(Nearly) Open Thread, February 8 2012

In the last few weeks several members of our community (readers, commenters and posters) have shared news about illnesses and financial distress in their homes, families or communities. On a board with such a disparate community there are obviously many ways of responding to such news. What would response from others on the board would help you most? How do you respond in those circumstances?

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Comments

[burgundy]

For people I don't know well or haven't interacted with, I'm never sure if they want to hear from me or not. I mean, probably anyone saying something nice and supportive would be ok, but I don't want to be intrusive.

For myself...it's been great just getting to be part of the community again. I'm a little socially disconnected from some of my standard networks right now (I haven't been to work in almost a month), and some forms of social interaction take more spoons than I have these days. But participating in the Slactiverse, even when things are unpleasant, is something that I can do, and I don't need specific expressions of support so much as I need to feel like I'm an accepted and appreciated part of the community, which for me comes from people responding to and engaging with my comments. Which has been happening, and which is really nice.

[Anonymous]

Expressions of sympathy and support, talk of their own experiences with $similar-thing, letting me know that I don't have to respond to their expressions of good will -- because I can get overwhelmed and end up feeling like I should be making people feel good for cheering me up and should thus act cheerful, which is my own problem, but is hard acting sufficiently cheered up when I don't have the spoons. You can also help by telling me that I'm in your thoughts or prayers (to whatever God(s) or god(s)), but telling me to pray about my own problem can trigger me and it's between me and God whether we're on speaking terms at the moment, okay? (I'm not triggered by people asking people on the board to pray for them in general, because I'm not being singled out.)

Really, what helps me most is "I'm listening, and I care, and I hope things suck less for you soon."

"I had a similar experience, *explains* and it was hard and then gradually it got less hard and it still hurt for a long while." helps too, a lot.

Well meaning things that don't help:
tw suicidal ideation
"What happened to me wasn't nearly as bad as what happened to you, but..." (if it really wasn't that bad -- if you're about to bring up having stubbed your toe or something -- then don't. If what you're about to bring up had a big effect on you and was hard, then don't minimise it like that, because my head translates that statement as "oh my GOD. I could barely cope with $x. If I were in your situation I'd kill myself!" (I'm more likely to mishear statements like this when I'm actively suicidal or suicidal but trying not to be, but the thing is you don't know what head space I'm in and if I'm in a bad place, reminding me that what happened to be me is hyperbolically bad is not going to do good things to me. What happened to you is bad; what happened to me is bad. Don't rank things, please. Don't tell me that something horrible that happened to you is minute compared to what I'm dealing with because it makes me want to just give up. No pity, please. The only time I want to be fussed over and pitied is when I have a head-cold.

Trigger warning: extremely wrong statement about rape, don't de-rot13 if you're not in the place for it.
On the other hand, don't minimise what I'm going through either. Don't tell me that I have it easy because someone else (or you) had it worse. For example, gur crefba jub gbyq zr lrnef ntb gung V jnf yhpxl V jnf n ivpgvz bs vaprfg orpnhfr vg jnf jbefr sbe gurz orvat encrq ol n fgenatre. It doesn't matter whose experience was objectively worse. Having bad things happen to you is not a zero-sum game. We can all have had bad things happen to each other without needing to establish some sort of pecking order.

If the bad that happened to you had a big effect on your life and had lasting effects, then it's equally bad, okay? No harder or less hard. You can share that with me if you feel like it in response to hearing about the bad thing that happened to me. That helps me feel like I'm not alone and that other people understand what I'm saying. But if you don't feel like sharing then you can also say that you're listening and you care and you hope things get better, or tell me to hang in there or that you're thinking about me.

[Wysteria]

If I know someone well enough, I'll offer a hug. If I don't, I'll offer an internet-style hot beverage of choice. I used to offer hugs to all, but got into the habit of beverages once I became 'net friends with someone for whom 'net hugs were an unwelcome invasion of her personal space.

Sometimes, often, when life is challenging, I just like knowing that there are people out there who are decent, who don't assume that all problems can be solved with ~willpower~.

[Julie paradox]

Offering: I often simply post variations on "I'm sorry to hear this." If I know the person is a practising Christian I may mention my own prayers (I'm afraid even if you're not I will probably end up praying** for you anyway: I hope this isn't going to violate anyone's sense of fitness).

Receiving: I appreciate all acknowledgements*. When my FIL died I was very careful to couch my request in non-belief-specific terms; with the unintended result that everyone who responded did the same thing!

*These approaches are inconsistent. I'm fine with that. I have a complicated and frankly contradictory stance in the murky swamp of metaphysics.

