Managing the discussion

 

It's been over a week since Froborr's controversial 'The Problem of Proselytizing' appeared on the Slacktiverse, and repercussions are still going around the Internet. One of the unfortunate consequences is that we've seen an unusual amount of trolling, including some really vile and misogynistic language. To avoid this being overly distressing to various readers of our board, TBAT has had to keep an almost constant eye on things and add trigger warnings to and/or ROT13 the most abusive remarks as fast as we could, but this has been time-consuming to the point where it's seriously interfering in our lives.

We cannot sustain this pace, so we're going to have to change tack. We need to get our lives back, but we don't want to shut out free speech either. This is the closest we can get to a solution:

The posts where most of the trolling has taken place are 'The Problem of Proselytizing' and 'Hello to anyone who's clicked over from Pharyngula.' At midnight on Saturday February 4, we will be closing comments to those threads as well as 'Board Post, February 2 2012.' Anyone who wishes to continue discussing can do so here; any visitors or trolls who appear in other threads to discuss Froborr's piece should be requested by whoever spots them first to move their discussion over here.

However, fair warning: this thread will not be moderated. Since regrettably few of the visitors have managed to avoid descending into insults and invective and we can't keep on top of it for ever, we are simply going to have to declare this whole thread under the warning that it may very well contain triggering material. We advise anyone who's feeling vulnerable to err on the side of caution.

Also, Froborr plans to write a clarification of his position, which we hope to publish in the next few days. This will be footnoted on the original piece; any discussion of it to be held here, please.

We realise these are unusual measures and we're sorry to anyone who feels shut out of the discussion by the lost guarantee of monitoring. This is a compromise, and about the best we can come up with.

We advise people who do participate in this thread not to feed the trolls.

---

 

The Board Administration Team
(hapax, Kit Whitfield and mmy)



Comments

[The Board Administration Team]

We've put this announcement in the comments rather than the post because we think it'll raise fewer flags to any trolls looking for references to PZ Myers on Google; however, we do now have confirmation that the two comments attacking Froborr posted here were, in fact, by Myers himself. For anyone interested, this is the correspondence we held with him on the subject, reproduced with the permission of Dr Myers, Froborr and the TBAT authors:

The emails:

From us to PZ:

Subject: Checking to make sure someone isn't posting "as" you

Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:13:33
Text: Someone posted using your name a short while ago on a thread at /The
Slacktiverse/ (http://slacktivist.typepad. com/slacktivist/.) Since
people have been known to "spoof" you in an attempt to embarrass you we
are hoping to verify whether this poster is the "real" you or someone
claiming to be you.

The ip address is right but as you know it isn't that difficult to spoof
ip addresses.

TBAT

From PZ to us:

Subject: Yes, that was me
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 12:32:57
Text: I left two comments on that repulsively inane post by Froborr or whatever.

From us to PZ:

Subject: Re: Yes, that was me
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012
Text: Since members of our community asked that we verify it was actually "you" do we have your permission to quote your email on the board?

From PZ to us:

Subject: Re: Yes, that was me
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 1
Text: Of course.

[burgundy]

I'm glad you're doing this. I've been amazed at the amount of work that TBAT has been doing, and it seemed impossible to keep it up long-term while balancing other obligations. This will eventually pass, and people will move on to other things.

[Timothy (TRiG)]

You know what? I disagreed with Froborr's original article, and would have welcomed the chance to have a sane discussion about it. Unfortunately, I was busy at the time. Now that I have a chance to catch up, the whole thing has been taken over by vile and disgusting trolls.

Thanks for nothing, trolls!

You'd think that someone from FreeThoughtBlogs would be able to have a discussion without descending immediately into mockery and misogyny, but apparently not.

Bah!

TRiG.

[Izzy]

Nice to see how Myers thinks the "marketplace of ideas" should work, there.

[Ross]

Is anyone else disappointed that the Real PZ Meyers couldn't come up with anything better than the same damned grade school mockery that most of the other recent visitors fell into? I didn't expect respect from him, but I was kinda hoping he'd be (1) clever, and (2) as close an approximation of a human being as you can be when you're the sort of person who can say things like "Your views are wrong so I don't have to pay you the basic respect due other human beings"

[Izzy]

@Ross: Yeah, I'm with you.

On the other hand, thinking too well of people seems to be a thing I'm doing these days.

[burgundy]

I haven't wanted to comment on the Meyers comments, because the outside attention we've been getting is bad enough already, and I don't want to risk making it worse by saying anything about the Great PZ (whose writing I have often really enjoyed.)

Which is a problem all on its own - it's very hard for episodes like this not to have a chilling effect, even with all the great work that TBAT is doing, even with the community coming together, even with me not really having triggers or being personally upset by even the worst of the trolls. It's just tiring, and I find myself not wanting to deal with more of it.

[Froborr]

@Ross: Eh, I've been reading his blog for years (the articles, at any rate; this is the only place where I habitually read comment threads), and this is his usual response to accommodationism.

Ever seen that Emo Philips bit about running into a guy about to jump off a bridge? It's a little like that, I think.

