Managing the discussion

 

It's been over a week since Froborr's controversial 'The Problem of Proselytizing' appeared on the Slacktiverse, and repercussions are still going around the Internet. One of the unfortunate consequences is that we've seen an unusual amount of trolling, including some really vile and misogynistic language. To avoid this being overly distressing to various readers of our board, TBAT has had to keep an almost constant eye on things and add trigger warnings to and/or ROT13 the most abusive remarks as fast as we could, but this has been time-consuming to the point where it's seriously interfering in our lives.

We cannot sustain this pace, so we're going to have to change tack. We need to get our lives back, but we don't want to shut out free speech either. This is the closest we can get to a solution:

The posts where most of the trolling has taken place are 'The Problem of Proselytizing' and 'Hello to anyone who's clicked over from Pharyngula.' At midnight on Saturday February 4, we will be closing comments to those threads as well as 'Board Post, February 2 2012.' Anyone who wishes to continue discussing can do so here; any visitors or trolls who appear in other threads to discuss Froborr's piece should be requested by whoever spots them first to move their discussion over here.

However, fair warning: this thread will not be moderated. Since regrettably few of the visitors have managed to avoid descending into insults and invective and we can't keep on top of it for ever, we are simply going to have to declare this whole thread under the warning that it may very well contain triggering material. We advise anyone who's feeling vulnerable to err on the side of caution.

Also, Froborr plans to write a clarification of his position, which we hope to publish in the next few days. This will be footnoted on the original piece; any discussion of it to be held here, please.

We realise these are unusual measures and we're sorry to anyone who feels shut out of the discussion by the lost guarantee of monitoring. This is a compromise, and about the best we can come up with.

We advise people who do participate in this thread not to feed the trolls.

---

 

The Board Administration Team
(hapax, Kit Whitfield and mmy)



Comments

[Froborr]

*puts on Trek nerd hat*

Replicators are, pretty much, the reason why money is obsolete through most of the Federation. Since there is an effectively limitless supply of energy and you can make anything you want instantly as long as you have the plans, all goods are public goods.

As to why people work? Social pressure. For example, there is a DS9 episode where it turns out Bashir's father doesn't really do much--he's one of those people who is always having ideas, but never follows through on them or really does much of anything. He is still able to live perfectly well, travel, and his son is able to go to school and become a doctor, with no apparent barriers from the father's lack of work, but it is nonetheless seen as extremely embarrassing.

Finally, there is a (really *good*) DS9 episode that uses time travel to show a little bit of how the transition happened. Basically, society just didn't need everyone to work any more, which led to mass unemployment, which led to mass poverty, which led to riots, which drove people to try to come up with something new.

Is it feasible? Well, no, it's Star Trek. But still, somebody *did* imagine capitalism ending and manage to get it out into the mass consciousness.

[AnaMardoll]

Replicators are, pretty much, the reason why money is obsolete through most of the Federation. Since there is an effectively limitless supply of energy and you can make anything you want instantly as long as you have the plans, all goods are public goods.

Except that this doesn't work because it would completely bring down all other barter/coin systems. You want 20 gold pressed latinum bars for this? Here. *zap*

*insert handwave about how X substance can't be replicated*

[Wysteria]

Awesome! Somehow I managed to watch lots of the various shows without ever digging into 'wait, how'd that happen?' I should really watch DS9 sometime. I am extremely likely to enjoy any show involving space stations.

[gallantrose]

@sarah re: lactose/cheese

Many lactose intolerant people can, depending on their level of sensitivity, eat cheeses, because part of the cheesemaking process involves bacteria which consume the lactose (a sugar). In general, softer/fresher cheeses contain more lactose, and harder/aged cheese have less. Mozzarella is an interesting exception, a soft cheese with little lactose b/c it's made from the whey leftover from earlier cheesemaking.

This is also true of other cultured milk products, btw, like yoghurt, creme freche, kefir, etc. All basically just partially pre-digested milk. Yum!

[Rupaul]

@Will Wildman, thanks for clearing that up. I have to admit I'm not a very careful viewer of the various series, and I've seen next to none of the DS9 shows. Which brings me to ...

@Froborr, there must be an episode guide, I'm going to track that one down. It sounds fascinating. Norbert Wiener, the mathematician, predicted just this situation in the 1950's.

Ummm, "he's one of those people who is always having ideas, but never follows through on them or really does much of anything" hits too close to home :)

[Timothy (TRiG)]

Apparently Star Trek is a military dictatorship, and we know this definitively because there is no private transport. (Warning: The people involved in that discussion were also having rows on other subjects elsewhere, so it's not exactly friendly. Disclaimer: I have never seen Star Trek.)

TRiG.

[Ross]

@AnaMardoll: Yeah. That's how it works. Anyone who wants to play nice ends up losing capitalism. Those who want to keep it can't quite play nice with others. (And yeah. Latinum is not replicable. It's also difficult to work with in its natural state, so it's pressed into otherwise worthless gold.)

There's a neat fan-audio-drama set after a galactic catastrophe has greatly weakened the Federation, where one group desperately wants to reestablish capitalism, but the only way they can do so is by *genociding all the aliens*.

Say what you like about Trek worldbuilding, but "We don't use money and it all just works" actually is a lot *more sound* than any *other* future-economy I've ever seen, written down. Those tend to get all wrapped up in lots and lots of details that are broken in complex, subtle and ludicrous ways.

[L. David Wheeler]

Jason. What you're thinking, what's in your head -- or what I'm thinking or anyone else is thinking -- are IRRELEVANT to this discussion. They have no bearing. What is at issue are your actions here -- and your actions have shown a decided lack of sensitivity to few other than yourself.

I mean, c'mon, look over your comments in these threads -- and previous threads, if you want to get down to it. They're filled with all about how things make you feel, how distressed things make you, how you feel this and you think that and this makes you uncomfortable and that makes you angry -- but I don't see much of anything about other people's pain -- the people who need the trigger warnings you disdained or were injured by the trolls you defended. As another post-er noted, you noted that this thread left you shaking with anger -- well, other people have posted that the troll attacks have left them so traumatized that they've been shaking for three weeks.

