"Hello, Mother; Hello Father": Gendered Language and the Family

A gender binary does not accurately describe the world I live in, and certainly not a world I want to live in. I commonly encounter people whose gender I cannot define, and instead of feeling threatened or anxious about the uncertainty, I feel liberated by the diversity.

I want our common humanity to bring us together. But I don't want to erase differences, I want to celebrate them. I want a world where we are all free to be 'out' about whatever gender we feel ourselves to be.

A person who identifies themselves as some form of nonbinary, like genderqueer, though, may have trouble defining how they relate to others, simply because there are not enough gender-neutral words in English. Here are options I have thought of:

• Instead of sister or brother, I can say sibling.
• Instead of daughter or son, I can say child.
• Instead of goddaughter or godson, I can say godchild.
• Instead of mother/grandmother/godmother or father/grandfather/godfather, I can say parent/grandparent/godparent.
• Instead of forefather or foremother, I can say ancestor.
• Instead of wife or husband, I can say spouse or partner.
• Instead of girlfriend or boyfriend, I can say friend, lover, or significant other.

I've been using the word atriarch, to replace matriarch or patriarch.

In English, cousin is gender-neutral.

But what can I use in place of aunt or uncle? Niece or nephew?

'Social status' of adults is referred to by Mr. for men, and Mrs., Miss, or Ms. for women (depending on if they wish to announce their marital status, or not). But what can we use that is nongendered? I've seen Mx, which I think is pronounced 'mix'.

Hanne Blank's fascinating book, Straight: The Surprisingly Short History of Heterosexuality, points out that both of the adjectives heterosexual and homosexual refer not to who someone is intrinsically, but who their partner is. But both terms assume that there is a gender binary. What if your partner is genderqueer? Or intersex? What if you both are different flavors of nonbinary genders?

Are there other relationship words that I've missed?

What do you think?

--Laiima

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Comments

[Leum]

The terms "homosexual" and "heterosexual" really break down when it comes to pre-transition trans* people. Will someone who IDs as gay or lesbian be attracted to a pre-transition trans* man or woman? What about straight men or women? Is our attraction to the physical presentation of gender and sex, or to the numinous quality of gender and sex? For me it's almost entirely presentation, but I have a friend who says it's all about the mental state of the person in question for him.

And all of that ignores romantic orientation, and the possibility of coming to be sexually attracted to someone who's technically of the "wrong" gender because you've formed an emotional attachment to them.

[Froborr]

But what can I use in place of aunt or uncle? Niece or nephew?

Your great-grandparent is your aunt/uncle's grandparent, which makes you first cousins, once removed. However, your great-great grandparent is also their great-grandparent, which makes you second cousins, once removed. And so on.

Hence you are nth cousins, once removed, where n is the set of all positive integers. The cousin relationship is reciprocal, so you can refer to all four relationships that way.

Is our attraction to the physical presentation of gender and sex, or to the numinous quality of gender and sex?

Thank you for asking this question, because it clears up something I've always been very confused about: the difference between the gender binary and gender norms on the one hand, and gender-as-a-component-of-identity on the other. If the latter is numinous, then I can stop being confused--of course it's invisible to me, and I don't need to worry I'm missing something.

[Laiima]

@Froborr, I have personal positive associations with the word 'cousin' so I often use it with people of any 'distant' relationship, *plus* people I'm actually cousins with. But aunt and uncle and niece and nephew seem, to me, to be 'closer' than 'cousin', esp since I use cousin so widely.

The questions about aunt and uncle, niece and nephew were actually issues that I've been struggling with. I am known to my 3 nieces as Aunt Laiima (and Spouse is known to them as Uncle Spouse'sFirstName). But I think I'm genderqueer, so neither aunt nor uncle fits very well.

Most of my own aunts and uncles are dead, or elderly, so I don't necessarily intend to 'come out' to them. But if I wanted to, what could I say about what I should be called, in relation to them?

[MercuryBlue]

I've seen 'nibling' used for 'niece or nephew'.

I prefer 'androsexual' and 'gynosexual' to 'heterosexual' and 'homosexual', but, one, ain't nobody knows what they mean without having to puzzle it out from root words, and two, still binaried, and three, androsexual folk aren't privileged over gynosexual folk or vice versa that I know of, and heterosexual folk are definitely privileged over homosexual folk.

Dammit another book on my reading list.

[Laiima]

@Mercury Blue, I like 'nibling' - thanks!

[Froborr]

@Laiima: What if you asked them to just call you Laiima? My nephew calls my fiancee and I just Viga and Jed (though my niece (child of a different sibling) calls us Aunt Viga and Uncle Jed.)