[Kirala]

Ever seen that Emo Philips bit about running into a guy about to jump off a bridge? It's a little like that, I think.

*is amused at the mental image of an atheist using the term "heretic" as it is used in aforementioned routine*

Actually, I can't not link to it - with the appropriate TW: ableist and insulting language in this otherwise beautifully perfect routine.

[Froborr]

Thanks, Kirala. YouTube is blocked at work, so I couldn't link it myself.

[Piero]

Timothy said:

"You know what? I disagreed with Froborr's original article, and would have welcomed the chance to have a sane discussion about it."

I know most of you will ignore this comment, but for those who still have a sliver of sanity left, I'll say this:

This site is a self-described "community," i.e. a fortified bastion of insider jokes and winks. You are reluctant to engage in public discourse, and automatically classify disagreement as "trolling." It is not a healthy attitude, because you just reinforce your misconceptions and validate your prejudices,

Froborr's article was egregiously bad. I've read enough to tell what's worth reading and what's not. Forborr's piece belongs to the boottom of the barrel. I believe many of you saw this clearly, but were reluctant to criticize it in the terms it deserved because of your herd mentality. Ask yourselves whether you are as free and nice as you think to be.

Timothy is a liar. When i posted I reply to Froborr's rant, all he could come up with was an inane reference to copyright laws. He would not address the issue at hand. SO his desires to "have a sane discussion about it" is mere posturing.

After reading the comments thread, my impression is that you are a bunch of wankers. If you really want to keep your "community" isolated from the real world, I'd suggest you make registration a requisite to post, so that representatives of the sane half of the human race can ignore you altogether.

[Izzy]

TW: Rape, swearing, um, grievous self-inflicted physical harm?

@Piero: So, by your definition of public discourse, I should be open to a long debate with the guy on the T who's shouting about Jesus.

I'm failing to see how that's healthy.

I also don't see how "guys who come onto strange blogs swinging their dicks and insulting everyone aren't worth listening to" is a prejudice that I *shouldn't* validate. I mean, except insofar as it doesn't really need validating: I'm not going to examine my prejudice against gargling drain cleaner anytime soon, either.

I don't think I'm nice, Bucky. I've never claimed to be. I've never wanted to be. Am I free? Well, and I don't think you and your buddies get this, most human interactions require certain limitations on freedom if you're not going to be a giant asshat. I choose to be here; therefore, I choose to post according to certain standards. Within those standards--which include things like "not using misogynist language" and "not insulting everyone with different belief systems"--I feel plenty free to disagree with people.

If I can't make my point without resorting to threats of rape, self-Godwining, insulting most of the world, or otherwise being an asshat, either my point doesn't hold up well or I'm not the best person to be making it.

[Izzy]

Also? Don't tell me what I am and am not "reluctant to do". I don't think your leaders would be really impressed by your claims to have psychic powers, particularly not ones that receive through the Internet.

...actually, "Internet Psychic" would be a good definition of a certain kind of asshat.

[AnaMardoll]

It's just tiring, and I find myself not wanting to deal with more of it.

Offers *hugs*?

I understand, I really do. But I'm grateful to Froborr for writing the article and TBAT for publishing it. I'd feel the same way whether it was Christians showing up to yell at us, or Muslims, or Wiccans, or any other group vesting in proselytization over the listener's wishes.

All these comment threads have just reinforced that a good number of people out there have nothing but contempt for the concept of consent.

[Timothy (TRiG)]

Piero,

My response to your article was not "inane". It was merely a remark that reposting Froborr's entire article without his permission is (a) blatantly illegal and (b) a good demonstration that you're a self-entitled asshat who thinks you have the right to do whatever you want with other people's writing. In other words, you're not worth engaging with because you're not actually interested in reasonable debate. You're interested in showing off how smart you are. Yes. Good boy. Go and be smart on your own blog.

TRiG.

[Nick Kiddle]

//You are reluctant to engage in public discourse, and automatically classify disagreement as "trolling."//

No, we classify trolling as trolling. Disagreement we classify as disagreement. I understand how you might be confused, given that you've not shown any familiarity so far with methods of expressing disagreement other than trolling, but being a soft-hearted accommodationist I cherish the hope that you will eventually work it out.

[piero]

@Izzy:

"@Piero: So, by your definition of public discourse, I should be open to a long debate with the guy on the T who's shouting about Jesus"

Has he ever posted here? If so, you should respond in an appropriate manner (for example, you could call him a wanker and tell him to fuck off).

"If I can't make my point without resorting to threats of rape, self-Godwining, insulting most of the world, or otherwise being an asshat..."

Can you quote my threats of rape, please? I do not know what "self-Godwining" means; is that an inside joke too? Am I an asshat? I suppose so, but only when I reply to other asshats.

"... either my point doesn't hold up well or I'm not the best person to be making it."

Both. But the second option rings truer. In fact, I'd say you are not the best person to be making any point at all, unless you are a double agent.

[Kirala]

Piero - "Godwining" is a term I thought was widespread on the Internet (at least, I was well familiar with Godwin's Law well before I came here), but generally it means using Nazi Germany as an analogy for anything which isn't already inextricably connected with Nazi Germany, and it is implied that when this happens, the person to make the analogy somehow loses and then rational discourse on the subject is likely destroyed. Because Nazi analogies are horribly overused and misused and really should not be used except as an absolute last resort.