**FCVO (see *).

[Madhabmatics]

Different situations require different circumstances, but I've found myself in the position of trying to comfort people by letting them know that it's OK to feel what they feel pretty often lately. When you are going through a bad situation, it's pretty easy to turn your gaze on yourself and beat yourself up for letting yourself get emotionally involved and afffected by the situation. I know that it comforts me a lot when people legitimize my reactions during periods of suffering, so I like to help others in the same situations by pointing out that it isn't "weird" to be emotionally affected.

[Eliminatheist]

As an atheist, my response depends on whether the distressed person is an atheist or a theist.

ROT13d -- for apparent intention to distress rather than be responsive to the spirit of the prompt

Vs gurl'er n gurvfg, V qb zl orfg gb znxr gurve ceboyrzf jbefr, va beqre gb ryvzvangr gurz sebz choyvp yvsr.

[The Board Administration Team]

@Everyone:

1) comments that are posted to the "wrong" thread will be deleted. Posters can repost the comment to the correct thread.

2) comments from sock puppets will be considered to be spam and treated as such.

[Amaryllis]

I usually don't know what to say beyond conventional expressions of sympathy, but so many people have expressed appreciation for community support in times of trouble, however banal its expression, that I try to remember to say something.

I don't offer counsel, because no one would get far by following my advice.

So, in that spirit, @Anonymous, I'm sorry for what happened to you, and I'm glad if we've helped you to feel less alone.

There's been a few times when I've asked for sympathy/prayers/hugs, and it's helped.

In general, when I've had a down day, I don't necessarily want to talk about it. I might not want to talk at all. But it helps to come here, and one or two other places, and "hear" interesting and (usually) civil conversations. And on the really bad days, I look for conversations about books. When all else fails, thank God for books and people who read them.

...and, of course, the noble souls who write them!

[Mike Timonin]

As one of those people who posted such a thing recently, I can honestly say that the response was exactly what I expected (sympathy and virtual hugs, etc) and also exactly what I needed at the time, which is why I posted it. At about the same time, I lit a candle at church (UU church, so less, I don't know, formal than a Catholic candle?), for the same reason. I needed to know that I wasn't going through things alone (well, I knew that, but the rest of the family is literally going through the same thing, and we're all too close to it, you know?)

Anyway, if it got lost where I posted it, we did find an apartment, it's smaller and more expensive than what we have now, but lead free, and it's probably only for a year/15 months. Thanks for the warm response, it made me feel loved.

[chris the cynic]

I always want to say something personal and helpful, but it is generally the case that I can't figure out what to say and so end up being entirely generic.

When someone asks for prayers I ask god to help them, perhaps put in a good word with the person's god if possible. I don't have any formal prayers, so I just ask god in simple English.

-

As for what helps me, honestly pretty much anything that acknowledges that there's someone out there who cares. It is very, very easy for me to believe that no one gives a damn about me, and being reminded that isn't true is important.

Likewise things that don't minimize what I'm going through because I do that on my own. A lot of people do go through things much worse than anything I ever have to face. A lot of people do cope much better than I ever have. I know these things and it's not unusual for them to be on my mind when things are going badly for me and I'm dealing with it badly. It has been the case where I posted something that I felt ashamed for posting because it seemed to me like self indulgent wining about nothing, and when people here took it seriously that helped me because it made me not feel guilty about what I was going through.

[chris the cynic]

That should be "self indulgent whining about nothing". Someday I shall learn to spell.

[Certainly Sylvia]

@Chris

A girlfriend has a line that really applies, "The worst thing that has ever happened to you, is the worse thing you 'know'. As such it is as personally valid to feel as you do, as it is for others to feel what they do."

She contextualised it as how there is no heirarchy of pain and hurt. Once I got that it really helped me with a lot of my recitence to accept my right to hurt, in a world full of hurts.

:)

[Slow Learner]

What do I do? Try to respond to exactly what I've been told; not project something worse/better/different (I used to have a problem with that. Possibly still do, so I try to be wary about it). Where possible I try to find practical ways to help, like cooking someone dinner if they're stressed. For people I only know over the 'net, I'm a bit more limited on practical help, but I do try to find something.

What I appreciate from others is expressions of sympathy, and specific offers of assistance where appropriate. I always feel a bit awkward with "If you ever need anything, just ask." I always feel as though I'm imposing, even when I know they really mean the *anything*.
I also feel a bit awkward if someone says they'll pray for me. I try to translate it to "keep you in my thoughts", which helps inasmuch as I succeed.

@Sylvia, I like that :)

[Literata]

I have to say that it has been incredibly helpful lately to know that there are people who care. Prayers, good wishes, and expressions of support are invaluable.

One of the most precious kinds of help, to me, is someone who tries to strike a balance between giving me privacy and reminding me that I'm not alone. That's not an easy line to walk, but it is such a helpful approach that a little error on either side is no problem.