I think the issue is not that "heterosexual" and "homosexual" are necessarily wrong as that they are both overbroad individually, and together fail to cover all the possibilities. In other words, instead of two broad terms that cover a lot, but nowhere near all, of the range of human sexualities, we need lots of narrow terms that together do cover the whole range. I think more narrowly defined, "heterosexual" and "homosexual" would have a place in those fields.

But it is really complicated, especially because it doesn't quite line up with gender presentation. Gender presentation is primarily about what gender the presenter thinks they're presenting, but sexual orientation is primarily about what gender the *observer* thinks they're presenting. In other words, if you present as masculine, but I think you're presenting as feminine, and find you attractive, I can still reasonably claim that as evidence I'm attracted to people who present as feminine.

Which of course wraps me around to my confusion about the distinction between gender norms and gender... if gender norms didn't exist, how would I be able to tell what gender someone was?

[L33tminion]

> I've been using the word atriarch, to replace matriarch or patriarch.

Wouldn't "elder" or "ancestor" (depending on context) work well?

[Laiima]

@L33tminion, I suppose it could. 'Elder' could be anyone over a certain age, or whose a member of the oldest generation. 'Ancestor' usually implies someone whose dead, to my mind.

The context I was using it was living 'head of the family', which in my family has more often been a mother or grandmother.

@Froborr, I have a love-hate relationship with my 'real' first name, which is one of those + constructions. I wasn't named after my father, grandfather, or uncles. But somehow my parents couldn't find any pretty girl's names, or so-called unisex names for me. And both of my parents do actually like boys better than girls. So whether I'm going by Aunt RealFirstName or just RealFirstName, it's kind of oogy.

When I changed my surname 20 years ago (and slightly changed the spelling of RealFirstName), my mother refused to use my new last name for over a year. And since then, many people, including my father, have never bothered to learn how to spell my 'new' surname; others haven't bothered noticing the spelling change to RFN. So if I told my family of origin that I now wanted to be addressed as Laiima, I'm guessing they would just ignore it.

[Froborr]

When I changed my surname 20 years ago (and slightly changed the spelling of RealFirstName), my mother refused to use my new last name for over a year. And since then, many people, including my father, have never bothered to learn how to spell my 'new' surname; others haven't bothered noticing the spelling change to RFN. So if I told my family of origin that I now wanted to be addressed as Laiima, I'm guessing they would just ignore it.

@Laiima: Why do you bother with your family-of-origin, again?

But seriously, hugs if you want them. That's awful.

[groundedchuck]

But what can I use in place of aunt or uncle?

Friends of mine came up with "auncle" (pronounced kinda like "ankh-cull") for a relative who preferred not to identify as any gender.

Leum: For me it's almost entirely presentation, but I have a friend who says it's all about the mental state of the person in question for him.

I found a transgender friend significantly more attractive when she started presenting as female, but I have no idea if that's because I'm typically visually/physically attracted to women and not men, or just because she was so much happier and more comfortable with herself.

[Cor Aquilonis]

Speaking of this - I've been working in a small part-time job of data entry for a friend. Some of the data I enter is for an emergency contact for the client. Frequently they list a spouse. I've taken to putting in "Spouse" instead of "Husband" or "Wife". It seems more civilized; and I'm anticipating he arrival of same-sex marriage.

[Laiima]

@Froborr, thanks. I've actually cut off contact with my parents, and I rarely hear from anyone I'm related to. But I had been keeping minimal contact with my brother, because he is the father of two of my nieces. I had originally hoped that I could be a supportive but nonparental adult in their lives - it hasn't really worked out that way.

Btw, my earlier comment that read "one of those + constructions" should have read "male first name plus feminine diminutive ending constructions". Example: Paul+ine. That's why there was the stuff about NOT being named for my father, grandfathers, or uncles.

@groundedchuck, I was thinking about something like Zun, because both 'aunt' and 'uncle' include 'un', and I just think 'z' is cool. :) Maybe it needs a letter at the end?

@Cor Aquilonis, hapax and I both call our spouses 'Spouse', not 'Husband'.

The secondary meanings of 'husband' -- when it's a verb -- are so useful, and I want to use them all the time *for me*: I 'husbanded' our resources; I 'husbanded' my energy. I don't think 'wife' can be used as a verb, unless it's part of a compound like 'midwife'. Midwiving? Anyway, 'husband, the verb' has always seemed to me like something WIVES do, as part of managing their households. But the word that refers to men gets all the credit. That really pisses me off. That's actually partly why I stopped using 'husband' or 'wife'. I wanted some word that didn't have all that other baggage.

[Mmy]

I also use the 'mmyspouse' designation for my spouse.

And I noticed that now most educators (in the parts of US and Canada I am familiar with) use the word 'student' rather than words such as 'son,' 'daughter' or any other word that designates gender or familial relationship.

