi-practicing atheist Jew, I was Bar Mitzvah'd Orthodox, and my rabbi was very, very into Qabalah. I asked him once how he reconciled science, the Genesis account of creation, and the Zohar's account, which mutually contradict.

He gave an answer similar to yours: The Zohar's account is the *spiritual* origin, the Genesis accoung is the *mythical* origin, and the scientific account is the *material* origin. They are, for him, three different perspectives on the same events.

@Ross: Funny, that's what I thought about Christians for a long time: There were the crazy RTC fundie Fred Phelps-style Christians (though I don't think I'd heard of Phelps at this point, plenty of his ilk were available), and there were people who went through the motions for cultural reasons but obviously didn't *really* believe in it, or they'd be just like those crazy fundies.

Then again, apparently when I was 7 I answered a question about my family's religion with "Oh, we don't believe in God. We're Jewish." So apparently I've always had some difficulty believing that others believe.

Huh. You know, my parents started making me go to Hebrew School not long after that comment. I've never before considered the possibility that there was a causal relationship.