Another thing that people are doing that helps is to keep me connected to my "regular" life, beyond what I'm calling the "cancer event horizon." It's easy to feel like the rest of the world has just ceased to exist. Sometimes I will need to function that way. But it's also important to know that I haven't been cut off from my previous connections.

In my specific situation right now, thank you all again for the continuing support. My mother will have surgery next Thursday, and we'll know more about the situation as a whole in a couple weeks.

[Julia]

I mostly lurk these days, but will offer my tuppence (3.2 cents) that the worst thing on comment threads to advice columns is "Grow up" or any variant thereof.
But Slacktivites don't seem to say that kind of thing, which is why y'all are ace in my book.

[AnaMardoll]

Another person here to second that Pain Is Pain and your mind and body don't magically feel better just because someone, somewhere has it worse.

I have a hard time reaffirming people's pain, though, because I always FEEL like I'm saying "oh, gods, your life is TERRIBLE, how do you even deal?" and that's probably not helpful. What I'm TRYING to say is "oh, that sounds awful, all the hugs forever" but I'm not sure I succeed.

And, mind you, I feel HUGELY whiny when I complain, or I worry that I'm making everyone else uncomfortable, so this would be a case of having double-standards: one for everyone else and an impossible one for me.

[hapax]

In another online community, which includes persons of different religious and no religious beliefs, we have taken to the shorthand of "sending karma."

On the one hand, it's a bit appropriative, since none of us are Hindu or Buddhist; on the other hand, for that very reason, nobody feels left out or imposed upon. (Besides, the entire notion of "sending karma" would be nonsensical in the original context -- even I know that much.)

I also like the image of Buddhist prayer wheels, spinning in the wind, sending positive emotions, energy, thoughts, at the whim of meteorology or grace, depending upon your perspective:

@@@@@@@@@@@

[Certainly Sylvia]

@Ana

Oh ... I know that double standard well. Always easier to accept someone else's experience as worthy than ones own.

[Froborr]

Oh ... I know that double standard well. Always easier to accept someone else's experience as worthy than ones own.

I spent more time than I should have writing and erasing comments attempting to express this point as why I tend to say stuff like "What happened as me isn't as bad as what happened to you, but..."

Eventually gave up because I was worried they came across as pleas for sympathy. Thank you for saying it so succinctly.

[Anonymous]

@Froborr: I understand where the need to minimise ones own experiences comes from -- I've experienced it myself. When I was a teenager, I used to seek out books about abuse cases that were "worse" than mine, all so that I could say "Well, my parents didn't trigger warning: graphic description of very bad things that happen to children. if you're on the fence about whether to de-rot13 this or not, err on the safe side please. srrq zr fbnc, naq V jnfa'g bar bs gubfr xvqf rngvat tynff, naq gurl qvqa'g chg xavirf vagb zl cevingr cnegf. So what happened to me wasn't that bad."

It says something that I had to reach for examples that extreme to minimise what I was going through, but I did it. I couldn't handle "it was that bad". I didn't have the spoons to deal with how bad it actually was. Facing that what happened to me was really that bad was something that took years and years and I still can't look at the whole of it dead on because it's overwhelming.

When I was at residential, there was this one girl who was more messed up than the rest of us -- she was having a harder time coping with the traumas that brought her into residential treatment and she was eventually discharged to a more secure facility because the institution we were in wasn't equipped to deal with the sorts of problems she had.

After she left, we were gossiping about her like teenagers do -- she'd really frightened some of the girls, and I said something that I'm not proud of but let's just say I wasn't as far along on my journey towards being coming a decent human being as I am now. I said to one of the girls that wasn't in the trauma group that I didn't know why she was so messed up because what had happened to this girl wasn't "even that bad". They of course asked for details, and being the little snot that I was, I violated confidentiality to tell them that she had been synfurq bapr ol n eryngvir. (I think I've obscured the details of who I am and where the place was and who she was enough that I don't think this is a violation of confidentiality here.)

The non-trauma group girls gasped and said "but that's horrible!" And something in me clicked and realised that it was. It was absolutely horrible what that girl had gone through. It was horrible what she went through and it's horrible that we live in a world where things like that happen and I want to live in a world where the types of harassment that I think every woman experiences at some time or another don't exist anymore, the micro-aggressions and the guy on the tram that got a bit too close and the surprise backrubs from creepy old men in the cafeteria and the strangers inviting you back to their apartment. I want to live in a world where all of that "minor" everyday stuff doesn't happen anymore.

And ever since that experience with that poor girl in residential, I've pushed back against this idea that an amount of pain that is causing actual effects in your real life is not "that bad" in comparison to some other type of pain that is causing effects in someone else's life. If you're having a hard time, then whatever caused that is non-trivial. It is scary admitting that it's non-trivial because it's overwhelming and hard to deal with and because the mountain someone else is climbing may look higher or more slippery than your mountain. But you don't have to climb their mountain. You only have to climb yours, and I've fallen off my mountain enough times to know that the free-falls are made no less or more scary and injury-prone and bad by the existence of other people's mountains and other people's falls.