You seem to be very concerned with people understanding you -- and hey, that's normal, almost everyone is. But you seem to be more concerned with people understanding you than you seem concerned with understanding other people -- and that's a problem.

And before you characterize this as an attempt at amateur psychoanalyzing, as you did Kit -- like Kit, I'm not making any speculation into your internal life or your thoughts. I'm going strictly by your actions here.

As the axiom goes: Intent. Ain't. Magic. Generally speaking, it ain't much of anything.

Again -- dude, you used to get this. Your actions here look to me to be a relapse to the way you interacted and interfaced when you first engaged with this board years ago. (So it's no surprise that you're meeting with the same response as you did then.) What's going on?

[Froborr]

@AnaMardoll: Yeah... latinum always struck me as pretty silly. Did the Ferengi just never come up with fiat currency?

[Froborr]

@Ross: Somewhere floating around the Internet is a paper on the economics of interstellar trade, which basically concludes "No. Can't happen."

I seem to recall it's by Paul Krugman, actually.

[Ross]

@Froborr: Apparently, the Ferengi are kinda stupid. Possibly "Driven stupid by their greed". Rom, the resident "Ferengi who adheres to human values and therefore is considered inherently superior to the rest of his race", once notes that humanity developed capitalism *and then gave it up* in only a couple of hundred years, while the Ferengi economic systems had taken *thousands* of years to evolve, and he tries to persuade his fellows that this is why Humanity Is Better, though they dismiss him for it. It's not that they don't understand the concept of a fiat currency; they just don't have any *faith* in it.

It's like an entire civilization of Ron Pauls.

[Wysteria]

@Froborr: This? *reads* This is awesome.

[Certainly Sylvia]

@Froborr

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=interstellar%20trade%20paul%20krugman&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CDQQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.standupeconomist.com%2Fpdf%2Fmisc%2Finterstellar.pdf&ei=P2M1T-HLLq6ZiAfmpOiPAg&usg=AFQjCNEtkae5sOxD-FK22GsSJwmbGHm7tg&sig2=JiVPFdVB-d9cd40MNb-RaA&cad=rja

[Lonespark]

RuPaul -
I'm pretty sure the episode is Sanctuary, parts I and II. I rewatched it after Hurricane Katrina and that was freaky.

And now I keep thinking of the episodes with Grandpa Sisko and his restaurant in New Orleans and Starfleet trying to impose a police state...DS9 comes across, at its best, at least, to me, as Star Trek: It's More Complicated Than That.

[Froborr]

There's a neat fan-audio-drama set after a galactic catastrophe has greatly weakened the Federation

While I loved Deep Space 9, it was pretty clear to me that the Federation was in *deep* trouble at the end of it. Between internal forces workign to subvert every ideal it was founded on and the crippling costs of a series of ugly wars, I really don't see how it could continue existing for more than a few decades.

Sounds pretty familiar, actually...

[Will Wildman]

While I loved Deep Space 9, it was pretty clear to me that the Federation was in *deep* trouble at the end of it. Between internal forces workign to subvert every ideal it was founded on and the crippling costs of a series of ugly wars, I really don't see how it could continue existing for more than a few decades.

Somewhere out there must be a fanfic in which Voyager misses all shortcuts, the ship actually does arrive back in Federation space 70 years later, and finds they are the only ones still clinging to the ideals of the now-devastated utopia they left generations earlier.

No, wait, I just figured out where Andromeda came from. Never mind.

[Mmy]

@Jason: If you are still around reading.

I believe that you owe me a direct and unequivocal apology. Not a "I'm sorry if your feelings were hurt" apology but a "I'm a sincerely sorry for have acted, spoken and written in the way I did. And I am sorry because it was offensive and you (mmy) were right to take offense."

I believe that you owe Kit a similar direct and unequivocal apology.

I believe that you owe hapax a similar direct and unequivocal apology.

You made offensive (mis)statements about things that we had done on the board. You referred to attempts to correct your misstatements as "tirades." You (by implication) accused all of the members of TBAT of lying.

You put Kit into a no-win situation in which anything at all that she wrote would be chalked up as yet another "bad thing Kit did."

You were dismissive and thoughtless of every single person in this community who has a trigger and you were dismissive of all the people who respect the triggers of others.

Unless the next thing you post to this board is a complete apology to each of the people you have offended then I will not respond to what you write.

And if you cannot cannot stomach the idea of apologizing to me the very least you can do is apologize to the person you have been most rude and offensive to in this conversation -- Kit.

[Lorien]

..and please stop trying to psychoanalyze me. You are still telling me that you know better than I do what I am thinking and that is insulting.

Honestly Jason, if someone as intelligent and thoughtful as Kit was telling me what I was thinking I might force myself to shut up and listen. Of course it might be different for you, but for me, I often act without actually *thinking* about it, and often am rather shocked when someone (that I respect, let's add that caveat in here) steps in to say "it looks to me from your actions like you are feeling this", because more often than not they're *right*. Now obviously that might not be this situation, but it's worth taking into consideration that it's not necessarily as insulting as you think.

It's also not necessarily psychoanalysis to say "In situations similar to this people who behave like you are behaving have been revealed to think X". That's a pretty normal extrapolation to make, actually, as far as I can tell.

[Deird, who is behind the conversation by several hours]

On the subject of gluten-free stuff...

My cousin recently got married, and had very carefully made sure that there would be a gluten-free table of food at the afternoon tea. My mum was providing some of it, and I was going along to help set up.

Anyway, post-wedding I rush back to the afternoon tea area to get out dips from the fridge, and get there just in time to see someone walk over to the table with big GLUTEN FREE TABLE signs all over it and put down a plate of dip. "Um... is this the gluten-free dip?" I ask. And she gazes at me in puzzled incomprehension, and says "Dunno." Then she walks back to the kitchen, content in a job well done.

!!!

My mum had spent ages carefully finding gluten-free food, keeping it away from the gluteny food (so far as to use different knives to guard against cross-contamination, and an ENTIRELY SEPERATE bench in the kitchen) and this woman was about to cheerfully poison a whole lot of guests because she just didn't care enough to work out that "gluten-free" actually meant something.