Self-Godwining would be destroying your own argument, I suppose? But it's not like "self-Godwining" is a term I've seen in use here; I suspect Izzy coined it for the situation, and I'd take a wild stab it means "destroying your own arguments' credibility through overuse of Nazi analogies".

[piero]

@Timothy:

The evidence is there for anyone to see. Just go to the comment section of holimionism.com: you did not engage my arguments, but put forward a ludicrous claim of copyright infringement. You can claim that your response was not "inane", but I'm afraid that's not for you to judge. We are not debating as Kindergarten kids, are we?

Am I entitled to do anything I want with other peoples's writing? Certainly not. I would not publish Froborr's rant in The Definitive Guide to Internet Crap without his permission, but citing him in the context of a critique is obviously fair use. By the way, you can copy and paste anything I write, even without attribution, because I don't care: I have a real job.

Am I not worth engaging? Probably not. But then, why do you engage me? Probably because you want to prove top yourself that you are smarter? Maybe you are. Your IQ may be 187, for all I care. The fact remains that you, like most people in this community, are a wanker.

[Kirala]

@Piero - Are you actually interested in engaging in discussion on the article? Because all I see here are lengthy rants about how you've been treated and the repeated use of insults. If you just wanted to get that out of your system before going back to your own space, I think you've done so. If you actually want to discuss the issues, what do you want to discuss?

[Sam]

I've been following this blog at this address for the past several years. I remember the first couple chapters of Fred's analysis of Left Behind being posted; I think I came in right when the main characters were first stepping over the bodies in the airport.

I think this is the point where I'm going to unsubscribe to my RSS feed for the Slacktiverse and just follow along over on Patheos. It really does seem like the Slacktiverse has disappeared in on itself, and is at serious risk of becoming the blog where anything that anyone believes is 100% A-OK and great and nobody has the right to tell them they're wrong.

When the headline articles are about how rational argument to change people's views is making them suffer unnecessarily and finishes by calling it "evil in one of its purest forms" I want to get off the merry-go-round. I want to go back to living in the fact-based community. I want to go back to the marketplace of ideas.

I wish you all the best.

[Kirala]

It's interesting, too, to me to see how many people think that our problem is with Froborr being criticized. The problem is the number of people doing so in a completely trollish manner. I and others - notably Kit, who's one of the admins - have expressed regret that this flamewar has denied us the chance to properly discuss our own reservations about the article. Every time we start to get to discussion-phase, another troll pops in and derails. Very frustrating.

[piero]

@Kiarala:

Thank you for the clarification. I was familiar with Godwin's law, but not with "self-Godwining." I'm not a native English speaker, so sometimes I'm thrown off on the wrong scent. I thought there was an "h" missing and he meant "God-whining", but it still din't make sense.

Anyway, I have not mentioned Nazis in any of my comments ever, so I fail to see the relevance. I'm not responsible for every stupid comment that might appear in any thread on this site, you know?

[kisekileia]

@Sam, you're rehashing the same arguments that have already been had in multiple comment threads throughout this site. Froborr is referring to proselytization, not to consensual debate, as has been made abundantly clear in many places. Please don't condescend to us in such an ill-informed manner.

[AnaMardoll]

I'm excited as to how many "I've been here since the very beginning and am leaving now over this" people we're meeting this week! A more cynical person might suspect that such a claim over the internet couldn't possibly be verified, but I believe it without reservation!

[piero]

@Kirala:

"If you actually want to discuss the issues, what do you want to discuss?"

As I said in the comment thread, I had to set up a blog in order to respond properly, because the comment thread was just a mishmash of inside jokes and winks which was not conducive to rational discussion.

You can find my reply in http://holismionism.wordpress.com/, and you are welcome to leave a comment.

[kisekileia]

Protip, Piero: If you want us to come visit your blog, you might want to try not insulting us when you make the invitation.

[AnaMardoll]

Trigger Warning: Ableism, Swearing

God, I know I'm going to hate myself in the morning, but I'll click over, and... fuck. Seriously? You're using ableist terms in the second fucking paragraph?

Yeah, I'm not going to engage with you. Fuck feeding trolls.

[Kirala]

@Piero - I haven't seen your other posts, so I wouldn't know what Izzy would be referring to. I do know that if you're trying to make posts in an area where there have been flamewars of late, it's wise to gauge what effect your words will have. So, no, you're not responsible for every stupid comment, nor any comment not your own - but it's smart to tread carefully. I'm a Christian who loves to discuss her faith when possible, but I'd use very different terms and a much more tentative stance if I was discussing with people who have just been exposed to a vile hate-spewing street preacher. I think it's fair for anyone to think before they speak in such a context.

[Mmy]

@AnaMardoll: A more cynical person might suspect that such a claim over the internet couldn't possibly be verified, but I believe it without reservation!

And I bet that the lurkers are supporting them in email as well!!!!

[AnaMardoll]

And I bet that the lurkers are supporting them in email as well!!!!