[Froborr]

@Mmy: I'm confused. Do you mean educators use "student" rather than "son" or "daughter" for their own children? Or for their students? I'm assuming you probably mean something else entirely, since neither of those make much sense, but I can't think of what that something else would be..?

[MercuryBlue]

Froborr: I believe it's the educator talking to the parent/guardian of the student.

[Mmy]

@Froborr: Sorry that was hard to follow -- I was trying to post while watching SpaceX's landing.

Yes -- as an educator you never to talk to someone about their son or daughter or whatever -- you always refer to their "student" -- which means that it makes no difference, linguistically, what the gender of the student in question is or what type of familial relationship the adult/student have.

This is so trained into one if one is doing admission/advising that one (or at least I) finds oneself speaking the same way non educational circumstances -- I have found myself talking to neighbours and referring to their children as "students."

[hapax]

The secondary meanings of 'husband' -- when it's a verb -- are so useful

That's why I love the word "spouse" -- its root meaning lies in the verb for "promise".

[Froborr]

Ah, okay, that makes sense. Should have seen that from the start.

Still strikes me as a little odd, because it seems like it implies the parents are doing the teaching, but I can definitely see how it's preferable to gendered terms or terms that assume a relationship that might not exist.

Do you by any chance know when this became standard? Because I am pretty sure at least when I was in HS they still said "your child," at least where I was going to school.

[storiteller]

That's why I love the word "spouse" -- its root meaning lies in the verb for "promise".

I didn't know that! Really quite lovely.

[Froborr]

For me, "spouse" is in a class of words I call Pulchritudes: words that sound ugly but mean something nice, like, well, "pulchritude." I mean you've got a plosive, that awful "ow" vowel, and a hiss, all in one syllable? Yick.

Although... huh. I was just looking "pulchritude" up and apparently the "ch" is pronounced like a "k"? That makes it... slightly less ugly and therefore a slightly less perfect example. But still.

[Mmy]

@Froborr: I don't know when it started (although I don't remember people doing so 15 years ago -- I would guess it became fairly common in the last decade.)

When I first heard people using 'student' that way it did sound strange however I suspect the reason it became so commonly used was that educators were desperate for a word that not only wasn't gendered but, more importantly in many cases, did not require one to ask questions about other people's familial relationships. As a professor I didn't want to know (didn't think it was generally any of my business) if the adults/guardians were married, divorced or partners in a state that did not allow same sex marriage nor did it allow the partners in same sex relationships to both adopt.

[Will Wildman]

That's why I love the word "spouse" -- its root meaning lies in the verb for "promise".

I never used to care for 'spouse', but your enthusiasm for the term has won me over more and more. Every time it comes up, I remember you talking about its euphony - something about it being cozy and snuggly and fun, house, mouse, spouse. This is a delightful etymological cherry on top.

---

As to the issue of the OP, I started searching other languages and was vexed to find that every last one I encountered (Spanish, Greek, Italian, Japanese, Chinese, Finnish, it went on) had gender-distinct and sometimes matri/patrilineated terms for aunt and uncle, until someone brought up exactly the language we might expect to have the solution: Esperanto. (I knew it would come in handy some day.)

Aunt: Onklino
Uncle: Onklo
Aunt or uncle: Geonklo

It's up to individual taste whether one likes the sound of it, and whether it's something you'd want to try to get your family to use, but it is not impossible that it's the only defined gender-neutral word for sibling-of-parent in the world. (I would be happy to be educated more if I were wrong about this.)

[Silver Adept]

I find the word in English used to refer to nonfamilial relations is "relative", which has no gender, but can be a bit vague when trying to talk about a specific relative. I might suggest R. Laiima as a workaround, but anyone familiar with Asimov understands the immediate problem with such a construction.

Going in the other direction, with children of relatives, it can be both informative and gender-neutral to say sibling's-child, substituting a name if more precision is needed.

Not sure what to do about general people, aside from Doctor, as Master and Bachelor are gendered.

[Sixwing]

I do like "niebling" for niece/nephew. (My spell checker, on the other hand, does not.)

@Will Wildman, I cannot decide if I like Geonklo or not. Must chew on this, but it's delightful to know that such a word does in fact exist.

I don't know how to apply an honorific (Mrs., Mr. etc.) that isn't gendered in English. In Japanese, it is shockingly easy - the most common honorific, "-san," is nonspecific. Historically it gets used more for men than for women, though, and it's not useful outside of Japanese-speaking communities. And oh my, the potential for issues of appropriation there. It really irritates me to hear random white USan kids using -san or -kun (or -sama if you really want to see me pin my ears) on everyone, regardless of the appropriateness of the title. I usually only see it at cons and $my_little_town doesn't have much of an anime fan community, so I don't even know if that is common any more.