So glad I got there in time...

[sarah]

My mom's side of the family has so many different allergies (gluten, lactose) and diets (vegans, vegetarians, eats fish but not other types of meat, tries to restrict the amount of meat they eat) that when we were cooking for the holidays, we tried to make a Venn diagram (because some of them overlap). I worked on it for a while and then my brother the engineer came over, looked at it, and said, "There are too many categories!"

[AnaMardoll]

@Deird, oh my god.

@General Board: Is this an education thing that people do not understand "food allergies" are a Real Thing? (It took YEARS before Mom came around to the idea that maybe I wasn't a picky eater so much as food intolerant.) Is the problem that fat-shaming and DIET CULTURE is so endemic in our society that we just assume that "X-free" is some kind of vanity thing and that can be safely set aside for a wedding? (<-- Totally problematic statement in itself.) Or that "no meat and dairy" is some silly religious superstition and therefore not worth respecting? Is is a Rape Culture "I do not respect your consent because I do not respect you" thing?

@AnaMardoll: Yeah... latinum always struck me as pretty silly. Did the Ferengi just never come up with fiat currency?

Well, the silliest thing to me is that they're a serious enough power that the Federation has to occasionally deal with them. Also, I read "fiat currency" as a currency made up of fiat cars, which just reminds me how much I HATE HATE HATE their latest Superbowl commercial.

[jemand]

@Ana, my ex sent me a link to that fiat commercial. Apparently he really likes it even though he didn't even watch the superbowl! I didn't particularly know how to respond, he's usually a nice guy and we separated amicably and still talk a lot. Like, he just sent it said he wanted a fiat, it wasn't to bait me or anything, he literally didn't see anything wrong with it.

But damn. Every once in awhile even someone who struck me as a decent man in my life disappoints me with appreciation of something really sexist, or a blind spot big enough to drive a truck through he's just totally uninterested in acknowledging.

Makes me sad every time.

[sarah]

@Ana: Maybe? But I remember when my cousin started getting sick from eating dairy, and everyone in my family caught on pretty quickly. She was sick for a while before they figured it out. That's my family, though. Can't speak for the rest of the world.

[AnaMardoll]

@jemand, wowsers. I didn't watch the Superbowl, but I saw the commercial the next day while waiting for my oil change. My brain literally went:

WOMEN ARE NOT CARS DARK WOMEN ARE NOT TEMPESTUOUS SEDUCTRESSES SCREW YOU FIAT oh this must be the superbowl commercial people were talking about SCREW YOU FIAT

That is a direct transcript.

[Froborr]

@Ana: I dunno. My brother is that way about food allergies, too. I am allergic to coconut. I do not go into anaphylactic shock or anything, but coconut milk or flesh (milk moreso) causes me to spend hours in agony in the bathroom. My brother once outright told me he doesn't believe I'm really allergic, because he "Doesn't believe in purely digestive allergies," meaning that unless it kills you or you break out in hives, it's not "really" an allergy and completely psychosomatic. Apparently, even though I can prove I have eaten coconut without knowing it and gotten sick, it's all in my head. Personally, I just file it under "Some people are assholes, and most people are assholes about something," and carry on in my usual cynical, pessimistic way.

Fiat currency is money not backed by anything concrete, but rather by the economy of the issuing nation. Terry Pratchett's Making Money is pretty much the best explanation of it ever, with the added advantage of being an excellent story and very funny.

[jemand]

Plus WTF cappuccino froth like you are not being subtle at all no you just aren't.

[AnaMardoll]

@Froborr, thank you. I always love learning new terms for things, though I should have looked it up myself. But I never pass up an opportunity to complain about the Fiat commercial.

Re: your brother, wow. Today is one of those days where I feel like I learn that I don't understand people as well as I'd previously thought.

[jemand]

Oh, yeah, that reminds me of a conversational exchanged the last time I was back visiting parents/grandparents.

I said how I could tolerate small amounts of mango juice in mixes if it hadn't been labeled well. I was making the point that I'm super thankful for this because it makes managing my allergy so much easier.

My dad decided the fact that I said I would be "ok" if I "didn't know" it had a little bit of mango in the juice meant my entire allergy was psychosomatic.

I stood up for myself this time (SUPER HARD, goes against SO MUCH CONDITIONING) and when I said I was offended and that such a suggestion was disrespectful, he backpedaled to something like, "Oh, that's just what it SOUNDED like you meant, haha, wasn't trying to be serious."

Yeah. Some people are assholes about allergies.

I don't even usually consider myself allergic or worry at all about it most of the time, though, because mango is *such* a rare food product to come across in quantity or hidden, and I can usually tolerate small amounts. Of course, I also have the same kind of allergy to cashews, but even more mild. Amounts that I would run across most of my life are no problem, but certain vegan cheese recipes cause HELL. And yet, veganism is kind of entwined with a certain kind of puritanical branch of my ex-religion that has some deep roots in parts of my family as well, the idea that I might be *allergic* to what's basically *holy food* and that, in fact, cheese is WAY healthier to me, well... that just cannot POSSIBLY be true. Even my body's a heretic, apparently :P

Also, my allergy is delayed... I break out in a rash that will last for up to a week and cause itching and pain all over my palate, lips, flushed gums, etc... but it won't be visible for up to two days. So yeah, not the stereotypical anaphylactic stuff if someone is trying to deny its reality.

[Mmy]

@Froborr: My brother once outright told me he doesn't believe I'm really allergic, because he "Doesn't believe in purely digestive allergies," meaning that unless it kills you or you break out in hives, it's not "really" an allergy and completely psychosomatic.

Well, other than pointing out that many things are called "allergies" because no one wants to get into a long complicated discussion about "auto-immune responses of the walls of the intestines" -- what the hell makes him think he knows better than people who have done years of research and study on the subject? Like, you know, doctors (not GPS, necessarily) who specialize in the "gut."

Speaking as someone whose "gut" doctor wanted to find out how "good" I have been doing on my diet and therefore I not too long ago had a procedure where they put a camera down your throat and take lovely holiday snaps of your intestines.