And they've taken us from their RSS feed! Reminds me of this:

http://dooce.com/2009/08/28/containing-capital-letter-or-two

It happens every single time I write something. Every. Single. Time. I am so in tune with human nature now that I've been dealing with it for eight and a half years that I can predict what someone will send me in an email in response to a word or sentence or paragraph that I've written that is totally and completely innocuous. At times I feel like an accidental puppeteer.

And the email inevitably ends with one of the following:

1) I AM DONE!

2) YOU'VE CROSSED THE LINE NOW!

3) CONSIDER YOURSELF REMOVED FROM MY RSS READER!

4) UNFOLLOW!

5) Do you have any naked pictures of yourself?

[Nick Kiddle]

//The fact remains that you, like most people in this community, are a wanker.//

Funny you should say that, because the person I've seen masturbating furiously all over someone else's space is actually you. I was even going to give you the same advice I would give my 6-year-old: masturbation is a normal and healthy impulse, but please do it somewhere private. The rest of us don't need to watch.

[Timothy (TRiG)]

I and others - notably Kit, who's one of the admins - have expressed regret that this flamewar has denied us the chance to properly discuss our own reservations about the article.

Yes, the article was intended to prompt discussion and debate, and fighting trolls as got in the way, somewhat.

you can copy and paste anything I write, even without attribution, because I don't care: I have a real job

And some people's real job is writing. Copyright law matters. Are you saying that your writing is licensed under CC0 1.0 Universal Public Domain Dedication or under WTFPL Version 2 or under some other license?

TRiG.

@kisekileia:
I don't want you to visit my blog. This is not a popularity contest. If you want to address a reply to Froborr's crap, then visit it. If you are happy reading Froborr's crap, then don't. I just set up a blog because replying in the comment thread was virtually impossible. As you can see, my reply to Froborr is the only post in that blog. I am interested in resoned debate, and this "community" actually hampers debate, so I had no option.

I don't tread on eggshells, usually. I assume I'm speaking to adults, and speak my mind. If an adult is traumatized by what I have to say, there are plenty of psychiatrists in the world. Do you think I care if someone calls me a wanker in an internet comment thread? I have a life.

[Timothy (TRiG)]

I assume I'm speaking to adults

And adults with PTSD don't exist. Got you. Tell me, do you enjoy your little world?

TRiG.

[MercuryBlue]

Piero, for so I assume the anon at 6:09 to be, if you don't want to be here, then go the hell away.

[Sam]

@kisekileia: I don't think it was anything like clear in that article, nor do I think there is a drawable distinction between the two. I read in that article a clarion call to a right to invincible ignorance. Maybe I misread it (both past and present tense, I just carefully reread it) but that's what comes across to me, and that reinforced a trend that the Slacktiverse has increasingly been moving towards in my eyes: the underlying principle that all beliefs are good and should be applauded, and that criticism is at best uncouth and at worst actively wrong. I apologize if I rehashed or condescended but I wanted to give you my personal experience and viewpoint and had not read the comment threads on the previous posts (which I think you will agree are pretty painful to page through if you were not there all along). If I did the wrong thing by sticking my oar in, and I should have just shut up and left quietly... well, I apologize for that too.

@AnaMardoll, Mmy: If you want to call me a liar, please just come out with it and call me a liar. Tell me "you are lying, you have not been here for the years of Fred worrying about trailer-home owners not owning their land, the years of Meta-Hattie, and the years of all the comments from hapax and Kit, you weren't here when the big blowup happened over the move to Patheos and we didn't know if that site owner was censoring the comments." I'll shrug and I won't be able to convince you, because you are sure that I am a liar writing in bad faith. Also, clearly the lurkers are not supporting me in email, because I am the lurker.

[piero]

My real job is not writing. I don't care what anyone does with what I post on the Internet. Maybe Froborr's real job is writing: in that case, I'd recommend some vocational counselling.

Stop throwing acronyms at me: I don't know what they mean, and I'm not interested in finding out. Besides, it just confirms that you are a wanker, and have not been able to go past the anal-retentive stage. Oops, sorry, I should have added a trigger warning. Nah, not really.

[Kirala]

@Froborr, if you're around - would you object to my trying to write an article in response to yours, wherein I express my agreements/disagreements (and probably more the latter)? Maybe we could thereby revisit the topic with less hair-trigger stuff.

@TBAT, if any of you see this: is there any chance whatsoever you'd be willing to risk publishing such an article?

I mean, in ordinary circumstances, I'd just do the submission process, but I figure in this case I'd want clearance before getting started.

[Timothy (TRiG)]

Ah, and there I thought the WTFPL would please you. It is one of my regrets that I have been unable to track down a copy of WTFPL Version 1.

TRiG.

[kisekileia]

Piero, you must be abysmally ignorant about psychology. Firstly, PTSD is a widely used term that anyone who has read anything about, say, rape survivors or combat veterans should be familiar with. Secondly, Freud's stages of development are, for the most part, no longer considered authoritative. You're making a fool of yourself.

[cjmr]

I guess that gets Sam back to 2009-ish at least...

[MercuryBlue]

TRiG: Well, I'm amused.