[Silver Adept]

Also, on reread, I note that using degree titles is exclusionary to those without degrees. Bad me.

@Sixwing - not as bad as it was when anime/manga first exploded onto the scene. Now that it's not The Novelty, the people who are still here have taken some care to understand their honorifics.

[Mmy]

@Silver Adept: I note that using degree titles is exclusionary to those without degrees. Bad me.

Well, all credential/id titles are exclusionary but to me that isn't an issue as long as the title is used only when it gives necessary information (you want your surgeon to have the credentials, your dentist, etc.) although there is a good argument that the requisite credential need not be included constantly in the name of the person. I am amused at medical doctors who want to be called "doctor" when they are buying groceries and talking over the fence with neighbours.

On the other hand many credentialed women have discovered that their gender somehow trumps their credentials -- as in the case of students who refer to their female professors as 'Mrs.' and their male professors as 'Dr.' -- I mentioned before on the board that I (and other women) have run into students who refused to call us Doctor or Professor and insisted on naming us Mrs. or Miss. I guess that behaviour is slightly less offensive than the students who insist on calling male (un phd'd) grad students "DOCTOR" and routinely address all female professors by their first names.

Outside of my academic/research environment I wouldn't expect someone to call me by an honorific but if they insist on doing so I expect them to use the title that I earned and which I have indicated is the one I prefer.

[Lonespark]

Hmmmm.
Thai has some system of honorifics that sounds a bit like what you are talking about, Sixwing. They go in front of the name, and when I was trying to learn about it there were a lot of distinctions based on relative age and status. I wonder if/how that has shifted? I got away with not understanding because I was foreign and six years old, plus I only needed to use the ones for teachers and occasionally older or younger friends or siblings.

[hapax]

On the other hand many credentialed women have discovered that their gender somehow trumps their credentials

Not to mention the many women who discovered that they have somehow lost their identity by the act of giving birth; doctors, teachers, neighbors, co-workers, all suddenly decide that it is jolly good sport to address adult women as "Bobby / Susie's Mom."

I have yet to hear men in similar positions diminished to "Bobby / Susie's Dad." If I am wrong, I imagine they don't much like it either.

[Laiima]

@mmy, @hapax, not quite the same thing, but when I was in grade school and high school, I was frequently known as Brother1'sSister, Brother2'sSister, or Sister of MySister. That wouldn't have bothered me so much except that I was the oldest kid in my family. I guess my own identity wasn't noteworthy enough. :-/

[Mike Timonin]

I have yet to hear men in similar positions diminished to "Bobby / Susie's Dad." If I am wrong, I imagine they don't much like it either.

I get that once in a while, because I am the stay-at-home parent, plus we homeschool, so I'm often out with Kid 1 (and Kid 2, but she's only 16 mo, so not really schooling so much) and a gaggle of other kids and their parental units (almost universally female). I am sometimes presented as a "mommy by proxy". I actually don't mind either designation overly much - but perhaps I would if it were routine, or were I suddenly to become "Mr. Wife'slastname."

[Laiima]

When Spouse gets called Mr MyLastName by people who don't realize we have different last names, he is always very quick to correct them.

Of course, anyone who calls me by Spouse's Last Name gets a major stinkeye, and then I correct them immediately. So maybe that's not a gendered thing per se.

[Ross]

I have yet to hear men in similar positions diminished to "Bobby / Susie's Dad." If I am wrong, I imagine they don't much like it either.

There are people who call me "Dylan's Dad". I rather like it. But I've only been at this parenting thing for about six months, and imagine I will tire of it eventually.

There is a guy at work who consistently calls me "Mr. Ross", and other people have started doing it as well. That makes me want to defenestrate someone, for reasons I have never been able to adequately explain (He does the "Mr. FirstName" to everyone, but for some reason, it seems to be mostly me that it's stuck to.).

[Mike Timonin]

There is a guy at work who consistently calls me "Mr. Ross",

I get "Mr. Mike" sometimes, which is probably because my first name is easier to say than my last name. (On the other hand, my last name is much more satisfying. Imagine you are a student, mildly annoyed by the test questions I have just offered you - "Timooooniiin!" works almost as well as "Khaaaaaan!")

On the "parent of XXXX" designation - I think it depends on context as well. If my relationship with the person calling me Kid1's Dad is entirely through Kid1 - ie, if the person so calling me is also a kid - that's less of a thing, I think. If I found myself being introduced to potential professional colleagues as "Kid1's Dad", I might be annoyed. (Although, even then, context matters. If I had met the introducer and the person to whom I was being introduced through some kid related activity, then "This is Mike Timonin - you know, Kid1's dad," that might not be so awful. Provided I got to go back to Mr. Timonin [or, ultimately, consummation devoutly to be wished, etc, Dr. Timonin] afterwards.)