And now I have had the fun of looking at actual photographs of the insides of my intestines. Anyway, that is how seriously the doctor took the issue and the nasty, socialist, godless, death-panel organizing medical system of Ontario thinks that it these "allergies" are real enough to pay for that procedure.

And the godless, socialist, whiny, soft-hearted, medical system of the Canadian Army diagnosed my dad with one of those conditions and further more, you know what they did? As long as my dad and mom lived in their condo the socialist, cruel, death-panel, elder-hating Medical wing of the Army of Canada got together with socialist, nasty, godless, mushy-headed bureaucrats of the Ontario Health Care System to arrange that specially cooked frozen meals be delivered to my dad every week (enough for seven days) free of charge. And now the two systems are so deluded that they actually pay for all of Dad's medications and health care related to that "psychosomatic" disorder.

[Froborr]

what the hell makes him think he knows better than people who have done years of research and study on the subject?

Basically, he has absolutely zero respect for expertise in any field other than his own or any experience other than his own.

[Mmy]

@Froborr: Or please don't tell me he is either a programmer, an engineer or an economist.

[Diona the Lurker]

@L. David Wheeler: yes, what’s up with Jason recently? I wasn’t around in Slacktivist’s early days, but I’ve read what both he and other people have said about his behaviour then, and it’s clear enough that he’s regressed pretty badly. He wasn’t like this while I was reading Fred on this site, and neither has he been like this when I’ve looked at his blog. What I’m finding really bizarre is how he asserts that Slacktivist made him look at his privilege and change his behaviour; and yet, even as he claims this he’s displaying the exact same behaviour he believes he grew out of. And he has the nerve to complain because the board isn’t his personal Privilege 101 tutorial. It’s hard not to think that, if the board changed to coddle his preferences, he’d either still find the place not edgy enough for him, or keep complaining about the posters being so, so mean to him.

[Will Wildman]

Um, no defence of Jason's actions at all, but maybe it is not the best thing to have a conversation on a public board on the sujbect of someone who is not apparently present? At least not when speculating about how he would react in other hypothetical situations, given that the jackwagonry he's displayed in this particular situation is vast and layered on its own.

[AnaMardoll]

@Froborr: Or please don't tell me he is either a programmer, an engineer or an economist.

LOL, I am two of those things and frequently joke that I am planning to become the third.*

(Common question: "You majored in English AND Engineering? Why?" Common Answer: "I was going through the Es. Economics is next.")

[L. David Wheeler]

Will - True, which is why I'm not responding. No offense to Diona, but I'd rather talk WITH Jason (or anyone else) than ABOUT him.

[Kit Whitfield]

@will - it helps me to know that other people do not support the way Jason has treated me. How he'd act if coddled is a moot point because that's not going to happen, but I am pretty sickened right now and if people don't comment, it looks like everyone thinks how he's been treating us is okay.

[Froborr]

@Mmy: Got it in one. Educated in programming, works in systems analysis.

[Deird, who edits engineering stuff]

(Common question: "You majored in English AND Engineering? Why?" Common Answer: "I was going through the Es. Economics is next.")

Heh. I should try that.

(Weird situation: turning up to your editing course and having every person you meet ask "So, have you come straight from your Arts degree, or did you do something else in between?" with no comprehension of the idea that one could possibly be an editor with a different degree...)

[Deird, who wants to be supportive]

*hugs Kit*

[Diona the Lurker]

@Will Wildman: Yes, I should have thought about that before posting. I apologise to Jason and anyone else who objected to my comments.

[sarah]

*snorts* My brother's an engineering student. He's not assholish, but sometimes when we talk, I'm reminded of just how differently we think.

[Mmy]

@Everyone: I have no interest in talking "about" Jason (for example, discussing what motivates him) but the only way I can express to Jason my opinion that he owes many people, most especially Kit, a sincere and unequivocal apology is to tell him so on this board.

[Will Wildman]

Kit: I do fully agree that his behaviour has been horrible and that he needs to apologise - I think I've been consistent on those points when engaging him myself, although he's ignored my posts (and those of many others) in favour of hounding you specifically. It was only a specific sort of gossipy speculation above that seemed - off to me.

[The Kidd]

Kit, Jason's treatment of you was definitely and I thought obviously extremely unfair. His treatment of all three heads of TBAT was inexcusable and requires an apology. Enough said.

[Kit Whitfield]

Yes, you have been supportive, Will, and I really appreciate it. Thank you.

[Diona the Lurker]

@Kit: I'm glad my comments helped you, although in retrospect I think Will was right that I shouldn't have been speculating about hypotheticals. For what it's worth, I do object to how Jason treated you and other people on the board, and find his behaviour hard to understand.

[Timothy (TRiG)]

Heh. I'm a programmer, but with no qualifications in that field. My degree is in chemistry. And I have great respect for experts. I try to, anyway.

TRiG.

[Mmy]

@TRiG: Yeah, this is a case where B is highly likely to be a member of A doesn't mean A is highly likely to be B.

[Will Wildman]

My brother's an engineering student. He's not assholish, but sometimes when we talk, I'm reminded of just how differently we think.

I used to make jokes about having been 'raised by chemists' in the same way that wilderness heroes are raised by wolves*, but over time I've realised that this is not entirely inaccurate. I do all right in sciences and I'm fine with numbers, but most of the stuff that really interests me is in the artsier direction - yet I still have fundamental concepts of statistical analysis, source-checking, and scientific method ingrained deeply in my head. The same is true to an even greater degree with my brother, who did terribly in math for years and never wants to touch most sciences with a 3.07-metre-pole, but has methodical analytical thought-processes that get into huge fights with his drilled-instincts military training, and is endlessly gleeful when he realises he can solve a problem through spreadsheets. I tend to think of the two of us as being 'culturally scientists' even though our education would not really suggest any such thing.

*I still do, but I used to, too. /mitchhedberg

[Froborr]

Yeah, I'm definitely somewhere in between. At work to an extent, and even moreso in my college classes, I was the science and tech, logical-thinking guy. Yet among my high school friends (who have all gone into STEM fields except me) I was the fuzzy-brained artsy-storyteller guy you bribed with pizza to run your D&D game.