[Froborr]

@Kirala: I absolutely welcome you to do so, I would appreciate it greatly. If TBAT feels it would be a bad idea to publish, please e-mail it to me, I am always appreciative of constructive criticism.

Anyway, even if I did have an objection, under my own rules I've consented to attempts to change my mind on this topic. =)

[piero]

@MercuryBlue:

"Piero, for so I assume the anon at 6:09 to be, if you don't want to be here, then go the hell away."

Because this is a public-access forum. The solution is simple: make it a members-only forum. We'd all be better off: you, because you won't be challenged in your asinine in-house convictions, and the rest of the world because we won't have access to the asinine rants of the likes of Froborr.

Anyway, you shouldn't worry too much. As I said before, I have a real job, and my spare tiem is better invested in more satisfying ways. Besides, I've said all that really mattered. Bye bye, wankers.

[Timothy (TRiG)]

MercuryBlue: at least I pleased someone.

piero: door, hit, etc.

[AnaMardoll]

And adults with PTSD don't exist. Got you. Tell me, do you enjoy your little world?

And in the Perfect Atheist World, adults with religion won't exist either!

It's going to be so tidy.

[Nick Kiddle]

TW: PTSD, cursing, violent sexualised imagery

//If an adult is traumatized by what I have to say, there are plenty of psychiatrists in the world. Do you think I care if someone calls me a wanker in an internet comment thread? I have a life.//

I don't expect you to understand this, given how little you've demonstrated your ability to understand, but I have to get it out of my system. There are psychiatrists in the world, but they cannot work magic. I have been under the care of several, and I have faithfully taken the drugs they prescribed, and I am still vulnerable to all kinds of triggers. Strange as it may appear to a festering piece of shit like you, the after-effects of abuse linger for a long time. This does not make me, or any other person, less deserving of a voice in an online discussion.

And the implication that anyone who is hurt by having insults directed at them lacks a life?

[AnaMardoll]

@Sam, if you've honestly been following the comments on Fred's posts, I would think that the concept of an ecumenical community that isn't pro-proselytization wouldn't be shocking to you. I would also be surprised to hear you say that Patheos is MORE welcoming to atheists than a place that says "we won't try to convert you if you don't try to convert us". But takes all kinds, I guess.

[MercuryBlue]

Yes, because driving away potential visitors with interesting things to say is exactly what the Slacktiverse is all about.

On the other hand, people who are annoyed that one of our number criticized one of their number and who consequently insist on insulting us can [anatomically improbable violent imagery redacted].

[Anonymous]

@Trig: I liked it too!

@kisekileia:

"Piero, you must be abysmally ignorant about psychology"

No I'm not. I'm fully aware of what PTSD stands for (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder), even though my mother tongue is Spanish. Which is more than I could say about the posters in this blog, because I'm pretty sure few of them would know what SIDA stands for. Languagism, anyone?

In any case, you are barking uo the wrong tree: I was replying to Timothy and his never-ending string of copyright-related acronyms.

[Nick Kiddle]

If TBAT think that last sentence of my last post crossed a line, please delete it. I am too angry and frightened to judge for myself what's appropriate.

[Wysteria]

Piero loses a point on his flounce for not sticking it.

[Timothy (TRiG)]

... which were provided with accompanying links, this being the raison d'être of HTML.

[MercuryBlue]

síndrome de inmunodeficiencia humana?

And kisekileia's point was, PTSD is a real thing that exists in this world, and some people here have it, and you're not behaving very respectfully towards those people.

Also, please remember to sign your comments.

[Timothy (TRiG)]

And I'm guessing Síndrome d'Immunodeficiència Adquirida.

Yes?

TRiG.

@Nick Kiddle:

Thank you for your kind words. I've no doubt psychiatrists have failed with you, as they have with me. But I don't go around exhibiting my illnesses and shortcomings as a badge of honour.

I love you too.

[Timothy (TRiG)]

Is there anything that can technically be done to block nameless comments? It makes it very hard to follow a conversation.

TRiG.

[kisekileia]

@Piero: Nobody is "exhibiting [their] illnesses and shortcomings as a badge of honour". They are asserting that this community does a good thing by considering the needs of those who have PTSD, which is true.

[The Board Administration Team]

To the poster at 6:34pm who posted without using a name and whose comment begins:

@kisekileia:"Piero, you must be abysmally ignorant about psychology"

In future enter a username before commenting. If you don't a tired, grumpy member of TBAT will either edit in a name* or just delete the comment.

*not promising WHAT name.

[AnaMardoll]

@Wysteria, here is an internet. LOL.

[piero]

@Timohty:
"And I'm guessing Síndrome d'Immunodeficiència Adquirida."

Close enough! Congratulations!

Just replace the "d'" by "de". We don't use apostrophes in Spanish. Also, "Inmu...", not "Immu..." Finally (but this is nitpicking), "Síndrome", not "Sindrome" (accent mark on the i)

[The Board Administration Team]

@Timothy (TRiG): Is there anything that can technically be done to block nameless comments? It makes it very hard to follow a conversation.

Just issued a warning about that. Such posting behaviour at best inhibits discourse and at its worst is rude.