[Sixwing]

@Silver Adept, that's good to hear.
I don't get out to many cons, and the kids at the one I attend most commonly have taken to shouting random phrases in large groups instead of misusing honorifics. I'm not actually sure which one is more annoying.

@Lonespark, that's a cool question!

What I really loathe is being referred to as "Mrs. SpouseName LastName." I have my own name. Use it.

[Mike Timonin]

What I really loathe is being referred to as "Mrs. SpouseName LastName."

My wife's mother does this to her (on mail, not in person, that would be very odd), and it bugs the heck out of me. Also, as a historian, this style of designation makes it really hard to track down female figures in the historical record...

[Froborr]

What I really loathe is being referred to as "Mrs. SpouseName LastName."

People still do this!? In the circles I move in, this would be considered both highly offensive and *absurdly* archaic...

[Laiima]

An elderly aunt who just died always addressed mail to us as Mr & Mrs SpouseName LastName, even though I explicitly DID NOT TAKE SPOUSE'S LASTNAME. Drove me 'round the bend.

Tried to make allowances - she was born in 1925 -- but geez, my grandmother who was 12 years her senior could figure it out! Why can't you?!?

[Sixwing]

My in-laws always do it (every single letter) as do their entire generation of that side of the family. In quiet rebuttal, I write out the full names of everyone on the mail I send to them. So far, nobody's said anything and I doubt anyone ever will; disagreement is perceived as insult more often than not over there.

I can get down with archaic, but I do find it to be highly offensive to consider me an appendage to SixSpouse for lack of an appendage. *snort*

Laiima, that makes it even worse! I did change my name (because of Reasons) but if I hadn't, I think I'd be really burnt up about it.

[Froborr]

Man, this kind of conversation really makes me appreciate my family. Not that my family are saints by any means (HA!), but because my family doesn't consider being family carte blanche to be a jerk. If I don't like a family member, I am free to cut them off temporarily or permanently, and no one else in the family will bat an eye. It means people actually have to treat each other with respect.

The result is that my family consists of nine people who I genuinely like, out of the thirty or so living descendants of my grandparents. Of course there's still conflicts and annoyances and stuff, but never this kind of total disregard.

Of course the system's not flawless, because sometimes a relative you don't like lives with a relative you do, and then it gets hard to avoid them.

Also, sounds like the Mrs SpouseName phenomenon is mostly a letters thing? That would also explain it--nobody in my family uses snailmail anymore.

[Froborr]

Also, speaking of name changes: My fiancee and I were originally planning to both change our names to a portmanteau of our last names. However, she has decided she doesn't want to keep any trace of her family name after all. I'm really uncomfortable with the connotations of her taking my family's name, however, so I've been trying to think of something completely other to change our names to... and drawing a total blank. Any suggestions of good sources on this kind of problem? Most of my ideas have been either too fannish (while being the Who family would be pretty cool for a couple of years, I imagine it'd get pretty stale after a while--and what if we had a kid who got a doctorate?) or just unimaginative and lackluster (Newfam, for instance).

[Laiima]

@Froborr, have you considered creating an entirely new name, in some other language, that is personally meaningful to both of you?

That's what I did 20 years ago with my surname. I didn't want the meaning(s) to be transparent to other people, which means I am both seen and unseen at the same time. It worked out that the most fitting possibility was of Irish derivation, which half of my ancestry is, but I did try other languages that I wasn't personally connected with.

It's not even that difficult of a process. Start looking through a 2-way foreign-language dictionary for words or ideas that really resonate for you. Then try combining them. Also keep in mind how people are likely to (try to) pronounce them. I picked a pronunciation that isn't completely correct, but it does sound pleasing.

I was perhaps lucky in that the names my parents gave me upon birth were both unusual enough that I had to always spell them out. And I still have to.

I once knew someone who was trying for something like my approach, but she went about it differently. She was also a Pagan, so she might have been worried about what her words combined in English would look like to non-Pagans (too fluffy Pagan? too weird?). The images she wanted were "moon" + "rose", so she just spelled that 'ethnically'. I think it came out to "Munroz", which looks vaguely Hispanic.

[Froborr]

Hmm... that is actually an excellent idea. Plus we're already a biracial couple planning to someday adopt a child of a third ethnicity (don't care which, as long as it's neither of ours). It would make sense to pick a name from a fourth ethnicity.