[Madhabmatics]

@Rupaul

That sounds awesome, you are kinda making me want to run out to grab Living in the End Times now.

Re: "But how can you tell who is going to come trolling and who is just being a newcomer" - it grows on you as you participate in spaces. I think everyone here that has ever participated in a minority space knows at least a few tells where they see someone come in and say, "I know exactly what this person is going to post" and it's not because they are psychic (apologies to any psychic-claiming slacktiverses!) but because some behavior is just so archetypal that we've all seen it a million times and we don't have to play the game out to the conclusion to know what's going to go on.

There's a place where I talk about minority perspectives in gaming and one day this dude came in and said,

"The "safe space" concept as it usually manifests itself is so very close to "if you choose to disagree, and if you disagree too hard, or in a way that triggers someone's -anyone's- particular tick, trauma, or quirk, we will either ban you or -lacking this power- be snarky and deride you until you give up." It's like a bizarro version of the exact thing that a handful of posters kept accusing the games forum of as a whole."

So everyone knew he was going to be a huge misogynist and pointed it out and made fun of him. Of course, the usual crowd came in and went "But how can you know he hates women? He's just asking questions, man! He hasn't said anything anti-woman" and one of the moderators pointed to another thread where he said:

TW: Outrageously dumb anti-women rape-apologia stuff that everyone knew was coming because, seriously, look at that first quote http://pastie.org/3357817

I think one of the wisest quotes I've read on it came from a fellow SA poster who, in a thread where a bunch of people were saying "Well, Ron Paul let's racists write racist things in his newspaper, he let's racists lead his campaign, he has dinner with racists and keeps up with the racist news... But how do you KNOW he is a racist??", said

"All this blatant handwaving reminds me of the cross burning at Tulane years ago that was explained away by white people as "we were having a bonfire and the wood just happened to resemble a cross." Of course, the fact that the MLK Jr. Drive sign "somehow" got on their pile of wood was just a strange coincidence too.

White people are mostly raised to never see racism, even overt acts of it."

[Izzy]

See, I don't mind at all gossiping about people who've proven they deserve to be gossiped about. One of the great pleasures of life. ;) But if it's not appropriate for the board, fair enough.

[Froborr]

@Izzy: Way I see it, there's gossiping at the water cooler, and then there's gossiping in front of TV cameras. Posting in a public forum is uncomfortably close to the latter, for me.

[AnaMardoll]

@Deird, are you an English Engineer too??!!

(I feel like Acorna seeing another unicorn girl.)

[Wysteria]

I've actually believed that every single one of the trolls so far was operating in good faith and would not, just to choose real examples, defend the c-word, use the c-word, address the bulk of their complaints at the female moderators instead of the male author, freely admit they were just trying to harass prudes.

I have been very disappointed. I have also had it illustrated to me that I am not a very good judge of who is engaging in good faith and who is engaged in wearing their rear end on their head. I've tried to draw back and stop engaging at the first tangible proof of Yes This Is A Troll, and only start engaging if someone else started engaging first, on the principle of 'maybe their troll detector is better than mine.'

[Deird, who loves her job]

*high-fives Ana*

Mechanical Eng, followed by an editing course. I race around fixing up documents for engineers who can't write.

[AnaMardoll]

@Deird, English degree here, then Electrical Engineering. I race around begging to write documents that management refuses to pay for. *facepalm*

I ... I thought I was the only one of my kind. *happysob*

[Amaryllis]

By the time I'd caught up Jason had left the discussion, so I didn't want to say anything directly to/about him. But I will say that one of the most depressing things about this whole experience is reading some hurtful comments, here and elsewhere, from people with whom I'd thought we had a relationship of mutual respect even when there were disagreements. Apparently, not so much.

As for worrying about what other people eat, I was inculcated early with my mother's precept: "Eyes on your own plate!" I'm always surprised when I meet someone who was never taught that simple rule.

About eating in fine restaurants, I don't have a food-restriction story. But I'm reminded of the time we-- husband,daughter and self-- found ourselves in a French restaurant-- Martick's, for any Baltimoreans among us. It was a tiny place, one of those where the entire menu consists of two or three items that are whatever the chef feels like cooking that day. Daughter, pretty young at the time, was in one of those picky stages, and didn't like the sound of any of them. So I asked the server if she could have the chicken breast served plain, without the complicated sauce-and-seasoning that was supposed to come with it.

Mr. Martick himself walked out of the kitchen, looked sternly at me, and said, "I Don't Serve Plain Food. *pause* But I'll make a sauce for her chicken that she'll like."

And he did, and she did, and another kid learned that there's more to restaurant dining than chicken nuggets and fries.

[Izzy]

@Froborr: Fair enough. I don't object to either in the right context, but I'm kind of a Mean Girl in many respects.

[Amaryllis]

@Izzy: would you perhaps agree with Ogden Nash?

And I also say Pooh for sweetness and light,
And if you want to get the most out of life why the thing to do is to be a gossiper by day and a gossipee by night.

[Brin]

Deploy the anti-italics!

How's that?

[Amaryllis]

Begone!

I swear I previewed...Did that work?

[Amaryllis]

Thank you!

[Rupaul]

@Kit, I've been worried about my silence since you posted. I don't think it had really hit me how much work you and the board had to put in to clean up the thread, and what awful and dispiriting work it was. And how awful it would to have someone trash your work afterwards, and pick an ugly personal argument with you.

I didn't think that my telling Jason he owed you an apology would help him. Other people were telling him that. What I didn't think of, was that I should have said something to help *you*. Namely, that Jason treated you badly and owed you an apology.

In real life, I don't think I would have been so oblivious. I'm sorry.

[P J Evans]

The interesting thing is that she spent a semester abroad in Italy and found that she could eat some cheeses there. We're not sure why, but we think it must be the way they process it.

It might be like home-made yogurt, where the critters in the culture eat all the lactose. (My father worked with someone who was severely lactose intolerant; hse could tolerate home-made yogurt, but not commercial yogurt.)