[Wysteria]

@AnaMardoll Do you know, I've never gotten an internet before? This is my very first one. ^___^ Thank you!

[AnaMardoll]

Never before? How can that be, as I love your comments? I must give them out more often!

[AnaMardoll]

Also, I don't know how to address this without feeding the troll, but I agree with Nick on everything and I want to offer him hugs. Nick? *hugs*

[piero]

@The Board Administration Team:

"To the poster at 6:34pm who posted without using a name and whose comment begins:"

I always fill the name field with the name "piero" (my real name, by the way) and the Email address field with my real gmail address. If your software is faulty, do something about it. For a start, you should discard anonymous posts, yet I've seen plenty of them on this and other threads.

[Nick Kiddle]

TW: Cursing, metaphors of physical injury

//Thank you for your kind words. I've no doubt psychiatrists have failed with you, as they have with me. But I don't go around exhibiting my illnesses and shortcomings as a badge of honour.//

Fuckyoufuckyoufuckyoufuckyoufuckyou.

By all means, assume psychiatrists have "failed" because I'm still ill. I suppose doctors in Casualty "fail" if their victims emerge alive but with scars in your world. I'm not exhibiting anything as a badge of honour; I'm pointing out that I am a person with special needs that a small amount of thought can accommodate. What's more, you clearly *are* exhibiting your shortcomings as far as I can see: being a festering jackhole is a pretty big shortcoming.

[Wysteria]

@AnaMardoll I am shy! This is the most involved I've been on a forum that isn't a RPG in ever. So far it makes me very happy and I am learning a lot and actually thinking about what I think about things, instead of what will make other people happy for me to think, and also privilege as it relates to me and all that other interesting-to-me stuff.

[Timothy (TRiG)]

not promising WHAT name

Oooh. I could suggest some. (I'm in an unusually snarky mood this this evening.) But others here would probably be far more inventive. You usually are.

TRiG.

[automaticdoor]

Several things:

1) piero is a troll. S/he is not making any sort of good-faith discussion. Please, everyone, can we stop engaging? It is not worth our time.

2) That said, I have one tiny thing of my own to add (hypocritically, I know) re: piero: Yes, we're super languagist here. I'm sure no one else here speaks a second language or is from a country where English is not the primary language. Absolutely no one. Nope! (PS, I was beaten to it, but I speak enough Spanish to get by, mostly in a health context actually, and I do know what SIDA stands for, thanks for asking!) Also, there is this magical thing called Google! Finally, Timothy provided links within the text to what those acronyms and abbreviations stood for, so you didn't even need to do any work. I was 99% sure you were trolling at that point, but that clinched it.

So, yeah, let's just stop now, okay y'all?

[Anonymous]

TW: somewhat graphic description of bodily harm in an analogy

Also, in case anyone cares, I have PTSD. I do not have a mental illness. What I am dealing with is not the mental equivalent of the lurgy. Instead, I have a mental injury. What happened to me was the mental equivalent of having every bone in my body broken. Not all of the breaks have healed -- some bones take longer to heal than others. When you break a bone, it is customary to put it into a cast to immobilise it so that it can heal. It is not customary to stamp on the broken limb or to poke it with sharp sticks. If I ask for a trigger warning, that is, if I tell you that you're standing on my broken foot, then get the fuck off my broken foot.

Some of these mental injuries have mostly healed, but the joints still get a bit sore when the weather's cold, you know?

[The Board Administration Team]

@piero: I always fill the name field with the name "piero" (my real name, by the way) and the Email address field with my real gmail address. If your software is faulty, do something about it.

Rank and utter nonsense (that the software is at issue) unless over 8 years of use and tens of thousands of comments it only fails when you are posting.

You are probably just posting too quickly and not checking that the fields have stayed filled in. Since it has happened three 3 in the last 44 minutes to you and to NO ONE ELSE IN YEARS -- I'm betting on you not being careful.

For a start, you should discard anonymous posts, yet I've seen plenty of them on this and other threads.

Yup, and each and every Anonymous poster has identified themselves to TBAT before posting as such. Not a problem at all.

[AnaMardoll]

@Nick, precisely. You are establishing boundaries and explaining board etiquette with reasons (Exhibit A: Self) and examples (same). You are pointing out vulnerabilities to help people who want to engage do so in a meaningful fashion. You are brave.

[Nick Kiddle]

*hugs Ana back*

I don't know how similar our experiences have been up to this point, but we're certainly being triggered in very similar ways by these [expletive deleted]s. You've said a lot that I completely co-sign, and I'm very touched that you feel similarly about my posts.

[AnaMardoll]

@Wysteria, well I'm glad you're here! And I love your icon. I find myself staring at it and wondering what hatched, LOL.

[Timothy (TRiG)]

All of which reminds me (no, I don't know why it reminds me, but it does) that I've been reading, and in post 64 of that conversation we get to Kit Whitfield's Bareback (Spoiler warning: I was complementary). My book reviews are very brief.