[Dash]

May I add a small nitpick? Strictly speaking, "Mrs." doesn't indicate a woman's marital status: it only means that she is using the last name of one of her husbands as her own. (OK, forgive me. I kind of enjoy the shocked look on my students' faces when I explain it in those terms.) Helen Hayes was "Miss Hayes" on stage and "Mrs. MacArthur" in private life. On the other hand, "Mrs. Green" is currently married to Mr. Brown but using a previous husband's last name. So one doesn't get "Mrs." just for being married, and, back when "Miss" was used, one didn't necessarily stop using it when one married. (Does anyone still use "Miss" for adult women?)

What I really loathe is being referred to as "Mrs. SpouseName LastName."

OK, done nitpicking--now I'm just rambling on, in my own inimitable fashion. Feel free to wander off and do something productive.

I think there are people who regard "Mrs. Herfirstname Hislastname" as the form used when the couple is divorced but she's still using his last name. That has probably gone by the boards (at least I hope so!), but some people probably still use the rule.

Finally, about medical doctors using "doctor" outside of medical contexts: there may be reasons for that. If you need a doctor, you need one right away. I know of a case where a Ph.D. used the title "doctor" when booking plane reservations and, mid-flight, one of the flight attendants came up to him and whispered that a passenger was having severe abdominal pains and could he come back and take a look.

[hapax]

(Does anyone still use "Miss" for adult women?)

We shore do heah in the South, ma'am. Of course, it's "Miss Firstname" and a title of matriarchal respect.

(And yes, I do hear men referred to as "Mr Firstname" under similar circumstances, but not nearly as often.)

[kisekileia]

I used "Miss" for myself in my late teens and early 20s, but now in my late 20s strongly prefer Ms.

[Ross]

I realize this is probably the wrong place to be on the issue, but I am really looking forward to the first time I have occasion to address a formal invitation to "Mr. and Mr. SomeonesName SomeonesLastname"

I find it pretty well unforgivable when someone insists on ignoring the mode of address someone else has asked for. Even the most old-fashioned, pre-feminist, patriarchical guides to style and manners will say this: The rules, whatever they are, are the *default*. When you actually know that someone has a different preference, you use that.

(Related: Quite often, I notice that people will write in to whoever the local publication's manners columnist is, asking a question that boils down to "How can I abuse this person while staying on the technically permissable side of manners?", acting from the assumption that old-fashioned politeness is a sort of ritualized dance wherein you can be as much of an asshole as you like, and so long as you perform the dance properly, no one can say anything about it. It amazes me that people do this, not because I expect better of people, but because you only have to read Dear Abbey for about three weeks before you'll see that she never sides with the person who is looking to be abusive, because, as it turns out, there is no polite way to be an asshole.)

The only time I can offhand recall addressing someone as "Mrs. HisFirstName Lastname" was how I had my grandmother listed in the program for my wedding, and only because I knew she'd approve.

[storiteller]

What I really loathe is being referred to as "Mrs. SpouseName LastName.

Oh my goodness, same here. I was just at a wedding this weekend where they had the table name cards like that and I wanted to throw it across the room. The first words out of my mouth to my husband after picking it up were, "I hate when they say Mrs. HusbandFirstName LastName." My mother-in-law actually said she had difficulty finding her and my father-in-law's namecard because she was (rightly) looking for her own name to be on it. My sister-in-law had her entire name written out because she's not married, but was offended for us.

In this case, I suspect the bride was just not thinking through what others would prefer to be called. She dated the guy she married for about a decade and had been probably writing "Mrs. HisFirstName LastName" on her notebooks since high school. I noticed that the officiant was extremely careful to emphasize equality and gender neutrality in her entire speech, except when she announced them as "Mr. and Mrs. HusbandFirstName Last Name." I can't imagine any reason why she would do that except if the bride requested it. As the bride wanted to be called that, it probably just didn't occur to her that it's offensive to other women.

[Samantha C.]

In applying for jobs, I have desperately wanted a gender-neutral title. If I'm sending an email to "hire at companyname" I'll use a "dear Sir or Madame", but it sounds so formal and stilted to my ears. When I get to send emails to "Brian.lastname" or "Marysue.lastname" I can use Mr. or Ms. But if I'm sending an email to "J Lastname", I'm stuck with Sir or Madame and unable to personalize my letter to the addressee.

[MercuryBlue]

Speaking of jobs, we get a lot of letters addressed to Dear Sirs. As though it is utterly unthinkable that anyone working for the goddamn state government (where the people working my shift in my division are 20% male) might desire to be addressed by anything other than Sir.

[Mmy]

I had a battle with the alumni association of the university from which I got my MA. The alumni magazine was sent to my office (where I was at the time department chair) and addressed to Mrs. Lastname. I checked online to make sure that they had updated my records and yup, they had me listed as a) having a Ph.D., and b) currently a professor. I called and requested that they address my mail as either Dr. or Professor Lastname and was told that "since some women resent not being called Mrs. we always use Mrs.) They had no answer to my question "but what about the women who resent not being called Doctor or Professor?" They just kept on repeating the phrase "some women resent not being called Mrs." over and over again.