[P J Evans]

I did not immediately drop to the floor in anaphylactic shock

Or worse, drop to the floor some time later in anaphylactic shock, because it isn't necessarily a fast reaction.
(I've met it, thanks: drug allergy with a reaction time that's just fast enough that I can't get out of the doctor's office, and just slow enough that they can actually do something to help. I consider myself lucky.)

[P J Evans]

Deird, I know a systems analyst whose bachelor's degree was in studio arts. One of the best data-analysis people where I work has a degree in history.
'It's more complicated than that.'

(I do GIS. I have two years of engineering, most of a BS in computer science, and no formal GIS training. I like reading our source documents; it uses most of my education.)

[Mmy]

@P J Evans:

I did not immediately drop to the floor in anaphylactic shock

Or worse, drop to the floor some time later in anaphylactic shock, because it isn't necessarily a fast reaction.

Decades ago I used to drive a friend (who couldn't drive) to the doctor for her regular allergy shot. This was absolutely routine. One day, as usual, she was sitting in the back seat after her shot accompanied by her young (about 2-1/2 year old son.) I heard the boy make a sound of distress and when I looked in the rear view mirror I realized my friend was in significant distress--struggling to even breathe.

Turned the car around in the road -- I was just a few blocks from the doctors and I guess I must have just left the car in the street and run in (this was before cell phones) yelling at the nurse what was happening. I vaguely remember someone running out with me, needles being wielded and sitting in the waiting room with a very distressed young boy.

My friend was okay but lord that was terrifying.

[Laiima]

@P J Evans - yay! Someone who knows what GIS is! In all the time I was doing it (1998-2007), I almost never met anyone who had even *heard of it* never mind knew what it was. I had a bachelor's in geography, and went to grad school for GIS. What I really liked doing was looking at remote sensing data. Not dealing with the horrible ERDAS software that I never could figure out. But I did wonder if, had there been a way to get a job working with the satellite data directly, or satellites themselves, maybe I could've made *that* work. I'm a total nerd about lidar and infrared and all that stuff.

[cjmr]

My allergist made us sit in his office for half an hour after each injection before we could leave.

[kisekileia]

Yeah, I got allergy shots one spring and I had to stay for 20 minutes after the shots in case I had a serious reaction.

[Mmy]

@cjmr & kisekileia: The weird thing is that we had waited for 20 minutes. Always did. (I used to have allergy shots myself when I was young and knew the drill.)

I wonder if there was a food/drug interaction? We never did figure out why it happened.

[storiteller]

And he did, and she did, and another kid learned that there's more to restaurant dining than chicken nuggets and fries.

I love that! My husband's father is an incredibly picky eater, which is frustrating because he won't even try most of the things that my husband wants to make for dinner. My husband wants him to be happy, so when he cooks, he makes his dad one of the few things he likes, and then makes something far more interesting for everyone else. I've told my husband that when we have kids, we're going to expose our kids to all sorts of foods as they grow up, so that they can have a palate that allows them to experience a wide array of cultures and tastes.

[cjmr]

During the spring, when the pollen is high, I react with great itchiness to having any fabric other than 100% cotton touching my skin. The rest of the year I'm fine. My new allergist says that he thinks my system just gets so overwhelmed in the spring I hyper react.

Maybe it was something like that--she'd been exposed to something (or a lot of somethings) that day that she was allergic to, and the shot just pushed her over the edge.

[cjmr]

I've told my husband that when we have kids, we're going to expose our kids to all sorts of foods as they grow up, so that they can have a palate that allows them to experience a wide array of cultures and tastes.

That was my theory, too. It has worked for 2/3rds of my children. The oldest will pretty much eat anything that he's not allergic to, and the youngest will take at least one bite of everything on her plate, but middle daughter has a very limited repetoire of foods she'll eat.

[Mmy]

@cjmr: Maybe it was something like that--she'd been exposed to something (or a lot of somethings) that day that she was allergic to, and the shot just pushed her over the edge.

That could indeed be what happened -- it was during my "maximum eye itchy" time of the year.

She was lucky that it happened when someone else was driving her though. Imagine having an attack like that while driving.

[Kit Whitfield]

Thanks to everyone for their support.

As regards telling him he should apologise: yes, he should, because it's the right thing to do, but by this point I really don't care. I told him at the time that I would get more rather than less upset with him the longer he left it, and he chose to leave it anyway. If he apologised now I don't think I'd accept it.

When he first came on this board he was outrageously offensive; I and others worked very hard to support him, help him, and benefit him. He frequently 'lost his temper', as he would self-excusingly call it, and I put up with it and tried to help him. I thought it was worth it because, as Amaryllis said, I thought there was mutual respect.

Turns out it was a big waste of my time, and he'll turn on me quite viciously if he feels like it.

He got a second chance. I don't think I owe him a third one. Not at this level of malice, and not at the level of effort I've put into helping him in the past. I have tried for years to care about and support his feelings; in a crisis I mention mine, and he attacks me for apparently considering myself a 'martyr'. He has demanded tremendous emotional caretaking from me and abused me for requesting a degree of emotional respect from him.

He is too selfish to reconcile with.

He has said himself that the reason he returned and reconciled in the first place was largely because I posted a sympathetic analysis of his feelings. Now I'm wishing I hadn't. As soon as the sympathy is suspended, he gets abusive. He tried the same self-analysis and reflection on his feelings in this thread that he's done many times before; this being a crisis, he got told it wasn't the moment instead of praised for his self-knowledge ... and without the praise he seems to consider due to him for talking endlessly about himself - without people rewarding his self-involvement - look what happens.

He should apologise because you should apologise when you act badly. But even if he does, it does not entitle him to anything from me. I do not think I owe him infinite do-overs.

Once might be a learning curve. Twice is a personality. I can never again trust an apology or self-proclaimed epiphany from him. He has proved that they don't preclude horrible treatment further down the line. I'm not taking the risk again.

As far as I'm concerned, he's on his own.

[Jason]

I have thought about this.