(I didn't get around to ranting at Kit Whitfield for keeping me up all night, did I? I was very tired, and wanted an early night, and just took a glance at the opening pages of Bareback, and somehow I didn't get to bed till gone seven in the morning, shortly after finishing the book. Luckily it was a Saturday night. Sunday was pretty much a write-off after that. I'll read it again properly some day.)

TRiG.

[Kirala]

@TRiG - It's nice when you can rant at the author and know the author will actually hear your rant, isn't it? Perhaps I should go pick up the book at my library tomorrow so I can refresh my memory re: rants I wish to give. (Probably mostly along the lines of SEQUEL NAOW, PLZ.)

[piero]

@automaticdoor:

1.I'm male, so you can refer to me as "he".

2. I'm definitely not a troll. I first came to this site to read what Froborr had to say about Greta Christina. I found the screed appalling, and tried to comment on it, but was soon submerged by a flood of in-house and irrelevant replies. Pie-crust, anyone?

3. What I've tried to say is that a tightly-knit community is the best way to ignore reality. You seem to be perfectly comfortable in your little niche, and always ready to jump on "intruders". It makes you no different from any other cult.

4. I cannot reasonably be expected to know what "triggers" a perfect stranger. I have problems of my own, like everybody else, but if I post on a public forum I do not expect everyone else to tread lightly, just in case s/he might "trigger" me. You know each other, and have learned what constitutes a trigger; I'm not an insider, and so I don't know. In cases such as this, the reasonable thing is to make the forum accessible only to members. Analogously, instead of complaining about anonymous posts, the technical staff should find a way of preventing their publication. It's not that hard.

5. Timothy resorted to copyright laws in a childish attempt to stifle debate. He has not been criticized by any member of this community; indeed, you have defended him by underlining the fact that he provided links explaininf the meaning of those acronyms. I find that even more childish (if possible) than Timothy's attitude.

6. When I referred to "languagism" I was not merely being facetious. If you are committed to being 100% politically correct, why do you exclude 70% of the world population from your site? Of course, it is impractical to translate every post into 180+ languages, so I don¿t blame ypu. I just want to draw attention to the analogy with your collection of "-isms". Has anybody with an IQ below 50, to your knowledge, ever posted in this forum? If not, why not? Is a moron (in the technical sense) not a person? Do you give a space to morons to post? If not, why not?

I'd wish you realized that reality is far more difficult to deal with than your platitudes would suggest.

[MercuryBlue]

I'd wish you realized that reality is far more difficult to deal with than your platitudes would suggest.

We all wish you'd realize the same.

[piero]

@MercuryBlue:

Interesting reply. Totally devoid of content, of course, but interesting nonetheless, because it clarifies the kind of minds that belong to this community.

[chris the cynic]

TRiG, I've been going back on forth about asking this because I don't feel comfortable talking about people behind their backs, even when it is on a public forum they can read if they so desire, but I'm going to ask anyway.

What made you think Benson was sending the misogynist trolls our way?

-

And in other news, my brain has turned to mush. I think I spent more than an hour trying to respond to Benson and I couldn't make the words come out right and so gave up. Apparently it was assumed that I was representing everyone*, and I have somehow given the mistaken impression that rot13 is a slacktiverse invention.

-

* Which means that, I guess, we as a community are primarily interested in explaining to people how to use rot13 and refuse to say whether TRiG was right or not without more information. I suppose my time as unintentional community spokesperson could have gone worse.

[storiteller]

To all of the folks saying "I'm a long time reader and I'm leaving":

I too am a long-time reader of Slacktivist. I started reading many years ago, so long ago that I remember takedowns by Jesu (was the subject of one due to some poor wording on my part) and her subsequent departure. (If you think the regulars are being harsh, you would wilt at one of her comments.) I only started commenting regularly during the change-over and don't do so tons, but am a loyal reader.

And with that, I can say that I am definitely staying here. I say that because I believe this place embraces a philosophy that can be summed up as such:
1) All people deserve to be respected because of the simple fact that they are people.
2) As such, all people deserve a place at the roundtable of ideas. They deserve to be listened to and engaged with so long as they are respectful to others.
I deeply believe in both of these statements and appreciate a place that does as well.

Now, this does not mean that all ideas deserve a place at the roundtable of ideas. If an idea is horrible or extremely hurtful, it is right to argue against that idea and throw it out of said roundtable. If a person keeps repeating that idea over and over again or finds other ways of fundamentally disrespecting others, it may be worth not allowing them to participate in said roundtable for a while. But to say that a place that fosters appreciates a diversity of ideas and dislikes the philosophy of eliminating that diversity entirely is being "oppressive" is ridiculous.

[storiteller]

Fosters and appreciates... stupid typos.

[Mmy]

@piero: Timothy resorted to copyright laws in a childish attempt to stifle debate. He has not been criticized by any member of this community

Since I can't read Timothy's mind I don't know why he chose to point out the relevant copyright laws -- as he explained a comment elsewhere was merely a remark that reposting Froborr's entire article without his permission is (a) blatantly illegal

This community has had many a "spirited discussion" over copyright laws however the company that hosts this blog and (I think) the company that hosts your blog have as part of their terms of service an agreement to attempt to abide by existing copyright law.