I asked around and found that they was a common problem. For example, one of my professors also held a doctorate in divinity and was a active minister. She had divorced and remarried (a man who had graduated from the same undergraduate institution) and kept using the lastname under which she had been ordained. Her undergraduate college, upon finding out she had married started sending mail to her house addressed to Reverand and Mrs. NewHusband'sLastname.

[Ross]

@mmy: I find it curious, ironic, and a little offputting (in a "Why can't they get their act together on this?" sort of way) that our alma mater addresses all their correspondence to my wife as "Ms. HerName HerMaidenName".

We got married *at their chapel*. I mean, c'mon, this is the *Catholics* -- *this* is where they're gonna start being all egalitarian?

[Mmy]

@Ross: You find it curious, ironic and offputting that people who find out that a woman has married you don't immediately, and without her permission, change the name by which they address her?

[Ross]

@mmy: I find it curious and ironic that having filled out paperwork in front of them that changed her name, after two years, and after having done the whole "It is urgent you contact us immediately so that we can verify your address" thing, they persist in failing to use her legal name when begging her for money.

[Mmy]

@Ross: We may be talking at cross purposes -- around here getting married (in any church) doesn't automatically change your name. In fact you have to file all sorts of paperwork in order to get your new id in your married name.* Did RossSpouse fill out paperwork to change hir name or did you both just assume that getting married would do it?

*In fact one of the reasons that many professional women do not use their married names is that their professional credentials are in their maiden names and it takes a lot of time and effort (and sometimes money) in order to get the names on the credentials changed.

[Laiima]

@mmy, Ross did write: "...having filled out paperwork in front of them that changed her name, after two years, ..."

so I think he has reason to think they might have updated their records to reflect his wife's new name.

@Ross, I had a lot of trouble getting my high school to change my name in their records when I legally changed it (not through marriage). Maybe schools are just conservative about 'changing names in the database'?

[Mmy]

@Laiima: That was why I asked if we were at cross purposes -- Ross/Spouse got married at the chapel there -- I was understanding the "paperwork" as the marriage certificate you sign at the end of the ceremony.

Either way -- it is a story of two women each having problems getting "them" to address them by their desired name. Do men ever run into that problem?

[Laiima]

@mmy, oops, I was reading that 'paperwork' as separate from the ceremony. (My wedding with Spouse was civil only, not religious, so I was making assumptions that probably were unjustified.)

Spelling-wise, if their name is difficult. Probably not otherwise. Men rarely change their names. (If they did it more often, maybe they'd understand how annoying it is when people refuse to call you what you want to be called.)

[Rebecca]

Interesting fact: "Mrs." as specific to married women (or whatever approximation of that state you would like to use) hasn't always been the case. In The Way of the World, for instance, which was in 1700, the plot is about marrying Mrs. Millamant and getting her away from her overbearing aunt!

[Froborr]

Either way -- it is a story of two women each having problems getting "them" to address them by their desired name. Do men ever run into that problem?

Yes. My middle name is a rather unusual name (in the English-speaking world) one letter off from a fairly common name. So, when I got my D.C. ID, they misspelled it as the common name. And when I pointed out to them the error on receiving the card, and that it did *not* match the spelling of my name on my birth certificate or passport, they shrugged it off as unimportant and told me I would have to pay for a new ID if I wanted it changed.

[hapax]

And when I pointed out to them the error on receiving the card, and that it did *not* match the spelling of my name on my birth certificate or passport, they shrugged it off as unimportant and

When I got my first passport, they misspelled my name. And not one of the tricky names, hard to spell, with lots of variants; no, this was the equivalent of misspelling "Susan" as "Busan".

So I wrote (this was back in the Dark Ages, when most correspondence was carried out with PRESSED DEAD TREES marked up by INK-SMEARED PUNCHES and you had to get SPIT on a STICKER to have your mail delivered) the State Department to have it fixed. Their response? "Well, be sure to carry your driver's license with you, too!"

[Froborr]

@hapax: *facepalm*

And then when the nice customs official takes you into the Special Questioning Room and wants to know why your IDs don't match, you're supposed to tell them... what, exactly?

My own ID thing, by the by, was pretty much the equivalent of having someone named Busan apply for an ID and then they issue it under the name Susan...

[Mike Timonin]

Either way -- it is a story of two women each having problems getting "them" to address them by their desired name. Do men ever run into that problem?