Trigger warning: discussion of pain in an infant (teething)

Another thing that helped me is to think of teething. Teething is the first big painful bad scary thing that happens to most humans. It is the worst thing that new human has ever experienced, because that human doesn't have much experience yet and doesn't have very many tools for dealing with pain yet. Eventually, the pain goes away and we forget about it, our first trauma, a little trauma compared to the traumas that come later, but when it happens, it is big and momentous and beyond the our capacity to deal. We cry a lot when cutting our first teeth. We cry for days on end and scream and wail. Eventually, it gets better, but even if we know it will at that age (and i'd wager that in the moment, most new humans don't know that it's going to get better), it doesn't change the fact that we are hurting now, and the person who always made our hurts better before is helpless to help us now.

Most of us adults look back at teething, something we don't remember, somewhat dismissively. Teething? Seriously? That's nothing compared to $bad-thing-that-came-later. And that's true in some ways -- if I were teething now as an adult, I'd probably be more equipped to deal with it, I guess, and I probably wouldn't even cry about it. My pain threshold is higher now. But back then, it was the worst thing I had ever experienced and it's wrong to diminish that.

I'm not claiming to have suffered long lasting trauma from teething. I believe that just about everyone who has no longer teething is probably fully recovered from the experience. I'm saying that even teething doesn't deserve to be minimised, should be empathised with.

Not minimising pain: whether yours and others, is about recognising that whatever your feeling is okay, and you need to address what your feeling before you can move on.

The only way out is through.

[Lonespark]

Teething as an almost-adult sucks, too. Getting later molars certainly hurt for me and many people I know. But yeah, you know what's causing the pain, you can likely take medicine for it, and you've dealt with other kinds of pain in your life and had them end/lessen/change. (Generally. I realize that's a probably still a pretty ablist statement to make.)

[Anonymous]

Hmm, true. Now that you mention it, I did have a pretty bad experience with wisdom teeth. It didn't cause lasting trauma in my case, and it's not something I think about all that often, but content warning: bad dentistry experience I remember that they told me going in to have all four removed that a side effect of the medication they were giving me was it would make me cry. So when the medication wore off and i could feel everything that was happening and I started crying, they assumed it was a side effect of the medication.

So, yeah, teething is no picnic as an adult either. But my point was that even teething the first time around, which is something we all survive and then forget about completely, and likely doesn't cause lasting psychological scars, is a big deal to the people it happens to, because it is the worst thing they've ever experienced and they don't have the tools to deal with it, which puts it in the realm of the bad things that happen later in life that we don't have tools to deal with either.

[kisekileia]

@Anonymous, I wonder whether crying was actually a side effect of the medication, or whether the dentists who noticed that their patients cried just assumed that rather than investigating whether the patients were in actual physical pain. And as someone who has to take Percocet almost every day for dental pain, I really like your point about teething.

[kisekileia]

As one of the people who posted about a problematic financial/family situation, I appreciate the care and concern shown by TBAT in making this post. I appreciate it when people engage with what I've said, or make suggestions that are new to me; it's a little annoying when people suggest stuff that I already know won't work, but I realize that other people can't know what ideas I have and haven't already encountered. I worry, when I post about stuff that's going on with me, about whether I'm derailing threads.

[Nick Kiddle]

//Teething as an almost-adult sucks, too. Getting later molars certainly hurt for me and many people I know.//

I remember getting my wisdom teeth through, and my mum saying, "You know what babies do when they're teething?" She meant that they find something hard and bite down on it, which is apparently soothing, but I said, "Yes, they scream the house down, and I completely understand why."

[Madhabmatics]

@AnaMardoll

You may be interested in this quote from famous holocaust survivor Victor Frankl who wrote the book "Man's Search for Meaning." After he was rescued from the camps, he became a therapist and the question came up about how he could put so much effort into caring for people who didn't suffer nearly as much as he did. In "Man's Search for Meaning" he says,

"To draw an analogy: a man's suffering is similar to the behavior of gas. If a certain quantity of gas is pumped into an empty chamber, it will fill the chamber completely and evenly, no matter how big the chamber. Thus suffering completely fills the human soul and conscious mind, no matter whether the suffering is great or little. Therefore the "size" of human suffering is absolutely relative."

[kisekileia]

Okay, I don't want to derail the thread, but OMG these baby bunnies are SO CUTE!!!