[Timothy (TRiG)]

What made you think Benson was sending the misogynist trolls our way?

A stupid brainfart for which I've already apologised in e-mail. Has it blown up on her blog? I should probably apologise there too. Bah.

TRiG.

[hapax]

I cannot reasonably be expected to know what "triggers" a perfect stranger.

Sure you can! *If* those "perfect strangers" helpfully provide a link in the top right corner of their blog labelled "Frequently needed explanations."

And wow! Sometimes, even if you decide to barge in a "perfect stranger"'s conversation without the basic courtesy of making sure you know what language they're speaking, they are polite enough to let you know.

Over and over again.

But golly darn it, caring about the people you're interacting with as if they were just as worthy of respect as you are is HAAAAARRRRDDD....

[Syzygis]

Wow, I can't believe I'm actually saying anything, but...

I've been lurking on this blog since a few months before Fred left. And for what it's worth? I have *more* respect for the members of this community now than I did before Froborr's post. And I had a lot of respect for them to start with.

(goes back to lurking)

[MercuryBlue]

Well, piero, you haven't paid attention to anything else anybody's said, so why should I waste effort writing out a thoughtful reply to anything you've said? And I still want to know why you're wasting effort on us when you clearly don't want to be here.

Though if you really want actual content in my replies, here.

I cannot reasonably be expected to know what "triggers" a perfect stranger.

Well, no. That's why you use trigger warnings on the common things--sexual assault, graphic violence, and suicidal ideation are the big ones that spring immediately to mind--and when you see someone use a trigger warning that's not one of the big obvious ones, you make a note of it and use it where necessary in future, and when someone points out that a comment should have had a trigger warning, you make a note of it and use it where necessary in future. You don't come in and sneer-quotes the concept of trigger warnings.

You are in fact behaving like someone with the privilege of never having been triggered in one's life. Knock it off. Or go away, like you keep saying you're longing to do.

Regarding anonymous comments: hapax can't log in to anything at work, and she's one of our mods. We cannot ban anon comments without banning her.

[Mmy]

@Sam: @AnaMardoll, Mmy: If you want to call me a liar, please just come out with it and call me a liar.

And if I had wanted to call you a liar I would have. Ana and I were laughing about how, when one runs a board, everyone tells you that they have been around forever and that the lurkers are supporting them in email.

If you are the same Sam (and I think you are) you took part in conversations about how to deal with spam last year and you had some interesting things to say about cauliflower.

[Kirala]

@Piero - I commented at your site nearly an hour ago and it's still "awaiting moderation". Do you have any idea why that is? I ought to go to bed soon, but I hate leaving a comment and running if there's a chance someone will want to respond to what I said.

[Ross]

I cannot reasonably be expected to know what "triggers" a perfect stranger.

That's true. If only there were something you could do, some ritual after you've strayed across a trigger you didn't know about.

I can think of two options:

Option 1 (We'll call this the "reasonable person" option): Repeat the following incantation: "Sorry about that. Didn't realize. I will do better in the future." and then do better in the future.

Option 2 (we'll call this the "Rectal Chapeau" option): Blame the victim, call their response unreasonable, mock their pain, and post a screed about how unreasonable it is that you should be expected not to barge into someone else's house and tread all over their toes.

You seem to have taken option 2. You should reconsider.

[The Board Administration Team]

Person who posted at 7:50 without filling in their name but by context appears to be piero.

If you want your comments to appear fill in your name properly. Otherwise any moderator who sees such unclaimed comments will delete them immediately.

[piero]

@Kirala:

I'm sorry. I'm new to blogging. In fact, I created the blog only to reply to Froborr in a less contaminated space.

Your comment has been approved and published.

[chris the cynic]

Has it blown up on her blog?

No. Not really. What happened on her blog was that in the same post she responded to that she indicated that she had no idea what rot13 was, I tried to be helpful by telling her about rot13.

Then it was assumed that I supported your accusation. Apparently what I don't denounce I must support. To which my response was that the reason I didn't say anything about it was that I didn't know enough to take a position on it, and pointed out that you were working on prior knowledge of her where I am not (thinking specifically of the fact that you're familiar with her commenting habits at the web comic you mentioned, though I didn't say that.)

And at that point more than one person responded to me, and that was about when my brain turned to mush.

I just checked and I see that you've already apologized over there. That's good, because it was definitely not the right thing for you to have done.

[piero]

@Ross:

That's precisely what I mean by "cult mentality." I intended to reply to Froborr's post, not to 2500 members of a community, I was unable to, because members of that same community started posting inside jokes and codes that made it impossible to have a rational discussion. I was only interested in replying to Froborr's podt, but it turned into a discussion of "-isms" and idiosyncratic manners.

As I said before, this is a sure way to isolate yourselves from the world of ideas, much as cults do.

I you don't want anyone to barge into your house, keep the door locked. Otherwise, deal with the unwanted visitors.

[tde]

TW Stupidity

Why are there not trigger warnings about comments that are stupid?

[MercuryBlue]

And for the fifteenth time, we like new people and new ideas. What we don't like is a deluge of new people with the same wrong idea.

[MercuryBlue]

tde: uh?