As suggested, only when someone somewhere has misspelled it. I'm trying to consolidate my student loans - really, I'm trying to convert the loan that Sallie Mae still holds into a Federal loan - and the site w/in the Federal Loan mushroom ring that I need to do that has spelled my last name Timowin. Which doesn't match my electronic signature, oddly enough. Every other mushroom in the ring has my name spelled correctly. The mushroom handler I spoke to suggested that my school had the name wrong in their records, which is untrue. So I'm banging my head on this.

But, yeah, otherwise, as a cis male, getting people to call me by my chosen name is really not that difficult. Mind you, people DO change their names for personal/religious reasons - have any male Slactivists changed either their first or last name and had trouble getting people to call them by it?

[hapax]

Well, adult men in our culture have one name problem that women *usually* don't.

A lot of men are named after their fathers or other male ancestors, and tend to be called by nicknames as a child. "Junior" or "Trey" or just a diminutive -- "William Jr." will be called "Billy".

Many men, upon reaching adulthood (especially after their fathers die) prefer to take on the "grown-up" version of their name. They find the diminutive or suffix to be infantilizing and diminishing of their own identity. "Please stop calling me Junior, call me Bill" they beg.

But while official documents don't care, that's a very hard habit for family and friends to break.

Or so my spouse *and* my father tell me.

[Froborr]

@hapax: I dunno, while women don't usually have "Junior" or similar, I can think of several women I know who have struggled to get people to stop using a diminutive they dislike: my sister, for example, used to go by [first syllable of name + "ee" sound], and now prefers either her full first name or just the first syllable, without the "ee" tacked on. It's *really hard* to remember that, and most of the family doesn't. I suspect my nephew (who does the same thing of first syllable plus "ee") will have the same problem in a couple of years when he hits his teens and decides the diminutive he's using is too kiddy. Or maybe not, I've encountered *one* adult who uses the same diminutive as him even in professional life.

A fun one: I have a friend (...ish? It's a long story...) named Ricky. Not Richard, his legal first name is Ricky, because his parents wanted to be absolutely certain no one would ever use the diminutive Dick. True story.

[kisekileia]

I have the diminutive problem Froborr mentioned. It would feel kind of weird if my family stopped calling me that, but a lot of my friends haven't switched yet, and I'd prefer if most of them did. I also keep getting people who I correspond with by email using the diminutive even when I have signed my emails with my full name, because one of my email addresses includes the diminutive.

[storiteller]

My sister-in-law is the opposite in terms of the use of the diminutive. All of her high school friends call her the diminutive, which her family never called her and I'm positive she doesn't use professionally. She said it's deeply weird if one of us calls her by that, even in conversation with her friends. Personally, it looks weird to me even though I've known her since we were both in high school because I've always known her in the context of her family.

[Mike Timonin]

My birth certificate says Michael, as do my credit cards and my driver's license, but I've felt like a Mike since the end of high school* - even my parents call me Mike now.

*obviously not enough to actually change my name legally or anything, but it would be deeply odd if a friend called me Michael rather than Mike.

[Laiima]

I *had* the diminutive problem Froborr mentioned. I quite liked the usage of it when it was limited to People I Had Specifically Invited To Call Me That. (To me, it was a special way to show emotional intimacy.)

Then I married into a family that doesn't use nicknames. So they introduced to people to as Diminutive, as if that were my preferred name for everybody. Boy, was that ugly and painful to straighten out. And my relationship with my in-laws never really recovered, to be honest.

@hapax, I've got a cousin who was named after his father. But the nicknames he was called as a child didn't reference him being #2. Usually he went by "FirstName MiddleName" while his father only went by FirstName; or he went by the Irish version of FirstName.

The first of my 2 brothers has the same first name as my father - a very common name, but my parents always intended to call Brother by his middle name - which is not common at all. He did have trouble in school getting teachers to call him MiddleName, not FirstName. As an adult, I think for all intents and purposes, he's dropped his first name. He's certainly more memorable as MiddleName LastName, although that's kind of a mixed bag too, as apparently there's a semi-famous criminal with the same name. Ah, Google, the things you turn up!

[Amaryllis]

my sister, for example, used to go by [first syllable of name + "ee" sound], and now prefers either her full first name
Yes, my sister tried that. It didn't work out too well for her either.

So when my daughter was born, we gave her a name that has a bunch of traditional nicknames, but we always called her by the full formal name with the idea that if she wanted to select a nickname to use among friends, she could. As it happened, she prefers the full name herself, but a lot of people don't wait to be asked and call her by a nickname chosen by them anyway. ???

Such is life.

[storiteller]

He did have trouble in school getting teachers to call him MiddleName, not FirstName.

I have a friend like that too. Both his first and middle name are common, but the first is much more common than the middle. He has everyone call him by his middle name, but frequently signs his name FirstInitial MiddleName LastName.