[J. Random Scribbler]

I'm yet another person who does the "It's OK for them to make mistakes, but not me" double-standard thing. It leads to a lot of minimizing of my own stuff, and makes me very prone to the "My thing wasn't as bad as your thing, but... " style of expressing sympathy. I don't want to come across like I'm trying to steal attention from the other person, and I'm also afraid my thing might seem trivial, and come across as an attempt to trivialize the other person's pain.

I'll definitely keep in mind that this can come across wrongly; thanks for explaining that, Anonymous. It hadn't occurred to me before, but it makes sense to me.

The idea that there's no hierarchy of pain is helpful to me too, and that it's not contemptible for me to feel pain about something just because somebody else is worse off. Likewise, comments like Chris's and Froborr's, which remind me that I'm not the only person in the world who struggles with this sort of thing, and show that it's possible to talk about it without coming across as self-indulgent.

I definitely hear you, Froborr, about the writing and erasing (oh, do I ever!) and Kisekilea, about being afraid to derail. I'm slowly learning not to just vanish when I have trouble, but instead reach out and try to express what's going on, and hearing that others also struggle with expressing things here makes me feel better. In fact, this whole topic is timely.

As to how I try to help others, unless I know the person well it's usually by chiming in with support and "you're not alone" and offers of hugs-if-they're-wanted. My hope is that even a simple acknowledgement can be as helpful to others as it often is to me.

[Literata]

Slight tangent: does anyone else use crafting as a coping mechanism? Today I'm tired and somewhat stressed emotionally and physically. I also suddenly have three new bracelets - one a gift that I set out to make this morning, and two more that sort of just happened as I continued to mess with my beading materials. Now, this is not a huge accomplishment, but it's kinda cool, definitely better than just watching TV, and it has helped me feel somewhat better. I suddenly realize I have had this happen before; I was having a bad disability day, and a friend sat me down with some small pieces of leather and a couple tools. By the end of the day I had ten pieces of tooled leather, including a couple intricate knotwork patterns. Is this just me?

[Sixwing]

@Literata, it definitely isn't just you. When I'm having a bad headspace day, almost nothing is better than retreating into the shop and cutting some rocks. They're so very solid and they require enough attention that it calms and focuses me, gives me something other than whatever awfulness is going on to think about.

I'll go from "augh everything is terrible" to "look, four new cabochons and I feel a lot better now, thanks."

[AnaMardoll]

Cross-posting here from Fred's site re: today's BC news, because I'm pissy about it.

--

Wouldn't that be easier to do under the original rule?

No, because access to BC in the past has always been prescribed by general practitioner doctors or OBGYNs under the basic well-woman coverage. You take two women at the same company, going to the same OBGYN, you have no idea which one is on BC and which is not. Under this new policy, not so much.

There are also huge issues of consent -- under the previous policy, daughters and wives could get BC without their father/husband (in many cases the primary insured party) being aware of it. Now, if the primary insured party opts out of the special coverage, there is no way for the women in his family to get the BC, or at least that is the concern.

This is -- imho -- a terrible decision by Obama. Conversation and extrapolation here:

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2012/02/obama-blinks-on-birth-control.html

[AnaMardoll]

@Madhabmatics, awesome quote, thank you. That reminds me that I studied Frankl in college and thought he was made of win. I need to re-read him some more. :)

[Literata]

Thanks, Sixwing. I wish I was producing something as pretty as cabochons, but at least I'm using up some of my bead stash.

Re: BC - My father or husband gets to decide whether I can afford birth control? Is this 1950? Yeah, that's not going to becomeba control tactic for some jerks, oh no, not at all.

[AnaMardoll]

It's NEW 1950! All the restrictions as before, none of the groovy music!

[jemand]

I think sometimes it's just I forget all the ways I have managed to cope with my stuff... so it is easier to minimize what happened to ME when I hear a story from someone else. If that other thing would have happened, I would have come up with coping mechanisms for *that,* but I think I find it difficult to automatically realize that just because I haven't already installed coping mechanisms for everything bad that could ever possibly happen to anyone doesn't mean I'm not allowed to recognize that I got hurt.

And so then sometimes I say things that may hurt the other person I was trying to help, so thanks Anonymous for bringing that up, I will keep it in mind in the future.

[kisekileia]

Oh, that sucks, Ana. I read an article just stating that the coverage would be provided by the insurance companies rather than the employers, and it didn't say anything about those implications. I think it's reasonable to try to find a way to make sure women can get that coverage without religious employers having to pay for it, but it really sucks that this is going to remove agency from the women.

[AnaMardoll]

I think it's reasonable to try to find a way to make sure women can get that coverage without religious employers having to pay for it

I don't, but that's because in this particular case I find the Slippery Slope argument compelling. (I.e., my personal employer would LOVE to use conscience clauses to excuse themselves from paying any health insurance at all, I'm sure.)