While most of the concerns I have about the community still stand, it was wrong of me to take such a harsh and aggressive tone in expressing those concerns. It was wrong of me to express those concerns in a manner that was accusatory and implied that TBAT was being dishonest. It was wrong of me to bring those concerns up in a manner that was insensitive to and ignored the needs other members of the community. It was also wrong of me to think this community would be one thing when the majority of its members do not want it to be that.

I still like the majority of the members of this community and do not want to leave with them having ill will towards me, so I am posting this.

However the language directed towards me over the past day has been exceedingly patronizing, treating me as if I was either a small child or someone with an emotionally stunting mental illness. I have seen many posts that have implied that I have the intelligence of a kindergartner, said that I have no social skills and used little patronizing names like "honey pie". I have sat here and read all kinds of speculation as to why I am upset that has assigned ridiculously cartoonish motives to my actions. I get the impression from the language used that a number of you think I am some sort of emotionally stunted, developmentally disabled, socially regressed man-child and I do not appreciate it.

If you want to know the reason for my silence, that is it. Some of you have been perfectly polite. However a number of you have sat here and directed rather hurtful insults towards me that don't technically sound like insults because they are worded nicely and then wondered why I kept getting angry.

Many times in a conflict both sides are at fault. I'm willing to admit that I may have behaved less than admirably and handled my criticisms of the community poorly. However that is as far as I'm willing to go until someone here is willing to acknowledge all of the backhanded insults that have been thrown in my direction.

Good day.

[Bruce Gorton]

P J Evans | Feb 08, 2012 at 09:08 AM (on Board Post for February 7)

Trigger: Swearing

Well, PJ, that is one of the reasons why Froborr's post got such a hot reaction, and why so many of us think he is a fucking dishonest wanker. The guy completely and totally misrepresented what Greta has repeatedly argued for - which is freedom of religion and the right to evangelise (Same meaning, prettier word) for your religion or lack thereof.

Greta's argument is for religion to die via the generalised realisation that it is incorrect, not via force of any kind past simple arguments and advertising.

The reasons for this go beyond a simple "What works" methodology - to us a disagreement on the existence of God is like a disagreement on any other issue of fact. Without people having the ability and freedom to argue their standpoint, errors that could otherwise be avoided are maintained.

Another issue is that the accusation of evil is a particularly potent trigger for a lot of atheists - particularly American ones, who have had to deal with such accusations from family, teachers, state representatives etc... shortly before getting death threats, if not actually suffering assault.

This comment was removed from its original location and reposted on the appropriate thread as a courtesy to the commenter.

[jemand]

Here I was thinking the reason for your silence was because you'd already said awhile ago that you weren't comfortable with the board as is and had decided to leave.

So now you're back. For another goodbye post.

I was not here for awhile and I can't say I read in real time the threads as they developed but... hi again bye again hi again bye again isn't polite, it's kind of manipulative, I mean, not necessarily manipulative in a concerted, conscious fashion, but it is so, in effect.

[Kish]

The guy completely and totally misrepresented what Greta has repeatedly argued for - which is freedom of religion and the right to evangelise (Same meaning, prettier word) for your religion or lack thereof.

Greta's argument is for religion to die via the generalised realisation that it is incorrect, not via force of any kind past simple arguments and advertising.

As far as I can tell, that's exactly what Froborr said Greta Christina was arguing for. The article you're complaining about does not say she's advocating conversion by force.

Froborr's position that "evangelising for your religion or lack thereof" is "evil in one of its purest forms" is an extreme position, but not an unclear one.

[Jason]

If I stop posting everyone talks about how ashamed they are of me and posts all these "Jason, if you're still listening...." posts.

If I come back then I get "ooooh, you said you weren't coming back!" posts.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, I guess.

[jemand]

Hmmm. The idea that many atheists especially from conservative backgrounds are extra sensitive to being called "evil" is kind of interesting and maybe true.

I still don't really feel comfortable engaging in discussions of that article directly. I have tremendous respect and affection for Greta Christina, and I have had nothing but good things from interacting with Froborr here. But you know, two people I like a lot can disagree strongly and *additionally* I don't even have to get in between, either.

But yeah... I do think I'm more sensitive than many atheists to things that imply I am "doing it wrong" or "being bad" partly because of how I was treated while leaving religion. Many atheists, however, have not had such experiences.

[Izzy]

@Amaryllis: The situations in which I don't agree with Ogden Nash are few and far between.

@Jason: I get the impression from the language used that a number of you think I am some sort of emotionally stunted, developmentally disabled, socially regressed man-child and I do not appreciate it.

Well, many of us don't agree with you acting like some sort of emotionally stunted, socially regressed man-child. (I've known plenty of developmentally disabled people who act better.) So: if you don't appreciate being talked to that way, STOP ACTING THAT WAY. Actions have consequences.

Why do you think yours get a free pass?

Why do you think people here were or are obligated to put up with pages of you not getting the point?

However that is as far as I'm willing to go until someone here is willing to acknowledge all of the backhanded insults that have been thrown in my direction.

I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge that I've insulted you. I don't think I've been particularly backhanded about it.

If I stop posting everyone talks about how ashamed they are of me and posts all these "Jason, if you're still listening...." posts.

So stop reading.

I guarantee you that people are going to be talking about you behind your back. Wherever, whenever. Maybe not here. Maybe I'll go to my LJ or my blog and make a locked post quoting you and talking about how much you suck and how disappointed I am that you turned out to be just another douche after all.

You'll never know.

That's life. Live with it.

[Mmy]

@Jason: Since I was the person who posted "Jason if you are still listening"

I also posted:

I believe that you owe me a direct and unequivocal apology. Not a "I'm sorry if your feelings were hurt" apology but a "I'm a sincerely sorry for have acted, spoken and written in the way I did. And I am sorry because it was offensive and you (mmy) were right to take offense."

I believe that you owe Kit a similar direct and unequivocal apology.

I believe that you owe hapax a similar direct and unequivocal apology.

Which you did not.

If you wish to have a conversation with people you have previously been rude, offensive and dismissive to then apologize without "may haves" and "handled poorly."

This is not about you Jason -- it is about how you treated some of us.