[AnaMardoll]

And, since I think my last post was unclear, I mean, I do not think it's reasonable to provide exemptions to religious employers.

NOT that I do not think it's reasonable to get birth control to women. I think it's very reasonable to get birth control to women.

But not in a way that continues to side-line women's health as a political bargaining chip in measures that (imho) haven't been thought through to the actual effect on real people.

[kisekileia]

Hmm, that's a good point, Ana.

[Froborr]

@Ana: Oh, I'm quite sure the administration and Church officials have through through all the impacts of this on everyone they consider real people.

[AnaMardoll]

@Froborr, quite. Am now wishing starting a third party was not so difficult.

[burgundy]

This is the kind of thing the more confrontational atheists mean when they talk about religion being a special untouchable category in US culture.

I feel like there is already precedent for certain kinds of exceptions. The hiring and firing of clergy is already exempt from certain federal laws (otherwise there would be no way to keep women from being priests, for example.) So I say, if both the employees and the service provision are subject to religious qualifications, and if no public money is being provided, then go ahead, exempt whatever you want from your insurance. So if all you are is a religious institution, then you get to run your shop how you like. But as soon as you start providing public services, and hiring people based on secular qualifications, subject to all anti-discrimination laws, and especially if you accept public money (like Medicaid or Medicare) then shut your mouth about having to follow the same laws as anybody else.

[cjmr]

Unless the federal law does it differently than the Massachusetts law that it was loosely based on, minor daughters are *not* necessarily covered for contraceptives or pre-natal care under their parents' policy(ies). 'Adequate coverage*' here doesn't include that. When we moved here last year there was someone suing their employer because their policy didn't.

*That is to say, a policy that meets the requirements such that neither employer nor employee has to pay the lack-of-insurance 'fine'

[Mmy]

@burgundy: This is the kind of thing the more confrontational atheists mean when they talk about religion being a special untouchable category in US culture.

And for some of us non-USAians the special untouchable category seems to be "for profit health insurance."

This isn't meant as a derail but it is amazing how many of these problems go away if you are not dependent on employers for your health insurance.

Thinking.....we still have parallel Catholic boards of education in Ontario (and that is a massive can of worms that will have to be dealt with some day) -- but the single payer which pays for the health care of residents of Ontario is OHIP (the Ontario Health Insurance Plan) which one doesn't pay premiums into and which doesn't care what religion (or non-religion) one happens to be.

It removes much of the power of religious organizations when one removes their power as the "gate-keepers" to social welfare and health care.

[burgundy]

@Mmy, that's a fair point, and can be extended to other types of care provision. Basically the whole charity model. I remember when Catholic Charities made a fuss about being required to consider same-sex couples as adoptive parents, and they were like, "We'll just take our balls and go home, then!" and not handle adoptions at all.

The vast majority of successful non-profits receive some level of government funding. If you take the public's money, you abide by the public's rules. The alternative is cutting out the pass-throughs and having the government handle these services directly, which I personally would be very happy with, but you will probably not be surprised to hear that I consider myself rather a minority in this country.

[burgundy]

Going back to the original topic a little bit...

I just picked up my Return to Work authorization form from my doctor. The plan is to start back at work on Monday. I was out for two weeks right after Christmas, was back at work for a week, and have been out entirely since January 18. I'm starting to freak out a little about going back (while at the same time knowing that feeling anxious is not a reliable indicator that I'm not ready to go back yet.) I will also be much, much less active on-line (since I have basically zero access while I'm at work.)

Any good thoughts or encouragement that people want to provide would not go amiss. And if anyone can sincerely say that they'll miss me being around so much, that would be nice too. (I am being very stern in my self-talk and telling myself that I am not pathetic for making such a request, no really, shut up internal critic voice.)

[jemand]

Internet hug if you want one burgundy....

I regularly have freak outs regarding work too, mostly just that I like it and like to be here and am afraid I'm letting other people down. Anxiety just can spiral in that case to frustrating and scary levels.

I don't know your specific circumstances, but I hope things go well!

[Mmy]

@burgundy:

hugs

And yes, you will definitely be missed.

One of my old profs always argued that you knew you were in trouble (or about to do a bad job) when you didn't feel a little anxious.

And finally, I think there are people who read/follow the 'verse on their smartphones. Anyone know anything about that?

[kisekileia]

I agree with "if you take the government's money, you follow the government's rules". Religious freedom is important, but other people's rights not to be hurt should take precedence. I think the U.S. places far too much value on religious freedom at the expense of people who are hurt by certain religious doctrines (e.g. ones about not giving kids or women adequate health care).

@burgundy, I have really enjoyed having you around, and I'll be sorry to see less of you.

[Sixwing]

@burgundy, I'll definitely miss you. I've really enjoyed your commentary in the past several weeks. *offers hugs*

Yes, yes please, can we have those who take government money abide by ALL the government's rules?

That would mean a lot more government focus on ebily ebil secular charities and a lot less on religious ones, but I honestly don't think that's likely to be a problem, and the people who are willing to help "everyone but THOSE people" can either change their ways or help everyone.

/idealist

[Ross]

So, i do not like this compromise because I do not like the entire concept of "We will sell out 50% of the population in order to placate a small group of old men," but I do like that it seems to end with women getting birth control all the same. Not that I expect it to silence the complainers.

But, and I should really have been disabused of this by now, I always think it should be helpful to address the specific things that people like the bishops are actually saying, because it forces them to approach saying what they actually mean. When we say "women still get birth control and you do not have to pay for it," and they come back and insist that their religious freedoms are still being infringed, it forces them toward admitting that no, it's not really about the money; what they want is to be able to strongarm women into abiding by their opressive rules. Because I want very badly to believe that if the catholics would come out and say "It's not about the money, we just want to control women's sexuality," and the republicans admit "It's not about helping all americans, we just want to make the rich richer and the poor poorer," and the homophobes admit "It's not about TEH CHILDRENZ, we just find the thought of anal sex icky," and the islamophobes admit "It's not about security, we just hate people with skin that color," then either democracy would wise up and stop giving these people power, or they would nod and say "Yeah. I agree with that," in which case civilization deserves the collapse it's heading for.

[Froborr]

So... one of my Facebook friends* made a very lengthy post about how the Catholic birth control insurance thing is too about religious freedom, so even though the Church is wrong to do this it's even more wrong for the government to interfere blah blah blah, and I have been mulling my response for a couple of days. I think this is what I am going to go with:

"Religious freedom does not give a religious institution the right to force their doctrines on employees at a secular facility the religious institution happens to own. In fact, that's precisely the opposite of religious freedom."

Thoughts?

*And by "friend" I mean "Guy I used to pick on in high school who I apologized to at the 10-year reunion, and then he inexplicably friended me on Facebook, and I keep him friended because his posts give me a glimpse of how someone could be neither pathological nor a terrible person, and yet somehow still be conservative."

[Ross]

@Froborr: These days, I just say "If the churches want representation, they ought to be subject to taxation."

[jemand]

@Froborr, someone in my google circles posted on a shared article of mine to the same sorts of things, although he's an atheist, he was all, well, I agree they're wrong and ridiculous (he's kind of an abrasive, atheist, too), but we can't infringe on religious freedom! And this is TOTALLY not sexism!

Gah. Then I mentioned how work compensation is work compensation and we did away with company stores for a reason, and why do we *really* want our employers to be getting receipts for some of what we buy? Privacy?

So he jumps on my money point, "fungibility of money, now THAT is something I REALLY find interesting! I'll be back to talk about that after I finish studying for my test!" << paraphrase.

So. I do a private facepalm. It's all an academic debate to him, it's all stuff that doesn't touch him, he doesn't even get that interested, but mention money and he has found something he really wants to talk about!! Rights of half the population? Minor point of almost no interest. Easily outweighed by some academic religious rules.

(sorry. This was kind of a rambling rant. But I run into this attitude relatively commonly.)

[Froborr]

This is why I regard idealists with automatic suspicion. Ideals are all well and good, but they are ultimately abstractions, and must come second to the real pain of real people.

[AnaMardoll]

But, and I should really have been disabused of this by now, I always think it should be helpful to address the specific things that people like the bishops are actually saying, because it forces them to approach saying what they actually mean.

Except -- and I realize you realize this -- it doesn't WORK that way. And us 50% get thrown under the bus. *sigh*

[Amaryllis]

Mmy: And for some of us non-USAians the special untouchable category seems to be "for profit health insurance."

This isn't meant as a derail but it is amazing how many of these problems go away if you are not dependent on employers for your health insurance.
Amen and amen. Er, so to speak.

@burgundy: good luck with with the job! My own internet access at work is spotty, some days are better than others, so I sympathize. We'll be glad to hear from you whenever you have time.

And in the meantime, in the other room spouse has some kind of news/talk show on, and someone just referred to the "morning-after pill" as, you guessed it, an "abortifacient." GRRRR.

(Also, I am glad to note that Firefox doesn't consider "abortifacient" to be an actual word.)

[AnaMardoll]

Oh! And I will miss Burgundy too. I meant to say that earlier, but I had a brain blip.

[kisekileia]

I have a cousin who is an engineer, but also very adept with language. She is fairly fluent in French, took a significant number of religious studies courses in her undergrad degree, taught science and math at a school in Mozambique for a year, and has done coursework towards a master's in theology. I tend to picture Ana as looking quite a bit like this cousin, especially since the two have quite similar personalities.