[Izzy]

And furthermore, because any excuse to postpone laundry is a good excuse:

I have seen many posts that have implied that I have the intelligence of a kindergartner,

That was me. Once. If you're gonna talk about me, grow a pair and talk to me.

And "why aren't people willing to spend hours patiently explaining a point everyone else already gets" is asking to be treated like a kindergartener. Not asking in an asking-for-it way, but actually coming out and demanding that other people function as your kindergarten teacher. Which nobody signed up for.

said that I have no social skills

Well, if you display a flagrant lack of social skills, what the fuck do you expect?

"Oh my God, I came into this party wearing no pants and people KEPT SAYING I WAS WEARING NO PANTS!"

[Jason]

@mmy-

If you wish to have a conversation with people you have previously been rude, offensive and dismissive to then apologize without "may haves" and "handled poorly."

This is not about you Jason -- it is about how you treated some of us.

Well, you owe me an apology for all of your stupid conjecture about why I did what I did and calling me stupid and telling me I have no social skills and all that other crap and I'm not going to get an apology for that, so it looks like we're at an impasse.

[Mmy]

@Jason:

People to whom you owe an apology:

TBAT (collectively) -- about whose actions you made blatant misstatements and which you have not formally and unequivocally apologized.

Kit (as part of the above and separately)
mmy
hapax

Every single person on this board who has a trigger
Every single person on this board who respects the triggers of others.

Repeat. Until you apologize my only response to you will be to ask you again to apologize.

[Izzy]

I don't even know where to start. The second-grade "ooh, well, YOU were mean to ME because blah blah blah", the conflation between psychoanalysis and "dude, this is what your actions say," and the outrage about being told he has no social skills when he...has no social skills. (Like, if I pointed out that the sky was blue, should I apologize for that?) I'm not even sure where to respond.

So here's a video of a cute owl: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub4n9Qx8_uc

[Jason]

Well, if you display a flagrant lack of social skills, what the fuck do you expect?

Oddly the only place where I don't seem to get along with people is here. Weird that is.....

[Kish]

As far as I can tell, that's exactly what Froborr said Greta Christina was arguing for. The article you're complaining about does not say she's advocating conversion by force.

Quoted to add, having looked again at the article in question:

The article you're complaining about explicitly says that Froborr knows she promises not to use legal coercion or force to bring about her world where religion no longer exists.

So, according to Greta Christina, her primary goal as an atheist is to make most of the world’s population suffer the trauma of losing their faith, so that they can then be better (read: more Greta Christina-like) people with truer (read: more similar to Greta Christina’s) beliefs. And I should be okay with this, because she promises not to use legal coercion or violence to bring it about.

I am not okay with this.

If you want to argue against Froborr's position, it would probably be a good idea to actually read the article well enough to grasp what his position is. Instead, you seem to be so convinced that "she doesn't advocate using force" is a trump card that you keep trying to play it even though the article you're complaining about already mentioned it.

[Izzy]

Oddly the only place where I don't seem to get along with people is here. Weird that is.....

Reeeallly?

So all those threads where you were pissing and moaning about how you had no friends and you couldn't get a date and your family argued with you and your co-workers didn't like you were total bullshit for our sympathy?

Good to know.

[Jason]

you had no friends

Going to lunch with 3 friends today.

you couldn't get a date

Went on one last week. She seems to want to go on another one.

your family argued

Since we quit talking about politics, we get along fine.

your co-workers didn't like you

I don't recall ever saying that my coworkers didn't like me. I get along fine with my coworkers.

[jemand]

OOOOOKKKKKKK.

If your life is so wonderful, why do you spend so much time checking and rechecking the ONE place you say you don't get along with people?

[Bruce Gorton]

Obviously when my post got moved here, what I was responding to hadn't.

J-theist, you're missing the entire point. Which I think is intentional on your part, if you aren't a recent arrival.

Froborr wasn't attacking Christina, he was attacking Christina's assumption that the best way for atheists to deal with religion is to eliminate religion. Not learn to live with people who believe differently, not tolerate differences, but eliminate them entirely. By coercion (force) if necessary.
That's what was being objected to.
That's why I agree with Froborr.

Posted by: P J Evans | Feb 08, 2012 at 09:08 AM

Just for the sake of clarity. I was not the only one reading Froborr's post that way.

[AnaMardoll]

Just for the sake of clarity. I was not the only one reading Froborr's post that way.

I agree you weren't the only one who read the post that way. But that doesn't change the fact that both you and J-theist missed the line where Froborr specifically said force wasn't on the table.

[Kish]

Okay. P. J. Evans was wrong.

Froborr's actual article is still on this board and not at all hard to find. I advise everyone against a completely unnecessary game of Telephone Game here.

[Izzy]

2Jason: Glad your life's improved, then, if only so you'll be less likely to whine about it here. (Though I do have to wonder if you make condescending asshat remarks to your lunchmates/date or expect them to spend two hours explaining things that you just don't get. And what happens the first time your date says "That upsets me, please don't do it?" Will you tell her she's trivializing people with real problems?)

Note: you have yet to answer my questions, apologize, address any of the points previously made about you, or, indeed, do anything except say I DO TOO HAVE SOCIAL SKILLS AND I HAVE A GIRLFRIEND AND LA LA LA LA.

So...yeah.

[Mmy]

@Bruce Gorton: Just for the sake of clarity. I was not the only one reading Froborr's post that way

It is perhaps a legacy of hearing hundred of students "reading Shakespeare that way" to see things in Hamlet or Twelfth Night or even A Nun in the Closet[1] that are mutually contradictory that I personally approach any "I was not the only one reading it that way" arguments with caution.

[1] A 1975 book by Dorothy Gilman. SPOILER ALERT: The person in the closet is neither a nun nor are they gay.

[Bruce Gorton]

Posted by: Kish | Feb 11, 2012 at 09:36 AM

The fact that people on both sides of the argument are independently seeing the same basic intention to it, indicates how badly written it was and that the criticisms it has received are fairly legitimate. What Greta argues for is far milder than what Froborr gives the impression she is arguing for is.