[burgundy]

Thanks, you guys! That was all very sweet to hear.

I just got back from hanging out with a couple of very good work friends, and it sounds like my timing has been perfect: I missed the incredibly stressful but almost pointless stuff they've been doing the last few weeks (which culminated today), and I'll be coming back just in time to help out on a high-profile project that I'm interested in, using skills that are pretty much unique to me in the office, and that I love to use (GIS maps, baby!). They were freaking out and trying to figure out ways to find someone else who could do this stuff, and now I get to swoop in and save the day. Awesome!

But I will miss being able to check in here. We have a very strict internet use policy (as in, I can't even do this kind of thing on my work computer during my lunch break), and I not only don't have a smart phone, I have one of the dumbest phones still in use (it has a pull-out antenna.)

But I'll still be coming by in the evenings! And in the mornings before work, if I have time (or poor impulse control.)

[Froborr]

Yay, we will still have burgundy!

[Literata]

On general principle, may I propose a hug fest for all who want to join, and good wishes for everyone?

[Froborr]

I just made the outline and slides for our Madoka panel. Topics include thermodynamics, Goethe's Faust, despair, the original version of The Little Mermaid, and, well, Madoka, which is basically a cross between Sailor Moon and Those Who Walk Away from Omelas.

I can *definitely* use a hug fest.

[kisekileia]

One of my favourite bloggers just moved over to FreeThought Blogs. After what's happened here in the last month, I am extremely disappointed by this. She's a lovely person and, based on what I've seen from the FreeThought commenters who've visited here, is way too good for that site.

[Madhabmatics]

@Kisekileia

The comments section at FreeThought Blogs isn't actually as bad as it was here because PZ Myers actually bans for anti-woman stuff there - we just happened to get the lurkers who can't post that crap there, and they saw an opportunity to do it to us.

[kisekileia]

Ah, okay. That's reassuring.

[kisekileia]

Only a little bit, though. I have a feeling he doesn't ban for anti-theist or deliberately triggering stuff.

[Lorien]

@Froborr, you are my favourite person right now. I adore Madoka very very very much but it also made me cryyyy so. *hugs* Also that sounds horrible. And yet awesome. Gonna put vids up of those like you did with the Evangelion stuff?

[Froborr]

@Lorien: Yep! I actually still owe a couple of vids from the last con, but I probably will not be able to get to them until March, maybe April. The videos from these two cons will probably take similar time to get up.

I think Madoka is a series I will be talking and thinking about for a *long* time. I am going to try to keep doing panels on this, and keep refining it. For less than five hours of content, there is a *lot* packed into this little series.

Speaking of which, does anyone know of a public-domain translation of Goethe's Faust Part Two into English? I cannot find one *anywhere,* so I am forced to use secondary sources to talk about Madoka's heavy referencing of it. I hate using secondary sources for this sort of thing.

[Mmy]

@Froborr: The Online Library of Liberty has a public domain translation of Goethe’s Works, illustrated by the best German artists, 5 vols. (Philadelphia: G. Barrie, 1885).

This includes Faust part 1 and 2 (in Volume number 2). You can read it online or download it as a facsimile pdf (of the 1885 text) or as an e-book.

[Anonymous]

I've been thinking about the surprise attack on female reproductive rights in my own country and I think I've finally made sense of it. It's not about religion here; we're a secular nation, and over 50% don't believe in God and only about 20% or so are actively religious. It's about nationalism here, and racism, about the right kind of people not having enough babies, about a slow decline in population and birth rates which gets whipped up into a rhetoric about a once great nation diminishing, dwindling away to nothing. People are not having 'enough' children because they can't afford to feed them, and they want to make it harder for people to not have children. Religious rhetoric about the soul attaching the embryo at conception doesn't come into it here.

The end result is the same, though.

[jemand]

Yay! Hugfest!

And the different bloggers at freethoughtblogs can and do maintain their own comment policy. Myers is one of the less safe spaces, but even he still bans eventually in some cases, Greta Christina will issue warnings and bans to people who are on her side but who engage in personal attacks on other commenters. Though once again, her comments are far from the safe space that is here.

Love Joy Feminism has an even more strict commenting policy and I don't think that's going to change. And most of the community there is already used to different comment policies and being respectful of the main blogger by following them...

Back during "Elevatorgate" I was astonished by the number of trolls and breathtaking misogynists who emerged from the woodwork on various prominent atheist blogs and caused a storm everywhere until they were finally shouted down and banned... I think they may have been just laying in wait and were a lot of the people who came over here though :(

[Froborr]

@Mmy: Thank you thank you thank you! After I realized Project Gutenberg did not have it, and googling turned up nothing, I was ready to despair... *bookmarks Library of Liberty for future exploration, as well*